Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Vorpal Tribble 11-23-07, 10:20 PM	Knight of the Golden Orchard http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/92/54/23035492.jpg Many a druid or fey creature has come to blows with the logger or farmer who wishes to clear the land. In such cases rivalries to outright war can wage between that of civilization and the wilderness. In such situations the Knights of the Golden Orchard are sent for, though most tend to have an uncanny knack for when such troubles are brewing. They settle disputes and forge treaties between the parties. Wood cutters and farmers are kept from clearing out too broad areas or chopping down dryad's trees, while overzealous naturalists or wild beasts are driven away from their harassment and provocation of harmless farmsteads and peaceable villages. Knights of the Golden Orchard are named after the locale from which the organization was founded, a great, wild orchard planted hundreds of years before and left to grow wild. Here man and creatures of the wild lived together, man caring and harvesting their areas, while the beasts and sylvan creatures eating only what they needed within theirs. To protect one from the other, the Knights of the Golden Orchard were forged, living a nomadic life, traveling where they would and accepted by both as intermediaries. The order spread across the land, always heading for where town and city encroached upon the woods and streams. Where they went new orchards were planted as neutral ground, and they give their services in exchange for food and lodging, favors and news. Those that take them for granted and repay them with nothing find their lands are no longer patrolled by the order and left to fend for themselves. Though a Knight of the Golden Orchard is capable of wearing metallic armor, most tend to wear armor fashioned of natural materials such as leather, bone, or if possible, ironwood and leafweave. Knights of the Golden Orchard are as one would suspect mostly made of Knights, though many after they have sworn their oath follow more the ways of the Ranger, the combination the easiest way to enter into the Order. More rarely they instead follow the path of the Druid. Hit Die: d10 Requirements To qualify to become a Knight of the Golden Orchard, a character must fulfill all the following criteria. Alignment: Any non-evil Skills: Knowledge (nature) 6 ranks, Ride 8 ranks, Survival 6 ranks Feat: Track Language: Sylvan Special: Must have been the vassal of and trained by a Knight of the Golden Orchard, Knight's Code class feature, Wild Empathy class feature Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1st +1 +2 +0 +2 Bareback, Inured of Faerie, Knight's Challenge, Wild Empathy 2nd +2 +3 +0 +3 Agile Armor, Forest Shield 3rd +3 +3 +1 +3 Challenge the Beast, Out in the Open 4th +4 +4 +1 +4 Woodland Gallop 5th +5 +4 +1 +4 Bough Battle 6th +6 +5 +2 +5 Awake the Wood 7th +7 +5 +2 +5 Canopy Trail, Low-Light Vision 8th +8 +6 +2 +6 Leader of the Pack 9th +9 +6 +3 +6 Find the Path 10th +10 +7 +3 +7 Honored By the Land Class Skills The Knight of the Golden Orchard’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (geography/nature/nobility and royalty) (Int), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str). Skill Points at Each Level: (4 + Int modifier) -=-=-=-=- Knight of the Golden Orchard Code (in addition to the traditional knight's code) * A Knight of the Golden Orchard does not harm the land. He may clear an area for farm and home, drink of the streams, and make use of its wood but only takes as much as he needs, and only if it does not cause harm to the land as a whole. * A Knight of the Golden Orchard does not manacle the beast. His pets and steeds must be allowed to roam as they will. He must never use barding or saddle upon another creature unless it gives express permission. -=-=-=-=- Class Features All of the following are Class Features of the knight of the golden orchard prestige class. Knight's Challenge: A knight of the golden orchard's levels stack with a knight's for the purpose of determining the number of times he may issue a challenge. Out In the Open (Ex): Starting at 3rd level you can shout out a challenge to shame unseen creatures out into the open. Any target of this ability must have a language of some sort and an intelligence score of 5 or higher. Creatures that do not meed this requirement are immune to Out in the Open (this requirement is potentially negated by the challenge the beast ability below). The creatures must be able to clearly hear your challenge. As a swift action, you can spend one use of your knight's challenge ability to cause all creatures within 100 feet to make Will saves (DC 10 + half your Knight level (PrC and base class) + your Cha modifier. Creatures that fail this save are forced to come out of hiding, dismiss any kind of invisibility, camouflage, blur or dislocation ability, or in some way make their appearance obviously known to you. If the creature is unable to dismiss this they make noise or affects the enviroment in some way so that you can pinpoint its true location. For the duration of your presence they do not attempt to reconceal themselves, nor attempt to sneak up upon you. Fool's Chase (Ex): Starting at 5th level you can shout out a challenge to a single opponent to give chase. Any target of this ability must have a language of some sort