Prestige Class for an Abjurationist [Archive] - Wizards Community

Prestige Class for an Abjurationist [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Karui_Kage
02-21-08, 09:38 PM I have a friend of mine that is looking for a new prestige class. He is currently a Dwarven Wizard (Abjurer) 5 / Master Specialist 9. He will be finishing Master Specialist next level and is looking for a good prestige to help him continue enhancing his abilities to the fullest.

From what I understand, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil is banned, and its WotC books only.

Thanks!
dman11235
02-21-08, 10:36 PM Ouch. I was going to just come here and say "wiz 3/MS 10/IotSFV 7". But that's kind of shot down. Well, if you had the feats for it, then Archmage is always a good bet. But I would need to know more about this character to give more advice. So...stats, feats, skills, and what the heck you want to do. I think I may have it that you want to be an abjurer, but anything else about combat that you want to do would be much help.
Karui_Kage
02-21-08, 10:50 PM Here's his character sheet: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=24951
dman11235
02-21-08, 11:09 PM That's amazingly awesome, but I also need to know the direction the character is going. The way it's set up, there are a ton of PrCs he can take, even Archmage, since he only needs one more Spell Focus.

EDIT: Also, what schools banned, and why doesn't he have Heart of Fire up?
Sparrowlark
02-21-08, 11:29 PM I am the player in question, so I guess I should be able to answer these questions. :)

Illusion and Enchantment are my barred schools. Heart of Fire is up just not noted on sheet as I haven't updated that part of it.

My character loves spells that he can cast and keep up, Superior Resistance, Greater Mage Armor, the Heart Spells, Adamantine Wings, etc...

I do like the IoSFV because of the dificulty in dispelling active spells, but as mentioned it is banned.

The character tends to try to use spells to end things quickly, prismatic spray, disentegrate, dismissal. It is an undead heavy campaign.
calronmoonflower
02-21-08, 11:35 PM Well it has already been said, but archemage is good.

Abjurant Champion (Complete Mage) could work as well.
Sparrowlark
02-21-08, 11:40 PM So I have been leaning towards Archmage, but wanted to see if there was something out there that I was missing.

Spell Focus Evocation would probably be the feat I would take to qualify.

Any advice on High Arcana?

Abjurant Champion is something I have looked at, however I am a little far in my career to get martial weapon proficiency without dipping into a martial class. I probably would have gone into it if it actually gave a bonus to mage armor like it suggests it does.
dman11235
02-21-08, 11:46 PM Not really. You'd need two feats to pull it off, and the benefits probably won't be all that hot for you. Sure the auto quicken 3rd or lower abjurations is nice, but the main benefits of the PrC are mostly for gishes.

Well, then Archmage could be a great addition. The spell like ability, spell power, and masteries of shaping and elements, and reach could be your best bets. If you counter spell a lot (I'm guessing you don't) then the counter spell one would be great.

I'm actually at a loss for good PrCs for you. I can't comment on Incantatrix as I don't have the book, and don't think many PrCs would be that great for you. Maybe fatespinner? Up the DCs of your spells?

EDIT: It doesn't actually suggest that it gives a bonus to Mage Armor. It just says that they rely on it. If you were exalted, then you could use Luminous Armor, and that would gain the bonus from class levels.
StevenO
02-22-08, 12:15 AM If you can get that Martial Weapon and have the Combat Casting Prereq you should still go Abjurant Champion. Level one is a FREE Extend Spell for all your Abjuration spells and you may have a lot of those; it may not help your "once per encounter" spells (ie 1 round/level duration) but can help anything longer than that. At second level you gain the ability to pop off minor abjurations at quicken speed up to the 3rd level spells at AbC 5; depending on how your opponents buff a Quickened Dispel Magic along with one of your other spells is a great opening number. All of this is great for your magic alone even without considering Abjurant Armor, the full BAB, and the HUGE HD.
dman11235
02-22-08, 12:23 AM Judging by the AC of this character, I am assuming that you use other ways of not getting hit, as that AC is terrible. So what you could do (since you are good aligned) is take Abjurant Champion somehow, and then prepare a Greater Luminous Armor every morning, to give yourself a good +13 AC. And StevenO is right: those HD are tasty, and so is the free extend.

