Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fenrir_Greyback 03-13-08, 01:24 PM	I've heard some bad things about the PrC, but every time I look at it I think "Whoa... Cool!" Is it really that bad? or is it just that nobody likes the idea of being a spell omnivore?
dman11235 03-13-08, 01:34 PM	It is that bad. As you level, you are 3 levels behind a full caster of each side, and you don't even get access to 9th level spells if you even out the casting. Also, taking that requires that you are MAD, and means you can't take any of the other great PrCs out there for spell casters.
M-bark 03-13-08, 01:41 PM	Well, there are upsides and downsides to consider. Let's assume you use Cleric and Sorcerer to get into it: Pro: - Both spellcasting gets better. - Will save will become really good. - Due to your Cha being above average probably because you want it to be good for your Arcane casting, you will be slightly good at turning as well. - You can cast divine spells in armour easily, and you can wear Full Plate. Cons: - You won't get 9th level spells unless you go epic. You could ask your DM if you could go Mystic Theurge beyond the 10th level. - You need both a good Wis and Cha score for casting. Lucky enough, they won't need to be uber high since you won't get 9th level spells before epic. - Your familiar will not get stronger and your turning won't get more powerful. - Arcane Spell Failure on armour sucks, though there are ways to reduce the ASF of Full Plate to 0%. All in all, I don't think it's all that bad, but you best go with the Wizard and Archivist classes. Both Int-based casters and they can learn more spells.
LSMFT 03-13-08, 01:58 PM	M-Bark's assessment was pretty good. Though, to be fair, I think a wizard-cleric is a more logical build. Going that route, you are a little MADer, but you can still get epic spells on at least one side. Same with the other option he mentioned, the wizard/archivist, which (with very little MAD) can have one side with ninth-level spells as well. Overall, I see that people who are looking for raw power from their casters are going to be disappointed. Having twice as many spells as the other guy is great but it pales when his spells are two-levels higher than yours. Those who are looking for a great deal of versatility find that the class has a lot to offer.
Fireclave 03-13-08, 02:02 PM	In short, unless you invoke the blessing of the early PRC entry cheese gods, yes it is. The problem is that Mystic Thurge puts you really behind in spell levels and caster level, which are the most important thing for a primary spellcaster. Take your typical set up for entry into the class: Wizard3/Cleric3/Mystic Thurge1. You cast as a 4th level wizard and cleric respectively. You do have a ton of spell slots, which is cool. But you are way behind full casters. Both the wizard and cleric are casting 5th level spells, while you're still casting 3rd. And it's the top tier spells that normally make the most difference. Additionally, you're caster level is lower, so you're spell don't have the impact they could have for your level and it's harder to beat SR. So you have a ton of spells that are subpar to a full caster's of equal level. And as dman11235 mentioned, Mad == bad. Lower spell DCs and such. And while you could take feats like Practiced Caster, Spell Penetration, and so on to try to close the gap. But a full caster could spend those same feats slots you use to catch up to make them even better casters. Not to mentioned at reaching the levels needed to actually become a mystic thurge can be very difficult, since you are effectively 1/2 a wizard or cleric until you do. At higher levels, where the difference in power between spell levels starts to become smaller (Ex: The difference in power between a 7th and 8th level spell is not as great as, say, a 2nd and 3rd level spell), or if you plan on going epic, Mystic Thurge can be worth. But it's a hard, long road to get to that point.
Amaril 03-13-08, 02:08 PM	What if one were to play a favored soul/sorcerer/mystic theurge? There would be no need for turning and Cha would be used for both arcane and divine. Also, wouldn't the practiced spellcaster feat facilitate the loss of caster level? I know it won't grant higher-level spells, but that's a pretty fair trade-off for spontaneous casting of both divine and arcane spells.
dman11235 03-13-08, 02:12 PM	The epic MT only progresses one caster at a time. Yeah, it sucks. If you fix it to advance both, then maybe. It would probably be like the Arcane Archer: bad if under level 20, really nice if over it. and with very little arcane casting comitment. Granted, MT is a (much) better option than wiz 10/cler 10. But it is not as good an option as wiz 20. Or wiz 3/Master Specialist (abjurer) 10/Initiate of the Sevenfold Viel 7, etc.
CryoSilver 03-13-08, 02:15 PM	What if one were to play a favored soul/sorcerer/mystic theurge? That's just trading one problem for another, because now you get your spells even later. You can't access MT with this build until level 9, and when you finish, you're only casting level 7 spells, with no way to even get level 8 spells pre-epic.
