Query about Arcane Lord [Archive] - Wizards Community

Query about Arcane Lord [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DeathXI
02-28-07, 07:46 AM So I found this cool class in a Dragon magazine -- alllll the way back in 2002. It doesn't look like it needs to be updated to 3.5 -- however one of the requirements is "10th level spells" Now the only 10th level spells that I'm aware of are Epic spells, so am I right in assuming that I need to be able to cast Epic spells in order to qualify for this class?
Lode
02-28-07, 11:32 AM You would need a tenth level spell slot through Improved Spell Capacity.
Molot
02-28-07, 04:50 PM 10'th level slot is only a halfway there, since simple putting 9th level spell into 10th level slot (by metamagic or other means) does not make it 10th level spell.
Heighten Spell might work, butA heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level).it has a 9'th level limit too.

The only legal solution I know is an epic feat:
Improved Heighten Spell [Epic]
Prerequisites
Heighten Spell, Spellcraft 20 ranks.

Benefit
As Heighten Spell, but there is no limit to the level to which you can heighten the spell.

Normal
Without this feat, a spell can only be heightened to a maximum of 9th level.

Besides, there was ancient Faerunian spellcasting technique (Neather Scrolls it was?) that allowed Epic characters to cast native 10th level spells along with epic ones, but it was possible only in times not meant to play.

And remember - Epic Slots are not 10th level slots on their own.
demi d20
03-01-07, 10:51 AM 10'th level slot is only a halfway there, since simple putting 9th level spell into 10th level slot (by metamagic or other means) does not make it 10th level spell.

Incorrect. You simply need to have taken Improved Spell Capacity, and have a Primary Spellcasting score of 20 or more.
Molot
03-01-07, 12:13 PM one of the requirements is "10th level spells" So that is what the original poster desires.

Epic spells have no fixed level. However, for purposes of Concentration checks, spell resistance, and other possible situations where spell level is important, epic spells are all treated as if they were 10th-level spells.Emphasis mine.So the epic spells are not trurly 10th level, and it is debatable if PrC requirement can be treated as a "situation". For me - not, but it is up to DM to judge this for particular character.

Incorrect. You simply need to have taken Improved Spell Capacity, and have a Primary Spellcasting score of 20 or more.Improved Spell Capacity [Epic]
Prerequisite
Ability to cast spells of the normal maximum spell level in at least one spellcasting class.

Benefit
When you select this feat, you gain one spell slot per day of any level up to one level higher than the highest-level spell you can already cast in a particular class. You must still have the requisite ability score (10 + spell level) in order to cast any spell stored in this slot. If you have a high enough ability modifier to gain one or more bonus spells for this spell level, you also gain the bonus spells for this spell level. You must use the spell slot as a member of the class in which you can already cast spells of the normal maximum spell level.

Special
You can gain this feat multiple times.I've read thorough this text, and I haven't found a word about 10th level spells. There was only words about 10th level spell slots, and it's not the same thing. Here goes the prove:Spell Slots

The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level.Emphasis mine again.

Ok, if I'm missing something, then show me HOW improved spell capacity would make spell to be 10th level. As far as I'm reading, it looks like they'd be simply 0~9level spell cast using 10th level spell slot.
DeathXI
03-01-07, 04:45 PM ok, so looking back at the class again, I mistyped the first post, or rather...left something out, so here's the WHOLE requirements for the arcane lord.

Know Arcana: 25
Spellcraft: 25
Skill Focus:Spellcraft, any 5 metamagic feats
Epic Feats: Improved Spellcasting (? Never seen this feat anywhere -- I asumed they meant Improved Spell Capacity)
Spellcasting:Ability to cast 10th Level spells
Molot
03-01-07, 06:51 PM ok, so looking back at the class again, I mistyped the first post, or rather...left something out, so here's the WHOLE requirements for the arcane lord.

