Oath Breaker - warlock/binder [Archive] - Wizards Community

Oath Breaker - warlock/binder [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
InkBlot
10-04-07, 07:00 PM Oath Breaker
"Lies? Betrayal? I'm being more honest now than ever."
-- Honril Tharad, changeling spy and Oath Breaker

Those who make pacts in exchange for power often live to regret the deal. Others were planning betrayal all along. An Oath Breaker has chosen freedom over fidelity.

(I'm no good at flavor text.)

HD d6

Requirements:
Alignment: Any Non-Lawful
Feat: Expel Vestige
Skills: Bluff 8 ranks, Intimidate 4 ranks
Special: The ability to bind 2nd level vestiges, 2d6 Eldritch Blast.

Class Skills: Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Gather Information, intimidate, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Religion), Knowledge (The Planes), Profession, Sense Motive, and Spellcraft
Skill Points Per Level: 2 + Int modifier

Table: The Oath Breaker
Fort Ref Will
Level BAB Save Save Save Special
1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Warlock Abilities, Soul Binding,
Seize Power
2nd +1 +1 +1 +3 Seize Power
3rd +2 +1 +1 +3 Blast Invocation, Expel Vestige 2/day
4th +3 +1 +1 +4 Seize Power
5th +3 +2 +2 +4 Blast Invocation, Slippery Mind
6th +4 +2 +2 +5 Seize Power
7th +5 +2 +2 +5 Blast Invocation, Expel Vestige 3/day
8th +6 +4 +4 +6 Seize Power
9th +6 +4 +4 +6 Willful Mind
10th +7 +4 +4 +7 Supernatural Blast

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the oath breaker.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: You gain no new weapon or armor proficiencies.

Warlock Abilities (Sp): At each oath breaker level, your eldritch blast and invocations improve as if you had also gained a level in the warlock class. Thus, your oath breaker levels and warlock levels stack for the purpose of determining your eldritch blast damage, your eldritch blast caster level, your invocation caster level, and the grade of invocations available to you. You do not, however, learn any new invocations or gain any other benefit a warlock would have gained.

Your warlock powers become permanently bound to your soul. They cannot be revoked by any outside source, even if they were previously dependent on a pact with a fiend, fey, or other powerful creature. This does not give you any benefit against antimagic fields, dispel magic, or spell resistance.

Soul Binding (Su): At each oath breaker level, your soul binding ability improves as if you had also gained a level in the binder class. Thus, your oath breaker levels and binder levels stack for the purpose of determining your bonus on binding checks, the effectiveness of your vestige granted abilities, and your ability to bind higher-level vestiges. You do not, however, gain the ability to bind a greater number of vestiges or gain any other benefit a binder would have gained.

Seize Power (Su): An oath breaker can seize power from a vestige, and use it as he pleases without abiding by any pact. At 1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th, and 8th level, you permanently gain one granted supernatural ability from any vestige you have previously bound. The ability becomes part of you, and is not dependent on a vestige or any other outside source. You can use the ability as if you were bound to it's vestige, no matter what vestiges you are or are not bound to.

You can not use the ability more often than normal. If the ability requires you to show the sign of the vestige, you also gain the ability to show or hide that sign as a swift action.

Once you seize a power from a vestige, you take a -5 penalty to all binding checks with that vestige. This penalty stacks with itself if you seize more than one power from the same vestige.

Seizing a power from a vestige does not affect what powers that vestige can grant to other binders.

Expel Vestige (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, you can use your Expel Vestige feat an additional time per day. Each time you expel a vestige within the same day the penalty to binding checks increases by 5.

At 7th level, you can use your Expel Vestige feat three times per day.

Blast Invocation (Sp): At 3rd, 5th, and 6th level you learn an additional blast shape or eldritch essence invocation.

Slippery Mind (Ex): At 5th level you gain the ability to wriggle free from magical effects that would otherwise control or compel you. If you fail your saving throw against an enchantment spell, telepathy power, or similar effect, then you can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. You get only this one extra chance to succeed on your saving throw.

