Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Geezer 08-07-07, 11:31 PM	This is a class idea I was kicking around, just for laughs. Basic premise: warrior that is easy to hit, impossible to bring down. This was going to be a base class, but shortly before I posted it, I decided to make it a PrC. I have a feeling that it is a little too powerful, but if I thought it was perfect there wouldn’t be much point in saying P.E.A.C.H. in the title would there? (this is supposed to be balanced in respect towards ToB melee classes, not regular core classes) Oh, and if anyone can come up with a better name, have at it. The Heavy “It is a maddening experience to be locked in a deadly battle with a nimble foe you cannot hit. It is a terrifying experience to be locked in a battle with a foe who welcomes your blows with open arms and does not succumb to injury.” - An old anecdote A heavy is simply a warrior that refuses to die. They do not possess the training of a fighter, nor the rage of a barbarian, nor the divine favor of a paladin. All they have is an iron will that drives them to go further, to withstand blows that would fall a lesser man, and to never surrender in the face of danger. Making a Heavy Abilities: Unyielding stamina is paramount for a heavy, so Constitution is a vital ability for a heavy. Strength is also important because of how often a Heavy engages in melee. Wisdom is also important to a heavy because of their stronger will power, and some abilities require a high Wisdom score. Dexterity is not as important to a Heavy as it is to other melee classes. Races: Dwarves seemingly make the perfect heavy. With their enhanced endurance, military lifestyle and tendency toward lawfulness, a heavy and a dwarf go hand in hand. Humans, goliaths and giants are also often member of this class. Orc heavies are rare, though not unheard of, often times preferring the savagery of the barbarian class. Other heavies would openly mock Halfling and gnomes. The halflings and gnomes would mock elven heavies. Alignment: A heavy must be of a lawful alignment. Their single minded devotion and their preference to go over obstacles rather than to adapt to them demonstrates their almost blind devotion to law. Should a heavy cease being lawful, they lose all of their class features with exception to weapon and armor proficiency. Heavies fall all over the good/ evil spectrum. Good heavies are bulwarks of all that is good and righteous, defending the common man, and evil heavies are unstoppable engines of destruction. HD: d12 Skill Points per level: 2 + Int modifier Class Skills: Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Survival, and Swim Requirements: Feats: Endurance, Diehard, Iron Will Alignment: Any lawful BAB: +8 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've been looking all over the FAQ pages on how to create a table for the past half hour, but thus far it has been in vain. If someone could tell me the code, that would be fantastic. But for the time being, my lame attempt at table-esque form: Level_BAB____Fort_ Ref_Will__Special 1____+1_____+2___+0__+2__Sturdy Frame, Dig In 2____+2_____+3___+0__+3__With Fortitude and Spirit 1/day, Iron Body 3____+3_____+3___+1__+3__Ain't over til it's over 4____+4_____+4___+1__+4__Unflinching, With Fortitude and Spirit 2/day 5____+5_____+4___+1__+4__Steel Body 6____+6/+1__+5___+2__+5__Head on Defense, With Fortitude and Spirit 3/day 7____+7/+2__+5___+2__+5__Unyeilding 8____+8/+3__+6___+2__+6__Mettle, With Fortitude and Spirit 4/day 9____+9/+4__+6___+3__+6__Adamant Body 10___+10/+5_+7___+3__+7__Unstoppable, With Fortitude and Spirit 5/day Class Features: Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Gain no proficiencies. Sturdy Frame (Ex): A heavy is someone who has a fair bit of meat their bones, meaning you're going to have to hack at them a bit longer than you would a normal man. A heavy gains an additional 4 hit points per level they gain in the heavy class. Iron Body (Ex): A heavy makes a living out of getting stabbed, slashed, bitten, stung, etc. and you don't live long in that sort of bussiness if you can't take a hit. Whether it is through toughness, last second dodging, or pure dumb luck, a heavy seems to be able to shake off minor injuries. They gain DR 3/-. Dig In (Ex): A heavy is meant to simply stand there and get hit. A task many heavies excel at. In fact, many of a heavy's abilities depend on them not moving around too much. In order to properly use their abilities, a heavy lowers their base land speed by 10 feet, though it can go no lower than 20 feet. This does not affect running speed. They also take a -1 unamed penalty to AC per 2 class levels (minimum of -1). A heavy is meant to "soak up" damage and they can't do so if their foes believe striking them is an exercise in futility. A heavy may volentarily turn these penalties "on or off" as