Post/Author/DateTime	Post
monk2000 08-23-07, 01:30 PM	Hi =D I am kind of new in the dnd world. Me and some friend started the game,and they got some great prestiges classses for their characters. I wanted to get some too,but couldnt find interesting things for monks. Could you guys give me the monk best prestiges classes?
Puca 08-23-07, 01:40 PM	I cant help you when you ask for the "best." Which ones are the better is going to depend on what you are good at now; what you want to be good at or better at in the future; and what youre willing to give up. Tell us about your monk now, and give us ideas about what youd like him to be like in the future.
monk2000 08-23-07, 01:50 PM	I would like to get one of those class where the monk continue to upgrade his ac bonus,unarmed damage and speed =O!I think that some of the prestige classes does that! What i would want...few!Something....fun to play whit!Im in a big party,so we doesnt miss nothing. I would just like to have fun and be usefull by the same time whit my monk =D! I found a first one...drunken monk ^^;;; Looking fun but...don't know XD This would be a kind of only fighting monk =O!I want some special skills that could make elemental attack,weaken the ennemies =O! As i would already continue to upgrade my unarmed damage,i wouldnt really need to gain more damage =O! *sorry for my....english full of french faults ^^;;;* Can you guys help me to find some prestiges classes for my monk =D?
Tempest Stormwind 08-23-07, 01:59 PM	I would like to get one of those class where the monk continue to upgrade his ac bonus,unarmed damage and speed =O!I think that some of the prestige classes does that! What i would want...few!Something....fun to play whit!Im in a big party,so we doesnt miss nothing. I would just like to have fun and be usefull by the same time whit my monk =D! I found a first one...drunken monk ^^;;; Looking fun but...don't know XD This would be a kind of only fighting monk =O!I want some special skills that could make elemental attack,weaken the ennemies =O! As i would already continue to upgrade my unarmed damage,i wouldnt really need to gain more damage =O! *sorry for my....english full of french faults ^^;;;* Can you guys help me to find some prestiges classes for my monk =D? Ah, you don't want a monk if you're trying to do those. The only way to pull those off with a monk is to be a spellcaster with a few monk levels and a complicated prestige class like Enlightened Fist. And even then, it's not your monk abilities, but your spells that do these. If you want to do all of that (unarmed damage, speed, elemental attacks, weakening enemies, and so on), you want the swordsage, from the Tome of Battle. Desert Wind gets you elemental damage and speed (and even a flurry-of-blows type ability), Shadow Hand gets you weakening enemies, Diamond Mind gives you magic defense and speed, and so on. There's even an unarmed version that gets the monk's unarmed strike, plus the book has the Superior Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick feats (which upgrade your unarmed damage and give you more unarmed attacks). On top of this, they're a blast to play, and several of their maneuvers (especially those in Setting Sun) can *really* help out a party. Really, the swordsage is everything that the monk should have been and then some. No prestige class needed.
monk2000 08-23-07, 02:08 PM	Hoo!Nice =D!Ill try to find the description of this class as soon as possible!!! I found a lot of the monk prestiges classes....the name XD But no descriptions T__T!!! Shou disciple unapprochable east Sun Soul monk City of splendors tattooed monk Complete warrior disciple of the word Tome of magic jade phoenix mage tome of battle Shadow Sun ninja tome of battle argent fist faiths of eberron Fist of Dal Quor Secrets of sarlona fist of the forest Complete champion Crane Shen Dragon shen Initiate of Pistis Sophia Mantis shen Master of east wind Monkey shen Snake shen Tiger shen What are those...shen?For now,i still want to make a monk =D!If you would have to choose one of those prsetige classes for the fun and strong skills,what would it be and why? In your opinion,what could make the perfect monk.In your opinion!I want to forge what ill be thinking whit persons thought who know how to play the game! *sorry for all those mistakes...really XDDD Im terrible T__T*
bkdubs123 08-23-07, 02:11 PM	Seconding Stormwind's suggestion (to play the Swordsage). However, if you don't have access to the Tome of Battle (which it sounds like you don't or else you'd have already been playing one) you could go with Enlightened Fist like Stormwind also suggested. There is also the Fist of Zuoken prestige class which is more linked to psionics then spells. I'm trying to think of what else you might be able to do with a Monk. You could give Tattooed Monk a try I guess. The power level on that one is pretty lax, but it offers some interesting customization. Ah! Here's an idea. Multiclass between Monk and Duskblade (Player's Handbook 2 if you have it, check out the feats in there too) and then look for the prestige class Blade Dancer from the book Oriental Adventures. The book is somewhat obscure so I wouldn't be surprised if you don't have access, but the speed and elemental damage aspects really go through the roof with that PrC. I remember building a VERY cool character out of that combination.