Willful Mind (Ex): At 9th level your willfulness allows you to eventually wriggle free from even the most powerful mental control. If you fail the additional saving throw granted by your Slippery Mind ability, then you can retry again after five rounds. You can continue to retry your saving throw once every five rounds until you succeed.

Supernatural Invocation (Su): At 10th level you learn to infuse your eldritch blast with the supernatural power you have wrested from vestiges. Your eldritch blast becomes a supernatural ability. Spell resistance no longer applies to your eldritch blast. You no longer provoke attacks of opportunity for using your eldritch blast, but you still provoke attacks of opportunities for making ranged attacks with it.

Although blast shape and eldritch essence invocations remain spell-like abilities, they are not affected by spell resistance since it is only the eldritch blast which actually affects your foes.
QuarianRex
10-05-07, 02:38 AM I like it but it seems a little on the powerful side. The Seize Power ability is very cool but perhaps lower it to once every 3 levels (1st, 4th, and 7th levels) as it currently provides a little too much (letting you cherry-pick the best abilities from 3-5 vestiges in addition to the vestiges you can normally bind) for a dual caster class, IMO.

You might want to lower the HD to d6 to counter the supernatural power of the class. Finally, I might suggest that the PrC gets a penalty to binding checks equal to the PrC level (or perhaps PrC level/2). That way it progresses your binding abilities but does not advance your ability to make good pacts, as vestiges other than the ones that you have directly violated hear of your Oath breaking ways.

Just some thoughts on how to balance the significant advantages that the class provides in addition to dual progression.

Btw, don't think that I'm being overly critical, I'm just trying to make some suggestion on what I think it would take to actually get this cool concept into a game.
InkBlot
10-05-07, 11:45 AM I might lower the HD. At first I was afraid of gimping it with too low a hit die. But as a binder there's tricks to boost your HP and reduce damage, and as a warlock you have no need to be in melee. So it shouldn't be too bad.

Instead of a penalty equal to class level, I'd just make class level not stack for the purpose of binding checks. But part of the flavor of it is that an oathbreaker is very good at lying. Also, how do vestiges hear about anything? They don't exist when a binder isn't summoning them. It's still not a bad idea as a balancing mechanism.

I like it but it seems a little on the powerful side. The Seize Power ability is very cool but perhaps lower it to once every 3 levels (1st, 4th, and 7th levels) as it currently provides a little too much (letting you cherry-pick the best abilities from 3-5 vestiges in addition to the vestiges you can normally bind) for a dual caster class, IMO.
The thing is, a straight up binder can bind four vestiges at once. An Oath Breaker can bind two at most.

Seize power allows you to permanently gain the abilities of about one and a half vestiges, or cherry pick abilities from a handful of vestiges. I figured one and a half cherry picked vestiges was about equal to two full vestiges.

And it doesn't advance your normal invocations, just your eldritch blast. Eldritch blast seems to me to be about as strong as the major ability of your highest level vestige, even considering what blast shapes and eldritch essences can do.

I just realized that I didn't look at this PrC from the perspective of a Warlock.

Thanks for your comments. You really helped.
QuarianRex
10-05-07, 09:07 PM My bad, I didn't notice that the Warlock progression didn't advance Invocation acquisition. That does explain much of the class. Please disregard some of my previous babbling.

Also, Binders get their 4th vestige at 20th level. Its a capstone ability that probably should not have any bearing on balancing the class. Its like balancing a Monk prestige class based on the Perfect Self 20th level Monk ability.

Still, this class is an interesting mix of power and poverty. It seems like you are balancing this class against a primarily Warlock build (say of Binder 1/ Warlock 9/ Oath Breaker 10) essentially trading 3 Invocations for the Seize Power ability. And I have to say that now that I know that it does not advance Invocation acquisition (but does advance access, nice touch) that seems like a fairly interesting trade-off.

