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| DeathBecomesUs04-29-07, 11:46 AM | I like these Prestige classes in BoVD alot. But I have not really had the chance to use them very much (play in a "good" campaign). These seem perfect for the Big Bad Guy. I would like to hear your experiences with some of these classes. Do you use them as NPC (probably big bad guy) or maybe PC? Just would like to hear how others use these. Thanks |
| calprinicus04-29-07, 01:46 PM | well I have thrown a game where I used them as the horsemen of the appocolypse (can't spell). I put them on nightmare mounts and had them destroy citys. This was an epic campign where it was the final boss, and there was all four at the same time. however if your not that high level you could easily just have them in different town or such. you may also wont to throw in a seven headed hydra and a woman who can charm people, this being the who're of babylon. that is also in the story of revalations, as well as i beleive seven seals. the horsemen I used were. some back history: each rider had different attributes. horse horse represents rider power order white pestilence carries a bow conquest 1 red slaughter carries a sword war 2 black desolation carries scales famine and plaque 3 pale death carries a scythe death 4 white was a vermin lord red was a warrior of darkness or the such black was a cancer mage pale was a Pale Master from libris mortis I hope this helps, when we played it it was an epic battle, the cancer mage may be a long fight it was the last one killed since if it's abilities. it took a long chase and incubated 3 of our players. |
| Armoracia Rusticana04-29-07, 05:27 PM | Had Tri-Kreen Soul Eater once. Insanely powerful. Could have been even more powerful if I had those weapons from Magic Compendium that allow to bestow negative levels with weapons, not with natural attacks. |
| DeathBecomesUs04-30-07, 08:56 PM | Anyone ever play (as PC) a Demonologist? That is probably my fav from this book |
| Mister_Sinister05-01-07, 05:43 PM | Overall, the BoVD classes were labelled 'not too good for PCs' not just thematically, but mechanically also. As written, the classes are terribly terrible, or just utterly silly. Let's examine: Cancer Mage: Playable. Requires a rogue/fighter base to be truly effective. You get more sneak attack, decent skill points (less that a rogue, but then again, so's everyone), a companion (a pet cancer... ewww), some OK SLAs (but nothing to write home about), the ability to make himself some tatterdemalion (which is basically a strictly worse mithral chain shirt, and if you're waiting THIS long to get something, your campaign is CHRONICALLY underfunded), Con damage a bunch of times per day (at 6th level), and turning into a disease as his/her capstone. In numerics, you basically have a rogue BAB, and rogue/fighter saves. Overall, not brilliant and synergistically lacking. The abilities (or at least most of them) are 'just there'. 5/10 Demonologist: So, let me get this straight. I have to be a caster to qualify, and then end up taking a PrC which kicks me back to FIRST LEVEL SPELLS?! And it never goes beyond 4th level, ever? And I could have gotten all the spells he gives me without PrCing? And I gain basically nothing in base numberics (BAB, saves and HP) at all over a normal wizard or sorc? Tell me where to puke, this thing isn't even a 1 out of 10. A -1, maybe. Diabolist: This class wants you be a sorcerer, gives you nothing that you wouldn't get otherwise, and also requires you to be perpetually infected with a disease that damages both Wis AND Cha? All in exchange for a couple of damage dice? Please tell me where the door is, this is just shocking. 1/10, and that's being generous. Disciple of Asmodeus: This class is kinda hard to qualify for. The best choice would be a cleric with the Trickery domain, which is kinda an odd choice. Furthermore, this PrC only gives 6/10 casting, which REALLY neeeds to be worth it in other respects to be considered. You end up being WORSE off that a cleric in terms of saves and hit points, and only just break even BAB-wise. Not looking good? 1/day charm and command are laughable at that kind of level. The learn secret trick is nice, but nothing to write home about. The only things that seem worthwhile are the summoning effects and dread might. Horribly toploaded, requiring severe self-gimping in mid-levels with little payoff. Not interested. 2/10 Disciple of Baalzebul: This may actually be something decent. Rogues (or in fact, many skill monkeys) easily qualify, with only one relatively useless feat. A good skill list with decent skill points, a good Will save over on the rogue on base numerics (and a serious BAB error in the chart, which, as written, actually makes this BETTER than a rogue BAB-wise) and a sneak attack progression. Liking this so far. Using Int for Bluff is good for rogues, especially in addition to Charisma. Suggestion as a pseudo-supernatural (save-wise) 1/day is very solid, as are the various summoning tricks. The capstone is nice, although Charisma isn't THAT brilliant for a rogue. Overall, this is at least considerable. 6/10 Disciple of Dispater: Three words: fighter fixing class. There is little point for anyone else to take it, but this kicks the fighter's ass no problem. But then again, what doesn't? Together with Improved Crit and any 18-20 weapon, you crit on 9s. Overall, not bad, not good, and not really worth my time, or anyone else's, for that matter. 