Pale Master Re-vision [Archive] - Wizards Community

Pale Master Re-vision [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JellyPooga
04-24-07, 06:41 PM I've never been happy with the Pale Master PrC, mostly for the fact that the abilities it gives don't fit a full caster type character. As such, I've reworked it from about halfway off the ground (as opposed to the ground up :P ) to be more combat oriented and to fit the flavour it always spoke of to me. Anyway, you can find it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2467716#post2467716).

I would appreciate it if I got some feedback: What do you think? Is it unbalanced? Does it have the right 'feel'? Would you like anything explained/justified?
Perseus_Stoned
04-24-07, 07:17 PM I've never been happy with the Pale Master PrC, mostly for the fact that the abilities it gives don't fit a full caster type character. As such, I've reworked it from about halfway off the ground (as opposed to the ground up :P ) to be more combat oriented and to fit the flavour it always spoke of to me. Anyway, you can find it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2467716#post2467716).

I would appreciate it if I got some feedback: What do you think? Is it unbalanced? Does it have the right 'feel'? Would you like anything explained/justified?

I'm worried about the + bonuses to both Strength and Constitution, it seems like its a great 9 level prestige class for a Gish build, with spellcasting as the only penalty for an arsenal of special abilities.
JellyPooga
04-24-07, 08:09 PM I kind of thought similarly to you about the + to Str/Con, but let me explain...

Basically, you have to be at least lvl. 7 to get into it, at least 5 of which must be spellcasting classes. The quickest way to do this (If I haven't missed something) is by taking 7 levels of Warlock. By Lvl. 20 (assuming you take all 13 levels of Pale Master) your Casting Level is 14. As a Warlock, you don't get 'Dark' Invocations, as Sorcerer or Wizard you aren't casting above 7th level spells (I think). Many people will tell you that the class is a waste of time because of this (sacrificing casting levels and all).

Basically, the premis was: Start as full caster, turn into melee.

There were a couple of ways of doing this. I first considered giving full B.A.B and d10 HD (maybe d12 for the Undead theme), but then thought about the Undead. As a type, they tend to be fairly lacking in the B.A.B department, but make up for it in good ability scores. So I lowered the B.A.B to 3/4 and gave +2 Str at every level that B.A.B doesn't go up. Sacrificing iterative attacks for more damage.

Also, I wanted to represent getting tougher and more Undead-like better than just the +4 on Fort saves except against things that also affect objects. By giving the class d6 HD and gradually increasing Con (as well as giving a bonus to Fort saves like before, but reduced), by the time the character reaches lvl 13 and becomes undead (and thus losing the Con score that had previously been increased), the change in HP should be fairly small (given that the character started with average Con) - Hd become d12, but lose Con bonus HP.

To kind of offset this, the Baleful Flesh ability gets very good at lvl 10 (ECL: 17 remember). Up until that point, you have a fairly mediocre set of abilities and less spellcasting than your full caster compatriots. Like you say, 9 levels gives some hefty stat bonus', but the PrC really comes into its own after that, which is why I made it difficult to multiclass away once you reach level 10. also, don't forget Ghastly Visage. By level 9 you have a -9 penalty to all your interactions with the living...not particularly useful when you have no social class skills.

I suppose the point I'm trying to make is this: Remember that this PrC is a level 8 entry minimum. Compare to other casters/characters of similar ECL. Bear in mind that most of his abilities rely on his Pale Master level, not his character level or spellcaster level. Also bear in mind that He's not casting spells as well as the full caster is and he's not fighting as well as the full fighter is. Yes his abilities are good, but I don't think they overshadow any other single class or PrC.

