Post/Author/DateTime	Post
obsidianrose 01-28-07, 12:10 AM	I really like the flavor, but I find my gray guard, who infiltrated a thieves guild as a supposed blackguard posing as a paladin a bit too restrained, as right now, he's paladin 3/rogue 1/gray guard 1. My useful gray guard ability is a bit too hampered, and I don't have any spells yet, but I have to act evil or they'll distrust me. What can I do to amp him up, and what's the general opinion on gray guards?
Gothenem 01-29-07, 06:28 PM	I really like the flavor, but I find my gray guard, who infiltrated a thieves guild as a supposed blackguard posing as a paladin a bit too restrained, as right now, he's paladin 3/rogue 1/gray guard 1. My useful gray guard ability is a bit too hampered, and I don't have any spells yet, but I have to act evil or they'll distrust me. What can I do to amp him up, and what's the general opinion on gray guards? I dislike the Grey Guard intentely. The entire class is revolved around the concept of "Let make Paladin less goody-two shoes". A stupid concept IMHO. That said, structurally, the class depends entirely on how the DM adjucates Evil and "Done in the Cause of Righteousness" and thus it can vary from being a necessary addition to being worthless. Another reason I dislike the class so much, is that it goes away from what a Paladin stands for. The entire class is designed to go around a rules mechanic, without really adressing the role-playing mechanic. I have outlawed the class in my games because it goes against what the Paladin is about IMO.
Radijs 01-29-07, 06:33 PM	Looking at the class I both like and dislike it. On one side I think its something that makes it possible for paladins to actually exist. On the other hand it can be a nightmare if a player who can't really handly the LGness reaches level 10 in the prc and gleefully shouts "Now I'll never lose my powers!"
Ventilatory_Threshold 01-29-07, 07:36 PM	Basically, this class lets you say: "I GET RESULTS, DAMNIT!" What's not to like about that?
ruff0126 01-29-07, 07:39 PM	It reminds me of a no nonsence cop who says f@#k it and just breaks heads, tortures people but is still doing it for the betterment of society, good.
Krusk 01-29-07, 07:43 PM	I really like the class. Its basically for palidins who over time start to realize their ideals are unreachable, and LG cannot always get the job done. There are some jobs that require that extra touch of ____ whatever that may be. thats where these come in, basically i see a gray gaurd as the palidins of the border country of great cities. The straight 20 palidins live in the city doing their job good and well. But if they were brought out into an area of lawlessness such as the American West for no better example off the top of my head. They would be at a loss, some situations require a diffrent approach and thats where these guys come in. They still fight for law and good, but not in such a clean cut way as their palidin brothers. I guess its the diffrence between a city cop, and a western sherrif.
Gothenem 01-29-07, 08:11 PM	It reminds me of a no nonsence cop who says f@#k it and just breaks heads, tortures people but is still doing it for the betterment of society, good. But not LG, and not Paladinish. I have no problems with a "bust their heads" type of character, but then, Don't play a paladin. Or better yet, pick up Unearthed Arcana and play a "Paladin of Freedom", Laws be-damned. You want to go the torture route? Play a bloody Paladin of Tyranny or a LE Blackguard. Don't ruin the Paladin with a PrC like the Gray Guard. It just destroys whatever flavor the paladin has. Rules wise, the class is hard to adjucate between "What is in the Cause of Righteousness" and what is not. Other than that, the class is mechanically balanced. It just kills the flavor of Paladins everywhere!!!!!!
Ventilatory_Threshold 01-29-07, 08:39 PM	It just destroys whatever flavor the paladin has. No, it diverts the flavor into a new concept. It basically becomes a different kind of Paladin.
Pangeon 01-29-07, 08:50 PM	I personally love the idea of the Grey Guard. I've always wanted to play the badass, "do whatever it takes," kind of paladin, and the rules as written don't really allow for that. Whether you like the mechanics or not, the flavor of the class is purely awesome.
