Post/Author/DateTime	Post
teshen 05-01-07, 05:10 PM	I had an idea... comments and critiques welcome. Permanency specialist: The Spellward She cast a spell reaver and smiled as she watched the bright glow of his magical aura dim to nothing. Like putting out a candle she thought. She took a moment to enjoy the panicked look of the human mage who had the audacity to come into her caves and challenge her. It seemed without his spells, not only was he defenseless, he was blind as well... His aura flared back to life, and his eyes found her. She had only a moment of confusion on her ebony face before he let loose with a quick gesture and a thin green ray from his outstretched hand. "Got you, Witch." he taunted the resulting pile of dust and robes. Prerequisites Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 12 ranks, Spellcraft 16 ranks Feats: Extend spell Spells: The ability to cast seventh level spells and the spell Permanency Lv BaB Fort Ref Will CL Features 1 +0 +0 +0 +2 +1 Linked Permanency 2 +1 +0 +0 +3 +1 Reweave spell, Lingering spells 3 +1 +0 +0 +3 +1 Revive the Essence, Expanded Permanency Class Skills The spellward's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (all skills taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), Speak Language, and Spellcraft (Int). Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier. Hit die: d4 Class Features The following are features of the spellward prestige class. Weapon and Armor Proficiency Spellwards gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor. Spells per Day/Spells Known When a new spellward level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class to which he belonged before he added the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class to which he belonged before he became an spellward, he must decide to which class he adds each level of spellward for the purpose of determining spells per day. Linked Permanency A spellward learns to forge a mystical link between spells he makes permanent and himself. By virtue of the committing a bit of his own soul, the spell becomes as difficult to dispel as if the spellward had just cast it... Whenever a spellward uses the spell Permanency to make a spell permanent on himself, the Permanency spell operates at his current caster level rather than his caster level when he first cast the spell. He may only create a number of linked permanencies equal to one + his spellward level + his casting modifier. He may still create more spells permanent upon his person, but they don't gain the benefits of this ability. Reweave spell By examining the pattern of eldritch energies, a spellward can augment some spells that have been the target of a Permanency. He applies his knowledge of mystic arts in an attempt to reweave the energies to increase their potency. If a spell that scales by caster level is made permanent with the Permanency spell, a spellward can attempt to increase the relavant caster level of the spell. He does this by making a caster level check against the spell's original caster level + 5. Doing so takes one hour and may only be attempted once per spell per week. Lingering spells Through his studies into Permanency, a spellward is naturally able to increase the duration of his own spells. The spellward adds his level in spellward to his caster level for the purposes of spell duration. Revive the Essence A spellward becomes so in tune with his soul essence used to create permanent spells that, should they be dispelled, he can simply restore the soul stuff of the spell with effort and concentration alone. Any spell made permanent by the spellward with Linked Permanency feature that is dispelled, may be reinstated as a full round action, at the cost of 1/2 the experience used to originally create the permanent spells without the need to actually recast the spells. Expanded Permanency Through a spellward's study into Permanency, he learns to share some spells with allies that other casters cannot. Spells that may only be made permanent on yourself may now be made permanent on other willing creatures. ***** Edits: 5/3/07 Added some flavor text. Increased the prerequisites to make the class higher level in nature due to critiques. Increased the Linked Permanency xp cost a little and limited the amount of Linked Permanencies possible. 5/5/07 Changed Linked Permanency to self only and removed the experience point cost for that feature.
calprinicus 05-02-07, 02:51 AM	LAME! just being honest
teshen 05-02-07, 03:31 AM	LAME! just being honest The idea or the execution? There are lots of ways to do the enduring spells concept... this is just one direction. Is permanency not a big factor in the games you play?
Lixith 05-02-07, 03:35 AM	Hummmm.... i'm gonna say its both too powerfull, and too....boring. Kinda weird huh? Anyway if you got a DM and a Player who are willing to try it out, go for it.
Thrincold 05-02-07, 08:36 AM	Neat idea. Maybe cut one level of spell casting progression. Like the others said in their own delicate and articulate manners, it lacks flavor. Maybe working up some flavor text would help it out, as is, it is bland. That and there are many other avenues to explore when doing such things. Make it a larger class, and maybe capstone it with the ability to make any spell that could be permanent become instantaneous, thereby eliminating the chance of Dispelling. Of course it would still be tied to the xp expenditure and casting of permanency, but altered in effect. (dons asbestos suit) You could look at the Swiftblade PrC for inspiration. Though many don't like it in execution, it does provide a neat idea for how to focus a caster on one spell, and expand that spell to more usage.
