NRT's Duelist Please [PEACH] [Archive] - Wizards Community

NRT's Duelist Please [PEACH] [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
NobodyRemembersThis
08-07-07, 10:19 AM Hit Dice: D10

Requirements: BAB +5, Balance 8 ranks, Tumble 8 ranks, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Weapon Focus (any finesseable weapon)

The Duelists class skills, and the key abilities to each are: Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge [Local, Nobility & Royalty] (Int), Tumble (Dex).

Skill points per level: 6+ Intelligence Modifier.

Level BAB Fort Ref Will Abilities
1 +1 +0 +2 +0 Nimble, Fast Movement
2 +2 +0 +3 +0 Dueling Trick
3 +3 +1 +3 +1 Riposte, Quick Reactions
4 +4 +1 +4 +1 Dueling Trick
5 +5 +1 +4 +1 Dueling Trick, Precision

CLASS FEATURES

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: the duelist gains no new weapon proficiencies and is proficient in light armor.

Nimble - +1 dodge bonus to AC in light or no armor. This bonus increases by +1 at duelist levels 3 and 5 to a maximum bonus of +3. Bonus does not apply when fighting defensively. This bonus does not apply if you are flat-footed. If you already have the Fighter Special ability Nimble, your duelist levels stack with your fighter levels to determine the level of bonus gained.

Fast Movement - A duelist's land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor or light armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the duelist's speed because of any load carried or armor worn.

Dueling Tricks - The Duelist learns some specialized techniques he may use in combat. At levels 2, 4, and 5, the duelist selects one trick to learn.

Acrobatic Attack - You use your agility to attack from a surprising angle. You must move at least 10 feet and succeed at a tumble check (DC 20). If successful, you deal +3d6 points of damage.

Lethal Disarm - You have trained your disarm skills to the point that you often damage your opponents swordarm, preventing them fom dueling effectively. A succesful disarm attempt deals 2 points of strength damage and the opponent is unable to use that hand to hold objects, weapons, or shields until the wound is tended. Stopping the bleeding requires a heal check with a DC of 10 plus the duelists base attack bonus.

Sharp Wit - You use your words to give you an edge in combat. Make a feint as a swift action. If successful, you gain a +2 competence bonus to hit and damage, and a +2 dodge bonus to AC for 2 rounds. Each successive use of this ability against the same target does not increase the bonuses, but does extend the duration by +2 rounds. Each successive use of this ability grants your opponent a cumulative +1 bonus on his opposed check.

Sign Opponent - As a standard action, you may make an attack roll against your target. If successful, instead of dealing damage you carve a symbol onto his front or backside. The subject is allowed a save (DC 15 plus your duelist level plus your intelligence modifier) or be stunned for 1 round. Additionally, the target is shaken for 1 hour afterwards, regardless of save.

Sucker Punch - You trick your opponent and strike with pommel/hilt of your sword. Make a feint as a swift action. If successful, you may make an additional attack this round at your highest attack bonus. This second attack deals 1d4 points of damage, and is modified by the weapons enchant and your strength. Its has a threat range of 20, and a a critical modifier of x2.

Riposte - At 3rd level, you learn to hold back some of your offensive prowess to enable a potent counter attack. As a full round action, make one melee attack at your highest attack bonus. Any time before the start of your next turn, you can use an immediate action to make a melee attack (using your highest attack bonus) against an enemy that attacks you in melee.

Quick Reactions - The duelist gains a +2 bonus to initiative that stacks with the improved intiative feat.

Precision - You deal +3 points of physical damage with your melee attacks. Should the duelist score a critical hit, this extra damage is not multiplied. This damage is applied to only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to this additional damage. The duelist must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A duelist cannot deal this additional damage while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach. Your Duelist levels stack with fighter levels to determine the bonus granted by the fighter special ability precision - the duelist precision stacks with the fighter special ability.
NobodyRemembersThis
08-07-07, 10:20 AM Any thoughts about the balance of this class?
NobodyRemembersThis
08-08-07, 11:21 PM :bump: Nothing?
NobodyRemembersThis
08-13-07, 12:18 AM :bump: Nothing?Still nothing?
IdleAltruism
08-13-07, 12:45 AM The dueling tricks need to be upgraded, as they are they aren't very useful. No matter how classic sign opponent may be, it just doesn't work against alot of monsters.

This seems to be a swashbuckler type class but doesn't really have a social aspect to it. I'd add intimidate to the prerequisites instead of balance and add new uses for it.

