Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ananvil 05-18-07, 12:02 PM	Is there a PrC with full BaB and [Divine] spell casting progression? Other abilities aren't necessary. [Turn Undead, bonus stuffs]. Thanks!
rone_leah 05-18-07, 12:26 PM	1. They do NOT need it. 2. Me no think so, but me may be wrong
Ananvil 05-18-07, 12:37 PM	Need it or not, I was wondering if there was one. ;) I've looked through all of my books and not found one. Are there any like the Eldritch Knight, losing only one caster level?
Ertai Planeswalker 05-18-07, 12:45 PM	There is the Knight of the Rose iirc, from Dragonlance. However, fulfilling the prereqs can take a campaign by itself.
Lotus Crane 05-18-07, 01:30 PM	A cleric doesn't need a PrC with full BAB; he can have a full BAB anyway (including for his original cleric levels) by casting divine power, which can be made to last 24 hours with Divine Metamagic and Persistent Spell.
StevenO 05-18-07, 01:58 PM	Yes!! The Fochlucan Lyrist offers full BAB, Full Divine casting advancement, and even full Arcane casting advancement all in one class. Never mind that the prereqs will generally require about three other classes which will involve losing BAB and caster levels but hey we were just looking at the PrC right? There are currently no ways to gain full BAB and Divine Casting progression in one PrC without paying for it with earlier missed casting increases. The closest I find is the Hospitaler which offers full BAB but 3/4 divine spellcasting instead of the normal 3/4 BAB with full divine spellcasting. Without some severe prereqs a class that just offered full BAB and full divine casting progression would already be a boon to many clerics. If the loss of turning (and other minor things like Domain power) advancement isn't an issue a Cleric 12/Prc8 doesn't lose ANYTHING for another +2 BAB (another iterative attack), similiar net save bonuses (assuming the PrC only has one good save), and probably more hp (why have more BAB without a bigger HD?)
JulesCARV 05-18-07, 09:13 PM	Well, if clerics are balanced on the assumption that they have weaker spellcasting than wizards or sorcerers, which is what justifies their stronger base attack bonus, hit die, and proficiencies, then a full BAB, full divine spellcasting advancement class is less powerful than a full BAB, full arcane spellcasting advancement class. Full base attack is a bigger "upgrade" for a wizard than for a cleric. Honestly, I don't see why there isn't a class that gives full base attack and, say, 9/10ths divine spellcasting advancement. Given that powergamer types can already use DMM/Persistent spell, this wouldn't make clerics much more powerful, if any, than they already are. If anything, it would be a good way for gamers to play militant clerics who can tank well without resorting to DMM/Persist, which is, after all, widely regarded as a cheesy, overpowered combination. Shouldn't there be alternatives to either playing a divine metamagic user who can tank, but is widely regarded as abusive and giving up too little for his improved power, or playing a cleric who is mediocre (although not terrible) in combat unless he blows a round or two self-buffing? Arcanists have many such prestige classes, after all. Incidentally, there's the Fist of Raziel (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20031012a), but that's exalted, and it probably really is overpowered, not because it's 9/10 divine spellcasting advancement and full base attack, but because it gets so many other features on top of that, such as a bunch of smiting and a continuous magic circle against evil. (Also needed: a good skilled/divine prestige class that doesn't have restrictive flavor and alignment like the shadowbane stalker.)
Cold Napalm 05-18-07, 10:58 PM	Well, if clerics are balanced on the assumption that they have weaker spellcasting than wizards or sorcerers, which is what justifies their stronger base attack bonus, hit die, and proficiencies, then a full BAB, full divine spellcasting advancement class is less powerful than a full BAB, full arcane spellcasting advancement class. Full base attack is a bigger "upgrade" for a wizard than for a cleric. That is one funny assuption. Clerics aren't balanced vs wizards. They blow wizards out of the water...and druid even more so. Honestly, I don't see why there isn't a class that gives full base attack and, say, 9/10ths divine spellcasting advancement. Given that powergamer types can already use DMM/Persistent spell, this wouldn't make clerics much more powerful, if any, than they already are. If anything, it would be a good way for gamers to play militant clerics who can tank well without resorting to DMM/Persist, which is, after all, widely regarded as a cheesy, overpowered combination. Shouldn't there be alternatives to either playing a divine metamagic user who can tank, but is widely regarded as abusive and giving up too little for his improved power, or playing a cleric who is mediocre (although not terrible) in combat unless he blows a round or two self-buffing? Arcanists have many such prestige classes, after all. Incidentally, there's the Fist of Raziel (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20031012a), but that's exalted, and it probably really is overpowered, not because it's 9/10 divine spellcasting advancement and full base attack, but because it gets so many other features on top of that, such as a bunch of smiting and a continuous magic circle against evil. (Also needed: a good skilled/divine prestige class that doesn't have restrictive flavor and alignment like the shadowbane stalker.) Umm I guess it's not broken since it still wouldn't bring clerics up to druid power levels.... And there is a reason the BoED is called the book of cheese in our circle...
