Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Myrhdraak 05-31-07, 04:01 PM	I have a barbarian character which focuses on two-weapon fighting with large weapons. I am trying to find some good prestige class that would help me in that direction. I am a 5th level Barbarian/2nd level Ranger and have the following major feats: Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Monkey Grip, and Improved Initiative. I have had a look at the Tempest and Dervish Dancer, but it does not really fit in with the image (no dancing barbarians please!). Have I missed some good combination? Any suggestions?
bobothechimp 05-31-07, 04:28 PM	The feat, Oversized Two-Weapon fighting (in Complete Adventurer, IIRC), allows you to treat a one-handed off-hand weapon as a light weapon for the purpouses of TWF penalties.
Kalarus 05-31-07, 04:42 PM	Sorry, Tempest and Dervish spring to mind, can't think of any off the bat. I can imagine I guess the no dancing Barbarian, but why no Tempest? I am curious about something though. TWF with Large weapons?? Wielding a large light weapon in the offhand, counts as wielding a onehanded medium weapon at a -2 penalty. Monkey grip allows you to wield a weapon one size category larger, at a -2 penalty, so that evens out. Wielding a large non-light weapon in the offhand, grants another -2. A large light weapon generally does the equivalent damage of a medium onehander however so I am not sure why you would wield a large light weapon, ever. Wielding a large onehanded weapon in the primary hand is normally a twohander at -2, however Monkey Grip allows you to wield it in one hand, still at a -2. Alternatively a Huge light weapon at an additional -2. I am curious, you are at least at -4/-4 to hit. If you are not offhanding a light weapon, you are at -6/-4 to hit, which is not likely because a light large weapon just gives you -2 to hit and no damage bonus over a medium onehanded weapon, leaving you at -4/-4, while offhanding a medium onehander leaves you at -6/-4. What the heck motivated you to choose this build, and what are you wielding exactly??
Crimson_Concerto 05-31-07, 04:46 PM	Bloodclaw Master (Tome of Battle) is pretty good, if I remember correctly. It one point it lets you add your full STR mod to your offhand attacks, and I also think it eliminates or at least reduced TWF penalties.
Karzach 05-31-07, 04:47 PM	I'd suggest the bloodclaw master from ToB. You'll need to spend a feat to pick up a Tiger Claw manuever, but it reduces the penalties from -2/-2 to 0/0 with a light off-hand weapon. It also allows you to apply your full strength modifier to off-hand damage rolls. It also allows you to shift 3 times a day (+2 strength, pair of claw attacks, lasts 3 + con mod rounds, stacks with rage). The only real issue is that it doesn't have a full BAB, but its only a 5 level PrC. Aaaaand Crimson beat me to it
Crimson_Concerto 05-31-07, 04:51 PM	Wielding a large light weapon in the offhand, counts as wielding a onehanded medium weapon at a -2 penalty. Monkey grip allows you to wield a weapon one size category larger, at a -2 penalty, so that evens out. Wielding a large non-light weapon in the offhand, grants another -2. A large light weapon generally does the equivalent damage of a medium onehander however so I am not sure why you would wield a large light weapon, ever.. . . Okay, I don't know what you're even talking about here or why. Monkey Grip doesn't work for off-hand weapons.
Myrhdraak 05-31-07, 05:35 PM	Sorry, Tempest and Dervish spring to mind, can't think of any off the bat. I can imagine I guess the no dancing Barbarian, but why no Tempest? I am curious about something though. TWF with Large weapons?? Wielding a large light weapon in the offhand, counts as wielding a onehanded medium weapon at a -2 penalty. Monkey grip allows you to wield a weapon one size category larger, at a -2 penalty, so that evens out. Wielding a large non-light weapon in the offhand, grants another -2. A large light weapon generally does the equivalent damage of a medium onehander however so I am not sure why you would wield a large light weapon, ever. Wielding a large onehanded weapon in the primary hand is normally a twohander at -2, however Monkey Grip allows you to wield it in one hand, still at a -2. Alternatively a Huge light weapon at an additional -2. I am curious, you are at least at -4/-4 to hit. If you are not offhanding a light weapon, you are at -6/-4 to hit, which is not likely because a light large weapon just gives you -2 to hit and no damage bonus over a medium onehanded weapon, leaving you at -4/-4, while offhanding a medium onehander leaves you at -6/-4. What the heck motivated you to choose this build, and what are you wielding exactly?? Today I use a Large Longsword in the main-hand (similar to Greatsword in statistics) and a shortsword, or a Large Greatsword for Two-handed combat. But it would be cool to also have something larger in the offhand. We are also running some house rules, basically converting D&D to the old Runequest system (AC turns to absorbtion. Introduces both critical and serious hits, with quite high chance to hit, but instead you have to deal massive amount of damage to go through high absorbtion). Based on this system a -2 or -4 would just reduce my 95% hit chance with 10-20%, which is still quite fine if I can increase the maximum damage I can do.