and an intelligence score of 5 or higher. Creatures that do not meed this requirement are immune to Fool's Chase (this requirement is potentially negated by the challenge the beast ability below). The creatures must be able to clearly hear your challenge. As a swift action, you can spend one use of your knight's challenge ability to cause this opponent to make a Will save (DC 10 + half your Knight level (PrC and base class) + your Cha modifier. Creatures that fail this save become dermined to catch you at any cost. While in this chase the creature is so focused on you that they pay little heed to their surroundings. They may not use spot or listen checks unless it relates to pursuing the knight. This state lasts for as long as they can hear or see the knight and for 1d4 minutes afterwards. If the pursuer does not know his way about the area, and cannot follow tracks or similar to find his way back, then he becomes hopelessly lost as soon as he is out of familiar territory. Awake the Wood (Su): At 6th level a Knight of the Golden Orchard can expend one use of their knight's challenge ability as a swift action to call upon the forest itself to repay its debt for their protection and care. You may choose from the following for your call to bring forth. Elemental: You may awaken a bit of the forest itself, bringing forth a Medium elemental of the Air, Earth or Water type. These elementals lose the Extraplanar subtype and speak any one language that you know along with the elemental language according to their type. This elemental is friendly towards you. You have no special empathy or connection with the elemental, although it serves you in specific tasks or endeavors if you communicate your desires to it. Only one elemental may be summoned at the same time. Tree: You may awaken a tree warrior as the Liveoak spell, caster level equal to your PrC level. Canopy Trail (Su): At seventh level a Knight of the Golden Orchard can expend one use of their knight's challenge ability as a swift action to call the forest together. While in Medium to Dense forest his command causes branches to knit together, forming a path of branches to support he and his mount if he has one. This path can be reached from the ground by a ramp of boughs that disappears the following round after the Knight has ascended. The path lasts for one minute, plus a number of rounds equal to the Knight's charisma modifier, before safely depositing the knight upon the ground. The knight can continue to expend uses of his knight's challenge ability to continue the trail from minute to minute until they run out of uses. While on this trail the Knight gains full concealment from all angles except from those on the trail with him. Others may use this trail, but unless they succeed on a DC 15 climb check, fall to the ground and take subsequent damage as the branches untwine. Wild Empathy (Ex): A knight of the golden orchard adds their class level to their druid or ranger level when making a wild empathy check. Bareback (Ex): A knight of the golden orchard quickly bonds with any beast he mounts. He may ride any non-evil animal, magical beast or vermin without saddle or barding and takes no penalty from doing such. Innured of Faerie (Ex): A Knight of the Golden Orchard gains a +4 bonus on saving throws against the spell-like abilities of fey. Agile Armor (Ex): A Knight of the Golden Orchard does not take Armor Class Penalties to Balance or Climb checks when using these skills within forest growth, such as trees and vines. Forest Shield (Ex): A Knight of the Golden Orchard knows best to use the cover of the woods to their advantage. If the knight stands or is mounted in the same square as a tree he or his steed gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class and a +2 bonus on Reflex saves, instead of the normal +2 to AC and +1 to reflex. These bonuses don't stack with cover bonuses from other sources. Challenge the Beast (Ex): If you can make the proper knowledge check to identify a creature, you can call out to it in its primitive language or use body language to convey your challenge. You may thus issue a knight's challenge to any creature that has an intelligence score, even if it has no true language. The beast gains a +4 bonus to their saves against the challenge. Woodland Gallop (Ex): When you ride upon your mount you both gain the benefits of the Woodland Stride ability. Bough Battle: A knight of the golden orchard has learned numerous unique martial maneuvers by this time with the aid of his surroundings. Whip Lash (Ex): As a standard action a knight of the golden orchard may grab a branch in passing and pull it along, releasing it into their persuer. This acts as a slash attack with a reach of 1d20+5 feet that deals 1d6 damage plus your strength bonus. Those successfully hit must succeed on a Ride check (DC 10 + Knight's Str mod) or be knocked off. Swing Around (Ex): As a full round action a knight of the golden orchard in persuit by another mounted being may grab an overhanging branch, bar, or equivalent, if one is present, and swing off his mount and spin about to land on his opponent's mount if it is large enough to hold him. This acts as a melee slam attack with a reach of 10 feet that deals 1d4 damage plus your strength bonus. Those successfully hit must succeed on a Ride check (DC 15 + Knight's Str mod) or be knocked off. Low-Light Vision (Ex): At 7th