Amaril 03-13-08, 02:19 PM	That's just trading one problem for another, because now you get your spells even later. You can't access MT with this build until level 9, and when you finish, you're only casting level 7 spells, with no way to even get level 8 spells pre-epic. And what about an Archivist/Wizard/MT build?
toucanbuzz 03-13-08, 02:24 PM	Mystic theurge is rough but at high levels immensely useful and likely to never run out of spells. With the Wiz3/Cleric3/Mystic Theurge 14, you will only hit 9th level spells at level 20 while your friends will hit them at 17th. Plus, to be effective at this high level, you must have a 19 in both Wisdom and Intelligence. Going with a standard 28 point build, this is brutal on your other scores. It's noticeable at low levels but less so at higher levels, assuming you meet the criteria to cast all your spells. While a wizard might clear a room of orcs with a fireball spell, you're stuck with 2nd level spells. When you run into undead, your turning is useless. I've seen posts where it's call overpowered, but as you can see from the posts, not nearly so. Still, it's a lot better than individually taking wizard and cleric levels. You'll never ever run outta spells in an adventure with this PrC.
teshen 03-13-08, 03:13 PM	In short, unless you invoke the blessing of the early PRC entry cheese gods, yes it is. . . Agreed... and hail the cheese gods... for they make DMs uncomfortable that you and yours may giggle around the table. Seriously though, most dual caster prcs have features now... and that still doesn't make up for the fact that you're behind on casting. The more books you use, the stronger they get, but so do every other caster. Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Ur Priest 2/Mystic theurge 8 on an Illumian is pretty nifty. But do you have access to Ur Priest, are allowed to be evil, or want to be Illumian? A Spirit folk (bamboo) Wizard 3/Archivist 3/Mystic theurge 4/Arcane Hierophant 10 gets casting synergy and ninth levels spells... but again he's behind the curve the entire time... and does your dm allow spirit folk or arcane hierophant?
dman11235 03-13-08, 03:24 PM	At high levels you'll never run out of spells with straight either side either, so that benefit kind of trivialized. Also, you can't take MT past 10 until epic. So to even out casting it needs to be W5/C5/MT10, giving you just barely 8th level spells on each side, which you don't get for one of them until 20, the other 19 (assuming you enter ASAP). Also, getting a 19 in two stats by level 20 isn't hard. All you need is a 13 in each and two +6 items, which is chump change. Realistically, you'll have a 26 or so in each. Maybe more. W/ 28 PB, start with a 15 in each (8 points each leaves 12 points for con and dex and the other mental stat), put 3 points from levels in one, two in the other, buy a +5 and a +4 tome, the +5 for the +2 from levels, and two +6 items. That gets you a 28 in each stat. And is entirely affordable by that level. But you are missing out on some bonus spells from the guy with a 34 in their casting stat, some DC, some spells from class levels, so really you aren't even getting that many more spells per day, and higher level spells.
M-bark 03-13-08, 03:30 PM	Mystic theurge is rough but at high levels immensely useful and likely to never run out of spells. With the Wiz3/Cleric3/Mystic Theurge 14, you will only hit 9th level spells at level 20 while your friends will hit them at 17th. Plus, to be effective at this high level, you must have a 19 in both Wisdom and Intelligence. Going with a standard 28 point build, this is brutal on your other scores. Actually, you would get 9th level spells at level 23. You would be 3 levels behind on both divine and arcane spellcasting, but IMO that doesn't matter all that much. The higher level spells may be stronger and their spell slots allow for more metamagicked spells, but the lower level spells are the ones you'll mainly need because they are more versatile for less cost. Granted, True Resurrection and Wish are spells you'll really want access to at some point, but how many times will True Resurrection come to be of use? Not to mention that spamming Wish is far worse than spamming a Maximized Fireball (level 6) due to its cost. Sorcerer 3/Favoured Soul 3/ MT X (or you could replace Favoured Soul with the Shugenja) or Archivist 3/Wizard 3/MT X is the best way to go. The former if you want spontaneous casting, the latter if you want access to more spells (more versatility to make up for the lost higher-level spells!), more skill points due to the high Int you'll prolly be having, and the fact that you can get more and more spells through scribbling them into your prayer/spellbooks. And since there's a spellbookless wizard variant, you could perhaps also make a prayerbookless archivist variant. All in all, your MADness will be minimized (you'll want Dex, Con and Int or Cha), you won't be able to cast arcane spells in armour (but if you have really high Dex that won't matter, and otherwise you could get a +X Twilight Mithral Chainshirt for extra protection - including magical - with 0% ASF), and you will be a better caster than a Wizard 10/Archivist 10 or such. EDIT: Also, the fact that you can't take MT past level 10 is, IMHO, cowdung. With some other PrCs, I wouldn't do it, but as straightforward as the MT's abilities are, I would just allow them to go past 10 before epic.
Lotus Crane 03-13-08, 03:51 PM	Actually, you would get 9th level spells at level 23. Not necessarily true. With the "classic" cleric 3/wizard 3/MT 10/PrC X 4 setup, one typically assumes that after MT, you're going to focus on advancing at least one side to an effective 17th level (3+10+4), meaning 9th level spells by 20th character level. Trying to continue an even split progression after MT, ending with something like cleric 5/wizard 5/MT 10 (meaning only 8th level spells), is a silly newbie mistake. Sorcerer 3/Favoured Soul 3/ MT X (or you could replace Favoured Soul with the Shugenja) Except that it's impossible, and highlights the fact that you don't actually know much about spellcasters. Spontaneous full spellcasters, including the sorcerer, favored soul, and shugenja, all gain new spell levels at even-numbered levels, a full class level behind preparatory casters. You would have to be sorcerer 4/favored soul 4 or sorcerer 4/shugenja 4 to qualify for Mystic Theurge, which would make you 4 levels behind a single-classed caster, and it would literally be impossible to ever get 9th level spells pre-epic, even if you only focused on one side after MT. A sorcerer 4/favored soul 4/MT 10/PrC X would gain 9th level spells on one side at 22nd level; on both sides by 26th level.