forsaken1111 05-02-07, 10:51 AM	It looks like a class I might give to a plot-centric NPC but not something I'd ever take for my own character.
teshen 05-02-07, 01:45 PM	Hummmm.... i'm gonna say its both too powerfull, and too....boring. Kinda weird huh? Wow. I've managed to make something suck on two completely different levels then... :D Neat idea. Maybe cut one level of spell casting progression. Like the others said in their own delicate and articulate manners, it lacks flavor. Maybe working up some flavor text would help it out, as is, it is bland. Agreed. I just threw it together at work so I was thinking mechanics rather than flavor. I'll work on it. That and there are many other avenues to explore when doing such things. Make it a larger class, and maybe capstone it with the ability to make any spell that could be permanent become instantaneous, thereby eliminating the chance of Dispelling. Of course it would still be tied to the xp expenditure and casting of permanency, but altered in effect. I agree that there's lots of directions that the idea could go. In fact I like your instantaneous idea... It seems an elegant solution for avoiding dispelling... I'll work on it. Thank you for the evaluations so far.
Tuhljin 05-02-07, 04:01 PM	Ignore the "lame concept" posts. I doubt many people were truly excited over the Wayfarer Guide (teleportation master) in Complete Arcane either. That doesn't mean it's useless or a bad class. I like the flavor behind this more than I do that behind the officially published teleportation master.
calprinicus 05-02-07, 04:36 PM	The idea or the execution? There are lots of ways to do the enduring spells concept... this is just one direction. Is permanency not a big factor in the games you play? the Idea isn't the worst thing ever, there have been much much worst on these post, it's more the execution. it's as stated prior is way over powered. as you gain levels your permenents gain uber powerful over tome and by level 20 by just giving an extra 100xp maybe that should increase as you gain levels. you'll be way too powerful, maybe if you stretch it over a larger span of Prc like 5. could try over 5 levels like: 1 permanency power 2 +1 arcane spells 3 permanency power 4 +1 arcane spells 5 permanency power that way spread over more levels and limits spells. No Idea is horrible just takes time to perfect........but serious may need to edit so not to over powered. right now though I say its lame, but there is always room to improve.
teshen 05-02-07, 06:52 PM	. . . I doubt many people were truly excited over the Wayfarer Guide (teleportation master) in Complete Arcane either. That doesn't mean it's useless or a bad class. I like the flavor behind this more than I do that behind the officially published teleportation master. Thank you, Tuhljin. The wayfarer is an apt analogy. My idea started out as a class that spends a few levels improving his capacity with one spell... or metamagic turned spell since permanency is kind of the persistant spell feat on steroids... And we've seen some examples of this like the Force Missle Mage from Dragon, and the Telekinetic Savant from Complete Arcane. But the more I think on it, with mythals and other things in some of the fantasy setting, I think, like Thrincold suggested, the prc should be expanding to making all spells last (which occured to me about half way through)... and permanency is an example of that, but not the only part of that idea. the Idea isn't the worst thing ever, there have been much much worst on these post, it's more the execution. it's as stated prior is way over powered. as you gain levels your permenents gain uber powerful over tome and by level 20 by just giving an extra 100xp maybe that should increase as you gain levels. you'll be way too powerful, maybe if you stretch it over a larger span of Prc like 5. could try over 5 levels like: 1 permanency power 2 +1 arcane spells 3 permanency power 4 +1 arcane spells 5 permanency power that way spread over more levels and limits spells. No Idea is horrible just takes time to perfect........but serious may need to edit so not to over powered. right now though I say its lame, but there is always room to improve. I think I see your point. But let me elaborate on why I did what I did, and then you can tell me full of stupid and missing something or if the idea makes a kind of sense. A dedicated caster has the capacity to cast permanency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm) at level 9. Since permanency works on different spells at different levels, it's not exactly a fifth level spell... it's an xp sacrifice at 9th level to make some cantrips and 1st level spells permanent. It's a xp sacrifice at 10th and 11th level to make 2nd level spells permanent... and so on. It's more like a weak slotless item creation. Anytime you invest xp in something, it should be important. You're sacrificing long term growth with short term survivablity or versatility, whether it be through the permanency spell or if you make magic items for your party, and thus it takes a little longer for the caster to level than the rest... The higher you go in level, the more magic comes into play. Someone hits you with a targeted dispel to suppress that magic ring you have... and just flushed your permanencies as well... If you level a bit, that permanency that you cast at 9th level doesn't scale as you level so you can pay the experience all over again if you want to improve it... or a stray dispel will kill it, since numbers are no longer remotely on your side for old permanencies... You fix magic items at half the cost. I figured permanencies could get the same treatment, especially since it's for things a caster has already spent the experience on... I see the reweave and expanded permanency as problematic since you can increase the caster level for spells you may not be able to cast (like greater magic fang) and it gives other characters access to options easier than they could otherwise get them... such as scroll of arcane sight + scroll of permanency... But linked lets permanency scale and lets you pay a little more so that you can pay less xp on spells that you've already spent the full price in xp on when someone dispels them... thus making permanencies a little more cost effective. With your idea, calprinicus, if you cut caster levels down to 2/5, few full caster will want in, and partial casters won't be able to get in til late in their carreer do to the fact that this idea is based on 5th level spells. One level for a 4/5 progression could work... But a 1/3 is just weak over the entire prc. That's one of the reasons, though I think wayfarer is kind of cool in theory, I'd never take it as is. I'll look for another angle for this prc... Thank you, again, for all that have contributed input.