level a Knight of the Golden Orchard has adjusted to the shadows and twilight within even the densest forests and gains low-light vision. Leader of the Pack (Ex): At eighth level a Knight of the Golden Orchard seems to radiate a primal magnificence that animals automatically sense and are cowed by. Unless supernaturally coerced, an animal will not attack a knight of the golden orchard. Those that come within 10 feet must succeed on a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 knight's PrC level + Cha mod) or be affected as by the Charm Animal spell. As well, he gains a +4 bonus on Charisma-based checks in regards to Fey and Magical Beasts. Find the Path (Ex): At ninth level a Knight of the Golden Orchard never gets lost, instinctively knowing the most direct path through natural, above-ground terrain as if having used the Find the Path spell. Honored By the Land (Ex): At tenth level a Knight of the Golden Orchard is honored by the land itself and becomes part of the natural order. He gains the Elemental type and all it's traits, except his soul and body retain its dual nature, for as long as he remains a knight. As well, the Knight may use Speak With Animals, Speak With Plants, and Stone Tell at will, though the latter only works with natural, unworked stone. Ex-knights lose the elemental type and its traits, as well as the ability to speak with the land.
DebiHuman 11-24-07, 01:06 PM	Sounds more viable for an npc than for a pc. "Out in the open" shouldn't be able to cause creaures to dismiss their invisibility or other spell or spell-like abilities because they failed the save as it is not a spell-like or supernatural ability. I can see them coming out for a look but it shouldn't cause rampant stupidity. Fool's Chase is another mind-effecting ability. The save should be for each round and not just one save for the whole chase. Awake wood is a chintzy way of giving the awaken spell. This should be a spell-like ability usable once per week and should be usable only on trees. Elementals don't fit the theme of this prestige class. Bareback should be written that a rider gains a +5 to his ride bareback ability and negates the normal -5 penalty. This should be an ability that should cover groups of mounts not just all broad categories. I don't quite understand "canopy trail." If you are using the trees as a bridge above the ground, you are only less likely to be trailed on the ground. However, you are far more likely to be trailed by the air. You are even more visible in this mode to creatures who can fly. Also, how does this affect your speed? More importantly, how does walking up this way affect your mount? Animals like to be on solid ground. I would have preferred if you had given the knight freedom of movement as supernatural ability while within in the confines of a forest rather than agile armor. This ability really has nothing to do with armor at all, or at least none that you mentioned. I really like "Challenge of the Beast." "Honored by the land" is simply weird. What kind of elemental would such a knight become? I dislike forcing templates on PCs which is why I would only recommend this for NPCs. Of all the abilities, this is the one that I find to be most cumbersome. Debby
The Vorpal Tribble 11-24-07, 07:56 PM	Sounds more viable for an npc than for a pc. [quote]"Out in the open" shouldn't be able to cause creaures to dismiss their invisibility or other spell or spell-like abilities because they failed the save as it is not a spell-like or supernatural ability. I can see them coming out for a look but it shouldn't cause rampant stupidity. Fool's Chase is another mind-effecting ability. The save should be for each round and not just one save for the whole chase. The knight class has abilities very much like these. I'm just going in the same vein. Awake wood is a chintzy way of giving the awaken spell. This should be a spell-like ability usable once per week and should be usable only on trees. Elementals don't fit the theme of this prestige class. Why not? I don't quite understand "canopy trail." If you are using the trees as a bridge above the ground, you are only less likely to be trailed on the ground. However, you are far more likely to be trailed by the air. You are even more visible in this mode to creatures who can fly. The branches make a sort of tunnel. Also, how does this affect your speed? None, considering it is still considered solid ground. More importantly, how does walking up this way affect your mount? Animals like to be on solid ground. They're probably nervous, but nothing t knight can't handle. I would have preferred if you had given the knight freedom of movement as supernatural ability while within in the confines of a forest rather than agile armor. This ability really has nothing to do with armor at all, or at least none that you mentioned. You cannot climb or balance as well in armor. "Honored by the land" is simply weird. What kind of elemental would such a knight become? I dislike forcing templates on PCs which is why I would only recommend this for NPCs. Of all the abilities, this is the one that I find to be most cumbersome. Considering a good many PrC's change the being's type, from Swanmay's making you a fey to an Alienist making you an outsider, I don't see this as unusual. As for what kind, a forest elemental basically. He becomes a basic force of nature, though of no specific type.