The 'arsenal' you speak of (at lvl. 9, minimum ECL:16):
1)+6 Str/+6 B.A.B. : Total attack bonus +9 (+14 inc. other levels)..you're 2 behind the Fighters attack bonus and you don't have sneak attack or similar.
2)9d6 HD/+4 Con : 49-ish HP average (add another 38 for other levels)..not all that impressive.
3)Control Undead 2/day : Touch Attack to contol a 9HD Undead for 9 rounds. Not impressive at all (except in very particular circumstances, like against an Atropal Scion).
4)Undead Affinity 30% : Arcane Spell failure isn't what it was, what with Warmages and co casting in light/medium armour anyway.
5)Baleful Flesh: 4/day, 1d6 Con drain on touch. This ability has just started to get useful, but as of next level, that Con drain turns into a zombie on your side with the same chance of success (i.e. both require save throw).
6)Animate Dead + Times' Touch: Animate Dead simply means you're not paying for your minions, Clerics have been playing with Create Undead for several levels now and you're still making skally wags and zombies. Times' Touch has no combat usefulness...in fact it makes your minions worse
7)At this level, you have 6 feats, 2 of which are predetermined by the Requirements of the PrC. That leaves you 4 to make something of yourself as a fighter type, whilst trying to capitalise on the comparitively limited spellcasting you have.

I did consider having only 1 per 3 levels spellcasting progression, but that only gave +5 Casting Levels over the 13 levels (+1 at levels 1, 4, 7, 10 and 13), for a total Casting Level of 10 at ECL 20. This was not impressive for what else the class gave I felt, though I'm open to persuasion about that.
Perseus_Stoned
04-24-07, 08:24 PM I kind of thought similarly to you about the + to Str/Con, but let me explain...

Basically, you have to be at least lvl. 7 to get into it, at least 5 of which must be spellcasting classes. The quickest way to do this (If I haven't missed something) is by taking 7 levels of Warlock. By Lvl. 20 (assuming you take all 13 levels of Pale Master) your Casting Level is 14. As a Warlock, you don't get 'Dark' Invocations, as Sorcerer or Wizard you aren't casting above 7th level spells (I think). Many people will tell you that the class is a waste of time because of this (sacrificing casting levels and all).

Basically, the premis was: Start as full caster, turn into melee.

Alright, I can dig that. Your casting takes a big hit and thats respectable balance-wise.

There were a couple of ways of doing this. I first considered giving full B.A.B and d10 HD (maybe d12 for the Undead theme), but then thought about the Undead. As a type, they tend to be fairly lacking in the B.A.B department, but make up for it in good ability scores. So I lowered the B.A.B to 3/4 and gave +2 Str at every level that B.A.B doesn't go up. Sacrificing iterative attacks for more damage.

Alright, that does make quite a bit of sense when you explain it. As an alternative you might want to offer a class ability that grants a bonus to attack equal to half your class levels. That way at level 12 he'll have a +9 BAB, but a +15 total to attack (effectively a BAB that doesn't allow iterative attacks, but also one that helps you negate your previous casting penalties.)

If you go this way:
1) I'd suggest not allowing this ability to work in epic levels.
2) Get some crazy undead-touch attack in replacement (for the loss of strength.

Also, I wanted to represent getting tougher and more Undead-like better than just the +4 on Fort saves except against things that also affect objects. By giving the class d6 HD and gradually increasing Con (as well as giving a bonus to Fort saves like before, but reduced), by the time the character reaches lvl 13 and becomes undead (and thus losing the Con score that had previously been increased), the change in HP should be fairly small (given that the character started with average Con) - Hd become d12, but lose Con bonus HP.

My main problem is this: normally spellcasters love undeath transition because of the d12 hit die. However, unless a spellcaster starts with 10 Constitution they will actually get penalized for taking this class. Say a caster starts with 16 constitution (I'd say about typical). They gain +3 HP each level, along with a standard d4 hit die. This means they average 4-7 (5.5) HP a level. Next they take this class and get a +6 to constitution. Now they're averaging 7-10 (8.5) HP a level- all of a sudden they turn into undead, lose all that bonus hp and instead "gain" an average of 6.5 HP. See how bad that is? They just lost 2 HP per level they had.

If you want to keep your way, for flavor reasons, I recommend one of the following:
Damage resistance (which I think ties neatly into your class)
Toughness progression feats ("Toughness" at every third or fourth level, then gain Improved Toughness, then gain the undead equivalent of "Improved Toughness")

Maybe do both? Remember a d12 HD with no Con. plus is about equivalent to your standard rogue's HP (14 Con is standard, IMO).