Orenmir 08-23-07, 02:14 PM	If you want to do all of that (unarmed damage, speed, elemental attacks, weakening enemies, and so on), you want the swordsage, from the Tome of Battle. Actually, Monk can do all of that. And, you don't even need to PrC. Unarmed damage and speed are class abilities. You can add 1d6 fire damage to your unarmed attacks by taking Fiery Fist as a bonus Monk feat at level 2. You can weaken enemies with several other feats like Painful Touch, Pressure Point, and Stealing the Lifeblood (I'm sure there are others). There's a feat that drains Con with a succesfull Stunning Fist attack (I don't remember the name). As far as a PrC goes... What style of fighting does your Monk do? Purely unarmed? Stunning Fist junkie? Use a Monk weapon? Grappler? Tripper? Disarmer? And, what are your ability scores? Answering those can put you in very different directions.
monk2000 08-23-07, 02:25 PM	So,those use a combination of magic and monk attack...nice =D!! If i would have to choose... i would go total unarmed I want to be free and just run whit almost nothing but my own fists and...feats?I didnt even though that there would be such nice monk feats!!! All those choise you gave sound really good....grapplin can be so usefull when the other is at the same size than you,as they do little damage that dont really hurt,and disarm can be really helpfull for sure!!!! No,finally,i would choose purrely unarmed,stunning fist junkie,and disarmer. I didn't took my stats. We will use a ''roll 4 d6,eleminate the weak number and aditionate the 3 others''. But i wil surelly put the bigest number in wisdom! =D by the way,i want to find a prestige class because i fined out the the best monks things,are his speed,nice unarmed damage and little ac bonus,whit some nice skills to start....but a totally worthelss level 20 skill....at this stats,this skill woundlt help me and the others are useless too... I though i coud find better in a prestige class =O!
bkdubs123 08-23-07, 03:10 PM	again, definitely check out the feats in Player's Handbook 2 (if you have access) and be sure to check in Complete Warrior for more options as well. Also for Prestige Class options, Oriental Adventures is a great place to look. I still stand by Blade Dancer as a good one (although the requirements can be hard to meet). Also, though, don't forget about Swordsage (from the Book of Nine Swords). It really sounds like something you would enjoy playing. It certainly is one of the most fun classes to play.
Puca 08-23-07, 03:18 PM	So,those use a combination of magic and monk attack...nice =D!!There is a cleric/monk PrC in CD and arcane class/monk in CA. I want to be free and just run whit almost nothing but my own fists and...feats?I didnt even though that there would be such nice monk feats!!!Yeah, bunches. Id look at both CW and PHBII for good monk ones. No,finally,i would choose purrely unarmed,stunning fist junkie,and disarmer.Weapons are still good to have as back-up. Easier to enhance with magic than fists. Although there is a PrC in CW, Kenasi, that will let you enhance a chosen weapon, and that weapon can be your fists. I didn't took my stats. We will use a ''roll 4 d6,eleminate the weak number and aditionate the 3 others''. But i wil surelly put the bigest number in wisdom! =DIf you are going for the PrC that combines an arcane caster with the monk, there is a feat in CAdv, Ascetic Mage, that lets you use your Cha instead of your Wis for AC. Good synergy, if you are going that route anyway.
Tempest Stormwind 08-23-07, 03:18 PM	Shou disciple unapprochable east Sun Soul monk City of splendors tattooed monk Complete warrior disciple of the word Tome of magic jade phoenix mage tome of battle Shadow Sun ninja tome of battle argent fist faiths of eberron Fist of Dal Quor Secrets of sarlona fist of the forest Complete champion Crane Shen Dragon shen Initiate of Pistis Sophia Mantis shen Master of east wind Monkey shen Snake shen Tiger shen Shou disciple: Gives monks fighter-like abilities or fighters monklike ones, flurry with weapons or in light armor, etc. Tattooed monk: Gain tattoos, which are scaling special abilities that border on magic. Jade Phoenix Mage: Not a monk PrC, although a swordsage could qualify. It's freaking awesome - mix magic and melee like never before, specializing in figh Shadow Sun Ninja: A monk could qualify if he blew all of his feats to do it; it's really made for swordsage. It alternates between "light" and "dark" moves. Kickass class. Argent Fist: Monk+Cleric, Eberron-specific. Fist of Dal Quor: A (weak) combination of psionics and martial arts. Fist of the Forest: Monk/Druid, of a sort. X Shen: Martial arts based on the X animal. I believe high-end ones can even shapeshift into it. The others I'm not familiar with. Orenmir: I've said it before, but the monk is like a big pile of pieces drawn from K'nex, Meccano, and a barrel-o-monkeys. Nothing they have works well together, and the class ends up being weak, shoehorned into one role, and forced to jump through hoops for what others get for free. Compare this to the versatile swordsage, which can build far more types of characters, each of which is effective in the game. It's similar to picking up a lot of Lego -- everything works well together. Meanwhile, look at what he wants. EVERYTHING he mentioned you get with the swordsage, right out of the box, and it also happens to be quite fun. Occam's Razor. Monk with lots of pimping and/or prestige classes, or swordsage without any specific locked-in choices. He's going to need to pick up another book anyway (as there aren't any monk-advancing PrCs in the core books); it's not a factor of cost.