The problem that I see is if you are going mainly Binder. For the cost of a one level dip in Warlock you now have nearly full Binder progression, a 6d6 Supernatural Eldritch Blast (with some versatility thanks to 3 free Blast Shapes/Essences) and the ability to bind 3 Vestiges and permanently have the best powers of 3-5 other Vestiges (because if a Vestige has more than 2 abilities that you want you'll just bind it).

If you want to focus on Warlock the class as is presents a very interesting trade off. If you are focusing on Binder the class seems to be a no-brainer boost in power that gives a massive power boost at virtually no cost. That may need to be addressed. Perhaps requiring Eldritch Blast 2d6? A Binder taking a 3 level hit for this class would need to make considerations akin to his Warlock counterpart.
bkdubs123
10-05-07, 09:21 PM Agreed, the biggest problem I saw was the very slim requirements for this PrC. Aside from that the abilities are all very cool, functional, and flavorful for the two classes being combined.

I recommend also taking out a level of EB and Soul Binding progression as well to add to the balancing factors for this class. Otherwise, I really like this PrC. Kudos!
InkBlot
10-06-07, 01:06 AM If you are focusing on Binder the class seems to be a no-brainer boost in power that gives a massive power boost at virtually no cost. That may need to be addressed. Perhaps requiring Eldritch Blast 2d6?
Agreed, the biggest problem I saw was the very slim requirements for this PrC.

OK, eldritch blast 2d6 it is!

I'll also lower the HD to a d6 just because.

edit: I also put in "ability to bind 2nd level vestiges." Note that you can do this with only one level of Binder if you take a certain feat (can't recall the name at the moment).
ilikefrogs
10-06-07, 09:38 AM Supernatural Invocation (Su): At 10th level you learn to infuse your eldritch blast with the supernatural power you have wrested from vestiges. Your eldritch blast becomes a supernatural ability. Spell resistance no longer applies to your eldritch blast, and you no longer provoke attacks of opportunity for using it.

You still provoke attacks of opportunities for making ranged attacks, and for using eldritch essence or blast shape invocations (which remain spell-like abilities). Although invocations which affect your eldritch blast remain spell-like abilities, they are not affected by spell resistance since only the eldritch blast actually affects your foes.

What about an EB that has a blast shape or essence added to it? Does that provoke an AoO or not?
Mordin
10-06-07, 10:36 AM This sounds like a cool class but I just barely received Tome of Magic and am not very familiar with the binder. So I’m not in a position to comment on balance yet but I wanted to comment so I could mark your post.
InkBlot
10-06-07, 10:43 AM What about an EB that has a blast shape or essence added to it? Does that provoke an AoO or not?
Eldritch essence and blast shape invocations are still spell-like abilities, so you still provoke if you use one.
QuarianRex
10-06-07, 12:09 PM Soul Binding progression as well to add to the balancing factors for this class. Otherwise, I really like this PrC. Kudos!

This isn't really necessary with these two classes. Reduced progression is usually just a trade-off for spellcasters to delay access to the game breaking high level spells. Warlocks and Binders don't have the same issues at higher levels. They may get some cool abilities but nothing that would make most DMs cry like standard spellcasters.
Saedar
10-06-07, 12:51 PM Eldritch essence and blast shape invocations are still spell-like abilities, so you still provoke if you use one.

My main issue with this, and is something I've always had issues with in regards to the Warlock, is that Essences and Shapes act more like options that affect the EB, rather than Spell-Likes in their own right. You can add a Shape and an Essence at the same time, so, at the very least, they are Spell-Likes which take a free action to apply (since Swift would only allow one), which would not provoke in the first place as free/swift/immediate actions don't provoke. (Can't think of where that rule is off the top of my head.)
InkBlot
10-06-07, 06:58 PM If you can find that rule, I'll edit the OP to reflect it. I'll look for it myself as well, but I probably won't have the time to tonight.
bkdubs123
10-06-07, 07:22 PM yes, they modify the EB, but I would still say that its fine to say that a "standard" EB does not provoke, and is supernatural, while a "modified" EB can provoke and IS spell-like.
Saedar
10-07-07, 01:06 AM Ok, this is going to be a bit of rule stew, so to speak.