dman11235 03-13-08, 03:58 PM	You don't spam wish. Wish is a catch-all last ditch emergency button. Same with Miracle, but not as much of a last minute thing (no xp cost). Besides, there is a way to deal infinite damage with wish: wish for quaterstaffs. Playing without cheese, just wish for logs. It's not infinite damage, but it's a lot of damage. But you don't spam it. You spam Maw of Chaos. You spam Orb of Fire MM'd up to 9th level with Arcane Thesis. You spam Scorching Ray MM'd to 9th with Arcane Thesis. You spam SoDs and SoLs. And personally, I'd rather have a maximized SR than a maxed fireball: FB is reflex half, and SR is a touch attack. FB is 60 damage, SR is 72. And for the same spell slot as the fireball, your SR can ignore energy resistance and deal half damage to those immune.
M-bark 03-13-08, 04:31 PM	Except that it's impossible, and highlights the fact that you don't actually know much about spellcasters. Spontaneous full spellcasters, including the sorcerer, favored soul, and shugenja, all gain new spell levels at even-numbered levels, a full class level behind preparatory casters. You would have to be sorcerer 4/favored soul 4 or sorcerer 4/shugenja 4 to qualify for Mystic Theurge, which would make you 4 levels behind a single-classed caster, and it would literally be impossible to ever get 9th level spells pre-epic, even if you only focused on one side after MT. A sorcerer 4/favored soul 4/MT 10/PrC X would gain 9th level spells on one side at 22nd level; on both sides by 26th level. Ah yes, my mistake. I'm much more of a fan of Wizards and Archivists. In any campaign I've been in, I've only seen non-spontaneous casters. That indeed highlights the fact that I forgot that one tiny little detail about one certain kind of caster in a system with a dozen kinds. As for the 9th level spell thing, I was assuming a Wizard 3/Archivist 3/MT 14.
X0_Lt_0X 03-13-08, 04:42 PM	As for the 9th level spell thing, I was assuming a Wizard 3/Archivist 3/MT 14. MT doesnt allow for Duel Spell progression after level 10 :(
X0_Lt_0X 03-13-08, 04:48 PM	you could get 9th level spells with THIS (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14540192&postcount=51) build or a similar one, well if your DM allows Trackless Step to count as a Class Feature rather than a Racial Ability for the purpose of entering Arcane Heirophant
M-bark 03-13-08, 07:04 PM	MT doesnt allow for Duel Spell progression after level 10 :( Oh, I know. But since the MT does not get any special extras like the Arcane Archer or Thaumaturgist or the Shadowdancer, it's much easier to make the class progress beyond the listed levels. I'd certainly allow it as a DM.
1 ton ghost 03-14-08, 01:16 PM	lot of statistical referencing going on. that is, i see a great deal of quantifiable data, but not alot of qualifiable in turn. min/maxing, but few realistic party applications and RP interaction. yes, falling behind in terms of CL, Turn Undead, and your Familiar capping can suck, however there are some considerations few make. being an RPG, it might be a gentle reminder to actually RP, you know? Devil's advocate; plz consider: -having both arcane and divine magics in one host solves alot of party issues. that is, having the heart and the brain of the party in one vessel forgoes alot of the infighting, disagreements, and conflicts concerning matters of faith and the arcane, which, quite often, blur and cross over. the Clr and Wzd are typically most likely to lock horns given the immense flexibility and "what-if" scenarios magic affords them. not in this case. that MT is the final arbiter of his/her god's will and application of arcana. -both magics in 1 PC allows for other PCs to branch out and experiment themselves. you might be shorthanded too for players. this might solve that. this allows for more players to try support classes rather than the typical "prefab 4" (1 tank, 1 scoundrel, 1 arcane, 1 divine). more character options means more freedom which often means more fun. mix/maxing is a sign of dramatic/creative weakness in some regards. you're building a character, not a sheet of paper w/ high numbers and letters on it. breath life into them. smart descisions and role-playing will garner you more power than simply upping your stats and repetoir almost always. -possessing both arcane/divine spell lists offers alot of unusual and unforseen combinations that might not have been previously feasible. -Item Creation takes on entirely different light, especially when you picked up Scribe Scroll for free at 1st. not alot of Clr's would do that and it affords you alot more protection w/ cost-effectiveness. you can also atone for lower CL in each class by having more scrolls, wands, etc. handy. ironic this time, but a quality vs. quantity arguement. this is not to say that MT's are the sh-t or anything. i just think they shoudl get a fair day in court vs. the usual rhetoric of numeric superiority vs. other casting classes and the power they afford.