monk2000 08-23-07, 03:24 PM	Thanks for the explenation of those classes =D! Its seem that feats could really change my monk,and not only the prestige class...I was woring that it would get to level 20 and only get this...kind of bad goodly form skill,but whit feats =O i could try to hide this weakness in another way. Should i choose some feats before choose the prestige class? I checked,but couldnt find monks feats like this on the net,do you guys have a web site where i could find some?And one where i could check the swordsage stats,skills upgrades? Finally,i got one for the monks feats =D! http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/3.5_L5R_Kiho They sound real nice!!!am i wrong?
Orenmir 08-23-07, 03:25 PM	Orenmir: I've said it before, but the monk is like a big pile of pieces drawn from K'nex, Meccano, and a barrel-o-monkeys. Nothing they have works well together, and the class ends up being weak, shoehorned into one role, and forced to jump through hoops for what others get for free. Compare this to the versatile swordsage, which can build far more types of characters, each of which is effective in the game. It's similar to picking up a lot of Lego -- everything works well together. Meanwhile, look at what he wants. EVERYTHING he mentioned you get with the swordsage, right out of the box, and it also happens to be quite fun. Occam's Razor. Monk with lots of pimping and/or prestige classes, or swordsage without any specific locked-in choices. No worries... My intent was not to steer him away from other classes. Just wanted to show him all his options. I agree, Monk needs a little help.
bkdubs123 08-23-07, 04:19 PM	As far as finding these options online, there really isn't much of a chance for that. It's rather illegal to post up word for word content of WotC books (in most cases), so you won't normally find class descriptions and/or other things of that nature online (although with some thorough searching you might be able to turn something up). There is one other way to gain access to these books online, but that way is surely illegal and would certainly take some time (PDF formats of many books). I fear I ought not say anymore, as I may be pushing the boundaries of what is allowed in the Terms of Service for the forums, just making sure you don't search the internet needlessly for information you aren't likely to find (especially in the ways you are searching). However, if you have the money, definitely pay a visit to Amazon.com and pick up the Player's Handbook 2 and the Tome of Battle. These books will greatly enrich your game almost more than any other two suppliments I can think of.
Tempest Stormwind 08-23-07, 04:33 PM	Its seem that feats could really change my monk,and not only the prestige class...I was woring that it would get to level 20 and only get this...kind of bad goodly form skill,but whit feats =O i could try to hide this weakness in another way. Should i choose some feats before choose the prestige class? The feats can only do so much, and they really only work if you have a lot of books to draw upon (usually PHB2 and Complete Warrior). I would highly suggest you forget about the "monk" class and switch to the swordsage; you'll need to buy a new book (Tome of Battle), but you'd *already* need to do that to get the feats/PrCs you want for your monk. I checked,but couldnt find monks feats like this on the net,do you guys have a web site where i could find some?And one where i could check the swordsage stats,skills upgrades? No, because the book isn't free. However, you will NOT regret picking it up. If you have money for a second book, the PHB2 is perhaps your best option. The *only* "monk prestige class" that's available for free online from the Wizards books is the Fist of Zuoken, under the name Psionic Fist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionicFist.htm). It can do *most* of what you want, but it requires you to read up on the psionics rules rather fiercely first. And it turns you into a type of caster. Finally,i got one for the monks feats =D! http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/3.5_L5R_Kiho They sound real nice!!!am i wrong? You are. Look at what those are. They're from AEG, not Wizards of the Coast, and they're the Kiho feats aimed at emulating Legend of the 5 Rings (that's what L5R means). AEG has a terrible idea of game balance (and even game *mechanics*; the Rokugan campaign setting assumes you roll initiative each round, for instance, but doesn't actually say that, so if you run the game as written you get glitches where some abilities *always* happen or *never* happen in a given combat).
monk2000 08-23-07, 04:51 PM	OKay....i now understand ^^;;; those skills looked to good to be trully used XD DAMN!!!!! So what feats should i try to get whit unarmed monk who would get swordsage levels? illegal,yea,its true...sorry about it ^^; So ill need to get the book to check the swordsage...Does the speed of the monk,his ac and unarmed damage upgrades at the same time the swordsage level up,as it would do whit some others classes? A lot of you guys told me about swordsage,and ill try to get some informations about it *I can't really afford to buy the book for now...i just bougth a guitar,and im short on money for now* My new questions on monks are =O! If i would multiclass my monk in swordsage,at what level should i stop my monk and start my swordsage levels,and,what feats should i get to bost my unarmed damage or that could make me weaken monsters,unarm them and all those stuff =O!!!