Myrhdraak 05-31-07, 05:50 PM	I'd suggest the bloodclaw master from ToB. You'll need to spend a feat to pick up a Tiger Claw manuever, but it reduces the penalties from -2/-2 to 0/0 with a light off-hand weapon. It also allows you to apply your full strength modifier to off-hand damage rolls. It also allows you to shift 3 times a day (+2 strength, pair of claw attacks, lasts 3 + con mod rounds, stacks with rage). The only real issue is that it doesn't have a full BAB, but its only a 5 level PrC. Aaaaand Crimson beat me to it Never had a look in ToB. Reading it I noticed it has some entry level requirements of knowing 3 Tiger claws maneuvers as well as most of the benefits only apply to small weapons - Ursus like BIG WEAPONS ;-)
Myrhdraak 05-31-07, 05:54 PM	The feat, Oversized Two-Weapon fighting (in Complete Adventurer, IIRC), allows you to treat a one-handed off-hand weapon as a light weapon for the purpouses of TWF penalties. I have considered that one, but was hoping to maybe find it as a prestige class benefit rather than to having to take a feat in it (next feat will be improved critical), similar as the Dervish Dancer has for scimitars. However, could be a cool option for 12th level.
Apupunchau 05-31-07, 06:01 PM	The man who said Tempest and Dervish is right. Dual Weild Scimitars which will both ocount as light weaposn due to dervish so the penalty is -2/-2 and then at level 2 and level 4 of tempest the penalty goes down by -1 each time so by the time you get to Fighter 5 (the earliest you can take Dervish) Dervish 5 and Tempest 5 you'll be getting something like 6 attacks per round and the ability to move between each attack. From dervish you'll also get the cleave feat and +1 to attacka and damage at every odd level. If you don't like that Fighter/Exotic Weapon Master/Tempest with a two bladeswords. And if you want to use two different weapons Tempest lets you apply all feats like weapon Focus, WEapon Specialization and other such feats to any other weapon you hold as long as you hold the weapon you have them for as well.
inkeyeshasthecoolestart 05-31-07, 06:14 PM	One suggestion i have to make is to drop the longsord and make it shortsword, and then go dervish. now that would be crazy. A raging barbarian weilind oversized weapons while doing a dervish dance. Edit* Ah know i see that you didnt want it. I still think that a dancing raging barbarian would be just amazing.
Kalarus 05-31-07, 07:03 PM	. . . Okay, I don't know what you're even talking about here or why. Monkey Grip doesn't work for off-hand weapons. He mentioned TWF "with Large weapons". I didn't bother to reread Monkey Grip because I have never been able to think of why I'd want that feat instead of Power Attack. Today I use a Large Longsword in the main-hand (similar to Greatsword in statistics) and a shortsword, or a Large Greatsword for Two-handed combat. But it would be cool to also have something larger in the offhand. We are also running some house rules, basically converting D&D to the old Runequest system (AC turns to absorbtion. Introduces both critical and serious hits, with quite high chance to hit, but instead you have to deal massive amount of damage to go through high absorbtion). Based on this system a -2 or -4 would just reduce my 95% hit chance with 10-20%, which is still quite fine if I can increase the maximum damage I can do. Yeah, that's what confuses me. I'd imagine you'd want to do maximum damage. I don't think you'd do more damage with the TWF than with the Large Greatsword. I also don't think you do more damage with Monkey Grip and a Large Greatsword, compared to a regular Greatsword and Power Attack. Large Greatsword: 2d6 --> 3d6. Add 1.5x Str damage. Wielding it with Monkey grip gives a -2 penalty to hit. Average damage gain 3.5. Regular Greatsword: 2d6. Add 1.5x Str damage. Wielding it with Power Attack adds 2x2=4 damage, at the same -2 penalty as Monkey Grip. The regular Greatsword with Power Attack gives a 0.5 better average damage per hit than the Large Greatsword with Monkey grip. In addition, you can shift the hitbonus/damagebonus of Power Attack as much as you want, so you don't need Monkey Grip for some kind of damage stacking either. Basically you spent a feat to gain 0.5 less average damage. Can someone *please* explain to me why on earth you'd want to take Monkey Grip?
The_Shaman 05-31-07, 07:04 PM	Er, on the no dancing barbarians... Why does there need to be a difference between dervish dance and whirling frenzy? Just because it's called a dance needn't mean your barbarian will be doing the moves of classical Russian Ballet. Anyway, what else... Well, I think anything that gives you feats is also nice. There are a lot of abilities that could prove useful to a TWF barbarian. One idea is to start seriously tripping - I'm thinking of the Wolf Lodge Berserker from UEast, +4 to trip iirc AND it allows you to take I. Trip with no other prerequisites. That's +8, and chances are you will have a good str to back it up. When they're down (sweet little +4 to melee attack rolls), you can start some serious hacking with your high number of attacks.