teshen 03-14-08, 05:15 PM	lot of statistical referencing going on. that is, i see a great deal of quantifiable data, but not alot of qualifiable in turn. min/maxing, but few realistic party applications and RP interaction. yes, falling behind in terms of CL, Turn Undead, and your Familiar capping can suck, however there are some considerations few make. being an RPG, it might be a gentle reminder to actually RP, you know? Yes, but rp is rp. It's left up to the player to breath that life into the character. Right now, we're considering how powerful MT is mechanically. And it's not. Not even with a judicious amount of synergy, it just good, not great. Devil's advocate; plz consider: -having both arcane and divine magics in one host solves alot of party issues. that is, having the heart and the brain of the party in one vessel forgoes alot of the infighting, disagreements, and conflicts concerning matters of faith and the arcane, which, quite often, blur and cross over. the Clr and Wzd are typically most likely to lock horns given the immense flexibility and "what-if" scenarios magic affords them. not in this case. that MT is the final arbiter of his/her god's will and application of arcana.Depends... I've played a beguiler in a party with an undead mastery cleric; he covered his stuff, and I covered mine. No problem. -both magics in 1 PC allows for other PCs to branch out and experiment themselves. you might be shorthanded too for players. this might solve that. this allows for more players to try support classes rather than the typical "prefab 4" (1 tank, 1 scoundrel, 1 arcane, 1 divine). more character options means more freedom which often means more fun. . . True enough. If you've only got a few players, covering multiple roles is sometimes necessary. But you can do that pretty easy without dual classes. Cleric with magic domain. Archivist who collects 'arcane' domain spells. Wizard with one or two arcane domain feats. A rogue with right magic items and a use magic device focus. Druid. That's without being creative. -possessing both arcane/divine spell lists offers alot of unusual and unforseen combinations that might not have been previously feasible.If you come up with a reason for the arcanist and divine caster to work together (probably mutual self interest), there's no need to have a lagging dual caster... because two casters that work together can cast those 'unusual combinations' sooner. -Item Creation takes on entirely different light, especially when you picked up Scribe Scroll for free at 1st. not alot of Clr's would do that and it affords you alot more protection w/ cost-effectiveness. you can also atone for lower CL in each class by having more scrolls, wands, etc. handy. ironic this time, but a quality vs. quantity arguement.And what you're saying is that quantity can make up for quality in some cases... and you're right, in some cases. this is not to say that MT's are the sh-t or anything. i just think they shoudl get a fair day in court vs. the usual rhetoric of numeric superiority vs. other casting classes and the power they afford.And you're right, they can be useful, but usually not powerful... which was the point.
ninjarabbit 03-16-08, 12:58 PM	A cleric with the magic and/or spell domains can achieve a similar effect without all the suckiness.
Baninor 03-16-08, 02:39 PM	If you start at a high level rather than 1. You can pull of a divine/arcane build Druid3/Wiz3/Arcane Heirophant 10/MT 4 Basically if you can start at lvl 8. You will have 5th level druid abilities for wild shape. Meaning you can have (with 32 points) 8 8 8 18 18 8. Remember to take Natural Spell and Extra Shifting. Taking the feat from Complete Divine which increases your animal companion by 4 levels (can't exceed your max HD) also helps. But this is the best way to (at lvl 20) get Arcane and Divine 9th levels spells. Maybe Practiced Casting for better damage and spell penetration. But the point is this build is only feasible at lvl 8. Otherwise your so feeble you can't do anything.
ninjarabbit 03-16-08, 02:50 PM	If you start at a high level rather than 1. You can pull of a divine/arcane build Druid3/Wiz3/Arcane Heirophant 10/MT 4 Basically if you can start at lvl 8. You will have 5th level druid abilities for wild shape. Meaning you can have (with 32 points) 8 8 8 18 18 8. Remember to take Natural Spell and Extra Shifting. Taking the feat from Complete Divine which increases your animal companion by 4 levels (can't exceed your max HD) also helps. But this is the best way to (at lvl 20) get Arcane and Divine 9th levels spells. Maybe Practiced Casting for better damage and spell penetration. But the point is this build is only feasible at lvl 8. Otherwise your so feeble you can't do anything. But that build still has the same problem that the MT builds have in being 3 levels behind the pure spellcasters in spite of actually getting more class abilities. And like I said earlier a cleric with the animal and magic or spell domains can pull off a similar effect without the CL loss.
RobbyPants 03-16-08, 03:15 PM	A cleric with the magic and/or spell domains can achieve a similar effect without all the suckiness. Agreed. Even a straight Archivist can achieve many arcane/divine spell combinations, by virtue of many "arcane" spells being on various divine, non-cleric spell lists. That's even without the divine bard cheese. The only way I would ever consider playing a MT is if I thought the concept of the character would be cool/fun enough to warent it. Even if I were trying to fill two roles in a small party with a single character, I'd play an Archivist, or even a Cleric. The spell list is versitile enough to handle a lot of situations.
Neraagile 03-16-08, 03:54 PM	However nice the idear is, it is quite weak compared to the individual parts of it as well as, the individual classes can also achieve a smiliar result (at least on the Divine part) without actually using the class, that or they have superior choises as opposed to being slowed (crippled) by the prerequisites for the PrC, unless of course you go Wiz 2/Clerc 1/MT 3/TN 14 the build is quickly outclassed and outspell by a Archivist with Leadership and a Warlock cohort. Mystic Theurge is also a really, really barren prestige class, it should have class features, but it doesn't.