2/10 Disciple of Mammon: What's with these table errors?! Similar stuff to the Disciple of Baalzebul for numerics, again, basically set down for rogues and other non-casting skill monkeys. No sneak attack progression, which is sad. Skills are significantly below a rogue. Martial weapon proficiency, although with these classes, they're a dime a dozen. Some nice bonus to 'lie, cheat and steal' skills, a few SLAs, some summonings, and maybe only a few things to even recommend it. Not utter trash, but close to it. 2/10 Disciple of Mephistopheles: Again, a fighter fixing class. Again, not worth it. Again, a waste of time. DIspater and Mephistopheles clearly want fighters to join their cause, by advertising 'Work for us and the chunks you'll blow will be SMALLER!'. Seriously, not funny guys. 2/10 Lifedrinker: I have to be a vampire AND a caster? And I get no caster levels? Next! 1/10 Mortal Hunter: A very nice class if you're an outsider ranger. The secondary spell list blows, but the rest of the class is actually quite takeable. Being able to polymorph into any non-outsider is kinda scary to contemplate, rules-wise, but otherwise, very solid. Nice numerics in comparison to the ranger, too. Something else worth looking into. 6/10 Soul Eater: Pretty good. Again, impressive, but really designed for monsters rather than PCs in mind. If you can get into it, awesome. 6/10 Thrall of Demogorgon: I call it 'Thrall of Random Class Abilities'. 4/10 casting means you won't even consider it as a caster, so this is basically limited to rogues. After fighters, rogues seem to be high on recruitment lists here. Trying to balance out inherent mechanical crappiness, maybe? Good BAB and Fort save, both nice for rogues, but no sneak attack (boo!). Some bonus feats, which is nice. Natural armour bumps are nice. Dual actions is probably the best thing in this whole PrC. Limited wish as an SLA 3/day, even with the costs being paid, is simply awesome. Death touch is also good. Overall, this class has real ups and downs, but is worth taking. 7/10 Thrall of Graz'zt: A sorc with sneak attack. 6/10 casting kinda bites, though. However, you get better skills AND hit points. Not bad, not good. 5/10 Thrall of Juiblex: No wonder this guy's an Abyssal joke. This class is best gone into via monk. If we're working from that metric, your BAB and hit dice improves, saves stay the same. Your skill list shrinks slightly, but not a ton. Some nice abilities, such as corrosive touch and sickening slime, both good for monks, and polymorph self and no discernible anatomy later are both nice. Truth be told, though, since it doesn't stack with monk for anything, it's still not good. Simple as that. 3/10 Thrall of Orcus: I read as far as Lichloved. Seriously, any PC who wants to take this feat worries me. Again, you have to be a caster, but the class has a 4/10 progression. I'm looking away before the eye bleach becomes necessary. 1/10 Ur-Priest: Many people have made builds with it. It's very good to broken, depending on how good you are at mechanics. Easily the best class in the book. At least 8/10, likely higher. Vermin Lord: A druid PrC, but is hard to qualify for as a druid. Rangers would have an easier time, if only it weren't for that spell requirement. Same-ish skills, worse BAB and saves than a druid. Not looking good, guys. Class abilities can be ignored until 10th level, when this class breaks the game with hiveminds. 1/10, for lack of creativity and sheet stupidity both. Warrior of Darkness: Again, I have to be a caster with a high BAB to start and no spell progression. Next! 1/10 Overall, very unimpressive. I was very disappointed when they didn't rework (and, you know, make good) these classes for the Fiendish Codex series. Sad. Very sad. |
| DeathBecomesUs05-01-07, 07:05 PM | Wow..Thanks for the detailed analysis. You have obviously looked at this more closely than I. Yes I see your point about many problems. Clearly better designed for NPC. Anyone have good stories about experiences with these Classes? Thanks |
| Mister_Sinister05-01-07, 07:13 PM | Lol, no problem. This is what usually happens when I have theoretical essays due. Truth be told, this was pretty cursory. I have used some of these classes as BBEGs, including a rogue/thrall to Demogorgon. Overall, not exactly shocking, but expect your party to kinda plow through them. In some cases, REALLY plough through them. In my guy's case, he made one hell of a dent, but dual actions can only carry you so far, sadly. :( |
| calprinicus05-01-07, 08:02 PM | hey since where on the topic of vile darkness I was wondering if you could tell me if there is a limit to the vermin lords hivemind ability at level 10. I read through it and it seams that you could be as powerful as you want with this spell as long as you have enough vermin. |
| Mister_Sinister05-02-07, 01:06 AM | You're 100% right calprinicus, it is indeed worded that way. Hence why I said that the vermin lord's abilities can be ignored until 10th level, at which point the game just breaks. :D |
| calprinicus05-02-07, 01:29 AM | huh, wierd I would think WoTC wouldn't just make a God as a PrC. |
| Nifft05-02-07, 01:34 AM | I've re-done (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=77916) most of them. Plus added some new ones. ;) Cheers, -- N |
| Mister_Sinister05-02-07, 01:49 AM | calprinicus, when they printed the Planar Shepherd, I ceased believing that printing gods was out. But then again, I kinda lost faith after druid... |