teshen 05-02-07, 09:45 PM	I'm posting this separate so I can compare the two latter... I don't think I like this one as much... Permanency specialist: The Spellward Prerequisites Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks, Spellcraft 12 ranks Feats: Extend spell, Persistent spell Spells: The ability to cast the spell Permanency Lv BaB Fort Ref Will CL Features 1 +0 +0 +0 +2 Permanent spell, Improved Permanency 2 +1 +0 +0 +3 +1 Permanent spell 3 +1 +0 +0 +3 +1 Permanent spell, Lingering spells 4 +2 +1 +1 +4 +1 Permanent spell 5 +2 +1 +1 +4 +1 Permanent spell, Spell Persistence Class Skills The spellward's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (all skills taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), Speak Language, and Spellcraft (Int). Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier. Hit die: d4 Class Features The following are features of the spellward prestige class. Weapon and Armor Proficiency Spellwards gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor. Spells per Day/Spells Known When a new spellward level is gained other than at first level, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class to which he belonged before he added the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class to which he belonged before he became an spellward, he must decide to which class he adds each level of spellward for the purpose of determining spells per day. Permanent spell Every time this ability is gained, a spellward may choose a single spell that is an eligible target for Permanency and apply one of the following altered characteristic to a Permanency affecting that chosen spell. 1) When he casts Permanency on a spell that may only be made permanent on himself, the Permanency and the spell so affected is treated as an instantaneous spell. It may no longer be dispelled, but its effects may be suppressed for 1d4 rounds by a targeted dispel magic, just as if it were a magical item. 2) A spell that may only be made permanent on the caster may now be made on another willing creature or an object. 3) When the caster casts Permanency on a spell that may only be made permanent upon objects or areas, the Permanency and the spell affected are treated as an instantaneous spell. It may no longer be dispelled, but it may be suppressed for 1d4 rounds by a targeted dispel magic, just like a magical item. A spellward may choose a spell he may not yet alter with Permanency due to caster level restrictions, but not one in excess of his caster level + half his spellward levels higher rounded up. This does not allow him to circumvent the actual caster level restriction of the Permanency spell. For example, at first level, a spellward with a caster level of 9 may choose Darkvision because it requires a 10th level caster to make Darkvision permanent. However he would have to wait until he gained another caster level to make Darkvision permanent. At the third level of spellward, he may choose a spell two levels higher than his caster level (since ½ of 3 is 1.5 rounded up 2) to be the target of this ability. Improved Permanency Now whenever a spellward casts the spell Permanency the experience cost is reduced by 10% and the spell takes a single round to cast rather than two rounds. Lingering spells The spellward adds one half his spellward level (rounded up) to his caster level for the purposes of spell duration. Spell Persistence A spellward may apply the Persistent spell feat to any spell fourth level or lower that qualifies by sacrificing other spells to do so. He must expend six spell levels for each spell he wishes to augment in this fashion. It takes 15 minutes to augment a spell with this feature and requires complete concentration as if he were preparing a spell. Spell slots used in this fashion are expended until the spellward has an opportunity to rest and regain spells. For example, a wizard 9/spellward 5 chooses to persist 2 of his fourth second level spells. It would take 30 minutes of uninterrupted concentration to do so (15 minutes for 2 spells), and he would have to expend at least 12 spell levels worth of spell slots to do so, such as expending a 6th level slot, and 2 3rd level slots. Any spell levels in excess of the necessary amount to persist spells are lost until he rests and regains his spells, such as if the combination of spell slots expended equaled 13 spell slots worth.