EDIT for grrness (I keep posting before I'm ready): See if you could retrain a feat. Improved Familiar isn't all that hot, since familiars aren't all that hot.
Sparrowlark
02-22-08, 12:50 AM Yes my AC is crap. If I get into deep crap I usually dismiss heart of stone for the stoneskin effect. I also have a bit of hitpoints so I can usually take the first couple of hits in order to get out of combat.

So in order to take Abjurant Champion I need to take a class that will give me Martial Weapons. Any suggestions? This will also prevent me from gaining the 5th level of the PrC.

Improved Familiar was not my first idea for a feat, it came up as a roleplaying issue in the campaign and I took it for flavor (Damn you Flavor! Damn you :) )

However with the imbue familiar with spells spell the pseudo dragon does work as a quicken spell a bit.
Karui_Kage
02-22-08, 12:53 AM Mechanically, I'd suggest just a level of Fighter. Bonus feat that way, and it's the favored class for dwarf, so you wouldn't take any experience penalties. Any other class would incur those unfortunately.

Not sure how it would make too much sense for Felnorn though, he's never really been the up front type from what I remembered. I don't think he ever used a weapon even besides a wand. I'm sure you could find a way to make it work though.
calronmoonflower
02-22-08, 03:07 AM Ug, multiclass penalty with anything other than a fighter.
StevenO
02-22-08, 03:53 AM Besides just spending a feat for a Martial Weapon (you only need one for Abjurant Champ) you may be able to get Dragonslayer (Draconomicon) but if you can't spare a feat for a weapon you probably can't get into that class either. There are any number of other PrCs that grant martial weapons as well.
Bergtann
02-22-08, 03:57 AM Are there not some PrCs that give weapon proficiencies?

Edit: Ninja'ed.
Sparrowlark
02-22-08, 02:49 PM Thanks for all the help everyone, I think I am going to go with Fatespinner for at least the next 4 levels. No Feats needed, and with my dice rolling luck it could really come in handy.
Fabius Maximus
02-24-08, 08:29 PM What about Runesmith from Races of Stone? You'll also need a level of Fighter and a few skill points in Craft (stoneworking), but casting in heavy armor is nice.
The_Shaman
02-25-08, 01:19 AM You can always take Mage of the Arcane Order or a similar general utility wizard PrC... Though I agree, Archmage is pretty nice if you can spare the feats.Even loremaster isn't too bad, either - if you have the option, iirc from Complete mage or scoundrel, that lets you find special locations as treasure. There was one - the frog fane iirc - that lets you get a skill focus (knowledge) feat if you meet the conditions.
Shadowhowler
02-25-08, 10:59 PM If Re-training is allowed, I would certainly retrain two feats (one of which should certainly be Improved familiar becuase, as another poster mentioned, familiars are troublesome anyway) and Take Abjurant Champion. It would synergize very well with your character I would think, and is just about the most awesome 5 level PrC for any wizard... let alone the fact that you are actualy an Abjurationist.
?Aeolus?
02-28-08, 07:12 AM .. let alone the fact that you are actualy an Abjurer.

:rolleye2:
Shadowhowler
02-28-08, 02:08 PM :rolleye2:

Hm.

Perhaps you could get over yourself? There really is no call for the malicious
nature of your psudo-sarcastic post.
?Aeolus?
02-28-08, 04:51 PM No sarcasm or malice intended. Just wanted to help (you know, I'd be glad to constantly learn stuff; I know, you can't sense such things over the internet, but that just means that you shouldn't jump on every suspicion).
Shadowhowler
02-28-08, 10:28 PM No sarcasm or malice intended. Just wanted to help (you know, I'd be glad to constantly learn stuff; I know, you can't sense such things over the internet, but that just means that you shouldn't jump on every suspicion).