My Support For Why Essences and Shapes Don't Provoke:
1.) http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=405215&highlight=eldritch+essence+action
Here, Rich Baker describes how he views that Essences and Shapes take so little of an action that he wouldn't even consider it a free action. The example he uses to compare is how much damage to gain from Power Attack.
2.) On Pg. 207 of the Monster Manual 3, there is a section about how casting spells or using spell-likes as swift actions doesn't provoke.
3.) On Pg. 139 of the PHB, it describes how there are some actions that are not actions in and of themselves but instead exist as parts of other actions. Specifically, it uses the example of UMD when activating at item.
4.) Thus, if 1 and 3 are true, and a "No Action" effect is initiated, and this action is even faster than a swift action (Refer to 2 about swift actions) which does not provoke when casting, then would not the use of Essences or Shapes to modify an EB that does not provoke, also not provoke? I would think so.
InkBlot
10-07-07, 02:28 AM That's enough to warrant removing mention of them provoking. I'll leave the debate over whether or not they provoke up to other people. I don't think it effects the balance of the class much (casting on the defensive is easy enough, you'll take an AoO from making a ranged attack anyway, and it's easy enough to step out of a threatened area before blasting).
Majick
10-07-07, 02:43 AM I love this class as is. It seems almost perfect to me. In fact, the only thing that i thought may or may not be a little odd is the inclusion of extra blast shape for eldritch blast. Arn't blast shapes invocations, or like, don't they count as invocations if you select one?