MikeOcherts 03-17-08, 04:15 AM	I'm actually currently playing one (Clr3/Wiz3/MT3). I rolled out my a$$ & had previously determined that if I had the rolls I would play one. In no way shape or form is this class "overpowered" or "broken". I'm just starting to catch up to the party members who single classed in usefulness in combat. Outside of encounters I find the quantity of spells I get to be very useful. With another cleric in the party his role is mainly the "healbot" while I become the primary "buffer". The other wizard in the party becomes more of a "glass cannon" without the need to worry about "helping" the party he just goes off & kills or neutralizes enemies. All the while I sit in the back (usually invisible or mirror imaged) using spectral hand to heal/buff PCs (from 50' away), dropping spiritual weapons, summoning monsters, summoning illusory monsters (after they see you summon REAL ones...silent/major image) or generally making the combat as confusing & frustrating as possible for the non PCs. In a party of six (2 Ftr variants, 1 Ftr/Rog, 1 Clr, 1 Wiz & me) I find this character to be a superior "support" player. I'm never in the front lines & rarely considered a main threat in combat so I often find myself "available" to either react to or preemptively thwart the oppositions plans. As has been stated earlier in this thread by no means is this the most powerful PC in the party but I find him a lot of fun to play...:D
seventh_scroll 03-17-08, 01:18 PM	I found a small, rather obscure use for the Mystic Theurge class. In Tome and Blood 3.0, there was a PrC called the True Necromancer, which required you to cast certain 3rd level arcane spells, and certain 3rd level divine spells. Normally, that would require you to be tenth level before you could qualify. By taking Clr3/Wiz3/MysTh2, you would qualify 2 levels sooner, and thus have 2 extra levels for other classes. I'm not sure if the True Necromancer is usable in 3.5, or if they've redone it completely, but the fact remains that Mystic Theurge works as a stepping stone for certain mixed casting PrCs. Also, imagine the usefulness in a Gestalt campaign. Being able to improve your spellcasting in two different classes while also boosting your combat ability with levels in Monk(for Wis to AC) and Swashbuckler(for Int to melee damage with certain weapons, including spiked chain). The awesomeness is palpable.
RobbyPants 03-17-08, 06:06 PM	I'm not sure if the True Necromancer is usable in 3.5, or if they've redone it completely, but the fact remains that Mystic Theurge works as a stepping stone for certain mixed casting PrCs. It was reprinted for 3.5 in Libris Mortis. Oddly enough, it's a 14 level PrC. Four of the levels only advance one class (two arcane and two divine), allowing for 12 levels each class. Still, it's a pretty weak class overall, but it could be cool if that's the theme you really want.
PurinaDragonChow 03-17-08, 06:52 PM	It does provide some cool class features, too, though, unlike MT. Question - has anyone tried a Mystic Theurge fix like Ultimate Magus (meaning, one of the requirements is able to cast 1st level divine spells instead of spontaneously cast 1st level arcane spells), and if so, how did it play?
Neraagile 03-17-08, 10:52 PM	Also, imagine the usefulness in a Gestalt campaign. Being able to improve your spellcasting in two different classes while also boosting your combat ability with levels in Monk(for Wis to AC) and Swashbuckler(for Int to melee damage with certain weapons, including spiked chain). The awesomeness is palpable. Gestalt rules actually specify that you should not included prestige classes that are hybrid like Mystic Theurge, Rage Mage, Eldritch Knight etc.
teshen 03-17-08, 11:36 PM	Gestalt rules actually specify that you should not included prestige classes that are hybrid like Mystic Theurge, Rage Mage, Eldritch Knight etc.True, but rage mage sucks so hardcore that it could be added just fine I think.
Mr_Teapot 03-19-08, 01:12 AM	Here's a really straightforward way to illustrate why the Mystic Theurge is weak. The best time to be a Mystic Theurge is right when you peak at 10th level of the PrC, as that is when you get maximum benefit from the class. This is at 16th level, barring Precocious Apprentice cheese. You cast as a 13th level wizard and a 13th level cleric. Imagine an NPC who is a 16th level character, and a Mystic Theurge. Their CR is 16, of course. This NPC casts as two 13th characters. According to the CR rules, two enemies of CR X is an encounter of CR +2. So facing a 13th level wizard and a 13th level cleric is a CR 15 encounter. Now, the Mystic Theurge should be tougher than this pair of NPCs, as his CR is one higher. But in fact, he is substantially weaker. He only casts one spell per turn, as opposed to their two. He only has one pool of hit points to draw from, one single initiative to go on (reducing the chance of getting the drop on the enemy). Probably doesn't have the melee capabilities of the straight cleric, and is lacking in feats and skills compared to the pair of NPCs. So the Mystic Theurge is less effective than the two characters he is copying, yet higher level. This means the MT is weak for their CR. Disclaimer: CR is not ECL or any other direct measure of a PC's performance, nor is it a terribly reliable measure. But it gets a point across: a MT is like playing a character who is really two weaker PCs at the same time, without the advantage of being two separate characters.