The rolling eyes was your non sarcastic, non malicious way of 'helping'?

Hm.

"With friends like these... who needs enemies."
The_Shaman
02-29-08, 01:51 PM Oh, come on now. He might have been somewhat snarky, but he had a point: it is called abjurer, not abjurationist. The less mistakes like that you make, the more seriously people treat you.

Anyway, you might disagree but I'd say Abjurant champion is less impressive for pure mages - at least those who must blow a feat on weapon proficiency (unlike, say, elves). Sure, your low-level abjurations are somewhat more powerful, but a few archmage levels can give you nicer stuff than auto-extend of 1 single school or a somewhat better shield spell. Besides, for his build his feats can be useful; the 2 feats he will have to spend on AC are essentially useless to a real wizard.

And as for familiars... sure, they need some care, but they can be worth your time if you know how to use them. Just like wizard spells, for that matter ;)
dman11235
02-29-08, 02:59 PM Fewer The_Shaman, the fewer mistakes you make, not less mistakes you make.

I'm sorry, it was just ironic.
Shadowhowler
02-29-08, 04:29 PM Oh, come on now. He might have been somewhat snarky, but he had a point: it is called abjurer, not abjurationist. The less mistakes like that you make, the more seriously people treat you.

I just think there is no cuase to be 'snarky' as you put it in the first place. I've been playing RPG's over 15 years... and everyone who read that post knows exatly what I ment. Saying Abjurationist vs Abjurer did not in any way make my post less understandable. The comment is pointless and snippy, and the internet comunity needs a LOT less of that crap.

However... your points about Archmage vs Abjurant Champion are valid and well taken. I think the Abjurant Champ is more usefull to a pure caster then mybe you do... becuase extra HP and BAB and the class features are CERTIANLY useful... and even moreso becuase he is, in fact, an *ABJURER*.

:P

The weapon requirment is a pain in the butt for non elves, your right about that. Archmage does have a lot of nifty abilities. I just think that being an *ABJURER* & a Master Specialist, the Abjurant Champion is a better fit thematicly.

However... only the OP knows for sure... since it's his character.
The_Shaman
02-29-08, 09:08 PM Fewer The_Shaman, the fewer mistakes you make, not less mistakes you make.

I'm sorry, it was just ironic.

Hmm, I thought both were valid forms. Are you sure about that? I wasn't very concentrated when I wrote that, but it would be good to know regardless.

@shadowhowler: you're right about HP, but BAB is usually less impressive - some of the greatest wizard spells don't need attack rolls to begin with. Apart from that, Abjurant champion gives some useful features, no doubt about that - but they are not necessarily the best for one's build.
dman11235
02-29-08, 09:11 PM Yeah.

EDIT: If 'm wrong though (and I may be, I'm no English major), don't hold it over me. I have someone else to blame since I checked with them.
Shadowhowler
03-01-08, 11:15 AM Yeah.

EDIT: If 'm wrong though (and I may be, I'm no English major), don't hold it over me. I have someone else to blame since I checked with them.

Heh, way to C.Y.O.A.
dman11235
03-01-08, 11:53 AM Hehehe!
The_Shaman
03-01-08, 12:23 PM Heh, way to C.Y.O.A.

Errr... the last 3 are "your own argument" but I'm having several ideas on what the "C" stands for. Cut, perhaps?
elyse
03-14-08, 11:40 AM Personally I'm not a fan of Abjurant Champion but it seems like a lot of people are these days. I don't think that the two-level dip is worth it because it only works on first-level spells (my Abjurer casts shield from a wand and preps a Hold Portal just in case we have to run away in a dungeon and that doesn't need to be a swift action anytime soon).

Archmage is always the correct choice. Master of Counterspelling is good (if you counter of course), Spell Power is also always good and I think Master of Shaping is also useful (depending how much you're into evo spells).

Fatespinner is a very good class and you could consider taking levels of it, but you'd need some ranks in Profession(gambler).