But aside from that, super-mega-hella-awesome man :D
Im_Hiding_In_Your_Closet
10-07-07, 03:38 AM Agreed. Really neat. I'm a huge fan of Binders and Warlocks alike.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
InkBlot 10-04-07, 07:00 PM	Oath Breaker "Lies? Betrayal? I'm being more honest now than ever." -- Honril Tharad, changeling spy and Oath Breaker Those who make pacts in exchange for power often live to regret the deal. Others were planning betrayal all along. An Oath Breaker has chosen freedom over fidelity. (I'm no good at flavor text.) HD d6 Requirements: Alignment: Any Non-Lawful Feat: Expel Vestige Skills: Bluff 8 ranks, Intimidate 4 ranks Special: The ability to bind 2nd level vestiges, 2d6 Eldritch Blast. Class Skills: Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Gather Information, intimidate, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Religion), Knowledge (The Planes), Profession, Sense Motive, and Spellcraft Skill Points Per Level: 2 + Int modifier Table: The Oath Breaker Fort Ref Will Level BAB Save Save Save Special 1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Warlock Abilities, Soul Binding, Seize Power 2nd +1 +1 +1 +3 Seize Power 3rd +2 +1 +1 +3 Blast Invocation, Expel Vestige 2/day 4th +3 +1 +1 +4 Seize Power 5th +3 +2 +2 +4 Blast Invocation, Slippery Mind 6th +4 +2 +2 +5 Seize Power 7th +5 +2 +2 +5 Blast Invocation, Expel Vestige 3/day 8th +6 +4 +4 +6 Seize Power 9th +6 +4 +4 +6 Willful Mind 10th +7 +4 +4 +7 Supernatural Blast Class Features All of the following are class features of the oath breaker. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: You gain no new weapon or armor proficiencies. Warlock Abilities (Sp): At each oath breaker level, your eldritch blast and invocations improve as if you had also gained a level in the warlock class. Thus, your oath breaker levels and warlock levels stack for the purpose of determining your eldritch blast damage, your eldritch blast caster level, your invocation caster level, and the grade of invocations available to you. You do not, however, learn any new invocations or gain any other benefit a warlock would have gained. Your warlock powers become permanently bound to your soul. They cannot be revoked by any outside source, even if they were previously dependent on a pact with a fiend, fey, or other powerful creature. This does not give you any benefit against antimagic fields, dispel magic, or spell resistance. Soul Binding (Su): At each oath breaker level, your soul binding ability improves as if you had also gained a level in the binder class. Thus, your oath breaker levels and binder levels stack for the purpose of determining your bonus on binding checks, the effectiveness of your vestige granted abilities, and your ability to bind higher-level vestiges. You do not, however, gain the ability to bind a greater number of vestiges or gain any other benefit a binder would have gained. Seize Power (Su): An oath breaker can seize power from a vestige, and use it as he pleases without abiding by any pact. At 1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th, and 8th level, you permanently gain one granted supernatural ability from any vestige you have previously bound. The ability becomes part of you, and is not dependent on a vestige or any other outside source. You can use the ability as if you were bound to it's vestige, no matter what vestiges you are or are not bound to. You can not use the ability more often than normal. If the ability requires you to show the sign of the vestige, you also gain the ability to show or hide that sign as a swift action. Once you seize a power from a vestige, you take a -5 penalty to all binding checks with that vestige. This penalty stacks with itself if you seize more than one power from the same vestige. Seizing a power from a vestige does not affect what powers that vestige can grant to other binders. Expel Vestige (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, you can use your Expel Vestige feat an additional time per day. Each time you expel a vestige within the same day the penalty to binding checks increases by 5. At 7th level, you can use your Expel Vestige feat three times per day. Blast Invocation (Sp): At 3rd, 5th, and 6th level you learn an additional blast shape or eldritch essence invocation. Slippery Mind (Ex): At 5th level you gain the ability to wriggle free from magical effects that would otherwise control or compel you. If you fail your saving throw against an enchantment spell, telepathy power, or similar effect, then you can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. You get only this one extra chance to succeed on your saving throw. Willful Mind (Ex): At 9th level your willfulness allows you to eventually wriggle free from even the most powerful mental control. If you fail the additional saving throw granted by your Slippery Mind ability, then you can retry again after five rounds. You can continue to retry your saving throw once every five rounds until you succeed. Supernatural Invocation (Su): At 10th level you learn to infuse your eldritch blast with the supernatural power you have wrested from vestiges. Your eldritch blast becomes a supernatural ability. Spell resistance no longer applies to your eldritch blast. You no longer provoke attacks of opportunity for using your eldritch blast, but you still provoke attacks of opportunities for making ranged attacks with it. Although blast shape and eldritch essence invocations remain spell-like abilities, they are not affected by spell resistance since it is only the eldritch blast which actually affects your foes.