MikeOcherts 03-19-08, 02:28 AM	By the same logic a 16th level fighter isn't going to beat two 13th level fighters very often either... so the 16th level fighter "weak" for this???:rolleyes:
M-bark 03-19-08, 07:54 AM	By the same logic a 16th level fighter isn't going to beat two 13th level fighters very often either... so the 16th level fighter "weak" for this???:rolleyes: According to the reasoning Mr Teapot provides, no, because the fighter cannot cast spells. You'd need something like a Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 10, and you certainly got someone less powerful than a 13th level wizard and a 13th level fighter. Also, a 16th level fighter will often get beaten by two 13th level fighters, especially when optimized. The two can flank the other and when using full attack, they get six attacks, while the other gets only four. If they are all optimized for combat, the 13th level guys will win.
Neraagile 03-19-08, 09:18 AM	Here's a really straightforward way to illustrate why the Mystic Theurge is weak. The best time to be a Mystic Theurge is right when you peak at 10th level of the PrC, as that is when you get maximum benefit from the class. This is at 16th level, barring Precocious Apprentice cheese. You cast as a 13th level wizard and a 13th level cleric. How's it possible to get Eldritch Knight without 3rd level spells? Hey hey.... Earth Spell is superior to Precocious Apprentice in every way :P Mainly because it's a lot less debatable, even though it might require Flaws if your not human, so heres a quick Earth Spell build for any Mystic Theurges: Wizard 2/Cleric1/MT 3/Dread Necromancer 14 Level 1: Earth Sense, Heighten Spell (prerequisites) Level 3: Earth Spell Domains: Death, any. Basically you'll have a 17/16 split (close to 9th level in both) and Class feature! You could swap it around (depending on what you want 17 or 16 in respectively) To the rest of it, the CR system is quite honestly, horrible....
Mr_Teapot 03-19-08, 11:40 AM	By the same logic a 16th level fighter isn't going to beat two 13th level fighters very often either... so the 16th level fighter "weak" for this???:rolleyes: A) It's not about the two sets fighting one another, so much as it is comparing them as challenges against a set of appropriate level PCs. A Mystic Theurge is less of a challenge than two lower levels spellcasters, despite having a higher CR. This says something is wrong here. B) If you're questioning the claim that a 15th level fighter is as much a threat to the party as two 13th level fighters, that is not my claim. That claim is built into 3rd edition D&D. It's inherent in the CR system. And therefore would be better dealt with in a different thread ni the appropriate sub-forum. (I won't defend the CR system as perfect. But it gives good enough guidelines that it helps prove my point.)
MikeOcherts 03-19-08, 01:14 PM	OK then... How 'bout 2 17th level wizards vs. 1 20th level wizard... The 20th still has the higher CR & the 2 17th level wizards working in concert will win that fight 95 times out of 100... So the 20th level wizard is "weak"??? I guess I just don't understand the validity of the argument...
Mr_Teapot 03-19-08, 02:17 PM	OK then... How 'bout 2 17th level wizards vs. 1 20th level wizard... The 20th still has the higher CR & the 2 17th level wizards working in concert will win that fight 95 times out of 100... So the 20th level wizard is "weak"??? I guess I just don't understand the validity of the argument... A) "win that fight 95 times out of 100" suggests that you're still thinking in the framework of a 20th level wizard fighting two 17th level wizards. Which is wrong. I (and the CR system) am talking about a party of 20th level or so PCs facing either two 17th level casters or one 20th level caster. B) The higher level wizard should have more 9th level spells and other benefits of being higher level (feats, equipment, PrC class features, etc). But a Mystic Theurge doesn't have the advantage that higher level spells provide over the two lower level casters, as he's stuck at the same effective casting ability they are, without the benefits of being two characters. And the Mystic theurge's stats, feats and equipment are spread between two areas of expertise, which eliminates most of his advantage from being higher level than the two. C) You're arguing against the CR system, which is a valid thing to complain about, but not the purpose of this thread. I'm assuming the CR system does its job reasonably well, and then seeing what it says about the Mystic Theurge. If you disagree with the CR math, that's another thread.
Lokai 03-21-08, 01:01 AM	It does provide some cool class features, too, though, unlike MT. Question - has anyone tried a Mystic Theurge fix like Ultimate Magus (meaning, one of the requirements is able to cast 1st level divine spells instead of spontaneously cast 1st level arcane spells), and if so, how did it play? http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=15385255#post15385255 my atempt to fix MT though considered lowering caster level to 1 i dunno if its to much really but i agree MT is barren, i tried best to keep it balanced give MT some things that fit idea, comments in post be nice, ^^.
kriskey 03-21-08, 01:15 PM	In my opinion, people on these forums tend to overrate raw power and underrate flexibility for situational problem-solving. Virtually every single analysis here explaining that the MT is weak looks at raw and direct combat performance only... which I think is an unfair indicator and a bizarre angle for a game that allows so much to do that is problem solving oriented (I often wonder what kind of games people are playing in here). Not, mind you, that the MT is actually that bad in combat. He can totally heal, buff, debuff, control, etc. As the situation requires. Really, the MT has an incredible array of tools for problem solving at his disposal and can be an invaluable support character in a D&D group (especially a smaller-sized one that doesn't have two full-on casters). He can do SO much. Trust me. Ignore the gaudy on-paper numbers, and have one in your D&D group. Watch how many times he does something useful for your party. There will be many. I actually think the MT needs little adjustment. You get to play a cleric and a wizard at the same time? You *should* have less raw power. That's the price you pay, and it should remain fairly steep.