| Andyr05-02-07, 02:19 PM | Given the 3/4-BAB-plus-1 progression occurs on several PrCs in that book, do we know for sure it is an error and not meant to be that way? I know that it's not a standard rate, but it does occur in several places. |
| eggplantm05-02-07, 06:08 PM | Lol, no problem. This is what usually happens when I have theoretical essays due. Truth be told, this was pretty cursory. I have used some of these classes as BBEGs, including a rogue/thrall to Demogorgon. Overall, not exactly shocking, but expect your party to kinda plow through them. In some cases, REALLY plough through them. In my guy's case, he made one hell of a dent, but dual actions can only carry you so far, sadly. :( You did some great reviews for those prestige classes. I remember reading those and agreeing with you on most of them. Especially the diabolist, why the hell would a caster work so hard to get into a class and then start his spellcasting over? I really enjoyed your reviews, You should do PRC reviews more often. If you have done any, please PM me here and let me know where if you don't mind. Great review! |
| Mister_Sinister05-02-07, 06:57 PM | to Andyr: I am willing to think that this is a c/p error, but at the same time, it occurs often enough to really make me think twice. Regardless, such a BAB progression cannot exist according to the rules, so I assume it was meant to be 3/4 BAB and read it as such. Knowing how editorially challenged WoTC are, it wouldn't surprise me in the least. to eggplantm: Actually, this is the first time I actually wrote reviews of anything, truth be told! I'm glad you like my style; maybe I'll even write some more! Out of curiosity, what DIDN'T you agree with? |
| MagusBlack05-03-07, 10:47 AM | That’s a pretty inaccurate report Captain, I think the Admiral might disagree with you on that, sir.:emp: Cancer Mage: Playable. Requires a rogue/fighter base to be truly effective. You get more sneak attack, decent skill points (less that a rogue, but then again, so's everyone), a companion (a pet cancer... ewww), some OK SLAs (but nothing to write home about), the ability to make himself some tatterdemalion (which is basically a strictly worse mithral chain shirt, and if you're waiting THIS long to get something, your campaign is CHRONICALLY underfunded), Con damage a bunch of times per day (at 6th level), and turning into a disease as his/her capstone. In numerics, you basically have a rogue BAB, and rogue/fighter saves. Overall, not brilliant and synergistically lacking. The abilities (or at least most of them) are 'just there'. 5/10. Agreed on the on the fact that fighter/rouges can take it the easiest. +They gain immunity to all diseases (though they still are ugly), but are now carriers of them (they are also injured by 'cure disease' spells/effects). +Can cast contagion once a day and poison far more often. +They can summon help like a vampire can. +Gain a minor scrying ability by infected someone with a 'smart' virus. +Agreed, they do inflict high Constitution damage at 6th level. +At 7th level gain the an effective padded armor with the defense of full plate. +using the above 'smart' virus he can dominate person. +At the capstone ability, he can infect someone/thing and slowly kill them while also occasionally dominating them (gaining both their skills/feats/abilities and his own). And on top of that he's partially immortal. Demonologist: So, let me get this straight. I have to be a caster to qualify, and then end up taking a PrC which kicks me back to FIRST LEVEL SPELLS?! And it never goes beyond 4th level, ever? And I could have gotten all the spells he gives me without PrCing? And I gain basically nothing in base numberics (BAB, saves and HP) at all over a normal wizard or sorc? Tell me where to puke, this thing isn't even a 1 out of 10. A -1, maybe. These guys are specialists at summoning demons, really they are, and that is their purpose. +They can ‘charm’ ‘ hold’ and ‘dominate’ demons and they don’t get any Spell Resistance. +Energy Resistance: Fire, Cold, Acid, and Electricity. Immunity to poison. +Telepathy (same as a demon) +And while small in spell selection they gain some spells that only they can get; and as far as summoning demons go- can cast Summon Monster VIII (chaotic evil ‘creatures’ only) at level 9 by using a 4th level spell. And by that level can cast Summon Monster V with a 1st level spell, Top that as efficient! Diabolist: This class wants you be a sorcerer, gives you nothing that you wouldn't get otherwise, and also requires you to be perpetually infected with a disease that damages both Wis AND Cha? All in exchange for a couple of damage dice? Please tell me where the door is, this is just shocking. 1/10, and that's being generous. For starters nothing in it says that you have to a sorcerer, two a sorcerer doesn’t get anything at all after level 1. You have to know how to cast ‘Shriveling’, you do not actually have to cast it. +Diabolism adds the [evil] descriptor to any spell its placed on and does 1d6 unholy damage against “good” targets…even if the spell doesn’t do damage! Which improves both in # per day and eventually addition damage. +At the high end of the class, the Diabolist can turn ‘unholy’ damage into ‘Vile’ damage, which is far more deadlier. Disciple of Asmodeus: This class is kinda hard to qualify for. The best choice would be a cleric with the Trickery domain, which is kinda an odd choice. Furthermore, this PrC only gives 6/10 casting, which REALLY neeeds to be worth it in other respects to be considered. You end up being WORSE off that a cleric in terms of saves and hit points, and only just break even BAB-wise. Not looking good? 1/day charm and command are laughable at that kind of level. The learn secret trick is nice, but nothing to write home about. The only things that seem worthwhile are the summoning effects and dread might. Horribly toploaded, requiring severe self-gimping in mid-levels with little payoff. Not interested. 