DebiHuman 11-26-07, 12:28 PM	Here is why: Although you state that you based this PrC on a knight, you failed to address the differences or similarities. Since not everyone has access to the information you used, you should cite to books and page to make it easier to reference. it's in the PH II and it's also described here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=2 Out in the Open vs. Daunting Challenge: Forcing foes to "come out of hiding, dismiss any kind of invisibility, camouflage, blur or dislocation ability, or in some way make their appearance obviously known to you. If the creature is unable to dismiss this they make noise or affects the enviroment in some way so that you can pinpoint its true location" are a lot of consequences than rather than causing one's foes to become Shaken, which is the only thing a Knight's Daunting Challenge does. Frankly, no PC ability of this caliber should determine the action of a NPC or Monster. "For the duration of your presence they do not attempt to reconceal themselves, nor attempt to sneak up upon you." This is absurd. Why should they not attempt ths? Does being "out in the open" take away a foe's free will and why should it? Just because the Prestige Class must be honorable doesn't mean that its foes will follow suit. This gives the knight a HUGE and I think unfair advantage. As a DM, I'd disallow this class on those abilities alone. Canopy Trail: "While in Medium to Dense forest his command causes branches to knit together, forming a path of branches to support he and his mount if he has one. This path can be reached from the ground by a ramp of boughs that disappears the following round after the Knight has ascended. The path lasts for one minute, plus a number of rounds equal to the Knight's charisma modifier, before safely depositing the knight upon the ground." You failed to adequately describe how the canopy looked. Nowhere did you indicate this was a tunnel. You only mentioned it was a path. Moreover, you neglected to mention how much weight the branches would hold. I am still disappointed that you gloss over any problems a horse or other mount would have walking on a canopy of trees. This is why there is a Ride skill in the first place. The canopy would have to wide enough to accomode the widest part of the horse plus any saddlebags and its riders legs. This is a swath at least 4-feet across. You may think it is solid ground, but I am quite sure the horse is well aware that this is NOT solid ground (even if it feels like it). Unless a horse is practiced in this, it will may very well balk at this or at least reduce its speed. Why should a bunch of knit branches feel like a dirt path? As for a nervous horse--there are rules for controlling one's mount. Whether or not this is an automatic success is up to the DM not just the ability of the PC who has this prestige class. " Agile Armor (Ex): A Knight of the Golden Orchard does not take Armor Class Penalties to Balance or Climb checks when using these skills within forest growth, such as trees and vines. " Frankly, the name of the ability has nothing to do with the description of the ability. Also, rather than not taking penalties, the KotGO should gain a bonus to both Balance and Climb while wearing armor in forested areas. Now let's get to the elemental part of this prestige class. I agree that other prestige classes change a PC's type and perhaps this one should too. However, you have not designed this PrC to adequately support this change. It's almost like you added this as an afterthought. Your designation of this Prestige class is as a defender of the forest. How does becoming an elemental support this designation? An elemental is being comprised of one of the four elementals (air earth fire or water) which of these is suitable for a defender of the forest? I would highly doubt fire. An elemental PC cannot be raised, ressurected or reincarnated. An elemental PC doesn't need to breathe or sleep or eat either. How does this relate to defending a forest which is the KotGO's goal. Furthermore, how does being an elemental support the wearing of natural armor (see your first paragraph). Frankly, I think giving a PC elemental racial bonus as here in the SRD makes a little more sense. See here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm As usual, you have an excellent concept. Debby
dawnbringer 11-26-07, 04:50 PM	Debihuman, a lot of PrCs that turn people into things that can't be ressurected specifically say that they can be ressurected, even though they are of that type. I would think earth elemental being the perfect type for the knight to turn into.