I'd also add Einhander to the prerequisites just because I think every duelist type should have it(it might not be the greatest feat ever but flavor wise its awesome)

Maybe make slight of hand a useful skill for feinting and special maneuvers involving feinting enemies?

Currently your version is pretty underpowered.
NobodyRemembersThis
08-13-07, 01:30 AM Hmmmm. Ok. What do you sugest for the abilities? How would I make them stronger?
IdleAltruism
08-13-07, 12:35 PM Well right now the abilities don't do much and can be countered way to easily. Also the sign opponent doesn't allow any kind of save so you can carve your name into a dragons backside and make it run in fear? Granted they are only frightened for one round but if they have teleport they have to use it.

Disarming is nice, but you don't have a huge bonus to disarming. You aren't a true fighter where you can spend all the feats you want on these sort of things and you have no substantial bonuses to make you an effective disarmer. Against most encounters the two disarming abilities aren't going to be effective.

You can enter this PrC at level 6, look at the CR 6+ monsters. It may be a duelist class but it should still be effective in normal play.

I suggest scraping the disarm idea(and drop weapon focus, its just a waste of a feat here). And go for something more substantial, like new feinting abilities. Maybe add precision damage on a successful feint? Maybe add options to gain dodge bonuses against feinted targets. Also tumbling and sleight of hand could be incorporated somehow. Bonuses on feinting if you tumble past a foe, additional flanking bonuses if you tumble past a foe, or a free feint attempt if you successfully tumble past a foe. Theres quite a few things you could do with it.
Athaal
08-13-07, 05:37 PM Some of the abilities are unique however i feel that d10 with medium armor is too good for a duelist, not only in name, but in AC bonus.

Nimble - +1 dodge bonus to AC in light or no armor.

Fast Movement - A duelist's land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor

One of them needs to be changed.

just thought i'd point out

I like the dueling tricks - good idea
NobodyRemembersThis
08-14-07, 07:49 AM Made some changes, and am rethinking the prerequisites. More later, but how does it look now?
Aryxbez
08-14-07, 08:08 AM Well NRT, just added you to my buddy list, hope you don't mind.

Well the class looks decent, the skill selection probably has some faults, such as there being no Diplomacy, Sense motive in there.

As far as Requirements go, why not just change weapon focus to Weapon Finesse? since you are going to have to have a finnesable weapon anyway.

Ways to make it more powerful would probably to give it a precision/sneak attack Progression. As well as perhaps the tricks being something like the feats from Complete Scoundrel? Since the Sucker punch is almost similar to throat punch. I like the Slashing Disarm trick, pretty good. Also ensure to make the whole armor wearing thing consistent, if you want them wearing medium armor, then do so if not then change it.

Also NRT, if you were needing replies to your thread in the beginning, why did you not PM me? As I am always glad to help someone in need.
NobodyRemembersThis
08-14-07, 09:34 AM I added you too - I thought I had done so earlier. :blush: I can't believe I didn't think of PMing for assitance. *smacks forehead* :(
gullas
08-14-07, 11:01 AM Nice , i really didn't like the wotc duelist but this is a prc I would want to play:)
NobodyRemembersThis
08-14-07, 12:29 PM I changed the abilities up a bit as well for the tricks and added a new one. :)
IdleAltruism
08-14-07, 01:20 PM :Acrobatic Attack - You use your agility to attack from a surprising angle. You must move at least 10 feet and succeed at a tumble check (DC 20). If successful, you deal +3d6 points of damage.

I have a few questions about these abilities. Does the acrobatic strike count as precision damage? I suggest just leaving it as a normal tumble check, so they can use any form of tumbling(going through opponents square) to gain this benefit.

Lethal Disarm - You have trained your disarm skills to the point that you often damage your opponents swordarm, preventing them fom dueling effectively. A succesful disarm attempt deals 2 points of strength damage and the opponent is unable to use that hand to hold objects, weapons, or shields until the wound is tended. Stopping the bleeding requires a heal check with a DC of 10 plus the duelists base attack bonus.

What kind of magical healing can repair this? Could a cure light heal the str damage? Or just a heal check or something like restoration?

Sharp Wit - You use your words to give you an edge in combat. Make a feint as a swift action. If successful, you gain a +2 competence bonus to hit and damage, and a +2 dodge bonus to AC for 2 rounds. Each successive use of this ability against the same target does not increase the bonuses, but does extend the duration by +2 rounds. Each successive use of this ability grants your opponent a cumulative +1 bonus on his opposed check.