Know Arcana: 25
Spellcraft: 25
Skill Focus:Spellcraft, any 5 metamagic featsThese are obvious :)

Epic Feats: Improved Spellcasting (? Never seen this feat anywhere -- I asumed they meant Improved Spell Capacity)Either Epic Spellcasting or Improved Spell Capacity. If Epic Spellcasting, then "10'th level spells" cannot mean Epic Spells, as it would be repeating the same. If they meant Improved Spell Capacity, then 10th level slot is not enough, but hey, it wasn't anyway.

Spellcasting:Ability to cast 10th Level spellsIt depends on the interpretation of previous point, as wrote above.
demi d20
03-02-07, 11:08 AM If you needed Heighten Spell to increase a spell to 10th to make it "count as 10th level", don't you think that it would be included in the prerequisites?

An important fact to keep in mind, is that this class was released in Dragon AT THE SAME TIME as the epic handbook. Which means it was written at least 1-2 months before hand. The author may have only had an advance copy (printed on a laser printer or something) of the book to go by. In the intervening time, feat names & descriptions, and how "over 9th level" spell slots worked, may have been changed.
Molot
03-03-07, 09:29 AM If you needed Heighten Spell to increase a spell to 10th to make it "count as 10th level", don't you think that it would be included in the prerequisites?I know what is in the prerequisites now. The first post seems like a question how to meet prerequisites as they are. If you want to discuss how they should look like, then we have a whole different discussion. And the description of magic, epic magic and improved heighten spell says that improved heighten spell is the only way for the spell to actually be 10th level (and epic ones just counts as 10th level in certain circumstances). No need to repeat this in the prerequisites.