I think archmage is the way to go since Initiate is banned

Along those lines--what else is banned?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Karui_Kage 02-21-08, 09:38 PM	I have a friend of mine that is looking for a new prestige class. He is currently a Dwarven Wizard (Abjurer) 5 / Master Specialist 9. He will be finishing Master Specialist next level and is looking for a good prestige to help him continue enhancing his abilities to the fullest. From what I understand, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil is banned, and its WotC books only. Thanks!
dman11235 02-21-08, 10:36 PM	Ouch. I was going to just come here and say "wiz 3/MS 10/IotSFV 7". But that's kind of shot down. Well, if you had the feats for it, then Archmage is always a good bet. But I would need to know more about this character to give more advice. So...stats, feats, skills, and what the heck you want to do. I think I may have it that you want to be an abjurer, but anything else about combat that you want to do would be much help.
Karui_Kage 02-21-08, 10:50 PM	Here's his character sheet: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=24951
dman11235 02-21-08, 11:09 PM	That's amazingly awesome, but I also need to know the direction the character is going. The way it's set up, there are a ton of PrCs he can take, even Archmage, since he only needs one more Spell Focus. EDIT: Also, what schools banned, and why doesn't he have Heart of Fire up?
Sparrowlark 02-21-08, 11:29 PM	I am the player in question, so I guess I should be able to answer these questions. :) Illusion and Enchantment are my barred schools. Heart of Fire is up just not noted on sheet as I haven't updated that part of it. My character loves spells that he can cast and keep up, Superior Resistance, Greater Mage Armor, the Heart Spells, Adamantine Wings, etc... I do like the IoSFV because of the dificulty in dispelling active spells, but as mentioned it is banned. The character tends to try to use spells to end things quickly, prismatic spray, disentegrate, dismissal. It is an undead heavy campaign.
calronmoonflower 02-21-08, 11:35 PM	Well it has already been said, but archemage is good. Abjurant Champion (Complete Mage) could work as well.
Sparrowlark 02-21-08, 11:40 PM	So I have been leaning towards Archmage, but wanted to see if there was something out there that I was missing. Spell Focus Evocation would probably be the feat I would take to qualify. Any advice on High Arcana? Abjurant Champion is something I have looked at, however I am a little far in my career to get martial weapon proficiency without dipping into a martial class. I probably would have gone into it if it actually gave a bonus to mage armor like it suggests it does.
dman11235 02-21-08, 11:46 PM	Not really. You'd need two feats to pull it off, and the benefits probably won't be all that hot for you. Sure the auto quicken 3rd or lower abjurations is nice, but the main benefits of the PrC are mostly for gishes. Well, then Archmage could be a great addition. The spell like ability, spell power, and masteries of shaping and elements, and reach could be your best bets. If you counter spell a lot (I'm guessing you don't) then the counter spell one would be great. I'm actually at a loss for good PrCs for you. I can't comment on Incantatrix as I don't have the book, and don't think many PrCs would be that great for you. Maybe fatespinner? Up the DCs of your spells? EDIT: It doesn't actually suggest that it gives a bonus to Mage Armor. It just says that they rely on it. If you were exalted, then you could use Luminous Armor, and that would gain the bonus from class levels.
StevenO 02-22-08, 12:15 AM	If you can get that Martial Weapon and have the Combat Casting Prereq you should still go Abjurant Champion. Level one is a FREE Extend Spell for all your Abjuration spells and you may have a lot of those; it may not help your "once per encounter" spells (ie 1 round/level duration) but can help anything longer than that. At second level you gain the ability to pop off minor abjurations at quicken speed up to the 3rd level spells at AbC 5; depending on how your opponents buff a Quickened Dispel Magic along with one of your other spells is a great opening number. All of this is great for your magic alone even without considering Abjurant Armor, the full BAB, and the HUGE HD.