2/10 With a cost of 3 feats and 3 skills, none in which have higher than 5 ranks, this is very easy to get into by comparison. And any spellcasting class that isn’t full spell progression is probably “Balanced” by default. Where the blazes do clerics come in?!:confused: +Yes ‘charm’ ‘command’ and ‘Greater command’ are all very low but if your not of a spellcasting class then that’s just another trick to pull out of your hat…or shoes (up to Caster level: 6 in that case) . +Learn Secret is good is you want to get the real low-down on someone without relying on spells. +Once a day when in the company of evil creatures with fewer hit dice, you can make them all save against a ‘mass suggestion’ spell that last 24 hours and in which none can attack or disobey you. +Being able to summon hellcats isn’t nothing to sneeze at, they are fierce enemies, and eventually you can summon a pack of them (up to four). +Likewise making a deal with devil (and NOT getting screwed over in the process) sounds a like good deal to me. +A permanent, stackable bonus to all Saves; your AC and your Attacks should not taken lightly. Disciple of Baalzebul: This may actually be something decent. Rogues (or in fact, many skill monkeys) easily qualify, with only one relatively useless feat. A good skill list with decent skill points, a good Will save over on the rogue on base numerics (and a serious BAB error in the chart, which, as written, actually makes this BETTER than a rogue BAB-wise) and a sneak attack progression. Liking this so far. Using Int for Bluff is good for rogues, especially in addition to Charisma. Suggestion as a pseudo-supernatural (save-wise) 1/day is very solid, as are the various summoning tricks. The capstone is nice, although Charisma isn't THAT brilliant for a rogue. Overall, this is at least considerable. 6/10 I agree on what is said on this class (with the exception of the Charisma statement), though I thing the BAB thing was a typo? Disciple of Dispater: Three words: fighter fixing class. There is little point for anyone else to take it, but this kicks the fighter's ass no problem. But then again, what doesn't? Together with Improved Crit and any 18-20 weapon, you crit on 9s. Overall, not bad, not good, and not really worth my time, or anyone else's, for that matter. 2/10 A Disciple of Dispater gets BAB=Level and the Best Saves too (Good: Fort; Ref; and Will) this alone is powerful in its own right, but with fair skill points/selection too its incredible. This is probably one of the most powerful melee prestige classes out there (non-epic wise). +Trapfinding at the first level, though it only effects traps made mostly of metal, plus a bonus to Disarming traps of the same type. Dwarves in this class are unstoppable! +Iron Hews and its latter “Greater” version adds a bit of damage to your melee skills (and Two-weapon fighters get one ‘hell‘ of a step-up). A number of times equal to you Constitution mod…and the Greater version is considered a sperate ability to its more or less (Constitution mod x2/per day) +Iron Power only works on iron or steel (I suppose Hellsteel works too). And it really depends on where your DM is silly and doesn’t let separate bonus to critical threat ranges stack or not. If he lets them stack, then you are cutting things down quick! +What can make another fighter cry more than rusting his weapon with your bare hands :D +And what could be better than having a smoking hot lady with a with sword who doesn’t mind getting her hands bloody…well having a 4 of them with you of course! They’re a blast a parties I tell you!:D +Stoneskin and Ironboy are used a lot by spell casters and with a long duration a fighter gets one heavy defense. All in all you lose nothing and get everything! Disciple of Mammon: What's with these table errors?! Similar stuff to the Disciple of Baalzebul for numerics, again, basically set down for rogues and other non-casting skill monkeys. No sneak attack progression, which is sad. Skills are significantly below a rogue. Martial weapon proficiency, although with these classes, they're a dime a dozen. Some nice bonus to 'lie, cheat and steal' skills, a few SLAs, some summonings, and maybe only a few things to even recommend it. Not utter trash, but close to it.2/10 This class in indeed for rouges of a different color. While the previous ones are good at beating the Social system; these guys destroy the economy! I wont go too much in this class, but needless to say Casinos hate them, merchants despise them; and their ‘friends’ are more afraid of enemy spellcasters than your average group. In short they don’t make many friends, but they can buy em and everyone else out! Agreed on the BAB error. Disciple of Mephistopheles: Again, a fighter fixing class. Again, not worth it. Again, a waste of time. DIspater and Mephistopheles clearly want fighters to join their cause, by advertising 'Work for us and the chunks you'll blow will be SMALLER!'