Lokai 03-21-08, 01:25 PM	In my opinion, people on these forums tend to overrate raw power and underrate flexibility for situational problem-solving. Virtually every single analysis here explaining that the MT is weak looks at raw and direct combat performance only... which I think is an unfair indicator and a bizarre angle for a game that allows so much to do that is problem solving oriented (I often wonder what kind of games people are playing in here). Not, mind you, that the MT is actually that bad in combat. He can totally heal, buff, debuff, control, etc. As the situation requires. Really, the MT has an incredible array of tools for problem solving at his disposal and can be an invaluable support character in a D&D group (especially a smaller-sized one that doesn't have two full-on casters). He can do SO much. Trust me. Ignore the gaudy on-paper numbers, and have one in your D&D group. Watch how many times he does something useful for your party. There will be many. I actually think the MT needs little adjustment. You get to play a cleric and a wizard at the same time? You *should* have less raw power. That's the price you pay, and it should remain fairly steep. People are not looking at level 20 and saying " well it sucks compared to a 20 wizard" least i don't, my general point has always been that end game MT s fine, when your max or epic MT is preforming damn good. HERE is problem, need level 6-8 to qualify for this class means that casting level 2 spells when evryone else is casting 4th-6th level spells, being 2-3 spell levels behind is the problem. If you however make class attainable at say 4th level and gaining spells in both from 4-5th level and only 1 spell level behind pure casters through early game THEN class isn't so bad. if wizard can cast 6th and i can cast 5th then its ok. Once ht 15 and have to go back to core classes and then slow down this is ok becuase at a point that you can do alright and groups strong enough to take a few hits here and there and be ok. Its not end game thats issue for MT its those mid levels.
kriskey 03-21-08, 01:36 PM	People are not looking at level 20 and saying " well it sucks compared to a 20 wizard" least i don't, my general point has always been that end game MT s fine, when your max or epic MT is preforming damn good. HERE is problem, need level 6-8 to qualify for this class means that casting level 2 spells when evryone else is casting 4th-6th level spells, being 2-3 spell levels behind is the problem. If you however make class attainable at say 4th level and gaining spells in both from 4-5th level and only 1 spell level behind pure casters through early game THEN class isn't so bad. if wizard can cast 6th and i can cast 5th then its ok. Once ht 15 and have to go back to core classes and then slow down this is ok becuase at a point that you can do alright and groups strong enough to take a few hits here and there and be ok. Its not end game thats issue for MT its those mid levels. Fair enough. It just seems to me a lot of this consideration is based on theory without actually seeing the situational MT in action. 4th level spells are perfectly useful at the point when 6th level spells are being cast in the game. Especially when you can cast twice the number and variety of them. Oh no, I'm fighting an opponent with 6th level spells and I only have access to spells like polymorph, haste, greater invisibility, divinie power, death ward, freedom of movement, cure critical wounds, etc. I'm doomed! How will I ever BE USEFUL in this world that's so very stacked against my character with options like these!? You'll notice none of these spells require saving throws, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. You want to tell me this character isn't immensely useful in almost any party? I certainly think your hasted, greater invisible, hydra rogue would think he's pretty nice to have around. Especially when he heals said rogue a turn later. The MT gets 80 buzillion options. He better have some significant weaknesses. How fair would it be otherwise? But I will come halfway. I'm only looking at core, here. I realize there's power creep. If there are a lot of extra books and options being used in your game, then I absolutely understand lowering the requirements a bit. Just a bit, mind you.
TazendrasGhost 03-21-08, 01:46 PM	Mystic Theurge is painful at low levels without early entry cheese, but eventually gets to the point where it can do some respectable things. If you want that character archtype and don't mind lagging behind, go for it. If you just want to play a scholarly priest though, there are other classes that fill that role a bit better mechanically. Archivist and Cloistered Cleric both come to mind as alternatives. I play in a group now and one of the other characters is a Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge, and the mid levels were very painful for him. His spells were too low level to do much in combat. He had to keep his INT and WIS both high, forcing him to keep his other attributes low, couldn't wear armor, had a terrible BAB and HPs, and he had to spend two feats on Practiced Caster for each class so his spells wouldn't get dispelled so easily. He was totally ineffective in any combat situation. On the other hand, he was able to spend a lot of his lower level spells on out of combat spells, and became a half decent party buffer. If you decide to play one, that is likely your low to mid level party role. I would not attempt to play one in a combat heavy game, unless I was starting at levels 12 or higher, or if I could use Precocious Apprentice to get in with only one Wizard level. In a less combat oriented game I'd consider it, or if I was in a group with other similarly crippled character builds.