a free action at the immediate start of their turn, they can no take other actions before decide to have this ability active or not. A heavy can turn this ability "on and off" as they see fit, but they can only make the switch once per round and once the choice has been made, they are stuck with their decision until their next turn. The class features gained from this class only function when these penalties are "on". These abilities can be turned "off" for ease of adventuring; gaining a level in this class does not make a character forget how to walk or duck. With Fortitude and Spirit (Ex): A heavy seems to be able to bounce back from the most devestating injuries as easily as some people can breath. When a heavy is reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by an attack, including death effects that would slay them outright (but not ones that also destroy the body) they immediately regain a number of hit points equal to their heavy class level x their Wisdom modifier x 2. A heavy can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 1/2 thier heavy level as per the above table. Ain't over till it's over (Ex): No man takes a beating lying down and a heavy is no different. A heavy is meant for taking punishment, but they can also dish it out as well. When a heavy is at 75% health (or lower) they may add their Wisdom modifier to their melee attack rolls and their Constitution modifer to their melee damage rolls. When a heavy is at half health (or lower) they add double their Wisdom modifier to melee attack rolls and double their Constitution modifier to melee damage rolls. Finally, when a heavy is at 1/4 health or lower, they add triple their Wisdom modifier to their melee attack rolls and triple their Constitution modifer to their melee damage rolls Unflinching (Ex): At 4th level, when a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on a heavy, there is a 25% chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally. This represents a heavy’s innate ability to fight through crippling wounds through sheer force of will. This does not stack with the fortification armor magic effect. Steel Body (Ex): It's a fact of life, people who put their lives in imminent danger are usually the ones who walk away without a scratch. A heavy's damage reduction improved to 6/-. Head on Defense (Ex): At 6th level, a heavy may make a Fortitude save in place of a Reflex save against enemy attacks, spells or the like, a number of times per day equal to 1/2 their heavy class level + their Con modifier. Unyielding (Ex): At 7th level, when a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on a heavy, there is a 50% chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally. This does not stack with the fortification armor magic effect. Mettle (Ex): Your undying will to survive has granted you the ability to shrug off debilitating attacks directed at your mind and body. If you succeed on a Fortitude or Will save against an attack that would normally produce a lesser effect on a successful save, you instead negate the effect. You do not gain the benefit of mettle when you are unconscious or sleeping. A Fortitude save that is substituted in place of a Reflex save through the Head on Defense ability is not subject to the effects of Mettle. Adamant Body (Ex): At this point, a heavy's ability to avoid major injury defies explaination. They gain DR 9/-. Unstoppable (Ex): At 10th level, when a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on a heavy, there is a 100% chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally. This does not stack with the fortification armor magic effect.
Miscaleous 08-08-07, 01:28 PM	You could just say that the Unyielding ability grants 10% per point of Wisdom bonus to shrug off crits/Sneak Attacks; and therefore Unstoppable grants 20% per Wisdom bonus. Both with their respective minimums of course. And, yes, I love tank classes. I'm still trying to make my marshal/crusader work, but barbarian classes just have too much HP to give up.
Geezer 08-11-07, 04:43 PM	I made the suggested changes for ease of reading. But are there any other comments out there? Or did I make a "good" class?
bkdubs123 08-11-07, 05:48 PM	Way of the Undying is something that would have been suitable if this were a 5 level prestige class, but as a 10 level class it goes a bit overboard. I would suggest granting the bonuses and negatives every two levels beyond the first. Otherwise, the class really isn't my cup of tea, but it is rather well written, and it seems like it should be just fine.
Walls 08-11-07, 05:58 PM	I did actually! A big Blob (from X-Men) like guy!
Wall 08-11-07, 06:11 PM	A very nice implementation of a very cool concept. Although you may want to re-word the "With Fortitude and Spirit" ability a bit; It took me a couple of read-overs to completely understand what the ability did.