Does this grant you these bonuses against opponents you didn't feint? Also does this ability grant you a free feint check(It doesn't read that way, I'm just making sure)

Sign Opponent - As a standard action, you may make an attack roll against your target. If successful, instead of dealing damage you carve a symbol onto his front or backside. The subject is allowed a save (DC 15 plus your duelist level plus your intelligence modifier) or be stunned for 1 round. Additionally, the target is shaken for 1 hour afterwards, regardless of save.

You didn't mention what kind of save it is to save against this.

The DC save looks a little bit high at 10th level you can max out this PrC and the DC is going to be equivilant to an assassin death attack who took 10 levels in assassin. Maybe it could equal 10+1/2BAB+int? or instead of BAB, HD.

Can you use this ability on the same target more then once? Something about this ability being spamable doesn't feel right. And again I really can't see this working on non-humanoids, a dragon or demon thats stunned because you drew a flower on their chest?

Sucker Punch - You trick your opponent and strike with pommel/hilt of your sword. Make a feint as a swift action. If successful, you may make an additional attack this round at your highest attack bonus. This second attack deals 1d4 points of damage, and is modified by the weapons enchant and your strength. Its has a threat range of 20, and a a critical modifier of x2.

I would really love to find a way to incorporate unarmed strikes effectively into regular melee combat. You know you see the movies and they are dueling or fighting somewhere and they punch and kick each other along with fighting with weapons. With D&D mechanics you just can't do that(effectively that is).

Maybe a sucker punch would allow you a feint attempt if you succeed on an unarmed strike against a foe, or if you successfully feint a foe you get an unarmed strike.

With the name sucker punch I think something like a feint followed by attacks. This ability seems a bit abusable. Can you add precision damage to the pommel/hilt? Right now I just see this as a way of getting two sneak attacks at highest BAB after you tumble into a flanking position using acrobatic attack(would the damage of acrobatic attack apply to both?)

Riposte - At 3rd level, you learn to hold back some of your offensive prowess to enable a potent counter attack. As a full round action, make one melee attack at your highest attack bonus. Any time before the start of your next turn, you can use an immediate action to make a melee attack (using your highest attack bonus) against an enemy that attacks you in melee.

