Prestiges for specialists [Archive] - Wizards Community

Prestiges for specialists [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gandrel
02-25-07, 02:08 PM Seems to me that wotc let this big hole in terms of arcane prestige classes that focus in specialists. I think that a prestige class that focus in only one school of magic would be very interesting. So I propose we create these prestiges. Mechanicaly they would be prety obvious. A prestige for evoker would improve the ability in evocations while reducing its power in others schools of magic. The flavor thats the hard stuff. There are great prc that have great flavor and reflect some specilization like the master transmogrifist and the elemental savant.
Osedox
02-25-07, 02:30 PM In the recent book Complete Mage there is just that. With the exception that it is one class whose features change based on the choosen specialization of the wizard taking the class. I heartily reccomend the book, as it has tons of neat material.
The_Shaman
02-25-07, 02:45 PM Gandrel, I'd actually disagree with your assessment. As PrCs are usually quite specialized, it's easy to find a PrC that builds up on the power of one particular school. The only difference is, they don't weaken further one's spellcasting in other schools... generally :) Some of them do cause spellcasting level loss, however. Here are some examples off the top of my head:

- generalist: incantatrix (could also work for specialists, if you can spare YET another school), archmage
- any specialist: Red Wizard, possibly
- diviner: divine oracle, loremaster,possibly fatespinner
- abjurer: initiate of the sevenfold veil, abjurant champion, geometer, any other class with DM check bonuses (haalruan magehounds had those iirc).
- transmuter: bit of a hole here. Transmogrifist, blood mage (possibly),
- evoker: ardent savant, elemental savant, elemental PrCs (Stormcaster, Frost mage, etc)
- conjurer: alienist, hathran (for going into thaumaturge later), anything that boosts your summons
- necromancer: pale master, true necromancer
- enchanter: mindbender
- illusionist: shadowcrafter, shadowcraft mage,... (nightmare caster from CMage)

- note: the Shadow Adept is a good PrC for specialists of the schools favored by the Shadow Weave: illusion, enchantment, or necromancy.
Gandrel
02-25-07, 05:06 PM But most of these classes add new elements to create flavor and new abilitiies that not necessary derive from a focused study in some school. Mostof hem evem make of prerequiste to spceilize em some school. In fact in cant remember right now of any prestige that needs specilization in some school...
Coridan
02-25-07, 05:11 PM PrCs that have only one way to build a character into (as a specialist PrC would), are generally pretty poor PrCs. Especially if it's a one-class PrC build. A wizard that focused but not doing something unique and different should just go up to 20 in wizard.
The_Shaman
02-25-07, 05:12 PM Well, as for needing specialization, the Red Wizard does. However, I guess we differ in our approach. I consider a class that brings disproportionate benefits to practitioners of one school, or even focuses on spell/s from one school, good specialist classes. Usually, their powers are related to, if not deriving from (looking at both features and prerequisites) extensive study of one school, even if they don't require specialization. Perhaps these advantages could be magnified if you're using the specialist wizard classes from Unearthed Arcana/SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#abjurerVari ants) instead of the basic familiar+bonus feats wizard from the PHB?
Gandrel
02-25-07, 05:12 PM I think that what I realy want is that WOTC could gave more attention to specialists since is rare some prestige or feat that is dedicated to them...
Gandrel
02-25-07, 05:27 PM PrCs that have only one way to build a character into (as a specialist PrC would), are generally pretty poor PrCs. Especially if it's a one-class PrC build. A wizard that focused but not doing something unique and different should just go up to 20 in wizard.
Yeah, i think youre right althought specialization limits the versatility of a wizard, wich is its strong point,it could lead in into interesting new ways of resolving some situations, lie. I know it sounds contraditory but i would like some prestige class that would add versatility through specialization.
Banatine
02-25-07, 05:45 PM if you want specialisation at the expense of versatility, aren't the warmages and beguilers exactly that? they gain many advantages for being forced to learn specific schools of magic (but the advanced learning and eclectic learning class abilities give them some spells outside their field).
Gandrel
02-25-07, 09:43 PM if you want specialisation at the expense of versatility, aren't the warmages and beguilers exactly that? they gain many advantages for being forced to learn specific schools of magic (but the advanced learning and eclectic learning class abilities give them some spells outside their field).