IAn important fact to keep in mind, is that this class was released in Dragon AT THE SAME TIME as the epic handbook. Which means it was written at least 1-2 months before hand. The author may have only had an advance copy (printed on a laser printer or something) of the book to go by. In the intervening time, feat names & descriptions, and how "over 9th level" spell slots worked, may have been changed.So we have classic "what did author meant". My thought is that he meant Epic Spellcasting and a way to get truly 10th level spells (with the improved heighten spell way, for example).
You may think something whole different. None of us will ever have a proof on that, until original author will make an update / clarification. Thus further discussion seems pointless.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DeathXI 02-28-07, 07:46 AM	So I found this cool class in a Dragon magazine -- alllll the way back in 2002. It doesn't look like it needs to be updated to 3.5 -- however one of the requirements is "10th level spells" Now the only 10th level spells that I'm aware of are Epic spells, so am I right in assuming that I need to be able to cast Epic spells in order to qualify for this class?
Lode 02-28-07, 11:32 AM	You would need a tenth level spell slot through Improved Spell Capacity.
Molot 02-28-07, 04:50 PM	10'th level slot is only a halfway there, since simple putting 9th level spell into 10th level slot (by metamagic or other means) does not make it 10th level spell. Heighten Spell might work, butA heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level).it has a 9'th level limit too. The only legal solution I know is an epic feat: Improved Heighten Spell [Epic] Prerequisites Heighten Spell, Spellcraft 20 ranks. Benefit As Heighten Spell, but there is no limit to the level to which you can heighten the spell. Normal Without this feat, a spell can only be heightened to a maximum of 9th level. Besides, there was ancient Faerunian spellcasting technique (Neather Scrolls it was?) that allowed Epic characters to cast native 10th level spells along with epic ones, but it was possible only in times not meant to play. And remember - Epic Slots are not 10th level slots on their own.
demi d20 03-01-07, 10:51 AM	10'th level slot is only a halfway there, since simple putting 9th level spell into 10th level slot (by metamagic or other means) does not make it 10th level spell. Incorrect. You simply need to have taken Improved Spell Capacity, and have a Primary Spellcasting score of 20 or more.
Molot 03-01-07, 12:13 PM	one of the requirements is "10th level spells" So that is what the original poster desires. Epic spells have no fixed level. However, for purposes of Concentration checks, spell resistance, and other possible situations where spell level is important, epic spells are all treated as if they were 10th-level spells.Emphasis mine.So the epic spells are not trurly 10th level, and it is debatable if PrC requirement can be treated as a "situation". For me - not, but it is up to DM to judge this for particular character. Incorrect. You simply need to have taken Improved Spell Capacity, and have a Primary Spellcasting score of 20 or more.Improved Spell Capacity [Epic] Prerequisite Ability to cast spells of the normal maximum spell level in at least one spellcasting class. Benefit When you select this feat, you gain one spell slot per day of any level up to one level higher than the highest-level spell you can already cast in a particular class. You must still have the requisite ability score (10 + spell level) in order to cast any spell stored in this slot. If you have a high enough ability modifier to gain one or more bonus spells for this spell level, you also gain the bonus spells for this spell level. You must use the spell slot as a member of the class in which you can already cast spells of the normal maximum spell level. Special You can gain this feat multiple times.I've read thorough this text, and I haven't found a word about 10th level spells. There was only words about 10th level spell slots, and it's not the same thing. Here goes the prove:Spell Slots The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level.Emphasis mine again. Ok, if I'm missing something, then show me HOW improved spell capacity would make spell to be 10th level. As far as I'm reading, it looks like they'd be simply 0~9level spell cast using 10th level spell slot.
DeathXI 03-01-07, 04:45 PM	ok, so looking back at the class again, I mistyped the first post, or rather...left something out, so here's the WHOLE requirements for the arcane lord. Know Arcana: 25 Spellcraft: 25 Skill Focus:Spellcraft, any 5 metamagic feats Epic Feats: Improved Spellcasting (? Never seen this feat anywhere -- I asumed they meant Improved Spell Capacity) Spellcasting:Ability to cast 10th Level spells
Molot 03-01-07, 06:51 PM	ok, so looking back at the class again, I mistyped the first post, or rather...left something out, so here's the WHOLE requirements for the arcane lord. Know Arcana: 25 Spellcraft: 25 Skill Focus:Spellcraft, any 5 metamagic featsThese are obvious :) Epic Feats: Improved Spellcasting (? Never seen this feat anywhere -- I asumed they meant Improved Spell Capacity)Either Epic Spellcasting or Improved Spell Capacity. If Epic Spellcasting, then "10'th level spells" cannot mean Epic Spells, as it would be repeating the same. If they meant Improved Spell Capacity, then 10th level slot is not enough, but hey, it wasn't anyway. Spellcasting:Ability to cast 10th Level spellsIt depends on the interpretation of previous point, as wrote above.
demi d20 03-02-07, 11:08 AM	If you needed Heighten Spell to increase a spell to 10th to make it "count as 10th level", don't you think that it would be included in the prerequisites? An important fact to keep in mind, is that this class was released in Dragon AT THE SAME TIME as the epic handbook. Which means it was written at least 1-2 months before hand. The author may have only had an advance copy (printed on a laser printer or something) of the book to go by. In the intervening time, feat names & descriptions, and how "over 9th level" spell slots worked, may have been changed.
Molot 03-03-07, 09:29 AM	If you needed Heighten Spell to increase a spell to 10th to make it "count as 10th level", don't you think that it would be included in the prerequisites?I know what is in the prerequisites now. The first post seems like a question how to meet prerequisites as they are. If you want to discuss how they should look like, then we have a whole different discussion. And the description of magic, epic magic and improved heighten spell says that improved heighten spell is the only way for the spell to actually be 10th level (and epic ones just counts as 10th level in certain circumstances). No need to repeat this in the prerequisites. IAn important fact to keep in mind, is that this class was released in Dragon AT THE SAME TIME as the epic handbook. Which means it was written at least 1-2 months before hand. The author may have only had an advance copy (printed on a laser printer or something) of the book to go by. In the intervening time, feat names & descriptions, and how "over 9th level" spell slots worked, may have been changed.So we have classic "what did author meant". My thought is that he meant Epic Spellcasting and a way to get truly 10th level spells (with the improved heighten spell way, for example). You may think something whole different. None of us will ever have a proof on that, until original author will make an update / clarification. Thus further discussion seems pointless.