Gothenem 01-29-07, 09:02 PM	I personally love the idea of the Grey Guard. I've always wanted to play the badass, "do whatever it takes," kind of paladin, and the rules as written don't really allow for that. Whether you like the mechanics or not, the flavor of the class is purely awesome. Paladin of Tyranny. It's un Unearthed Arcana. It is also part of OGC, and can be found here: d20SRD.org (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVaria ntsFreedomSlaughterAndTyranny) You can blay Badass *torture all I want* and not have to worry about breaking your code.
Timespike 01-29-07, 11:52 PM	The Gray Guard was a wonderful thing for me to get my hands on. Virtually every single paladin of Myrtain in my game will have levels of it. Who's Myrtain, you ask? Myrtain Lawful Neural god of Retribution “You. Will. Pay for that!” Domains: Law, War, Destruction, Strength, Vengeance, Hatred (Blasphemy is replaced by Dictum), Retribution Colors: Black, Dark Blue, White Animal: Wolf Type: Selective (LN or LG clerics only) Name of Followers: Myrtainian, Myrtainians Symbol: Executioner's sword with scales of justice bearing nooses instead of balances as the crossguard Favored weapon: Executioner's sword (square-tipped bastard sword) Prevalent areas of worship: Sentoria, Blackwater Allied Faiths: Virrian, Korad, Patrius, Kardus, Benereth Societies: none per se, but a lot of Ossorus Council members often trust and work with individual Myrtainians, and some of the lawful good ones are OC members themselves. Myrtain is also known as the angry god. He hates injustice and evil with a burning hatred that is terrifying for even his allies (and sometimes his followers!) to behold. His followers are highly-militant, disciplined, relentless, and tough. They will not hesitate to use shockingly ruthless methods including intimidation, blackmail, and even light torture to hunt down the truly depraved and hold them to account for their misdeeds. They are comfortable with violence and unhesitant to employ it towards a just cause. Myrtain himself appears as a stern-looking cross between a warrior and a judge, clad in black robes, over which he wears a dark blue and white tabard and gleaming steel armor. His weathered, tanned face bears several obvious scars, his hair is short, spiked, and black, his eyes are orbs the color of molten iron and actually trail smoke, and he clenches his executioner's sword so tightly that his right hand drips blood. A well-tied noose hangs from each of his shoulder plates and encircles each of his arms. The innocent and even minor, petty miscreants have little to fear from Myrtain or his followers, but the truly wicked are terrified of them. Ascendants: Sahna, Holy Avenger (LG). Domains: Glory, Wrath, Celestial. Favored Weapon: any sword Khabbaccus, the Intractable (LN). Domains: Divination, Endurance, Travel. Favored Weapon: Net
Ventilatory_Threshold 01-30-07, 04:17 AM	Paladin of Tyranny. It's un Unearthed Arcana. It is also part of OGC, and can be found here: d20SRD.org (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVaria ntsFreedomSlaughterAndTyranny) You can blay Badass *torture all I want* and not have to worry about breaking your code. But that guy is also a champion of Evil. This is just your lack of imagination. Be gone, lest your bleak views kill my creativity!
Krusk 01-30-07, 11:49 AM	Personally i cant stand the palidins in unearthed Arcana, they "destroy what flavor the palidin has". This guy is still a champion of law and good. But realizes that sometimes it takes a little more extreme measures.
Gothenem 01-30-07, 01:12 PM	Personally i cant stand the palidins in unearthed Arcana, they "destroy what flavor the palidin has". This guy is still a champion of law and good. But realizes that sometimes it takes a little more extreme measures. Yes, but acting outside Law and Good isn't the way to do it. That is what paladins are all about. They are protectors of laws and goodness. By using methods that go beyond law and/or good they literally defeat what they seek to protect. That is why they loose their abilities. I do not disagree with the flavor of the Grey Guard, just how it is applied to a Paladin. I think Grey Guard would have made a better base class with a LN alignment. I could easily see LN Grey Guards of St. Cuthbert go on an inquisition to eradicate all evil by any means neccessary. I just can't see LG Paladins doing it. Perhaps make their alignment LN, and give it a "Trade in Paladin levels" ability like the blackguard.
ruff0126 01-30-07, 01:20 PM	I think the trade in option is a great idea but just for arguments sake lets say you are playing in a corrupt church(aka eberron) and you need to get info from the cleric of a your diety who happens to be (LE,NE,CE) it is againt the church laws to do it, and there for your mandate, but a grey guard could do it. Think of them as the paladin version of the inquisitor. Is it more evil to do nothing, or break a law, do a lesser evil to stop something bad form happening. D&D has become less Black/White than it used to be this allows people to play a paladin that relizes this and still keep his divine powers. Sorry for being long winded.