. Seriously, not funny guys. 2/10 Again wrong. Another of the powerhouses (BAB=level; all Good Saves; decent skill points and selection) this one makes you a living artillery piece, that it does. +At the first level you can make a touch attack that deals 1d6 fire damage (hells-bells! If your fighter specializes in unarmed combat or grappling you effetely have a permanent ‘fiery’ enchantment on your hands…literally). +At the same level you gain +1 to caster level for any fire spells you can cast, or will cast. +fire resistance +3rd level is incredible! An unlimited ranged touch attack that deals 4d6 points of damage (nonelemental) with a range of 30 ft. Drop some specialization in that and you go far! +Up to 10/per day flare. Caster level 15. Dazzles both opponents and kids at parties! +Summoning some serious bodyguards here (the Hamatula, ouch!) +Gain the ability to cast Fire Shield, Hellfire and Hellfire Storm multiple times a day is sweet (I think they made some modification in that new Devil book though?) +Capstone ability to temporary turn into a fire elemental of your size. Spellcasters fear your combat prowess, to be sure! Lifedrinker: I have to be a vampire AND a caster? And I get no caster levels? Next! 1/10 Really you don’t need to be a spellcaster, but they get the most benefit. I personally have a thing against vampires, but to honest, if you’re a vampire then this class will make you ‘s-scary’. Read it up and you’ll know why…and people have problems with Divine metamagic.:rolleyes: Mortal Hunter: A very nice class if you're an outsider ranger. The secondary spell list blows, but the rest of the class is actually quite takeable. Being able to polymorph into any non-outsider is kinda scary to contemplate, rules-wise, but otherwise, very solid. Nice numerics in comparison to the ranger, too. Something else worth looking into. 6/10 Agreed, but those spells are not on a rangers spell list so its an improvement there. Soul Eater: Pretty good. Again, impressive, but really designed for monsters rather than PCs in mind. If you can get into it, awesome. 6/10 Another agreement, this class can scare an adventurer into early retirement. ==== I hate demons too much to give them any credit, but they’re followers do get some impressive skills nonetheless. So Ill move on. ==== Ur-Priest: Many people have made builds with it. It's very good to broken, depending on how good you are at mechanics. Easily the best class in the book. At least 8/10, likely higher. They’ve done some modifications to this class in Complete Divine I think, but yes its one of the most powerful spellcasting classes around. Vermin Lord: A druid PrC, but is hard to qualify for as a druid. Rangers would have an easier time, if only it weren't for that spell requirement. Same-ish skills, worse BAB and saves than a druid. Not looking good, guys. Class abilities can be ignored until 10th level, when this class breaks the game with hiveminds. 1/10, for lack of creativity and sheet stupidity both. Yes its is very strange alright, including that it can have a small army of familiars. Natural armor before epics and a deadly breath weapon to boot. The rest of the abilities require you to have the book on hand in order to understand their effect. Warrior of Darkness: Again, I have to be a caster with a high BAB to start and no spell progression. Next! 1/10 I find you lack of foresight, disturbing young padawan. Spellcraft, as it should be said by now, is not a ‘spellcaster-only’ skill--as such, martial classes can still take ranks in them…it just isn’t a class skill most of the time. And with the change from Alchemy to Craft (Alchemy) you spend fewer skill points to take this class. I mean you need, as far as skills go, only the following: Alchemy (or now Craft [Alchemy]) 3 ranks; Knowledge (Arcana) 3 ranks, the ability to speak Infernal and Abyssal. And ONE rank of Spellcraft, by level 5 that’s not too tall an order. Plus one feat that you would of taken anyways. +For a warriror you have BAB progression and good Fort and Will saves +Fair amount o skill points (so even if you did burn all your skill points, you can recover fast enough) +Temporary (up to 10 hours) make a non-magical weapon magical, or turn one that already is and give it a additional +1 ability. +Black Magic Oils/Elixirs provide some fairly powerful abilities (including access to the Fighters feat list, that I assume stacks with levels in fighter). +Damage Reduction +Spell Resistance All in all an excellent choice if you don’t mind being evil (like the ‘good guys‘ get anything good that isn’t cheesy)., and planning ahead a bit to make the most of your new-found powers. Though its more for martial classes, any wizard that doesn’t want to rely only on magic can still take this class at 10th level and walk away with some serious martial prowess in case magic is no longer an option. |