QuarianRex 10-05-07, 02:38 AM	I like it but it seems a little on the powerful side. The Seize Power ability is very cool but perhaps lower it to once every 3 levels (1st, 4th, and 7th levels) as it currently provides a little too much (letting you cherry-pick the best abilities from 3-5 vestiges in addition to the vestiges you can normally bind) for a dual caster class, IMO. You might want to lower the HD to d6 to counter the supernatural power of the class. Finally, I might suggest that the PrC gets a penalty to binding checks equal to the PrC level (or perhaps PrC level/2). That way it progresses your binding abilities but does not advance your ability to make good pacts, as vestiges other than the ones that you have directly violated hear of your Oath breaking ways. Just some thoughts on how to balance the significant advantages that the class provides in addition to dual progression. Btw, don't think that I'm being overly critical, I'm just trying to make some suggestion on what I think it would take to actually get this cool concept into a game.
InkBlot 10-05-07, 11:45 AM	I might lower the HD. At first I was afraid of gimping it with too low a hit die. But as a binder there's tricks to boost your HP and reduce damage, and as a warlock you have no need to be in melee. So it shouldn't be too bad. Instead of a penalty equal to class level, I'd just make class level not stack for the purpose of binding checks. But part of the flavor of it is that an oathbreaker is very good at lying. Also, how do vestiges hear about anything? They don't exist when a binder isn't summoning them. It's still not a bad idea as a balancing mechanism. I like it but it seems a little on the powerful side. The Seize Power ability is very cool but perhaps lower it to once every 3 levels (1st, 4th, and 7th levels) as it currently provides a little too much (letting you cherry-pick the best abilities from 3-5 vestiges in addition to the vestiges you can normally bind) for a dual caster class, IMO. The thing is, a straight up binder can bind four vestiges at once. An Oath Breaker can bind two at most. Seize power allows you to permanently gain the abilities of about one and a half vestiges, or cherry pick abilities from a handful of vestiges. I figured one and a half cherry picked vestiges was about equal to two full vestiges. And it doesn't advance your normal invocations, just your eldritch blast. Eldritch blast seems to me to be about as strong as the major ability of your highest level vestige, even considering what blast shapes and eldritch essences can do. I just realized that I didn't look at this PrC from the perspective of a Warlock. Thanks for your comments. You really helped.
QuarianRex 10-05-07, 09:07 PM	My bad, I didn't notice that the Warlock progression didn't advance Invocation acquisition. That does explain much of the class. Please disregard some of my previous babbling. Also, Binders get their 4th vestige at 20th level. Its a capstone ability that probably should not have any bearing on balancing the class. Its like balancing a Monk prestige class based on the Perfect Self 20th level Monk ability. Still, this class is an interesting mix of power and poverty. It seems like you are balancing this class against a primarily Warlock build (say of Binder 1/ Warlock 9/ Oath Breaker 10) essentially trading 3 Invocations for the Seize Power ability. And I have to say that now that I know that it does not advance Invocation acquisition (but does advance access, nice touch) that seems like a fairly interesting trade-off. The problem that I see is if you are going mainly Binder. For the cost of a one level dip in Warlock you now have nearly full Binder progression, a 6d6 Supernatural Eldritch Blast (with some versatility thanks to 3 free Blast Shapes/Essences) and the ability to bind 3 Vestiges and permanently have the best powers of 3-5 other Vestiges (because if a Vestige has more than 2 abilities that you want you'll just bind it). If you want to focus on Warlock the class as is presents a very interesting trade off. If you are focusing on Binder the class seems to be a no-brainer boost in power that gives a massive power boost at virtually no cost. That may need to be addressed. Perhaps requiring Eldritch Blast 2d6? A Binder taking a 3 level hit for this class would need to make considerations akin to his Warlock counterpart.
bkdubs123 10-05-07, 09:21 PM	Agreed, the biggest problem I saw was the very slim requirements for this PrC. Aside from that the abilities are all very cool, functional, and flavorful for the two classes being combined. I recommend also taking out a level of EB and Soul Binding progression as well to add to the balancing factors for this class. Otherwise, I really like this PrC. Kudos!