Gothenem 01-30-07, 01:23 PM	I think the trade in option is a great idea but just for arguments sake lets say you are playing in a corrupt church(aka eberron) and you need to get info from the cleric of a your diety who happens to be (LE,NE,CE) it is againt the church laws to do it, and there for your mandate, but a grey guard could do it. Think of them as the paladin version of the inquisitor. Is it more evil to do nothing, or break a law, do a lesser evil to stop something bad form happening. D&D has become less Black/White than it used to be this allows people to play a paladin that relizes this and still keep his divine powers. Sorry for being long winded. Ahhh, but that is what the Church Inquisitor (Complete Divine, Defenders of the Faith) is for.
Richmud 01-30-07, 01:30 PM	In many ways gray guard seems to be the answer players are looking for to deal with paladin screwing DMs. It helps deal with this: DM: MWAHAHAHA No matter what you do its evil Paladin: NOOOOO, I am doomed to be a fighter without bonus feats becomes: DM: MWAHAHAHA No matter what you do its evil Gray Guard: I preform the lesser evil then go get an atonement to regain my powers
Krusk 01-30-07, 07:53 PM	Yes, but acting outside Law and Good isn't the way to do it. That is what paladins are all about. They are protectors of laws and goodness. By using methods that go beyond law and/or good they literally defeat what they seek to protect. That is why they loose their abilities. I do not disagree with the flavor of the Grey Guard, just how it is applied to a Paladin. I think Grey Guard would have made a better base class with a LN alignment. I could easily see LN Grey Guards of St. Cuthbert go on an inquisition to eradicate all evil by any means neccessary. I just can't see LG Paladins doing it. Perhaps make their alignment LN, and give it a "Trade in Paladin levels" ability like the blackguard. I can see where you mean they should actualy go to NG or LN, but i can't really see which it would be. Thats probably how the designers saw it, i cant decide which it should be changed to, and they decided to just not change. they Act outside law and good, but they do it in order to give everyone else law and goodness. Its sort of a self sacrifice thing.
Dindylas 02-01-07, 08:20 AM	I love the Gray Guard, but I do not see him getting a free card to bust heads. He still is a paladin, he does stand for good, but sometimes (note the "sometimes") he might come to a situation, where he decides that the end justifies the means. He is even more hardcore than a paladin. He is the good guy that overdoes it sometimes. The zealot that only has his results in mind. Or the disillusioned nice guy, that misses his coffee every now and again (who said, that LG can't have mood-swings?). But a good player should never allow him to crave anything else but good in this world and work actively for it. With certainty... this is no class everyone can deal with, but the potential for roleplay is amazing!
Radijs 02-01-07, 10:02 AM	A nice addition to the conversation could be Miko's recent fall (see order of the stick) Would, if she was a gray guard10, not have lost her powers after striking Lord Shojo?
Ventilatory_Threshold 02-01-07, 10:25 AM	A nice addition to the conversation could be Miko's recent fall (see order of the stick) Would, if she was a gray guard10, not have lost her powers after striking Lord Shojo? No, because Shojo was actually one of the good guys. She jumped to a false conclusion and acted on it without listening to reason. She fell real good.
obsidianrose 02-01-07, 09:19 PM	The Greyguard makes me wanna write up a White Guard, the Neutral Good fallen paladin who doesn't care about laws so much as compassion and healing and defense. Trade in smiting for something of blocking damage, and give them other fun abilities. And the LN Honorguard, the one that only cares about law and traditino for the sake of such and only upholds the status quo. But I'm tired and I have robotics tomorrow.