IdleAltruism 08-11-07, 07:21 PM	Level_BAB____Fort_ Ref_Will__Special 1____+1_____+2___+0__+2__Way of the Undying 2____+2_____+3___+0__+3__With Fortitude and Spirit 3____+3_____+3___+1__+3__Guts 4____+4_____+4___+1__+3__Unflinching 5____+5_____+4___+1__+4__- 6____+6/+1__+5___+2__+4__Head on Defense 7____+7/+2__+5___+2__+4__Unyeilding 8____+8/+3__+6___+2__+5__Mettle 9____+9/+4__+6___+3__+5__Stubborn Progress 10___+10/+5_+7___+3__+5__Unstoppable The Will save should be adjusted to either poor or good not a 5 Way of the Undying (Ex): This ability grants several bonuses and penalties. Firstly, for every level of the heavy class they gain, a character gains 5 bonus hit points. They also gain DR 1/- per level of the class which stacks with itself, but cannot be higher than their Constitution score. Thirdly, a heavy takes a –1 unnamed penalty to AC for each level in this class. Finally, a heavy’s base land speed becomes 20ft, and may only run at 3x their speed. The two penalties cannot be removed. This seems really harsh, granted 30 con isn't impossible to get but its still up their to gain the maximum benefit of this ability. I understand why you can't give them straight DR/- without a penalty, but -10 to AC is just ouch. The DR does not outweigh the AC. When you can max out this ability at level 18 the average CR 18 has about a 30+ to hit which makes you an auto hit unless you only have gear that +AC and nothing else which would basically make you function as a normal. The 10 DR late game just isn't worth it, it helps yes but its not worth the AC penalty. As for the second part of this ability, I don't understand what its all about. Making your speed a 20 no matter what, does this work with small creatures? Does it adjust differently with them? Exactly Why does their base landspeed change? Do they physically cripple themselves? How does this affect dwarves? I could understand them being able to move normally in heavy armor but I don't understand why their base land speed changes. I suggest you change the +5 Hps to something like gain improved toughness as the feat. I would also change the DR to something like a barbarians DR, make it useful just not so crippling. You might want to look at other prestige classes that grant DR and scale it accordingly. As for the movement like I said I don't understand it. I would change it to allow normal movement in heavy armor, as it is its just crippling you if you don't wear heavy armor(and its not helping you if you do wear heavy armor). I suggest you split this ability up into 3 new abilities(rolling them up into one big one can be annoying when you're just looking for one ability). With Fortitude and Spirit (Ex): A heavy battles through massive injuries that would leave a normal man dead in a heap on the ground. Should a heavy sustain enough damage to bring them into negative hitpoints, they may function a normally a round per point of Wisdom modifier, up to a maximum of their heavy class level divided by 2, even if their hitpoints are reduced below –10. A 4th level heavy could function as such for 2 rounds, and the rounds must be consecutive. However, a heavy may not move more than 5 feet during their turn, while still using this ability. A heavy using this ability is still able to attack and even full attack without succumbing to death or unconsciousness. Should a heavy be in negative hit points, but not below –10 when this condition expires, they are free to use their Diehard feat as normal. Should this condition expire when a heavy is at or below –10 HP, they immediately fall unconscious, but do not immediately die. They are able to cling to life for 1 round per point of Constitution bonus up to a maximum of 1 round per 2 levels of this class. Any healing a Heavy gets in this time is halved, and any damage dealt to a heavy in this state automatically kills him, no matter how much damage was dealt. At the end of this duration, should a heavy have hit points above –10, he does not die, though he is still unconscious, unless brought into positive hitpoints. This ability is pretty much worthless, I would remove it or improve it. Maybe they can heal double heavy class level x wis mod whenever reduced to below 0, anything really this is to limited. Guts (Ex): At 3rd level a heavy becomes immune to fear effects. Flavor wise I don't think this fits, they can take damage sure but immune to fear doesn't really seem to suit them. To me this class is like a fighter sponge and that just doesn't fit the bill for immune to fear. Unflinching (Ex): At 4th level, when a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on a heavy, there is a 5% chance per point of Wisdom modifier (minimum of 5%) that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally. Example: a 5th heavy with a Wisdom modifier of +2 would have a 10% of negating a critical hit or sneak attack. This represents a heavy’s innate ability to fight through crippling wounds through sheer force of will. This does not stack with the fortification armor magic effect. I would make this less supernatural and more armor based, maybe progress it by level and armor size and possibly make it stack with other sources. Something like they train wearing armor and using it