To kind of offset this, the Baleful Flesh ability gets very good at lvl 10 (ECL: 17 remember). Up until that point, you have a fairly mediocre set of abilities and less spellcasting than your full caster compatriots. Like you say, 9 levels gives some hefty stat bonus', but the PrC really comes into its own after that, which is why I made it difficult to multiclass away once you reach level 10. also, don't forget Ghastly Visage. By level 9 you have a -9 penalty to all your interactions with the living...not particularly useful when you have no social class skills.

I do like the Baleful Flesh ability and it was one of the reasons I commented, obviously you spent a lot of time in developing this class.

I suppose the point I'm trying to make is this: Remember that this PrC is a level 8 entry minimum. Compare to other casters/characters of similar ECL. Bear in mind that most of his abilities rely on his Pale Master level, not his character level or spellcaster level. Also bear in mind that He's not casting spells as well as the full caster is and he's not fighting as well as the full fighter is. Yes his abilities are good, but I don't think they overshadow any other single class or PrC.

The 'arsenal' you speak of (at lvl. 9, minimum ECL:16):
1)+6 Str/+6 B.A.B. : Total attack bonus +9 (+14 inc. other levels)..you're 2 behind the Fighters attack bonus and you don't have sneak attack or similar.
2)9d6 HD/+4 Con : 49-ish HP average (add another 38 for other levels)..not all that impressive.
3)Control Undead 2/day : Touch Attack to contol a 9HD Undead for 9 rounds. Not impressive at all (except in very particular circumstances, like against an Atropal Scion).
4)Undead Affinity 30% : Arcane Spell failure isn't what it was, what with Warmages and co casting in light/medium armour anyway.
5)Baleful Flesh: 4/day, 1d6 Con drain on touch. This ability has just started to get useful, but as of next level, that Con drain turns into a zombie on your side with the same chance of success (i.e. both require save throw).
6)Animate Dead + Times' Touch: Animate Dead simply means you're not paying for your minions, Clerics have been playing with Create Undead for several levels now and you're still making skally wags and zombies. Times' Touch has no combat usefulness...in fact it makes your minions worse
7)At this level, you have 6 feats, 2 of which are predetermined by the Requirements of the PrC. That leaves you 4 to make something of yourself as a fighter type, whilst trying to capitalise on the comparitively limited spellcasting you have.

I did consider having only 1 per 3 levels spellcasting progression, but that only gave +5 Casting Levels over the 13 levels (+1 at levels 1, 4, 7, 10 and 13), for a total Casting Level of 10 at ECL 20. This was not impressive for what else the class gave I felt, though I'm open to persuasion about that.

Keep in mind I typically find Gish builds to suck ;)
However, if a player wants one for roleplaying, this class sort of looks like a no-brainer dip. You could say it gets 1/2 level caster level, but only 1/4 spells per day transition. You could also offer the ability to sacrifice an undead creature to power your spell essence or get a free undead familiar.
JellyPooga
04-24-07, 08:50 PM Alright, that does make quite a bit of sense when you explain it. As an alternative you might want to offer a class ability that grants a bonus to attack equal to half your class levels. That way at level 12 he'll have a +9 BAB, but a +15 total to attack (effectively a BAB that doesn't allow iterative attacks, but also one that helps you negate your previous casting penalties.)

I'm loathe to do this for the simple reason that the original Pale Master PrC gave a Str bonus (of +4) anyway. Also bear in mind that unlike other combat classes, this PrC has no combat enhancing abilities that work all day every day (like bonus fighter feats, sneak attack, etc.). By subbing some B.A.B for Strength bonus, they get something (i.e. a little bonus damage) to use when they run out of spells and touch attacks.

If you go this way:
1) I'd suggest not allowing this ability to work in epic levels.

Yeah, I agree with you there, but I left it formulaic for ease more than anything.

2) Get some crazy undead-touch attack in replacement (for the loss of strength.