The warmage and beguiler are in a field totaly diferent from the arcane spellcaster that some call gish, wich i love, but its a diferent character concept.
The_Shaman
02-25-07, 09:54 PM Well, they can be considered hybrids, but hardly gishes. Low BAB is definitely not a gish feature imo. However, they are specialized spontaneous casters and it may be a bit different from what you want.
Gandrel
02-26-07, 11:19 AM I dont know why that everbody have this fix for BAB when they come about gishs! Theres tons of others way to raise your atack you dont neeed to worry that much about your base atack. In my conception gish is a arcane warrior, somebody that fights with magic in any form, so the warmage, the duskblade, the hexblade and the beguiler fits in these category.
The_Shaman
02-26-07, 12:12 PM Technically, then the wizard and sorcerer are also gishes though. They fight with magic just as much as the beguiler or warmage do, and probably more than the Dread necromancer does (since the DN usually prefers fighting through proxies - the undead - rather than raw magical power)

I have the idea (correct or not) that a gish is a hybrid between a spellcaster and a warrior (melee combatant (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46916), it said), usually through a multiclass. I suppose some arcanist builds, say those relying on Tenser's Transformation or polymorph, could qualify, and the hexblade or duskblade probably do. I am a bit loath extending the definition to the warmage, though (I consider gish and blaster different terms) and even more so to the beguiler.
Gandrel
02-26-07, 12:36 PM Yeah, youre right the touching stone here is that a gish is a melee combatant, a frontline that could deliver a good amount of dmg. and take some punishment too.
Gandrel
02-26-07, 12:45 PM The warmage technicaly would fit this definition because of his(patetic) ability to wear armor and has a better hit dice than the wizard.
The_Shaman
02-26-07, 04:29 PM Meh... possibly, although I'd prefer to see him with a few EK/Abjurant Champion/etc levels. Of the full casters, arguably only the UA battle sorcerer is a true gish - d8, casts in light armor, medium BAB. It desperately needs something for more spells known, though :)
Draco Strang
02-26-07, 10:03 PM PrCs that have only one way to build a character into (as a specialist PrC would), are generally pretty poor PrCs. Especially if it's a one-class PrC build. A wizard that focused but not doing something unique and different should just go up to 20 in wizard.

I totally disagree. After wizard 5, there's really no reason to continue advancement in the core class, unless your DM disallows PrCs. There are tons of good arcane PrCs that run 10 levels, give you lots of good special abilities and class features, and don't give up any spell progression.

If you stay in Wizard what do you get.....familiar advancement and 3 metamagic feats? With all those options out there, I say booh to that.
Osedox
02-27-07, 12:15 PM I Gish is a character with at least 7th level spells and at least +16 BAB. So straight Warmage misses by about 6 BAB, but if you were to build a combo using Swashbuckler3/Warmage6/Spellsword1/Eldritch Knight10, that is a pretty lame build tho because you miss out on 9th level spells. Wizard (or Sorcerer)6/Fighter1/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Eldritch Knight7, gets you a CL of 18, which means ninth level spells for either class, and a BAB of +17, not too shabby.