they can negate criticals, maybe start it off at second level into the PrC at 25% then at 6 make it 50% then at 10 make it 100% fortification. Head on Defense (Ex): At 6th level, a heavy may make a Fortitude save in place of a Reflex save against enemy attacks, spells or the like. This is to powerful. I'd make it so many times per day maybe based on level, depending on how many abilities you have based on level. But right now way to powerful. Stubborn Progress (Ex): A heavy does not know the meaning of the word “can’t”. Come hell or high water, they will succeed…eventually. When using a skill that they have no ranks in, a heavy can add their Constitution modifier to their skill modifier if the skill’s key ability score is a physical ability score, or they add their Wisdom modifier if the key ability was a mental ability score. They also add the original key ability score modifier to this skill check. Example, a heavy with no ranks in climb would roll a d20 and add both their Strength score and their Constitution score; a heavy with no ranks in gather information would roll both their Charisma and Wisdom modifiers to the d20 roll. A skill used in this manner takes 3 times longer than normal. A heavy is still unable to use skills that one must be trained in to use such as Spellcraft. This just seems more fluff then anything, really not worth it. I'd remove entirely. This class really lacks versatility and offense and as it is I would take pure fighter over it. My advice would be to focus more on either the martial or the supernatural aspect of it and try to make it more useful latter on. Right now anyone with any fortification(at that level everyone should have it) < this. All this gives is a good fort and will beyond that its actually giving more penalties then it gives bonuses.
Geezer 08-11-07, 09:33 PM	Yay, I got some responses. Let's go down the line then. Way of the Undying is something that would have been suitable if this were a 5 level prestige class, but as a 10 level class it goes a bit overboard. I would suggest granting the bonuses and negatives every two levels beyond the first. Okay, Way of the Undying needs work, more on that later. A very nice implementation of a very cool concept. Although you may want to re-word the "With Fortitude and Spirit" ability a bit; It took me a couple of read-overs to completely understand what the ability did. Yeah I figured that would cause some confusion, I'm just a little bad at expressing what I mean in words. I'm going to number the next bit and answer after the quote. 1) The Will save should be adjusted to either poor or good not a 5. 2) This seems really harsh, granted 30 con isn't impossible to get but its still up their to gain the maximum benefit of this ability. I understand why you can't give them straight DR/- without a penalty, but -10 to AC is just ouch. The DR does not outweigh the AC. When you can max out this ability at level 18 the average CR 18 has about a 30+ to hit which makes you an auto hit unless you only have gear that +AC and nothing else which would basically make you function as a normal. The 10 DR late game just isn't worth it, it helps yes but its not worth the AC penalty. 3) As for the second part of this ability, I don't understand what its all about. Making your speed a 20 no matter what, does this work with small creatures? Does it adjust differently with them? Exactly Why does their base landspeed change? Do they physically cripple themselves? How does this affect dwarves? I could understand them being able to move normally in heavy armor but I don't understand why their base land speed changes. 4) I suggest you change the +5 Hps to something like gain improved toughness as the feat. I would also change the DR to something like a barbarians DR, make it useful just not so crippling. You might want to look at other prestige classes that grant DR and scale it accordingly. 5) As for the movement like I said I don't understand it. I would change it to allow normal movement in heavy armor, as it is its just crippling you if you don't wear heavy armor(and its not helping you if you do wear heavy armor). 6) I suggest you split this ability up into 3 new abilities(rolling them up into one big one can be annoying when you're just looking for one ability). 7) This ability is pretty much worthless, I would remove it or improve it. Maybe they can heal double heavy class level x wis mod whenever reduced to below 0, anything really this is to limited. 8) Flavor wise I don't think this fits, they can take damage sure but immune to fear doesn't really seem to suit them. To me this class is like a fighter sponge and that just doesn't fit the bill for immune to fear. 9) I would make this less supernatural and more armor based, maybe progress it by level and armor size and possibly make it stack with other sources. Something like they train wearing armor and using it they can negate criticals, maybe start it off at second level into the PrC at 25% then at 6 make it 50% then at 10 make it 100% fortification. 10) This is too powerful. I'd make it so many times per day maybe based on level, depending on how many abilities you have based on level. But right now way too powerful. 