dman11235 02-22-08, 12:23 AM	Judging by the AC of this character, I am assuming that you use other ways of not getting hit, as that AC is terrible. So what you could do (since you are good aligned) is take Abjurant Champion somehow, and then prepare a Greater Luminous Armor every morning, to give yourself a good +13 AC. And StevenO is right: those HD are tasty, and so is the free extend. EDIT for grrness (I keep posting before I'm ready): See if you could retrain a feat. Improved Familiar isn't all that hot, since familiars aren't all that hot.
Sparrowlark 02-22-08, 12:50 AM	Yes my AC is crap. If I get into deep crap I usually dismiss heart of stone for the stoneskin effect. I also have a bit of hitpoints so I can usually take the first couple of hits in order to get out of combat. So in order to take Abjurant Champion I need to take a class that will give me Martial Weapons. Any suggestions? This will also prevent me from gaining the 5th level of the PrC. Improved Familiar was not my first idea for a feat, it came up as a roleplaying issue in the campaign and I took it for flavor (Damn you Flavor! Damn you :) ) However with the imbue familiar with spells spell the pseudo dragon does work as a quicken spell a bit.
Karui_Kage 02-22-08, 12:53 AM	Mechanically, I'd suggest just a level of Fighter. Bonus feat that way, and it's the favored class for dwarf, so you wouldn't take any experience penalties. Any other class would incur those unfortunately. Not sure how it would make too much sense for Felnorn though, he's never really been the up front type from what I remembered. I don't think he ever used a weapon even besides a wand. I'm sure you could find a way to make it work though.
calronmoonflower 02-22-08, 03:07 AM	Ug, multiclass penalty with anything other than a fighter.
StevenO 02-22-08, 03:53 AM	Besides just spending a feat for a Martial Weapon (you only need one for Abjurant Champ) you may be able to get Dragonslayer (Draconomicon) but if you can't spare a feat for a weapon you probably can't get into that class either. There are any number of other PrCs that grant martial weapons as well.
Bergtann 02-22-08, 03:57 AM	Are there not some PrCs that give weapon proficiencies? Edit: Ninja'ed.
Sparrowlark 02-22-08, 02:49 PM	Thanks for all the help everyone, I think I am going to go with Fatespinner for at least the next 4 levels. No Feats needed, and with my dice rolling luck it could really come in handy.
Fabius Maximus 02-24-08, 08:29 PM	What about Runesmith from Races of Stone? You'll also need a level of Fighter and a few skill points in Craft (stoneworking), but casting in heavy armor is nice.
The_Shaman 02-25-08, 01:19 AM	You can always take Mage of the Arcane Order or a similar general utility wizard PrC... Though I agree, Archmage is pretty nice if you can spare the feats.Even loremaster isn't too bad, either - if you have the option, iirc from Complete mage or scoundrel, that lets you find special locations as treasure. There was one - the frog fane iirc - that lets you get a skill focus (knowledge) feat if you meet the conditions.
Shadowhowler 02-25-08, 10:59 PM	If Re-training is allowed, I would certainly retrain two feats (one of which should certainly be Improved familiar becuase, as another poster mentioned, familiars are troublesome anyway) and Take Abjurant Champion. It would synergize very well with your character I would think, and is just about the most awesome 5 level PrC for any wizard... let alone the fact that you are actualy an Abjurationist.
?Aeolus? 02-28-08, 07:12 AM	.. let alone the fact that you are actualy an Abjurer. :rolleye2:
Shadowhowler 02-28-08, 02:08 PM	:rolleye2: Hm. Perhaps you could get over yourself? There really is no call for the malicious nature of your psudo-sarcastic post.
?Aeolus? 02-28-08, 04:51 PM	No sarcasm or malice intended. Just wanted to help (you know, I'd be glad to constantly learn stuff; I know, you can't sense such things over the internet, but that just means that you shouldn't jump on every suspicion).
Shadowhowler 02-28-08, 10:28 PM	No sarcasm or malice intended. Just wanted to help (you know, I'd be glad to constantly learn stuff; I know, you can't sense such things over the internet, but that just means that you shouldn't jump on every suspicion). The rolling eyes was your non sarcastic, non malicious way of 'helping'? Hm. "With friends like these... who needs enemies."