| Khael05-03-07, 05:02 PM | These guys are specialists at summoning demons, really they are, and that is their purpose. +They can ‘charm’ ‘ hold’ and ‘dominate’ demons and they don’t get any Spell Resistance. +Energy Resistance: Fire, Cold, Acid, and Electricity. Immunity to poison. +Telepathy (same as a demon) +And while small in spell selection they gain some spells that only they can get; and as far as summoning demons go- can cast Summon Monster VIII (chaotic evil ‘creatures’ only) at level 9 by using a 4th level spell. And by that level can cast Summon Monster V with a 1st level spell, Top that as efficient! But you're still sub-par to a normal wizard/sorcerer. At level 10 in the class you can cast summon monster IV, amped to 8. Equilivent wizard/sorcer is level 15-(16 if sorcerer) and gets the same. Or could just blow you apart. Also when your spell list is to a player in some parts unsuable (demon-subtype components). As for efficiency, how about the fact utlimately you're still wide open becasue you missed out on all the powerful defense/don't have the CLs to get good durations. You have mage armour and the like. They have fireball and worse, not to mention can metamagic, meaning you traded in high end spells for several more spellslots to summon creatures that are useful, but not brilliant. Worse of all? They miss out on the higher ways to summon the most powerful monsters. No gate, no greater planar binding. And this guy's only use is to summon the biggest baddest demons to enslave? With a cost of 3 feats and 3 skills, none in which have higher than 5 ranks, this is very easy to get into by comparison. And any spellcasting class that isn’t full spell progression is probably “Balanced” by default. Where the blazes do clerics come in?!:confused: +Yes ‘charm’ ‘command’ and ‘Greater command’ are all very low but if your not of a spellcasting class then that’s just another trick to pull out of your hat…or shoes (up to Caster level: 6 in that case) . +Learn Secret is good is you want to get the real low-down on someone without relying on spells. +Once a day when in the company of evil creatures with fewer hit dice, you can make them all save against a ‘mass suggestion’ spell that last 24 hours and in which none can attack or disobey you. +Being able to summon hellcats isn’t nothing to sneeze at, they are fierce enemies, and eventually you can summon a pack of them (up to four). +Likewise making a deal with devil (and NOT getting screwed over in the process) sounds a like good deal to me. +A permanent, stackable bonus to all Saves; your AC and your Attacks should not taken lightly. Clerics come in because the class is fairly useless without casting levels (6/10s is relatively low. 0/10 becasue you couldn't be bothered to pick up casting for a casting class...) and a wizard will likely not want to invest skill points in all those prereqs for what he gets. Again wrong. Another of the powerhouses (BAB=level; all Good Saves; decent skill points and selection) this one makes you a living artillery piece, that it does. +At the first level you can make a touch attack that deals 1d6 fire damage (hells-bells! If your fighter specializes in unarmed combat or grappling you effetely have a permanent ‘fiery’ enchantment on your hands…literally). +At the same level you gain +1 to caster level for any fire spells you can cast, or will cast. +fire resistance +3rd level is incredible! An unlimited ranged touch attack that deals 4d6 points of damage (nonelemental) with a range of 30 ft. Drop some specialization in that and you go far! +Up to 10/per day flare. Caster level 15. Dazzles both opponents and kids at parties! +Summoning some serious bodyguards here (the Hamatula, ouch!) +Gain the ability to cast Fire Shield, Hellfire and Hellfire Storm multiple times a day is sweet (I think they made some modification in that new Devil book though?) +Capstone ability to temporary turn into a fire elemental of your size. Spellcasters fear your combat prowess, to be sure! Unlimited range? What did you read? My BOVD says: Range 30. Not increments note, Range. Bearing in mind, a wizard can now pick up a 30 ft range attack with blast, dealing damage dice equal to whatever the highest fire spell level they have memorised, or in the case of sorcerers spll slot for that spell, plus the CL increase, as a feat... No, mine wouldn't fear that prowess. What they did is give this 'powerhouse' some fairly low-power spells, and fire powers. While they overcome fire resist, you're still a crude fire monster. Really you don’t need to be a spellcaster, but they get the most benefit. I personally have a thing against vampires, but to honest, if you’re a vampire then this class will make you ‘s-scary’. Read it up and you’ll know why…and people have problems with Divine metamagic.:rolleyes: Scary how? Because you don't have spells to use them on? 'I can go attack to get metamagic... Uh, I'm now in range to keep getting AoO'd while I try to metamagic fireball... And I'm CR 8-18 so my fireball is 5d6 and really needs that metamagic' Nice. I find you lack of foresight, disturbing young padawan. Spellcraft, as it should be said by now, is not a ‘spellcaster-only’ skill--as such, martial classes can still take ranks in them…it just isn’t a class skill most of the time. And with the change from Alchemy to Craft (Alchemy) you spend fewer skill points to take this class. I mean you need, as far as skills go, only the following: Alchemy (or now Craft [Alchemy]) 3 ranks; Knowledge (Arcana) 3 ranks, the ability to speak Infernal and Abyssal. And ONE rank of Spellcraft, by level 5 that’s not too tall an order. Plus one feat that you would of taken anyways. +For a warriror you have BAB progression and good Fort and Will saves +Fair amount o skill points (so even if you did burn all your skill points, you can recover fast enough) +Temporary (up to 10 hours) make a non-magical weapon magical, or turn one that already is and give it a additional +1 ability. +Black Magic Oils/Elixirs provide some fairly powerful abilities (including access to the Fighters feat list, that I assume stacks with levels in fighter). +Damage