Already got one!:D

My main problem is this: normally spellcasters love undeath transition because of the d12 hit die. However, unless a spellcaster starts with 10 Constitution they will actually get penalized for taking this class. Say a caster starts with 16 constitution (I'd say about typical). They gain +3 HP each level, along with a standard d4 hit die. This means they average 4-7 (5.5) HP a level. Next they take this class and get a +6 to constitution. Now they're averaging 7-10 (8.5) HP a level- all of a sudden they turn into undead, lose all that bonus hp and instead "gain" an average of 6.5 HP. See how bad that is? They just lost 2 HP per level they had.

Yeah, I toyed with this idea a lot and decided on Con bonus as opposed to bonus HP for a couple of reasons;

1)As far as I'm concerned, spellcasters shouldn't have high Con (for purely fluff reasons)...especially those that are looking at the Undead option. So starting from an average Con of 10 or 11, the HP balances fairly well. O.k. so you lose a couple, but becoming slightly frailer in HP (what with no 'buffer zone' of negative HP) is one of the prices of Undead.
2)Con increases don't just give you more HP. It also represents a general increase in toughness. Not just in the Fort. save department, but for ability checks and concerns such as for holding breath and general endurance.

I do like the Baleful Flesh ability and it was one of the reasons I commented, obviously you spent a lot of time in developing this class.

Thanks! Deciding on what spells to emulate for levels 11-13 was a *****.

Keep in mind I typically find Gish builds to suck ;)
From an optimisation PoV, I wholeheartedly agree

However, if a player wants one for roleplaying, this class sort of looks like a no-brainer dip. You could say it gets 1/2 level caster level, but only 1/4 spells per day transition.

Yeah, something like that might work...I'll give it some thought.

You could also offer the ability to sacrifice an undead creature to power your spell essence or get a free undead familiar.

The original PrC gave an Undead Cohort, but I preferred the 'Horde of Lesser Undead Minions' approach. I quite like the idea that you could sacrifice minions to some purpose, but I'm not sure what mechanical effect it would achieve...maybe grant the ability to heal other minions (based on the sacrifices HD maybe) or something (seeing as none of his other abilities do). Possibly give the Stitched Flesh Familiar feat for free at some point and have PrC levels stack for its abilities? Dunno.

Thanks for your input, it's certainly given me some pointers and stuff to think about. ;)
Perseus_Stoned
04-24-07, 11:18 PM I'm loathe to do this for the simple reason that the original Pale Master PrC gave a Str bonus (of +4) anyway. Also bear in mind that unlike other combat classes, this PrC has no combat enhancing abilities that work all day every day (like bonus fighter feats, sneak attack, etc.). By subbing some B.A.B for Strength bonus, they get something (i.e. a little bonus damage) to use when they run out of spells and touch attacks

I just feel that they're emulating that "jack of all trades" feel when it comes to melee; they can whack another wizard if they run out of spells and win, but when it comes to another meleer they'll get mopped.

From an optimisation PoV, I wholeheartedly agree

*winces* Please keep in mind I'm trying to critique this from an overall game balance perspective. Not just for you playing it, but for thousands of other people and how to get them to play it just as much as other builds as well.

You intended no insult, and indeed there wasn't one, but just so you know where I'm coming from. I'm not a powergamer, I'm a roleplayer, but I try to appease everyone when it comes to class build-outs.

The original PrC gave an Undead Cohort, but I preferred the 'Horde of Lesser Undead Minions' approach. I quite like the idea that you could sacrifice minions to some purpose, but I'm not sure what mechanical effect it would achieve...maybe grant the ability to heal other minions (based on the sacrifices HD maybe) or something (seeing as none of his other abilities do). Possibly give the Stitched Flesh Familiar feat for free at some point and have PrC levels stack for its abilities? Dunno.