DebiHuman 11-27-07, 11:29 AM	Debihuman, a lot of PrCs that turn people into things that can't be ressurected specifically say that they can be ressurected, even though they are of that type. I would think earth elemental being the perfect type for the knight to turn into. VT didn't specifically say that the KotGO became only earth elementals but I agree this is the most likely for this prestige class. And oops, I admit I missed the part where the elemental Knight kept his dual nature (and I assume also keeps the need to eat, breathe and sleep). They apparently can be raised and ressurected and reincarnated. Mea culpa. However, a medium earth elemental weighs 750 pound which is a heavy load for a warhorse. Do you really think that a canopy of trees can support that much weight (and don't forget the weight of the horse and gear as well)? If the other abilities meshed better with gaining the elemental type, I wouldn't mind. Don't forget that changing into an earth elemental would gain the PC a +9 natural AC! Since speaking Sylvan was a requirement for this PrC it would follow that becoming Fey woud be more consistent. If you end up as an earth elemental, speaking Terran would be more appropriate. It's a few little things that add up to a lot of headaches for anyone who would allow this prestige class. Debby
The Vorpal Tribble 11-27-07, 12:56 PM	Out in the Open vs. Daunting Challenge: Forcing foes to "come out of hiding, dismiss any kind of invisibility, camouflage, blur or dislocation ability, or in some way make their appearance obviously known to you. If the creature is unable to dismiss this they make noise or affects the enviroment in some way so that you can pinpoint its true location" are a lot of consequences than rather than causing one's foes to become Shaken, which is the only thing a Knight's Daunting Challenge does. All it does is have them 'come out into the open'. It does not hurt them, force them to fight, or anything. It shames them into coming into view. Sure, it has uses... but they are pretty specialized. It just removes the element of surprise. Frankly, no PC ability of this caliber should determine the action of a NPC or Monster. Why not? At 4th level a Knight can force an opponent to attack them. "For the duration of your presence they do not attempt to reconceal themselves, nor attempt to sneak up upon you." This is absurd. Why should they not attempt ths? Does being "out in the open" take away a foe's free will and why should it? Just because the Prestige Class must be honorable doesn't mean that its foes will follow suit. The knight's power is in his ability to provoke and manipulate his enemy through their egos. I thought it quite in keeping for him to shame his opponents into coming out of hiding. This gives the knight a HUGE and I think unfair advantage. As a DM, I'd disallow this class on those abilities alone. To use it the knight has to be out in the open and blatantly seen. He's basically having his enemies meet him on the same ground. Why is this unfair? Canopy Trail: You failed to adequately describe how the canopy looked. Nowhere did you indicate this was a tunnel. You only mentioned it was a path. A path that provides concealment from all angles. A covered trail if you like. Didn't think it was necessary to elaborate on every bit of the description as I spelled out the benefits of it. Moreover, you neglected to mention how much weight the branches would hold. As much as entire trees literally bending over backwards to support a creature could. No where in the rule books that I know of is there mention of how much a tree can hold for a creature to climb it, so I frankly have no idea. I am still disappointed that you gloss over any problems a horse or other mount would have walking on a canopy of trees. This is why there is a Ride skill in the first place. The canopy would have to wide enough to accomode the widest part of the horse plus any saddlebags and its riders legs. This is a swath at least 4-feet across. Yes, that is why it only works in the denser forests where there are plenty of branches. You may think it is solid ground, but I am quite sure the horse is well aware that this is NOT solid ground (even if it feels like it). Unless a horse is practiced in this, it will may very well balk at this or at least reduce its speed. Why should a bunch of knit branches feel like a dirt path? As for a nervous horse--there are rules for controlling one's mount. Whether or not this is an automatic success is up to the DM not just the ability of the PC who has this prestige class. One of the points of this class is that the knight has an almost supernatural control over animals. If anyone with the slight skill in riding can have a horse run over a wooden bridge normally, I fail to see why a high-leveled personage with special command over mounts would have a problem. The branches come together evenly and level, and considering the trail is covered, the horse doesn't have to know it's above ground, or if it does, no different than a bridge. " Agile Armor (Ex): A Knight of the Golden Orchard does not take Armor Class Penalties to Balance or Climb checks when using these skills within forest growth, such as trees and vines. " Frankly, the name of the ability has nothing to do with the description of the ability. Also, rather than not taking penalties, the KotGO should gain a bonus to both Balance and Climb while wearing armor in forested areas. 