I don't understand how this could be effective. Maybe disarming? Still you could have disarmed with a full attack. At early levels this might be ok, it has the limitation of having to be attacked in order to use it, but you gain 2 attacks at highest base. Later this sort of thing doesn't really look worthwhile(especially if you're going for TWF)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
NobodyRemembersThis 08-07-07, 10:19 AM	Hit Dice: D10 Requirements: BAB +5, Balance 8 ranks, Tumble 8 ranks, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Weapon Focus (any finesseable weapon) The Duelists class skills, and the key abilities to each are: Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge [Local, Nobility & Royalty] (Int), Tumble (Dex). Skill points per level: 6+ Intelligence Modifier. Level BAB Fort Ref Will Abilities 1 +1 +0 +2 +0 Nimble, Fast Movement 2 +2 +0 +3 +0 Dueling Trick 3 +3 +1 +3 +1 Riposte, Quick Reactions 4 +4 +1 +4 +1 Dueling Trick 5 +5 +1 +4 +1 Dueling Trick, Precision CLASS FEATURES Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: the duelist gains no new weapon proficiencies and is proficient in light armor. Nimble - +1 dodge bonus to AC in light or no armor. This bonus increases by +1 at duelist levels 3 and 5 to a maximum bonus of +3. Bonus does not apply when fighting defensively. This bonus does not apply if you are flat-footed. If you already have the Fighter Special ability Nimble, your duelist levels stack with your fighter levels to determine the level of bonus gained. Fast Movement - A duelist's land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor or light armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the duelist's speed because of any load carried or armor worn. Dueling Tricks - The Duelist learns some specialized techniques he may use in combat. At levels 2, 4, and 5, the duelist selects one trick to learn. Acrobatic Attack - You use your agility to attack from a surprising angle. You must move at least 10 feet and succeed at a tumble check (DC 20). If successful, you deal +3d6 points of damage. Lethal Disarm - You have trained your disarm skills to the point that you often damage your opponents swordarm, preventing them fom dueling effectively. A succesful disarm attempt deals 2 points of strength damage and the opponent is unable to use that hand to hold objects, weapons, or shields until the wound is tended. Stopping the bleeding requires a heal check with a DC of 10 plus the duelists base attack bonus. Sharp Wit - You use your words to give you an edge in combat. Make a feint as a swift action. If successful, you gain a +2 competence bonus to hit and damage, and a +2 dodge bonus to AC for 2 rounds. Each successive use of this ability against the same target does not increase the bonuses, but does extend the duration by +2 rounds. Each successive use of this ability grants your opponent a cumulative +1 bonus on his opposed check. Sign Opponent - As a standard action, you may make an attack roll against your target. If successful, instead of dealing damage you carve a symbol onto his front or backside. The subject is allowed a save (DC 15 plus your duelist level plus your intelligence modifier) or be stunned for 1 round. Additionally, the target is shaken for 1 hour afterwards, regardless of save. Sucker Punch - You trick your opponent and strike with pommel/hilt of your sword. Make a feint as a swift action. If successful, you may make an additional attack this round at your highest attack bonus. This second attack deals 1d4 points of damage, and is modified by the weapons enchant and your strength. Its has a threat range of 20, and a a critical modifier of x2. Riposte - At 3rd level, you learn to hold back some of your offensive prowess to enable a potent counter attack. As a full round action, make one melee attack at your highest attack bonus. Any time before the start of your next turn, you can use an immediate action to make a melee attack (using your highest attack bonus) against an enemy that attacks you in melee. Quick Reactions - The duelist gains a +2 bonus to initiative that stacks with the improved intiative feat. Precision - You deal +3 points of physical damage with your melee attacks. Should the duelist score a critical hit, this extra damage is not multiplied. This damage is applied to only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to this additional damage. The duelist must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A duelist cannot deal this additional damage while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach. Your Duelist levels stack with fighter levels to determine the bonus granted by the fighter special ability precision - the duelist precision stacks with the fighter special ability.
NobodyRemembersThis 08-07-07, 10:20 AM	Any thoughts about the balance of this class?
NobodyRemembersThis 08-08-07, 11:21 PM	:bump: Nothing?
NobodyRemembersThis 08-13-07, 12:18 AM	:bump: Nothing?Still nothing?
IdleAltruism 08-13-07, 12:45 AM	The dueling tricks need to be upgraded, as they are they aren't very useful. No matter how classic sign opponent may be, it just doesn't work against alot of monsters. This seems to be a swashbuckler type class but doesn't really have a social aspect to it. I'd add intimidate to the prerequisites instead of balance and add new uses for it. I'd also add Einhander to the prerequisites just because I think every duelist type should have it(it might not be the greatest feat ever but flavor wise its awesome) Maybe make slight of hand a useful skill for feinting and special maneuvers involving feinting enemies? Currently your version is pretty underpowered.
NobodyRemembersThis 08-13-07, 01:30 AM	Hmmmm. Ok. What do you sugest for the abilities? How would I make them stronger?
IdleAltruism 08-13-07, 12:35 PM	Well right now the abilities don't do much and can be countered way to easily. Also the sign opponent doesn't allow any kind of save so you can carve your name into a dragons backside and make it run in fear? Granted they are only frightened for one round but if they have teleport they have to use it. Disarming is nice, but you don't have a huge bonus to disarming. You aren't a true fighter where you can spend all the feats you want on these sort of things and you have no substantial bonuses to make you an effective disarmer. Against most encounters the two disarming abilities aren't going to be effective. You can enter this PrC at level 6, look at the CR 6+ monsters. It may be a duelist class but it should still be effective in normal play. I suggest scraping the disarm idea(and drop weapon focus, its just a waste of a feat here). And go for something more substantial, like new feinting abilities. Maybe add precision damage on a successful feint? Maybe add options to gain dodge bonuses against feinted targets. Also tumbling and sleight of hand could be incorporated somehow. Bonuses on feinting if you tumble past a foe, additional flanking bonuses if you tumble past a foe, or a free feint attempt if you successfully tumble past a foe. Theres quite a few things you could do with it.