Forgive me, earlier I meant sacrifice an undead to boost your caster level. Or maybe you could give him a death-knell spelltype ability? Really everything I'm throwing around here are just my ideas; from when you first showed it this thing looks like its ready for a test-drive. I'm trying to offer things that maybe you hadn't thought of, so you can reject or accept them as needed.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for your input, it's certainly given me some pointers and stuff to think about. ;)[/QUOTE]

Good luck with your class!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JellyPooga 04-24-07, 06:41 PM	I've never been happy with the Pale Master PrC, mostly for the fact that the abilities it gives don't fit a full caster type character. As such, I've reworked it from about halfway off the ground (as opposed to the ground up :P ) to be more combat oriented and to fit the flavour it always spoke of to me. Anyway, you can find it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2467716#post2467716). I would appreciate it if I got some feedback: What do you think? Is it unbalanced? Does it have the right 'feel'? Would you like anything explained/justified?
Perseus_Stoned 04-24-07, 07:17 PM	I've never been happy with the Pale Master PrC, mostly for the fact that the abilities it gives don't fit a full caster type character. As such, I've reworked it from about halfway off the ground (as opposed to the ground up :P ) to be more combat oriented and to fit the flavour it always spoke of to me. Anyway, you can find it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2467716#post2467716). I would appreciate it if I got some feedback: What do you think? Is it unbalanced? Does it have the right 'feel'? Would you like anything explained/justified? I'm worried about the + bonuses to both Strength and Constitution, it seems like its a great 9 level prestige class for a Gish build, with spellcasting as the only penalty for an arsenal of special abilities.
JellyPooga 04-24-07, 08:09 PM	I kind of thought similarly to you about the + to Str/Con, but let me explain... Basically, you have to be at least lvl. 7 to get into it, at least 5 of which must be spellcasting classes. The quickest way to do this (If I haven't missed something) is by taking 7 levels of Warlock. By Lvl. 20 (assuming you take all 13 levels of Pale Master) your Casting Level is 14. As a Warlock, you don't get 'Dark' Invocations, as Sorcerer or Wizard you aren't casting above 7th level spells (I think). Many people will tell you that the class is a waste of time because of this (sacrificing casting levels and all). Basically, the premis was: Start as full caster, turn into melee. There were a couple of ways of doing this. I first considered giving full B.A.B and d10 HD (maybe d12 for the Undead theme), but then thought about the Undead. As a type, they tend to be fairly lacking in the B.A.B department, but make up for it in good ability scores. So I lowered the B.A.B to 3/4 and gave +2 Str at every level that B.A.B doesn't go up. Sacrificing iterative attacks for more damage. Also, I wanted to represent getting tougher and more Undead-like better than just the +4 on Fort saves except against things that also affect objects. By giving the class d6 HD and gradually increasing Con (as well as giving a bonus to Fort saves like before, but reduced), by the time the character reaches lvl 13 and becomes undead (and thus losing the Con score that had previously been increased), the change in HP should be fairly small (given that the character started with average Con) - Hd become d12, but lose Con bonus HP. To kind of offset this, the Baleful Flesh ability gets very good at lvl 10 (ECL: 17 remember). Up until that point, you have a fairly mediocre set of abilities and less spellcasting than your full caster compatriots. Like you say, 9 levels gives some hefty stat bonus', but the PrC really comes into its own after that, which is why I made it difficult to multiclass away once you reach level 10. also, don't forget Ghastly Visage. By level 9 you have a -9 penalty to all your interactions with the living...not particularly useful when you have no social class skills. I suppose the point I'm trying to make is this: Remember that this PrC is a level 8 entry minimum. Compare to other casters/characters of similar ECL. Bear in mind that most of his abilities rely on his Pale Master level, not his character level or spellcaster level. Also bear in mind that He's not casting spells as well as the full caster is and he's not fighting as well as the full fighter is. Yes his abilities are good, but I don't think they overshadow any other single class or PrC. The 'arsenal' you speak of (at lvl. 9, minimum ECL:16): 1)+6 Str/+6 B.A.B. : Total attack bonus +9 (+14 inc. other levels)..you're 2 behind the Fighters attack bonus and you don't have sneak attack or similar. 