'Agility in Armor' just didn't have the same ring. But they are basically getting a bonus by not taking the normal penalties. Now let's get to the elemental part of this prestige class. I agree that other prestige classes change a PC's type and perhaps this one should too. However, you have not designed this PrC to adequately support this change. It's almost like you added this as an afterthought. Your designation of this Prestige class is as a defender of the forest. How does becoming an elemental support this designation? They become basically a 'law/balance of nature' elemental. They represent the natural order and balance. Also, elementals are supposed to represent unstoppable, unflappable, determined forces. That sounds quite like a knight to me. They aren't a 'nature spirit' like a fey. An elemental is being comprised of one of the four elementals (air earth fire or water) which of these is suitable for a defender of the forest? Actually, an elemental can represent any basic function. Taint elementals for example (Heroes of Horror) are creatures made of the very basic 'element' of evil and corruption. Keep in mind that there are 'omnimentals' which are a mixture of various elements. Think of this fellow as the element of law and nature in general. Almost outsider like, except he's an 'insider' as it were. Furthermore, how does being an elemental support the wearing of natural armor (see your first paragraph). I'm not quite sure what you're asking. Why... couldn't a creature with the elemental type wear armor? However, a medium earth elemental weighs 750 pound which is a heavy load for a warhorse. Do you really think that a canopy of trees can support that much weight (and don't forget the weight of the horse and gear as well)? His nature changes, not his physical appearance. And he doesn't become earth anyways. Since speaking Sylvan was a requirement for this PrC it would follow that becoming Fey woud be more consistent. If you end up as an earth elemental, speaking Terran would be more appropriate. Speaking Sylvan is a requirement because otherwise you would not be able to communicate with the main intelligent type of peoples that occupy the wilds. They are trained in being the go-betweens of civilization and the wilderness. As usual, you have an excellent concept. Thanks.
DebiHuman 11-29-07, 11:27 AM	All it does is have them 'come out into the open'. It does not hurt them, force them to fight, or anything. It shames them into coming into view. Sure, it has uses... but they are pretty specialized. It just removes the element of surprise. Then it should simply do that. You have made this far more complex than is necessary and added more conditions than is appropriate. A special ability should really do just one thing. If all it does is challenge a creature to reveal itself then it should be a matter of save vs. Will with a failure to indicate that the challenge is accepted. How it is done is up to the DM and hamstringing the DM's call is not the baliwick of special abilities. Not all creatures will "show" themselves equally. An arrogant creature might step forward as a show of superiority while a weaker one would simply call out a retort. Both answer the call but do so differently. At 4th level a Knight can force an opponent to attack them. So he can. However, "an opponent compelled to act in this manner is not thrown into a mindless rage and does not have to move to attack you in melee if doing so would provoke attacks of opportunity against him. In such a case, he can use ranged attacks against you or attack any opponents he threatens as normal. If anyone other than you attacks the target, the effect of the test of mettle ends for that specific target." The cowardly oppenent can still hide behind cover and attack. He isn't forced into dropping his advantages. The problem that you have is that most opponents don't have the same mindset as the KotGO to feel shame about their own shortcomings. You need a better mechanic than a simple failure on a Will save. What effect does failing the save actually accomplish? Running away is a perfectly good response to shaming and yet this is completely disallowed by your rules. In fact, your rules said nothing about shaming until you mentioned it now. This is precisely why I think you need to work on your mechanics for affecting oppenents. No where in the rule books that I know of is there mention of how much a tree can hold for a creature to climb it, so I frankly have no idea. Well, a treant with a Str of 29 can carry a max of 1,400 as a heavy load. You could extrapolate from there. BTW, this treant's trunk is 2-feet in diameter. A heavy warhorse (like any large animal) weighs between 500 