However barring the specialized spontaneous casters, the Master Specialist is truly a great class for a specialized wizard.
Gandrel
02-27-07, 07:07 PM Master Specialist? It is from Complete Mage? I need to get my claws in this book! Now that you remember the batle sorcerer i think i could try to make something like the prestiges base classes. Hmmmm lets try this:
Master Evoker
prerequisites:know at least 6 diferent evocations, spell focus(evocation). greater spell focus(evocation),must be specialist in the evocation school
hd:d4
1 lv.- spontaneouns evocation ( spells 1-2 lv.)
2lv.-1 level in existing spellcasting class
3 lv.-resistant(+2 against evocation spell saves)
4 lv.-spontaneouns evocation ( spells 3-4 lv.)1 level in existing spellcasting class
5 lv.-hard evocation( +4 aganist dispells)
6lv.-1 level in existing spellcasting class great resist( +4 against evocation spell saves)1 level in existing spellcasting class
8 lv.-spontaneouns evocation ( spells 5-6 lv.)
9 lv.-flame of war( adds half his caster lv. in dmg on evocation spells)+1 lv. in existing spellcasting class
10lv.-evocation incarned( imune to evocation spells)
The_Shaman
02-27-07, 07:33 PM Yeah, master specialist is pretty much the only (afaik) PrC that is only for specialists.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gandrel 02-25-07, 02:08 PM	Seems to me that wotc let this big hole in terms of arcane prestige classes that focus in specialists. I think that a prestige class that focus in only one school of magic would be very interesting. So I propose we create these prestiges. Mechanicaly they would be prety obvious. A prestige for evoker would improve the ability in evocations while reducing its power in others schools of magic. The flavor thats the hard stuff. There are great prc that have great flavor and reflect some specilization like the master transmogrifist and the elemental savant.
Osedox 02-25-07, 02:30 PM	In the recent book Complete Mage there is just that. With the exception that it is one class whose features change based on the choosen specialization of the wizard taking the class. I heartily reccomend the book, as it has tons of neat material.
The_Shaman 02-25-07, 02:45 PM	Gandrel, I'd actually disagree with your assessment. As PrCs are usually quite specialized, it's easy to find a PrC that builds up on the power of one particular school. The only difference is, they don't weaken further one's spellcasting in other schools... generally :) Some of them do cause spellcasting level loss, however. Here are some examples off the top of my head: - generalist: incantatrix (could also work for specialists, if you can spare YET another school), archmage - any specialist: Red Wizard, possibly - diviner: divine oracle, loremaster,possibly fatespinner - abjurer: initiate of the sevenfold veil, abjurant champion, geometer, any other class with DM check bonuses (haalruan magehounds had those iirc). - transmuter: bit of a hole here. Transmogrifist, blood mage (possibly), - evoker: ardent savant, elemental savant, elemental PrCs (Stormcaster, Frost mage, etc) - conjurer: alienist, hathran (for going into thaumaturge later), anything that boosts your summons - necromancer: pale master, true necromancer - enchanter: mindbender - illusionist: shadowcrafter, shadowcraft mage,... (nightmare caster from CMage) - note: the Shadow Adept is a good PrC for specialists of the schools favored by the Shadow Weave: illusion, enchantment, or necromancy.
Gandrel 02-25-07, 05:06 PM	But most of these classes add new elements to create flavor and new abilitiies that not necessary derive from a focused study in some school. Mostof hem evem make of prerequiste to spceilize em some school. In fact in cant remember right now of any prestige that needs specilization in some school...
Coridan 02-25-07, 05:11 PM	PrCs that have only one way to build a character into (as a specialist PrC would), are generally pretty poor PrCs. Especially if it's a one-class PrC build. A wizard that focused but not doing something unique and different should just go up to 20 in wizard.
The_Shaman 02-25-07, 05:12 PM	Well, as for needing specialization, the Red Wizard does. However, I guess we differ in our approach. I consider a class that brings disproportionate benefits to practitioners of one school, or even focuses on spell/s from one school, good specialist classes. Usually, their powers are related to, if not deriving from (looking at both features and prerequisites) extensive study of one school, even if they don't require specialization. Perhaps these advantages could be magnified if you're using the specialist wizard classes from Unearthed Arcana/SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#abjurerVari ants) instead of the basic familiar+bonus feats wizard from the PHB?
Gandrel 02-25-07, 05:12 PM	I think that what I realy want is that WOTC could gave more attention to specialists since is rare some prestige or feat that is dedicated to them...
Gandrel 02-25-07, 05:27 PM	PrCs that have only one way to build a character into (as a specialist PrC would), are generally pretty poor PrCs. Especially if it's a one-class PrC build. A wizard that focused but not doing something unique and different should just go up to 20 in wizard. Yeah, i think youre right althought specialization limits the versatility of a wizard, wich is its strong point,it could lead in into interesting new ways of resolving some situations, lie. I know it sounds contraditory but i would like some prestige class that would add versatility through specialization.