2)9d6 HD/+4 Con : 49-ish HP average (add another 38 for other levels)..not all that impressive. 3)Control Undead 2/day : Touch Attack to contol a 9HD Undead for 9 rounds. Not impressive at all (except in very particular circumstances, like against an Atropal Scion). 4)Undead Affinity 30% : Arcane Spell failure isn't what it was, what with Warmages and co casting in light/medium armour anyway. 5)Baleful Flesh: 4/day, 1d6 Con drain on touch. This ability has just started to get useful, but as of next level, that Con drain turns into a zombie on your side with the same chance of success (i.e. both require save throw). 6)Animate Dead + Times' Touch: Animate Dead simply means you're not paying for your minions, Clerics have been playing with Create Undead for several levels now and you're still making skally wags and zombies. Times' Touch has no combat usefulness...in fact it makes your minions worse 7)At this level, you have 6 feats, 2 of which are predetermined by the Requirements of the PrC. That leaves you 4 to make something of yourself as a fighter type, whilst trying to capitalise on the comparitively limited spellcasting you have. I did consider having only 1 per 3 levels spellcasting progression, but that only gave +5 Casting Levels over the 13 levels (+1 at levels 1, 4, 7, 10 and 13), for a total Casting Level of 10 at ECL 20. This was not impressive for what else the class gave I felt, though I'm open to persuasion about that.
Perseus_Stoned 04-24-07, 08:24 PM	I kind of thought similarly to you about the + to Str/Con, but let me explain... Basically, you have to be at least lvl. 7 to get into it, at least 5 of which must be spellcasting classes. The quickest way to do this (If I haven't missed something) is by taking 7 levels of Warlock. By Lvl. 20 (assuming you take all 13 levels of Pale Master) your Casting Level is 14. As a Warlock, you don't get 'Dark' Invocations, as Sorcerer or Wizard you aren't casting above 7th level spells (I think). Many people will tell you that the class is a waste of time because of this (sacrificing casting levels and all). Basically, the premis was: Start as full caster, turn into melee. Alright, I can dig that. Your casting takes a big hit and thats respectable balance-wise. There were a couple of ways of doing this. I first considered giving full B.A.B and d10 HD (maybe d12 for the Undead theme), but then thought about the Undead. As a type, they tend to be fairly lacking in the B.A.B department, but make up for it in good ability scores. So I lowered the B.A.B to 3/4 and gave +2 Str at every level that B.A.B doesn't go up. Sacrificing iterative attacks for more damage. Alright, that does make quite a bit of sense when you explain it. As an alternative you might want to offer a class ability that grants a bonus to attack equal to half your class levels. That way at level 12 he'll have a +9 BAB, but a +15 total to attack (effectively a BAB that doesn't allow iterative attacks, but also one that helps you negate your previous casting penalties.) If you go this way: 1) I'd suggest not allowing this ability to work in epic levels. 2) Get some crazy undead-touch attack in replacement (for the loss of strength. Also, I wanted to represent getting tougher and more Undead-like better than just the +4 on Fort saves except against things that also affect objects. By giving the class d6 HD and gradually increasing Con (as well as giving a bonus to Fort saves like before, but reduced), by the time the character reaches lvl 13 and becomes undead (and thus losing the Con score that had previously been increased), the change in HP should be fairly small (given that the character started with average Con) - Hd become d12, but lose Con bonus HP. My main problem is this: normally spellcasters love undeath transition because of the d12 hit die. However, unless a spellcaster starts with 10 Constitution they will actually get penalized for taking this class. Say a caster starts with 16 constitution (I'd say about typical). They gain +3 HP each level, along with a standard d4 hit die. This means they average 4-7 (5.5) HP a level. Next they take this class and get a +6 to constitution. Now they're averaging 7-10 (8.5) HP a level- all of a sudden they turn into undead, lose all that bonus hp and instead "gain" an average of 6.5 HP. See how bad that is? They just lost 2 HP per level they had. If you want to keep your way, for flavor reasons, I recommend one of the following: Damage resistance (which I think