lbs and 2 tons. A heavy load for a heavy warhorse is 900 lbs max. There are rules already in place for all of this: Carrying capacities and size charts already exist. Yes, you will have to extrapolate some of the information, but if I can do it, so can you. If you are making a new designation as a LAW ELEMENTAL, then it helps if you would state that in the beginning. You cannot use the term elemental as defined by a the TYPE and then say that you meant something completely different. It is frustrating for me when you change terminology to suit your purpose without making it clear that you are doing so. Plus, I don't believe you had this in mind originally when you stated, "He gains the Elemental type and all it's traits, except his soul and body retain its dual nature, for as long as he remains a knight." You said he gained the Elemental type not the law elemental type! This is precisely the problem I had with you over brachiation when you tried to give that ability to a deer. You claimed it was the ability to hop about trees and not swing like a monkey. I'm obviously not going to change your mind but I remain of the opinion that this prestige class is poorly designed, ill-suited to PCs and now, incomprehensible to the general reader. Debby
dawnbringer 11-29-07, 06:31 PM	So he can. However, "an opponent compelled to act in this manner is not thrown into a mindless rage and does not have to move to attack you in melee if doing so would provoke attacks of opportunity against him. In such a case, he can use ranged attacks against you or attack any opponents he threatens as normal. If anyone other than you attacks the target, the effect of the test of mettle ends for that specific target." However, an opponent who came along to try and kill say, a cleric in the party also doens't have the mindset to fight the knight, yet the knight makes him anyway on a will save.
DebiHuman 12-01-07, 12:30 PM	However, an opponent who came along to try and kill say, a cleric in the party also doens't have the mindset to fight the knight, yet the knight makes him anyway on a will save. No, a person who is of a mindset to attack the cleric in the party is by definition a foe to the knight assuming they have any loyalty to each other. This goes to the code of chivalry that most knights have. It's in the spirit of one-for-all and all-for one. However, forcing NON-COMBATANTS (unseen creatures) to respond to a challenge is unchialrous and that is what my initial complaint refers to. If you look at the Knight from the PH 2, the Knight can only challenge foes while already in battle according to the rules. It would be very unchivalrous to call out a challenge to a non-combantant. I've bolded the relevent sections. "Knight's Challenge: Your dauntless fighting spirit plays a major role in your fighting style, as important as the strength of your arm or the sharpness of your blade. In battle, you use the force of your personality to challenge your enemies. You can call out a foe, shouting a challenge that boosts his confidence, or issue a general challenge that strikes fear into weak opponents and compels strong opponents to seek you out for personal combat. By playing on your enemies' ego, you can manipulate your foes." As I read it, the challenge can only take place During a battle and the challenge can only be issued to one's foes. When you compare that to the ability of the Knight of the Golden Orchard: "Out In the Open (Ex): Starting at 3rd level you can shout out a challenge to shame unseen creatures out into the open. Any target of this ability must have a language of some sort and an intelligence score of 5 or higher. Creatures that do not meed this requirement are immune to Out in the Open (this requirement is potentially negated by the challenge the beast ability below). The creatures must be able to clearly hear your challenge." Frankly, shaming an unseen creature who is NOT yet a foe, violates any sense of chivalry. "As a swift action, you can spend one use of your knight's challenge ability to cause all creatures within 100 feet to make Will saves (DC 10 + half your Knight level (PrC and base class) + your Cha modifier. Creatures that fail this save are forced to come out of hiding, dismiss any kind of invisibility, camouflage, blur or dislocation ability, or in some way make their appearance obviously known to you. If the creature is unable to dismiss this they make noise or affects the enviroment in some way so that you can pinpoint its true location. For the duration of your presence they do not attempt to reconceal themselves, nor attempt to sneak up upon you." So now you've succeeded in shaming this creature who cannot attempt to conceal itself. It's rude at best. Nevermind that an unseen creature may be an NPC designed by the DM to HELP the party. And if the creature makes its save, it is going to know exactly what the Knight of the Golden Orchard tried to do and will have good reason to become a combantant. Shaming someone is NOT chivalrous. It is cowardly. I cannot express my loathing for this ability enough. Debby