Reduction +Spell Resistance All in all an excellent choice if you don’t mind being evil (like the ‘good guys‘ get anything good that isn’t cheesy)., and planning ahead a bit to make the most of your new-found powers. Though its more for martial classes, any wizard that doesn’t want to rely only on magic can still take this class at 10th level and walk away with some serious martial prowess in case magic is no longer an option. Bull. It's a caster class because alchemy is a caster skill. See craft alchemy? See that bit with caster level 1? You had to go in as a caster, even as a warrior type, meaning you essentially had a dead level for a not that great class. If a wizard... You have poor DR given everything, and now you can get fighter feats? Or spell effect and +1 to stats in many cases you could cast for which those levels you invested. As for my own experiences with BOVD PrCs? I had a mortalhunter/souleater once. Fun to play, though very reliant on the soul drain in the end (rather badly optimised). If taken with a half-fiend like I did the capstone is great with the SLAs half-fiends get. Coupled with using mortal hunter powers for defense, you could do a lot of damage (Needed to hide? Grab a commoner, drain him dry, polymorph to him.) I have never held much faith in the other PrCs though, excpet fot the disciples of Mephistopheles and Dispater. Well, Dispater's actually once I saw the pyrokinesist. That is far better at making fire fiends, I believe, so if you really wanted a mortal fire-monster I'd suggest taking both disciple and pyrokinesist levels (the disciple levels would only be for hellfire so hellfire warlock would be a better substitute I think. If a bit heavy on the supplments you have to use for best effect. |
| MagusBlack05-03-07, 06:29 PM | QUOTE=Khael;12290160]But you're still sub-par to a normal wizard/sorcerer. At level 10 in the class you can cast summon monster IV, amped to 8. Equilivent wizard/sorcer is level 15-(16 if sorcerer) and gets the same. Or could just blow you apart. Also when your spell list is to a player in some parts unsuable (demon-subtype components). As for efficiency, how about the fact utlimately you're still wide open becasue you missed out on all the powerful defense/don't have the CLs to get good durations. You have mage armour and the like. They have fireball and worse, not to mention can metamagic, meaning you traded in high end spells for several more spellslots to summon creatures that are useful, but not brilliant. Worse of all? They miss out on the higher ways to summon the most powerful monsters. No gate, no greater planar binding. And this guy's only use is to summon the biggest baddest demons to enslave?.[/QUOTE] For starters I believe he's asking for NPC's not Players. Gate is limited in the regard of summoning the BBD, since they're too high up to be forced to do anything in the first place (though a Demonologist might know how). As a demonologist you make friends with strange people, when a party encounters a demonologist they tend to travel with loads of bound demons and other crazies. Your a demonologist because you want to specialize in demons, killing them; controlling them; etc. Plus as said above, you gain natural abilities that a normal spellcaster can never have...without being dispelled at inconvenient moments. Clerics come in because the class is fairly useless without casting levels (6/10s is relatively low. 0/10 becasue you couldn't be bothered to pick up casting for a casting class...) and a wizard will likely not want to invest skill points in all those prereqs for what he gets.. Clerics have to be either worshipers of Law and Evil or must worship Asmodeus himself, otherwise they loose all spellcasting abilities and the like. The Disciples and Thralls are essentially clerics of the devils/demons, so people who are already clerics gain little benefit. On the other hand a fighter could take this class: gain the power to subvert and dominate, with allies from the very Pit; and to add more power to him his patron is Asmodeus...who wants to pick a fight with him (As a Disciple your now his property, and damaged goods are unacceptable in Hell). Unlimited range? What did you read? My BOVD says: Range 30. Not increments note, Range. Bearing in mind, a wizard can now pick up a 30 ft range attack with blast, dealing damage dice equal to whatever the highest fire spell level they have memorised, or in the case of sorcerers spll slot for that spell, plus the CL increase, as a feat... No, mine wouldn't fear that prowess. What they did is give this 'powerhouse' some fairly low-power spells, and fire powers. While they overcome fire resist, you're still a crude fire monster.. Sorry that should of said "Unlimited # of ranged attacks", I typed it at 2 in the morning. You get to be a Warlock effectively, with better accuracy. Two the class isn’t made for spellcasters (its more aimed to martial classes), and you might be afraid of him if the guy saves against all your spells--then proceeds to bash your head in (or blows it off). WHY? Full Base Attack progression Monk Saves 4+Int Mod skill points with a large selection of skills Plus all the abilities gained. If the only prestige class that you considered powerful has full spell progression then you are a poor judge for non-spellcaster classes. Scary how? Because you don't have spells to use them on? 