Kalarus 05-31-07, 07:06 PM	Er, on the no dancing barbarians... Why does there need to be a difference between dervish dance and whirling frenzy? Just because it's called a dance needn't mean your barbarian will be doing the moves of classical Russian Ballet. Dude, do you have any idea how scary it would be to see a raging Barbarian wielding big weaponry perform classical Russian Ballet? I would throw down my weapons and beg for mercy.
The_Shaman 05-31-07, 07:30 PM	I've got five words for you, buddy: intimidate as a class skill. Mind you, I don't think a barbarian with a big old choppa doing hip-hop would be completely benign. Less unexpectable, maybe, but definitely not reassuring.
Kalarus 05-31-07, 07:36 PM	I have two more for you my friend: Circumstance bonus :D "Is that... big.. raging... greatswordwielding barbarian doing *RUSSIAN BALLET*???" "That guy's nuts! Run for your lives!" Obvious displays of insanity generally do not inspire confidence in your talents for pacifism :P
The_Shaman 05-31-07, 07:48 PM	"Obvious displays of insanity generally do not inspire confidence in your talents for pacifism" Unlikely indeed, but I'd say most of the audience would have gotten the message by the barbarian rage. I would say that the ballet performance would either a) allow it to work vs those immune to fear or b) have a stunning effect. Would you believe it to begin with?
Kalarus 05-31-07, 08:20 PM	I'd go for the stunning effect. Immunity to fear is immunity to fear, it doesn't need exceptions. Of course one could just decide that retreat is the better part of valor from time to time... Belief is a problem... the Russian Ballet Dancing would either have to be a spell-like ability of some kind, possibly some illusion-variant to require a will save... or have the Barbarian roll a bluff check. :dancin: :rofl:
Myrhdraak 06-01-07, 05:58 PM	He mentioned TWF "with Large weapons". I didn't bother to reread Monkey Grip because I have never been able to think of why I'd want that feat instead of Power Attack. Yeah, that's what confuses me. I'd imagine you'd want to do maximum damage. I don't think you'd do more damage with the TWF than with the Large Greatsword. I also don't think you do more damage with Monkey Grip and a Large Greatsword, compared to a regular Greatsword and Power Attack. Large Greatsword: 2d6 --> 3d6. Add 1.5x Str damage. Wielding it with Monkey grip gives a -2 penalty to hit. Average damage gain 3.5. Regular Greatsword: 2d6. Add 1.5x Str damage. Wielding it with Power Attack adds 2x2=4 damage, at the same -2 penalty as Monkey Grip. The regular Greatsword with Power Attack gives a 0.5 better average damage per hit than the Large Greatsword with Monkey grip. In addition, you can shift the hitbonus/damagebonus of Power Attack as much as you want, so you don't need Monkey Grip for some kind of damage stacking either. Basically you spent a feat to gain 0.5 less average damage. Can someone *please* explain to me why on earth you'd want to take Monkey Grip? Also due to house rules. We are using the old 10 segment per round system were different weapons have different base speeds. A large Greatsword do massive amount of damage, but it is not very fast. The combination Greatsword+Shortsword deals more damage for opponents with less than 10-12 in Absorbtion (in the case of my Barbarian and strength dmg bonus), because it is faster and I get more attacks per round. The reason for I having chosen monkey grip is that the damage increases from 2d6 to 3d6 with a minus of -2. Average wise it is only 7 versus 10,5 which hardly makes it worth it compared to Power Attack. However, the maximum damage I can deal is 18 versus 12. Which is 6 points, and those 6 points, do matter if I am facing a monster with 12 natural absorbtion (considering the house rules we use, as I mentioned above). Another reason is of course that I can get this benefit at very low levels, which I do not get with Power Attack in low levels as it is limited to my base attack bonus.
Kalarus 06-01-07, 06:30 PM	Also due to house rules. We are using the old 10 segment per round system were different weapons have different base speeds. A large Greatsword do massive amount of damage, but it is not very fast. The combination Greatsword+Shortsword deals more damage for opponents with less than 10-12 in Absorbtion (in the case of my Barbarian and strength dmg bonus), because it is faster and I get more attacks per round. The reason for I having chosen monkey grip is that the damage increases from 2d6 to 3d6 with a minus of -2. Average wise it is only 7 versus 10,5 which hardly makes it worth it compared to Power Attack. However, the maximum damage I can deal is 18 versus 12. Which is 6 points, and those 6 points, do matter if I am facing a monster with 12 natural absorbtion (considering the house rules we use, as I mentioned above). Another reason is of course that I can get this benefit at very low levels, which I do not get with Power Attack in low levels as it is limited to my base attack bonus. Ok, with houserules like that it's starting to make some more sense. By the way, the maximum damage you can deal is 18 vs 14, or when using it twohanded, 18 vs 16. You forgot to factor in power attack bonus to make the hit penalty equal ;)