The_Shaman 02-29-08, 01:51 PM	Oh, come on now. He might have been somewhat snarky, but he had a point: it is called abjurer, not abjurationist. The less mistakes like that you make, the more seriously people treat you. Anyway, you might disagree but I'd say Abjurant champion is less impressive for pure mages - at least those who must blow a feat on weapon proficiency (unlike, say, elves). Sure, your low-level abjurations are somewhat more powerful, but a few archmage levels can give you nicer stuff than auto-extend of 1 single school or a somewhat better shield spell. Besides, for his build his feats can be useful; the 2 feats he will have to spend on AC are essentially useless to a real wizard. And as for familiars... sure, they need some care, but they can be worth your time if you know how to use them. Just like wizard spells, for that matter ;)
dman11235 02-29-08, 02:59 PM	Fewer The_Shaman, the fewer mistakes you make, not less mistakes you make. I'm sorry, it was just ironic.
Shadowhowler 02-29-08, 04:29 PM	Oh, come on now. He might have been somewhat snarky, but he had a point: it is called abjurer, not abjurationist. The less mistakes like that you make, the more seriously people treat you. I just think there is no cuase to be 'snarky' as you put it in the first place. I've been playing RPG's over 15 years... and everyone who read that post knows exatly what I ment. Saying Abjurationist vs Abjurer did not in any way make my post less understandable. The comment is pointless and snippy, and the internet comunity needs a LOT less of that crap. However... your points about Archmage vs Abjurant Champion are valid and well taken. I think the Abjurant Champ is more usefull to a pure caster then mybe you do... becuase extra HP and BAB and the class features are CERTIANLY useful... and even moreso becuase he is, in fact, an ABJURER. :P The weapon requirment is a pain in the butt for non elves, your right about that. Archmage does have a lot of nifty abilities. I just think that being an ABJURER & a Master Specialist, the Abjurant Champion is a better fit thematicly. However... only the OP knows for sure... since it's his character.
The_Shaman 02-29-08, 09:08 PM	Fewer The_Shaman, the fewer mistakes you make, not less mistakes you make. I'm sorry, it was just ironic. Hmm, I thought both were valid forms. Are you sure about that? I wasn't very concentrated when I wrote that, but it would be good to know regardless. @shadowhowler: you're right about HP, but BAB is usually less impressive - some of the greatest wizard spells don't need attack rolls to begin with. Apart from that, Abjurant champion gives some useful features, no doubt about that - but they are not necessarily the best for one's build.
dman11235 02-29-08, 09:11 PM	Yeah. EDIT: If 'm wrong though (and I may be, I'm no English major), don't hold it over me. I have someone else to blame since I checked with them.
Shadowhowler 03-01-08, 11:15 AM	Yeah. EDIT: If 'm wrong though (and I may be, I'm no English major), don't hold it over me. I have someone else to blame since I checked with them. Heh, way to C.Y.O.A.
dman11235 03-01-08, 11:53 AM	Hehehe!
The_Shaman 03-01-08, 12:23 PM	Heh, way to C.Y.O.A. Errr... the last 3 are "your own argument" but I'm having several ideas on what the "C" stands for. Cut, perhaps?
elyse 03-14-08, 11:40 AM	Personally I'm not a fan of Abjurant Champion but it seems like a lot of people are these days. I don't think that the two-level dip is worth it because it only works on first-level spells (my Abjurer casts shield from a wand and preps a Hold Portal just in case we have to run away in a dungeon and that doesn't need to be a swift action anytime soon). Archmage is always the correct choice. Master of Counterspelling is good (if you counter of course), Spell Power is also always good and I think Master of Shaping is also useful (depending how much you're into evo spells). Fatespinner is a very good class and you could consider taking levels of it, but you'd need some ranks in Profession(gambler). I think archmage is the way to go since Initiate is banned Along those lines--what else is banned?