'I can go attack to get metamagic... Uh, I'm now in range to keep getting AoO'd while I try to metamagic fireball... And I'm CR 8-18 so my fireball is 5d6 and really needs that metamagic' Nice.. *Shrugs* +Adding +10d6 temporary hit points, big boost for undead. +Lesser Planar ally for 24 hours +24 hour increase to natural armor, energy and turn resistance +Stronger blood drain (1d6) +The ability to Empower and/or Maximize special abilities (including Blood drain) +When using Invigorate, the first one, you gain a bonus to strength equal to the amount of blood points spent (up to a +10 to Strength, vampires are already strong) again for 24 hours. +A blood frenzy that offers a bonus to strength that stacks with the above ability. Gains higher DR and Fast Healing 10; and can ignore all weaknesses. Without spellcasting levels, there's plenty to gain. Bull. It's a caster class because alchemy is a caster skill. See craft alchemy? See that bit with caster level 1? You had to go in as a caster, even as a warrior type, meaning you essentially had a dead level for a not that great class. If a wizard... You have poor DR given everything, and now you can get fighter feats? Or spell effect and +1 to stats in many cases you could cast for which those levels you invested.. Again your intelligence is lacking, read it again! There are no longer any class-only skills anymore. Alchemy was moved to Craft so that anyone could take ranks in it, so there is no Caster Level requirement. thus the rest of your statement is null. And a wizard might not mind losing a few spells to gain better saves and combat prowess, in case he's in an anti-magic field, he wont be completely helpless. The Warrior of Darkness; the Disciple and Thrall (except Orcus and Graz'zt) classes; The Mortal Hunter; the Soul Eater; and the Ur-priest all have one thing in common. The can be taken by anyone regardless of class, though some will be able to get into them sooner and others may gain more benefit from taking them than others, the end result is still that those prestige classes are available for anyone determined to enter them without multi-classing |
| Mister_Sinister05-03-07, 06:36 PM | MagusBlack, I would have responded had Khael not done it for me. Thanks Khael! As for what you've said, MagusBlack, there is much I find to not agree with. SLAs need to be VERY good to be worth losing caster levels, sneak attack or BAB for. The latter three are what the classes RUN off: the rest is gravy. Most of the SLAs provided by the various classes (short of the limited wish one) are simply not worth it. A full caster would have gotten them earlier anyway, and the fact they're mostly 1/day means that you have the 'oh dear, you saved' problem. Furthermore, any class designed to fix the fighter is bad. If the core of the build is poor, no number of PrCs will save it from mediocrity. Do you, by chance, come from the school of thought that believes fighters are competitive? In this case, we will not agree. Casters run off spells. Rogues run off sneak attack. Combat guys run off BAB. EVERYTHING runs off saves and hit points. These are basic, simple numerics which only very very very good abilities can overcome. If the class fails on these basic premises, well, the class isn't worth taking. I mean, look at the true necromancer: heaps of flavour, and heaps of sucktitude because it's based on a MAD and inefficient core, which gets worse over time. Therefore, no number of 'cool' abilities will help a class with terrible numbers. I could cite a large number of examples to support this case. Lastly, I suspect you're not much of a 'mechanic' when it comes to DnD. This is not meant as an insult; I am simply observing what I have seen. While I do not fault you in any way for having a playstyle different to mine, mechanics CAN BE and ARE objectively analysed and objectively quantified into 'objectively better' and 'objectively worse'. Whether you agree with this or not is your decision, but I never liked arguing against electricity or the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle either. However, all that said, I appreciate the feedback, as you have brought up a few things I had omitted. Again, Khael, thanks, you rock. Big-time. |
| Endless_Helix05-05-07, 09:02 PM | Furthermore, any class designed to fix the fighter is bad. If the core of the build is poor, no number of PrCs will save it from mediocrity. Do you, by chance, come from the school of thought that believes fighters are competitive? In this case, we will not agree. Since when was DnD competitive? Alot of the classes in BoVD have out of combat components, particularly amongst the various disciples and thralls. Still a lot of the classes are lackluster to say the least (I'm looking at you Thrall of Orcus and Diabolist...) Also, the vast majority of the classes are meant for BBEG's... not PC's. In other words, the whole point of a lot of these classes is to look scary for one or two encounters... Disciple of Asmodeus, for example, becomes far more dangerous when you only have to deal with him once a week or less. |
| Mister_Sinister05-06-07, 06:20 PM | Endless_Helix, you've restated the exact argument I was presenting: these classes aren't for PCs. As far as competitiveness is concerned, a wizard blows a fighter out of the water. As does a cleric. And a rogue. And a druid. And... heck, everything which isn't the shadowcaster. Therefore, even if the prestige class is awesome, we get the following: Fighter (awful) + some PrC (good) = Mediocre Druid (awesome) + some PrC (average) = Still awesome See the problem? |