Packe_SCA 02-02-07, 01:50 PM	I think the gray guards are like the knights templar of old. the "We will do anything for our god, even kill every last innocent to get back the holy city," is what I think all of us wanted the paladin to be able to do. At least now you can coup de grace without losing your powers.
Radijs 02-02-07, 01:57 PM	The gray guard opens another door, the spanish inquisition took the motto of the templars a little further. All in the name of their god.
Richmud 02-03-07, 05:31 PM	The gray guard opens another door, the spanish inquisition took the motto of the templars a little further. All in the name of their god. Yes but if the gray guard go to far they can still lose their powers, its the shadowbane inquisitors who can act on the belief of serving good when they are not doing so
BrianD 02-22-07, 04:03 AM	It's D&D Dirty Harry. What's not to love? I mean, yeah, if you play it as, "Sweet, now I can do whatever I want and still keep my paladin powers!" then I agree, it kills the flavor of the paladin. But the write-up of the class specifically says characters of this mindset are swiftly shown the door via boot. If you're DMing, feel free to enforce prerequisites beyond skill ranks and BABs for your prestige classes. If the Vigilant Order of Gray Guards in your game says the character is unfit for membership, then no dice. That's a whole helluva lot more important than Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks and Sense Motive 4 ranks, so run it that way. Right?
TheYeti1775 02-22-07, 10:56 AM	It's more the D&D version of the The Shield than Dirty Harry. I for one love it. It fits well with the campaign I play in. (Dawnforge by Fantasy Flight) And it fits well enough that very little needed changed flavor wise for them, nearly seamless fit. Might actually consider playing one. Yeti
Solik 02-22-07, 11:55 AM	Hold up on the alignment comments, guys. Gray Guards are still very LG. A paladin isn't just LG, they're LG plus. The Gray Guard simply allows for ignoring the "plus" when "plus" is not an option (because of the DM's campaign style). I love the class if for no other reason than it seems to rather clearly draw paladin lines. By saying what Gray Guards can do, as class features, it gives you a better idea of what normal paladins can't do.
JulesCARV 02-22-07, 01:39 PM	Personally, I'm beginning to think paladins are a bit overplayed. Sometimes, it seems like people think "I want to play a good, honorable character --> I must play a paladin." You can play a ranger or psychic warrior who is just as honorable, kind, just, pious, and righteous as the most righteous, pious paladin, and while your character will still have to face moral dilemmas, and will still have to take them seriously if he wants to be an honorable, righteous guy, a DM won't be able to say "you choose wrongly. You lose your powers!" Then, we get people who want to be lawful good guys while, say, using Drow knockout poison. Fine. Great. Nothing wrong with that by the rules. Go ahead and be a lawful good ranger or ninja or whatever and use it. But noooo, because people have come to the conclusion that a ranger or whatever who's lawful good can't really take it "seriously" compared to a paladin, so they clamor for a paladin prestige class that allows them to do things that are still generally good, but don't quite fit with the paladin's code, rather than playing a good guy who isn't a paladin in the first place. Bah. I'm ranting. Furthermore, I have nothing real to contribute to this discussion, since I don't have Complete Scoundrel.
Mousse 02-22-07, 01:54 PM	*thumbs down* Much like the Malconvoker, I dislike the alignment on it. The Grey Guard is way too much of a concession to the "Greater Good" and subjective alignments for me to take seriously. If it had been a LN version of the Blackguard, I would have approved more, but as is, blah.
Solik 02-22-07, 06:38 PM	I know it's a crazy idea, but some people just might like to play games involving actual Greater Good. There's nothing subjective about its alignment, either. Gray Guards cannot stop being LG.
stsword 02-23-07, 02:27 AM	I'm surprised no ones pointed out Jack Baur- Grey guard.
Timespike 02-23-07, 09:37 PM	I'm surprised no ones pointed out Jack Baur- Grey guard. ...You know, you're right. Very, very right. The flavor is extremely Jack Bauer-esque. So much so, that I wouldn't be surprised if Jack was what the designer had in mind when the class was being written.