Athaal 08-13-07, 05:37 PM	Some of the abilities are unique however i feel that d10 with medium armor is too good for a duelist, not only in name, but in AC bonus. Nimble - +1 dodge bonus to AC in light or no armor. Fast Movement - A duelist's land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor One of them needs to be changed. just thought i'd point out I like the dueling tricks - good idea
NobodyRemembersThis 08-14-07, 07:49 AM	Made some changes, and am rethinking the prerequisites. More later, but how does it look now?
Aryxbez 08-14-07, 08:08 AM	Well NRT, just added you to my buddy list, hope you don't mind. Well the class looks decent, the skill selection probably has some faults, such as there being no Diplomacy, Sense motive in there. As far as Requirements go, why not just change weapon focus to Weapon Finesse? since you are going to have to have a finnesable weapon anyway. Ways to make it more powerful would probably to give it a precision/sneak attack Progression. As well as perhaps the tricks being something like the feats from Complete Scoundrel? Since the Sucker punch is almost similar to throat punch. I like the Slashing Disarm trick, pretty good. Also ensure to make the whole armor wearing thing consistent, if you want them wearing medium armor, then do so if not then change it. Also NRT, if you were needing replies to your thread in the beginning, why did you not PM me? As I am always glad to help someone in need.
NobodyRemembersThis 08-14-07, 09:34 AM	I added you too - I thought I had done so earlier. :blush: I can't believe I didn't think of PMing for assitance. smacks forehead :(
gullas 08-14-07, 11:01 AM	Nice , i really didn't like the wotc duelist but this is a prc I would want to play:)
NobodyRemembersThis 08-14-07, 12:29 PM	I changed the abilities up a bit as well for the tricks and added a new one. :)
IdleAltruism 08-14-07, 01:20 PM	:Acrobatic Attack - You use your agility to attack from a surprising angle. You must move at least 10 feet and succeed at a tumble check (DC 20). If successful, you deal +3d6 points of damage. I have a few questions about these abilities. Does the acrobatic strike count as precision damage? I suggest just leaving it as a normal tumble check, so they can use any form of tumbling(going through opponents square) to gain this benefit. Lethal Disarm - You have trained your disarm skills to the point that you often damage your opponents swordarm, preventing them fom dueling effectively. A succesful disarm attempt deals 2 points of strength damage and the opponent is unable to use that hand to hold objects, weapons, or shields until the wound is tended. Stopping the bleeding requires a heal check with a DC of 10 plus the duelists base attack bonus. What kind of magical healing can repair this? Could a cure light heal the str damage? Or just a heal check or something like restoration? Sharp Wit - You use your words to give you an edge in combat. Make a feint as a swift action. If successful, you gain a +2 competence bonus to hit and damage, and a +2 dodge bonus to AC for 2 rounds. Each successive use of this ability against the same target does not increase the bonuses, but does extend the duration by +2 rounds. Each successive use of this ability grants your opponent a cumulative +1 bonus on his opposed check. Does this grant you these bonuses against opponents you didn't feint? Also does this ability grant you a free feint check(It doesn't read that way, I'm just making sure) Sign Opponent - As a standard action, you may make an attack roll against your target. If successful, instead of dealing damage you carve a symbol onto his front or backside. The subject is allowed a save (DC 15 plus your duelist level plus your intelligence modifier) or be stunned for 1 round. Additionally, the target is shaken for 1 hour afterwards, regardless of save. You didn't mention what kind of save it is to save against this. The DC save looks a little bit high at 10th level you can max out this PrC and the DC is going to be equivilant to an assassin death attack who took 10 levels in assassin. Maybe it could equal 10+1/2BAB+int? or instead of BAB, HD. Can you use this ability on the same target more then once? Something about this ability being spamable doesn't feel right. And again I really can't see this working on non-humanoids, a dragon or demon thats stunned because you drew a flower on their chest? Sucker Punch - You trick your opponent and strike with pommel/hilt of your sword. Make a feint as a swift action. If successful, you may make an additional attack this round at your highest attack bonus. This second attack deals 1d4 points of damage, and is modified by the weapons enchant and your strength. Its has a threat range of 20, and a a critical modifier of x2. I would really love to find a way to incorporate unarmed strikes effectively into regular melee combat. You know you see the movies and they are dueling or fighting somewhere and they punch and kick each other along with fighting with weapons. With D&D mechanics you just can't do that(effectively that is). Maybe a sucker punch would allow you a feint attempt if you succeed on an unarmed strike against a foe, or if you successfully feint a foe you get an unarmed strike. With the name sucker punch I think something like a feint followed by attacks. This ability seems a bit abusable. Can you add precision damage to the pommel/hilt? Right now I just see this as a way of getting two sneak attacks at highest BAB after you tumble into a flanking position using acrobatic attack(would the damage of acrobatic attack apply to both?) Riposte - At 3rd level, you learn to hold back some of your offensive prowess to enable a potent counter attack. As a full round action, make one melee attack at your highest attack bonus. Any time before the start of your next turn, you can use an immediate action to make a melee attack (using your highest attack bonus) against an enemy that attacks you in melee. I don't understand how this could be effective. Maybe disarming? Still you could have disarmed with a full attack. At early levels this might be ok, it has the limitation of having to be attacked in order to use it, but you gain 2 attacks at highest base. Later this sort of thing doesn't really look worthwhile(especially if you're going for TWF)