Perseus_Stoned 05-02-07, 10:20 PM	I'm not going to be looking at your more recent post, because I like your first just fine. Ignore the "lame concept" posts. I doubt many people were truly excited over the Wayfarer Guide (teleportation master) in Complete Arcane either. That doesn't mean it's useless or a bad class. I like the flavor behind this more than I do that behind the officially published teleportation master. As you (teshen) stated, this is a great analogy. While "The Wayfarer" didn't necessarily suck, he did in comparison to others. However I think this build is great as it and addresses several concerns, for instance: Since permanency works on different spells at different levels, it's not exactly a fifth level spell... it's an xp sacrifice at 9th level to make some cantrips and 1st level spells permanent. It's a xp sacrifice at 10th and 11th level to make 2nd level spells permanent... and so on. It's more like a weak slotless item creation. Anytime you invest xp in something, it should be important. You're sacrificing long term growth with short term survivablity or versatility, whether it be through the permanency spell or if you make magic items for your party, and thus it takes a little longer for the caster to level than the rest... The higher you go in level, the more magic comes into play. Someone hits you with a targeted dispel to suppress that magic ring you have... and just flushed your permanencies as well... If you level a bit, that permanency that you cast at 9th level doesn't scale as you level so you can pay the experience all over again if you want to improve it... or a stray dispel will kill it, since numbers are no longer remotely on your side for old permanencies... Howver, maybe just increase the requirements for this class. As you said the experience penalties are the annoying thing at higher levels, so lets address those higher levels (with an increased amount of "dispels"). How about access to 7th level spells?
teshen 05-04-07, 09:33 PM	Well, I don't know if anyone noticed the flavor text addition (...which makes me realize how much of the English language I don't use :( ) and one or two minor changes in the original... so I'd just mention it... ...and after seeing greater dispel magic as a third level spell on the trapsmith prc and a couple of different ways one can get access to the spell list of another class... yeah. I think permanency needs a little help.
Tuhljin 05-05-07, 12:13 AM	Why not make it so Linked Permanency doesn't require an additional experience cost if the spell is one cast upon the permanency specialist himself? It really doesn't seem that powerful when it's self-only. 200 xp extra may not seem like much, but why must it cost anything more when the spell is obviously in contact with the caster at all times?
teshen 05-05-07, 12:39 PM	Why not make it so Linked Permanency doesn't require an additional experience cost if the spell is one cast upon the permanency specialist himself? Well, I could make it self only... but I kind of liked the idea of making a spell or two permanent on a friend as well... like arcane sight on your rogue friend once you hit the third level. But I suppose it only really makes sense if the ability is self only. Consider it done.
Tuhljin 05-05-07, 05:17 PM	Well, I meant you could make it so that WHEN you cast a spell on yourself (and only yourself) it costs no extra experience to grant it Linked Permanency, but you are still able to grant the link to spells cast on someone/something else - but in the latter case, there would be an additional experience cost. It would make sense if it was self-only, though... but I think you should be able to, for example, put permanent spells around your stronghold that increase in power as you gain caster levels. (It makes most sense if the object/person you cast it on is something/someone you see fairly often.)
teshen 05-05-07, 08:03 PM	. . . I think you should be able to, for example, put permanent spells around your stronghold that increase in power as you gain caster levels. (It makes most sense if the object/person you cast it on is something/someone you see fairly often.) Good point.
forsaken1111 05-05-07, 08:11 PM	(It makes most sense if the object/person you cast it on is something/someone you see fairly often.) So have it only work when you see them/it.
Kerin 05-06-07, 11:35 AM	This... this is a neat idea. I, personally, am sometimes really irked by just how temporary all the effects in the PHB are, and the somewhat short list of spells Permanency can affect (which, inevitably, makes Permanency seem like it's just a high-level addon for a small number of spells and not an effect in its own right.) I'd probably have a lot of fun playing this class, but I doubt anyone else would really enjoy playing in a party with me - autopermanence isn't really synonymous with "cool." This is certainly an eclectic PrC, but it's most assuredly not a bad one. Good show!
Tuhljin 05-06-07, 05:29 PM	So have it only work when you see them/it. You could make it so that whenever you revisit a spell area - say, be within 10 feet of it? - from something you cast previously you can spend a full round or something "re-attuning" the spell to yourself, which effectively just changes the spell's caster level to your own if it is now higher. I don't think any additional experience cost is even necessary at all - after all, the caster level you use when you first cast the spell doesn't alter the experience cost of permanency. And if you word it right, you gain the bonus of not requiring you to have actually cast permanency on the spell: after all, there are spells with a permanent or just "very long" duration out there that a permanency specialist might cast and would want to raise their caster level. I think so long as the specialist is still able to cast the spell (on her spells known list, though not necessarily prepared) she's "re-attuning" to herself, she should be able to do so.