Avatar4886 05-19-07, 05:17 AM	Windwalker from FR: Faiths & Pantheons, Full BAB, Full casting and extra goodies too
The_Shaman 05-19-07, 07:03 AM	Windwalker from FR: Faiths & Pantheons, Full BAB, Full casting and extra goodies too Also consider the Verdant Lord in the 3.0 supplement on divinists, it might have had one more PrC with those qualities. In 3.5, the closest is the Sanctified mind from Lords of Madness - 6/6 BAB, 5/6 divine casting or manifesting.
JulesCARV 05-19-07, 12:32 PM	I find it dubious to claim that clerics blow wizards out of the water, but insofar as clerics are stronger, they're stronger in part because they get a better hit die, better armor proficiencies, better base attack bonus, etc. All of that, with the exception of the better armor proficiency, would be irrelevant in the power of a full-base attack bonus, divine spellcasting advancing divine prestige class. As I've been saying, 9/10 spellcasting progression and full base attack bonus would be a smaller boon to clerics than to sorcerers (and, if used as a more balanced alternative to DMM/persistent divine power, not really a boon at all).
Dyne 05-19-07, 07:34 PM	Hospitaler from Complete Divine gets full BAB, 3/4 divine spellcasting, Lay on Hands, Remove Disease, and a few Fighter Bonus Feats. It basically makes Clerics more like a Paladin, but without Smite Evil.
TheDarkLord 05-19-07, 07:40 PM	That is one funny assuption. Clerics aren't balanced vs wizards. They blow wizards out of the water...and druid even more so. I actually find this as one funny assumption ;). Most people believe that at 17th level and beyond the Wizard is the most powerful class, and I tend to agree. Give me a well prepared wizard against any foe, and I'll guarantee a win :D.
NoldorForce 05-19-07, 09:46 PM	Sacred Fist from Complete Divine does, technically speaking. Sure, the table doesn't say this, but the text does, and WotC's policy has generally been "text over table".
JulesCARV 05-19-07, 11:54 PM	Here's my go at it... Mujahid "Even if Hextor had not granted me his favor, I would still fight for him with every ounce of strength in my body -- with flail, bow, and shield." -- Ahmad Hadim, Mujahid Hit die: d8 Requirements To qualify to become a mujahid, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria. Base Attack Bonus: +4 Feat: Power Attack or precise shot Spells: Able to cast Magic Vestment Domains: Access to at least one of the following domains: Destruction, Protection, Strength, or War Class Skills The mujahid's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Heal (Wis), Jump (Str), Knowledge (history/religion), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), and Swim (Str). Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier Table: The Mujahid Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1 +1 +2 +0 +2 Domain and Turn/Rebuke Progression, Bonus Feat 2 +2 +3 +0 +3 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 3 +3 +3 +1 +3 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 4 +4 +4 +1 +4 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 5 +5 +4 +1 +4 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 6 +6 +5 +2 +5 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 7 +7 +5 +2 +5 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 8 +8 +6 +2 +6 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 9 +9 +6 +3 +6 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 10 +10 +7 +3 +7 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class Class Features: All of the following are class features of the mujahid prestige class. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Mujahideen are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, all armor, and all shields except tower sheilds. Domain and Turning/Rebuking Progression: Mujahid levels count as cleric levels for the purposes of level-dependent domain powers, such as the strength domain's bonus to strength for one daily action. In addition, if the mujahid previously had the ability to turn or rebuke undead, mujahid levels stack with whatever class previously granted the ability Bonus Feat: At first level, the Mujahid gains one bonus feat. The bonus feat may either be a divine feat or a feat from the list of fighter bonus feats. Spells per day: At every level except first, when a new mujahid level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in whatever divine spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mujahid to the level of whatever other divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly. If a character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming a mujahid, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.
StevenO 05-20-07, 04:19 PM	That EK variatation is a little better than it probably should be. There is nothing keeping a straigh cleric out which I dislike. In a Cleric 10/Mujahid10 build you only trade one spellcasting level in for +2 BAB, +2 Fort and Will saves, all martial weapons, AND a bonus feat. Some may say that isn't a fair trade but I think it is plenty good. As an aside a Cleric 12/Mujahid 8 would have EXACTLY the same final stats. IF you want to build a full BAB cleric on the Eldritch Knight model that is easy enough although the gains should remain minimal. Using the EK as the base make the following changes: HD d10 Prereqs. Change Arcane Spells to Divine Spells (or specific 3rd level spell) Add Domain requirement if desired but is generally unneeded. Skills: Combine Cleric and Paladins list and you'll be great. Good BAB but only Good Fort Save. Class features: At level one: Domain Progression - treat your cleric level for domain powers as your divine caster level; Bonus fighter or divine feat Everything after that: +1 level of divine spellcasting class So similar to the previous Mujahid but basically taking away two spellcasting levels (and not advancing Turn Undead) make it very different. If used after taking a level in Dragonslayer for the Martial Weapon requirement you don't even take a casting level hit pre-entry.
calronmoonflower 05-20-07, 04:21 PM	Consecrated Harrier (separate spell progression) Holy Liberator (separate spell progression) Hospitaler Pious Templar (separate spell progression) Sacred Fist Shining Blade of Heironous Warpriest All from the Complete Divine.