InkBlot 10-06-07, 01:06 AM	If you are focusing on Binder the class seems to be a no-brainer boost in power that gives a massive power boost at virtually no cost. That may need to be addressed. Perhaps requiring Eldritch Blast 2d6? Agreed, the biggest problem I saw was the very slim requirements for this PrC. OK, eldritch blast 2d6 it is! I'll also lower the HD to a d6 just because. edit: I also put in "ability to bind 2nd level vestiges." Note that you can do this with only one level of Binder if you take a certain feat (can't recall the name at the moment).
ilikefrogs 10-06-07, 09:38 AM	Supernatural Invocation (Su): At 10th level you learn to infuse your eldritch blast with the supernatural power you have wrested from vestiges. Your eldritch blast becomes a supernatural ability. Spell resistance no longer applies to your eldritch blast, and you no longer provoke attacks of opportunity for using it. You still provoke attacks of opportunities for making ranged attacks, and for using eldritch essence or blast shape invocations (which remain spell-like abilities). Although invocations which affect your eldritch blast remain spell-like abilities, they are not affected by spell resistance since only the eldritch blast actually affects your foes. What about an EB that has a blast shape or essence added to it? Does that provoke an AoO or not?
Mordin 10-06-07, 10:36 AM	This sounds like a cool class but I just barely received Tome of Magic and am not very familiar with the binder. So I’m not in a position to comment on balance yet but I wanted to comment so I could mark your post.
InkBlot 10-06-07, 10:43 AM	What about an EB that has a blast shape or essence added to it? Does that provoke an AoO or not? Eldritch essence and blast shape invocations are still spell-like abilities, so you still provoke if you use one.
QuarianRex 10-06-07, 12:09 PM	Soul Binding progression as well to add to the balancing factors for this class. Otherwise, I really like this PrC. Kudos! This isn't really necessary with these two classes. Reduced progression is usually just a trade-off for spellcasters to delay access to the game breaking high level spells. Warlocks and Binders don't have the same issues at higher levels. They may get some cool abilities but nothing that would make most DMs cry like standard spellcasters.
Saedar 10-06-07, 12:51 PM	Eldritch essence and blast shape invocations are still spell-like abilities, so you still provoke if you use one. My main issue with this, and is something I've always had issues with in regards to the Warlock, is that Essences and Shapes act more like options that affect the EB, rather than Spell-Likes in their own right. You can add a Shape and an Essence at the same time, so, at the very least, they are Spell-Likes which take a free action to apply (since Swift would only allow one), which would not provoke in the first place as free/swift/immediate actions don't provoke. (Can't think of where that rule is off the top of my head.)
InkBlot 10-06-07, 06:58 PM	If you can find that rule, I'll edit the OP to reflect it. I'll look for it myself as well, but I probably won't have the time to tonight.
bkdubs123 10-06-07, 07:22 PM	yes, they modify the EB, but I would still say that its fine to say that a "standard" EB does not provoke, and is supernatural, while a "modified" EB can provoke and IS spell-like.
Saedar 10-07-07, 01:06 AM	Ok, this is going to be a bit of rule stew, so to speak. My Support For Why Essences and Shapes Don't Provoke: 1.) http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=405215&highlight=eldritch+essence+action Here, Rich Baker describes how he views that Essences and Shapes take so little of an action that he wouldn't even consider it a free action. The example he uses to compare is how much damage to gain from Power Attack. 2.) On Pg. 207 of the Monster Manual 3, there is a section about how casting spells or using spell-likes as swift actions doesn't provoke. 3.) On Pg. 139 of the PHB, it describes how there are some actions that are not actions in and of themselves but instead exist as parts of other actions. Specifically, it uses the example of UMD when activating at item. 4.) Thus, if 1 and 3 are true, and a "No Action" effect is initiated, and this action is even faster than a swift action (Refer to 2 about swift actions) which does not provoke when casting, then would not the use of Essences or Shapes to modify an EB that does not provoke, also not provoke? I would think so.
InkBlot 10-07-07, 02:28 AM	That's enough to warrant removing mention of them provoking. I'll leave the debate over whether or not they provoke up to other people. I don't think it effects the balance of the class much (casting on the defensive is easy enough, you'll take an AoO from making a ranged attack anyway, and it's easy enough to step out of a threatened area before blasting).
Majick 10-07-07, 02:43 AM	I love this class as is. It seems almost perfect to me. In fact, the only thing that i thought may or may not be a little odd is the inclusion of extra blast shape for eldritch blast. Arn't blast shapes invocations, or like, don't they count as invocations if you select one? But aside from that, super-mega-hella-awesome man :D
Im_Hiding_In_Your_Closet 10-07-07, 03:38 AM	Agreed. Really neat. I'm a huge fan of Binders and Warlocks alike.