ties neatly into your class) Toughness progression feats ("Toughness" at every third or fourth level, then gain Improved Toughness, then gain the undead equivalent of "Improved Toughness") Maybe do both? Remember a d12 HD with no Con. plus is about equivalent to your standard rogue's HP (14 Con is standard, IMO). To kind of offset this, the Baleful Flesh ability gets very good at lvl 10 (ECL: 17 remember). Up until that point, you have a fairly mediocre set of abilities and less spellcasting than your full caster compatriots. Like you say, 9 levels gives some hefty stat bonus', but the PrC really comes into its own after that, which is why I made it difficult to multiclass away once you reach level 10. also, don't forget Ghastly Visage. By level 9 you have a -9 penalty to all your interactions with the living...not particularly useful when you have no social class skills. I do like the Baleful Flesh ability and it was one of the reasons I commented, obviously you spent a lot of time in developing this class. I suppose the point I'm trying to make is this: Remember that this PrC is a level 8 entry minimum. Compare to other casters/characters of similar ECL. Bear in mind that most of his abilities rely on his Pale Master level, not his character level or spellcaster level. Also bear in mind that He's not casting spells as well as the full caster is and he's not fighting as well as the full fighter is. Yes his abilities are good, but I don't think they overshadow any other single class or PrC. The 'arsenal' you speak of (at lvl. 9, minimum ECL:16): 1)+6 Str/+6 B.A.B. : Total attack bonus +9 (+14 inc. other levels)..you're 2 behind the Fighters attack bonus and you don't have sneak attack or similar. 2)9d6 HD/+4 Con : 49-ish HP average (add another 38 for other levels)..not all that impressive. 3)Control Undead 2/day : Touch Attack to contol a 9HD Undead for 9 rounds. Not impressive at all (except in very particular circumstances, like against an Atropal Scion). 4)Undead Affinity 30% : Arcane Spell failure isn't what it was, what with Warmages and co casting in light/medium armour anyway. 5)Baleful Flesh: 4/day, 1d6 Con drain on touch. This ability has just started to get useful, but as of next level, that Con drain turns into a zombie on your side with the same chance of success (i.e. both require save throw). 6)Animate Dead + Times' Touch: Animate Dead simply means you're not paying for your minions, Clerics have been playing with Create Undead for several levels now and you're still making skally wags and zombies. Times' Touch has no combat usefulness...in fact it makes your minions worse 7)At this level, you have 6 feats, 2 of which are predetermined by the Requirements of the PrC. That leaves you 4 to make something of yourself as a fighter type, whilst trying to capitalise on the comparitively limited spellcasting you have. I did consider having only 1 per 3 levels spellcasting progression, but that only gave +5 Casting Levels over the 13 levels (+1 at levels 1, 4, 7, 10 and 13), for a total Casting Level of 10 at ECL 20. This was not impressive for what else the class gave I felt, though I'm open to persuasion about that. Keep in mind I typically find Gish builds to suck ;) However, if a player wants one for roleplaying, this class sort of looks like a no-brainer dip. You could say it gets 1/2 level caster level, but only 1/4 spells per day transition. You could also offer the ability to sacrifice an undead creature to power your spell essence or get a free undead familiar.
JellyPooga 04-24-07, 08:50 PM	Alright, that does make quite a bit of sense when you explain it. As an alternative you might want to offer a class ability that grants a bonus to attack equal to half your class levels. That way at level 12 he'll have a +9 BAB, but a +15 total to attack (effectively a BAB that doesn't allow iterative attacks, but also one that helps you negate your previous casting penalties.) I'm loathe to do this for the simple reason that the original Pale Master PrC gave a Str bonus (of +4) anyway. Also bear in mind that unlike other combat classes, this PrC has no combat enhancing abilities that work all day every day (like bonus fighter feats, sneak attack, etc.). By subbing some B.A.B for Strength bonus, they get something (i.e. a little bonus damage) to use when they run out of spells and touch attacks. If you go this way: 1) I'd suggest not allowing this ability to work in epic levels. Yeah, I agree with you there, but I left it formulaic for ease more than anything. 