Banatine 02-25-07, 05:45 PM	if you want specialisation at the expense of versatility, aren't the warmages and beguilers exactly that? they gain many advantages for being forced to learn specific schools of magic (but the advanced learning and eclectic learning class abilities give them some spells outside their field).
Gandrel 02-25-07, 09:43 PM	if you want specialisation at the expense of versatility, aren't the warmages and beguilers exactly that? they gain many advantages for being forced to learn specific schools of magic (but the advanced learning and eclectic learning class abilities give them some spells outside their field). The warmage and beguiler are in a field totaly diferent from the arcane spellcaster that some call gish, wich i love, but its a diferent character concept.
The_Shaman 02-25-07, 09:54 PM	Well, they can be considered hybrids, but hardly gishes. Low BAB is definitely not a gish feature imo. However, they are specialized spontaneous casters and it may be a bit different from what you want.
Gandrel 02-26-07, 11:19 AM	I dont know why that everbody have this fix for BAB when they come about gishs! Theres tons of others way to raise your atack you dont neeed to worry that much about your base atack. In my conception gish is a arcane warrior, somebody that fights with magic in any form, so the warmage, the duskblade, the hexblade and the beguiler fits in these category.
The_Shaman 02-26-07, 12:12 PM	Technically, then the wizard and sorcerer are also gishes though. They fight with magic just as much as the beguiler or warmage do, and probably more than the Dread necromancer does (since the DN usually prefers fighting through proxies - the undead - rather than raw magical power) I have the idea (correct or not) that a gish is a hybrid between a spellcaster and a warrior (melee combatant (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46916), it said), usually through a multiclass. I suppose some arcanist builds, say those relying on Tenser's Transformation or polymorph, could qualify, and the hexblade or duskblade probably do. I am a bit loath extending the definition to the warmage, though (I consider gish and blaster different terms) and even more so to the beguiler.
Gandrel 02-26-07, 12:36 PM	Yeah, youre right the touching stone here is that a gish is a melee combatant, a frontline that could deliver a good amount of dmg. and take some punishment too.
Gandrel 02-26-07, 12:45 PM	The warmage technicaly would fit this definition because of his(patetic) ability to wear armor and has a better hit dice than the wizard.
The_Shaman 02-26-07, 04:29 PM	Meh... possibly, although I'd prefer to see him with a few EK/Abjurant Champion/etc levels. Of the full casters, arguably only the UA battle sorcerer is a true gish - d8, casts in light armor, medium BAB. It desperately needs something for more spells known, though :)
Draco Strang 02-26-07, 10:03 PM	PrCs that have only one way to build a character into (as a specialist PrC would), are generally pretty poor PrCs. Especially if it's a one-class PrC build. A wizard that focused but not doing something unique and different should just go up to 20 in wizard. I totally disagree. After wizard 5, there's really no reason to continue advancement in the core class, unless your DM disallows PrCs. There are tons of good arcane PrCs that run 10 levels, give you lots of good special abilities and class features, and don't give up any spell progression. If you stay in Wizard what do you get.....familiar advancement and 3 metamagic feats? With all those options out there, I say booh to that.
Osedox 02-27-07, 12:15 PM	I Gish is a character with at least 7th level spells and at least +16 BAB. So straight Warmage misses by about 6 BAB, but if you were to build a combo using Swashbuckler3/Warmage6/Spellsword1/Eldritch Knight10, that is a pretty lame build tho because you miss out on 9th level spells. Wizard (or Sorcerer)6/Fighter1/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Eldritch Knight7, gets you a CL of 18, which means ninth level spells for either class, and a BAB of +17, not too shabby. However barring the specialized spontaneous casters, the Master Specialist is truly a great class for a specialized wizard.
Gandrel 02-27-07, 07:07 PM	Master Specialist? It is from Complete Mage? I need to get my claws in this book! Now that you remember the batle sorcerer i think i could try to make something like the prestiges base classes. Hmmmm lets try this: Master Evoker prerequisites:know at least 6 diferent evocations, spell focus(evocation). greater spell focus(evocation),must be specialist in the evocation school hd:d4 1 lv.- spontaneouns evocation ( spells 1-2 lv.) 2lv.-1 level in existing spellcasting class 3 lv.-resistant(+2 against evocation spell saves) 4 lv.-spontaneouns evocation ( spells 3-4 lv.)1 level in existing spellcasting class 5 lv.-hard evocation( +4 aganist dispells) 6lv.-1 level in existing spellcasting class great resist( +4 against evocation spell saves)1 level in existing spellcasting class 8 lv.-spontaneouns evocation ( spells 5-6 lv.) 9 lv.-flame of war( adds half his caster lv. in dmg on evocation spells)+1 lv. in existing spellcasting class 10lv.-evocation incarned( imune to evocation spells)
The_Shaman 02-27-07, 07:33 PM	Yeah, master specialist is pretty much the only (afaik) PrC that is only for specialists.