11) This just seems more fluff then anything, really not worth it. I'd remove entirely. 12) This class really lacks versatility and offense and as it is I would take pure fighter over it. My advice would be to focus more on either the martial or the supernatural aspect of it and try to make it more useful latter on. Right now anyone with any fortification(at that level everyone should have it) < this. All this gives is a good fort and will beyond that its actually giving more penalties then it gives bonuses. 1) I'll bump it up to a good save then. 2) I see your point, I didn't factor in at what level the monsters would be at that level accuratley. Would reducing the AC penalty to -1/ 2 levels suffice or should a more radical change be made? 3) Okay this one I just horribly failed to convey what I was thinking. What that ability should state is that a character's base land speed is reduced by 10 feet but can go no lower than 20 feet. In a stroke of stupidity I completey forgot about races that have a base land speed of something other than 30. This is due to the fact that in order to preserve their defenses, the character cannot go rocketing around the battlefeild. Basically: the more you move about the more likely you are going to leave a gap in your defenses. 4) Let me do some research and get back to you. But there's about a 95% chance that it will be reworked. But I made it +5hp per each level of the heavy class because I didn't want people to dip this class and wind up with alot more hp over their career because of it, but I also wanted to reward characters who went through this class. 5) Hopefully I've cleared that bit up, let me know if I haven't. 6) I good idea if I've ever heard one. 7) You mean give it a tried and true ability without a wall of illegable text!? (sarcasm btw) But using the ability at nearly anytime is a good idea. Consider the old "With Fortitude and Spirit" skeet for the time being while I make a better, and more concise version. 8) When I wrote this class, I had a rebuttle for that arguement. Notice I used past tense there. Yeah, that's gone. 9) Well I made it have less to do with armor so it was kind of open to everyone, but just now I realized that the only people interested in this class would be the heavily armored guys. Now as for why I didn't do the 25-50-100 progression and instead went with the Wisdom mod system was because I wanted it to reflect the determination of the heavy. But, it seems that it was just rather clunky, and useless at high levels when you actually get the abilities. Poor planning on my part. 10) *Runs some numbers* Yep, definately overpowered. How about a number of times per day equal to 1/2 their heavy class level + their Con modifier? 11) ... Again a I forgot to factor in at what level these abilities would be gotten. A +6 or so to an untrained skill at 18th level is rather useless. Gone. 12) Owww. But I see your point. Okay, so I'm going to change the class on the first post with the changes decided upon here, then fill in the chinks in the armor so to speak. The next interation will be more martial oriented, and have a bit of offense going for it as well. Thank you to everyone for all your imput. If you have any suggestions for something you would like to see, I would be glad to hear it.
NightScreamer20 08-13-07, 03:44 AM	There is something I'd like to add... Mostly that this class is just a 'Dip' class. How could you NOT give up 1 level of Fighter or any other Full BAB class to gain +1 HP per HD, DR 3/-... and just by reducing my speed by 10 ft and my AC by 1 whilst in melee where I am most useful anyway... Progression of those abilities needs to be SLOWED especially the DR... And Improved Toughness should be a Requirement instead of Iron Will... having the ability to shrug off the affects of mind numbing spells and the such just doesn't go with the whole "Hit me all you want! I won't go down!" aspect.
Geezer 08-14-07, 01:43 PM	Yeah, I had a feeling when a re-did the class I had made it a little too front loaded and dippable, but when I did it, it was really late at night so I just threw my ideas down in a fairly organized manner then went to bed. I was going to make some changes, but my schedule was unexpectedly full the past few days so I didn't have the opprotunity to make the changes I wanted. I think I'm going to replace the Improved toughness ability with the one I originally had, it made the class less dip-able. DR is going to be moved back a level at least. Now as for not needing a high Will save for this class, and Iron Will as requirement, I'm going to disagree with you on that point. Classes that are meant to soak up damage such as the Knight and the Dwarven Defender have a good progression for Will saves. The reason I think this is so is because it takes a quite a bit of mental fortitude to simply stand in place when you know that you are going to be feeling intense pain in the near future. But with the Knight and Dwarven Defender classes, their armor class is steadily increasing as they gain levels, where as this class' AC is decreasing. Therefore, a heavy must have even more immpressive mental fortitude than these two classes, which is why the Iron Will feat is required. Thank you for your imput.