2) Get some crazy undead-touch attack in replacement (for the loss of strength. Already got one!:D My main problem is this: normally spellcasters love undeath transition because of the d12 hit die. However, unless a spellcaster starts with 10 Constitution they will actually get penalized for taking this class. Say a caster starts with 16 constitution (I'd say about typical). They gain +3 HP each level, along with a standard d4 hit die. This means they average 4-7 (5.5) HP a level. Next they take this class and get a +6 to constitution. Now they're averaging 7-10 (8.5) HP a level- all of a sudden they turn into undead, lose all that bonus hp and instead "gain" an average of 6.5 HP. See how bad that is? They just lost 2 HP per level they had. Yeah, I toyed with this idea a lot and decided on Con bonus as opposed to bonus HP for a couple of reasons; 1)As far as I'm concerned, spellcasters shouldn't have high Con (for purely fluff reasons)...especially those that are looking at the Undead option. So starting from an average Con of 10 or 11, the HP balances fairly well. O.k. so you lose a couple, but becoming slightly frailer in HP (what with no 'buffer zone' of negative HP) is one of the prices of Undead. 2)Con increases don't just give you more HP. It also represents a general increase in toughness. Not just in the Fort. save department, but for ability checks and concerns such as for holding breath and general endurance. I do like the Baleful Flesh ability and it was one of the reasons I commented, obviously you spent a lot of time in developing this class. Thanks! Deciding on what spells to emulate for levels 11-13 was a *****. Keep in mind I typically find Gish builds to suck ;) From an optimisation PoV, I wholeheartedly agree However, if a player wants one for roleplaying, this class sort of looks like a no-brainer dip. You could say it gets 1/2 level caster level, but only 1/4 spells per day transition. Yeah, something like that might work...I'll give it some thought. You could also offer the ability to sacrifice an undead creature to power your spell essence or get a free undead familiar. The original PrC gave an Undead Cohort, but I preferred the 'Horde of Lesser Undead Minions' approach. I quite like the idea that you could sacrifice minions to some purpose, but I'm not sure what mechanical effect it would achieve...maybe grant the ability to heal other minions (based on the sacrifices HD maybe) or something (seeing as none of his other abilities do). Possibly give the Stitched Flesh Familiar feat for free at some point and have PrC levels stack for its abilities? Dunno. Thanks for your input, it's certainly given me some pointers and stuff to think about. ;)
Perseus_Stoned 04-24-07, 11:18 PM	I'm loathe to do this for the simple reason that the original Pale Master PrC gave a Str bonus (of +4) anyway. Also bear in mind that unlike other combat classes, this PrC has no combat enhancing abilities that work all day every day (like bonus fighter feats, sneak attack, etc.). By subbing some B.A.B for Strength bonus, they get something (i.e. a little bonus damage) to use when they run out of spells and touch attacks I just feel that they're emulating that "jack of all trades" feel when it comes to melee; they can whack another wizard if they run out of spells and win, but when it comes to another meleer they'll get mopped. From an optimisation PoV, I wholeheartedly agree winces Please keep in mind I'm trying to critique this from an overall game balance perspective. Not just for you playing it, but for thousands of other people and how to get them to play it just as much as other builds as well. You intended no insult, and indeed there wasn't one, but just so you know where I'm coming from. I'm not a powergamer, I'm a roleplayer, but I try to appease everyone when it comes to class build-outs. The original PrC gave an Undead Cohort, but I preferred the 'Horde of Lesser Undead Minions' approach. I quite like the idea that you could sacrifice minions to some purpose, but I'm not sure what mechanical effect it would achieve...maybe grant the ability to heal other minions (based on the sacrifices HD maybe) or something (seeing as none of his other abilities do). Possibly give the Stitched Flesh Familiar feat for free at some point and have PrC levels stack for its abilities? Dunno. Forgive me, earlier I meant sacrifice an undead to boost your caster level. Or maybe you could give him a death-knell spelltype ability? Really everything I'm throwing around here are just my ideas; from when you first showed it this thing looks like its ready for a test-drive. I'm trying to offer things that maybe you hadn't thought of, so you can reject or accept them as needed.[/QUOTE] Thanks for your input, it's certainly given me some pointers and stuff to think about. ;)[/QUOTE] Good luck with your class!