SquibThePirate 03-21-08, 01:46 PM	Well, at the very least, MTs make for some intresting necromancers (which is what I think they had in mind all along personally.)
ninjarabbit 03-21-08, 04:49 PM	Fair enough. It just seems to me a lot of this consideration is based on theory without actually seeing the situational MT in action. 4th level spells are perfectly useful at the point when 6th level spells are being cast in the game. Especially when you can cast twice the number and variety of them. Oh no, I'm fighting an opponent with 6th level spells and I only have access to spells like polymorph, haste, greater invisibility, divinie power, death ward, freedom of movement, cure critical wounds, etc. I'm doomed! How will I ever BE USEFUL in this world that's so very stacked against my character with options like these!? You'll notice none of these spells require saving throws, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. You want to tell me this character isn't immensely useful in almost any party? I certainly think your hasted, greater invisible, hydra rogue would think he's pretty nice to have around. Especially when he heals said rogue a turn later. The MT gets 80 buzillion options. He better have some significant weaknesses. How fair would it be otherwise? But I will come halfway. I'm only looking at core, here. I realize there's power creep. If there are a lot of extra books and options being used in your game, then I absolutely understand lowering the requirements a bit. Just a bit, mind you. Those 4th level spells are competing against 5th and 6th level spells like antimagic field, greater dispel magic, heal, harm, raise dead, teleport, and cloudkill (and that's core only) in addition to being able to cast all those 3rd and 4th level spells. And you're normally only going to be casting 1 spell/round and in that case I'd rather be casting a 6th or 5th level spell than a 3rd or 4th level spell. Not to mention that the pure caster will be 2 feats ahead normally because didn't have to take practiced spellcaster twice and the fact that the pure spellcaster will have an easier time metamagicing. Have fun using quicken spell with those 4th level spell slots. I'm going to take a wild guess and say that you think warlocks are pretty powerfull.
bluedsteel 03-24-08, 02:47 PM	Those 4th level spells are competing against 5th and 6th level spells like antimagic field, greater dispel magic, heal, harm, raise dead, teleport, and cloudkill (and that's core only) in addition to being able to cast all those 3rd and 4th level spells. And you're normally only going to be casting 1 spell/round and in that case I'd rather be casting a 6th or 5th level spell than a 3rd or 4th level spell. Actually, the straight build can't cast all those 3rd and 4th level spells. In fact, he can't cast half of them. Nor can he cast half of the 5th and 6th level spells you posted. That's the point. MT offers tremendous flexibility. That's why the above CR comparison is stupid... it compares two people to one. Well, OF COURSE the two will win on even CR... they have more actions in a turn. DUH. The point of the MT is that he has a broad variety of choices when he's deciding what to do with his actions. Personally, I'd say the value of MT is dependent on what you're wanting to do. If you want to buff, MT rocks. If you want to DD, you're gonna want Maw of Chaos, so no. If you want battlefield control, MT is pretty good. Debuffing? Meh, at best. The main thing for MT is to do things that don't allow CL checks, and minimal saving throws. For instance, I happen to love healers who can cast grease, or wall of stone, or polymorph, or... you get the point.
kriskey 03-24-08, 03:07 PM	Those 4th level spells are competing against 5th and 6th level spells like antimagic field, greater dispel magic, heal, harm, raise dead, teleport, and cloudkill (and that's core only) in addition to being able to cast all those 3rd and 4th level spells. And you're normally only going to be casting 1 spell/round and in that case I'd rather be casting a 6th or 5th level spell than a 3rd or 4th level spell. And they compete just fine. Extreme versatility. I think a couple polymorphs, greater invisibilities here and there would do the trick in combat. Followed maybe by some situational problem-solving like death ward and freedom of movement. Then, when it's all over the party can be healed. How in the hell is this character not useful at this level? Seriously. You couldn't figure out how to make an extremely useful party member with this? Everyone in the group would love him.
ninjarabbit 03-24-08, 05:27 PM	A 11th level cleric is casting heal, a cleric3/wizard3/MT5 is casting cure critical wounds, I'd rather have the guy who can cast heal than the guy who can cast CCW and grease. I'm not saying that MTs aren't useful and don't have their niche, but what I am saying is that a straight caster is flat out better due to being able to cast higher level spells, having more PrC and feat flexibility, and by not having MAD issues. If I want a wizard who can cast cure spells I'll take the arcane disciple (healing domain) feat, if I want a cleric who can cast arcane spells I'll take various domains to get the spells I want.
Lotus Crane 03-24-08, 10:48 PM	I'm not saying that MTs aren't useful and don't have their niche, but what I am saying is that a straight caster is flat out better due to... ...not having MAD issues. Aside from bonus spells per day, archivists base their spellcasting ability off of Intelligence, which eliminates that particular problem.
bluedsteel 03-25-08, 04:15 PM	A 11th level cleric is casting heal, a cleric3/wizard3/MT5 is casting cure critical wounds, I'd rather have the guy who can cast heal than the guy who can cast CCW and grease. I'm not saying that MTs aren't useful and don't have their niche, but what I am saying is that a straight caster is flat out better due to being able to cast higher level spells, having more PrC and feat flexibility, and by not having MAD issues. If I want a wizard who can cast cure spells I'll take the arcane disciple (healing domain) feat, if I want a cleric who can cast arcane spells I'll take various domains to get the spells I want. Two points. First... it's CCW and polymorph. :D Second... a straight caster may be better... or may not. The question, as I mentioned, is: Better at what? There are many things that MT is better at. You can't just say "straight caster is better" without saying better at what. It's like saying rogues are better than fighters without specifying the situation.