Tempest Stormwind 08-23-07, 05:29 PM	So what feats should i try to get whit unarmed monk who would get swordsage levels? illegal,yea,its true...sorry about it ^^; Not illegal at all. The monk has terrible multiclasisng restrictions, but nothing stops it from gaining levels in swordsage. You just can't return to monk. Not that you'd want to, really. (There are reasons to go for monk, even with swordsage. However, roughly 100% of them lie in the first two levels of monk abilities, and you can manage completely well without them.) So ill need to get the book to check the swordsage...Does the speed of the monk,his ac and unarmed damage upgrades at the same time the swordsage level up,as it would do whit some others classes? No, because the swordsage is a separate class. However, the swordsage has an unarmed variant which gives it exactly the same unarmed progression as a monk (and if you don't want variants, Superior Unarmed Strike gets you close). If you want AC, they can wear light armor and still get Wis to AC, *and* they have 'counters' -- basically, if someone attacks you, you can probably dodge it or reverse it if you know what you're doing. As for speed, they can move very quickly (sometimes attacking *while* they move), teleport, and fly, given enough levels, thanks to their maneuvers. A lot of you guys told me about swordsage,and ill try to get some informations about it *I can't really afford to buy the book for now...i just bougth a guitar,and im short on money for now* Get your group to chip in. Everyone who enjoys melee characters will enjoy that book. If i would multiclass my monk in swordsage,at what level should i stop my monk and start my swordsage levels,and,what feats should i get to bost my unarmed damage or that could make me weaken monsters,unarm them and all those stuff =O!!! When to multiclass: Zero monk levels is ideal. If you *must*, two levels (for two bonus feats and Flurry) or four levels (due to the interesting way that Tome of Battle classes multiclass). Feats for damage: Superior Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick, both in the Tome of Battle. The former gives you a damage progression similar to the monk -- but if you already do have monklike unarmed damage (i.e. you're a monk or an unarmed swordsage) it gives you +4 effective levels for it. Snap Kick lets you add an unarmed attack on *any round you attack*, even if that attack is just a standard action (i.e. you can move, attack someone, then Snap Kick them). Feats for everything else: Ignore them. Swordsage maneuvers give you all that you've asked for and don't cost feats. However, you *will* want the Adaptive Style feat, for reasons that'll be obvious when you read the swordsage.
bkdubs123 08-23-07, 06:41 PM	OR you could just wait to start your Monk character until 4th Edition graces us with its presense. XD. Surely there will be a way to build a nifty Monk-type character through either multiclassing a Fighter with something else, or through Fighter options of themselves. I am a large proponent of Tome of Battle, and it seems many of its concepts/mechanics were simply previews of 4e mechanics so I can only hope for more of the same sort of combat mechanics. Anyway, just being a Devil's Advocate. Tome of Battle is a wonderful book, and I strongly suggest you convince your group to pitch in for it. (Stormwind knows his stuff.)
dman11235 08-24-07, 10:18 PM	Not being a big fan of ToB, and being a big fan of monks (Sorry Stormwind), I would suggest straight monk and take the variant from Dragon Magic. Gives up your level 1 bonus feat for elemental damage. And then you could take stunning fist when you qualify later if you want. Might I suggest going exalted and taking intuitive attack? Reduces MAD! Also, exalted opens up some really interesting RPing issues, with the vows. Personnally I don't think vow of poverty is all that great without vow of peace. But that's not a viable option most of the time. What I do agree with stormwind on is that you shouldn't multi-class monk/swordsage. If you still want a PrC, then some good ones are Initiate of Pistis Sophia, and if you want to go with the caster aproach, Fist of Zuoken, Enlightened Fist, and Sacred Fist. For Sacred Fist, concentrate on your cleric levels more than monk, and for enlightened fist, take Ascetic Mage, as sorcerer is probably the best combination here.
Athaal 08-25-07, 02:40 PM	try my disciple of the fist maybe you level as the monk, and get elemental abilities. not to mention an awesome capstone. the link is in my signature
Raggers 08-26-07, 04:50 AM	"my Disciple of the Fist" I think you are forgetting the monk in your party who actually created it, albiet with help from you
The_Shaman 08-27-07, 12:19 PM	Hoo!Nice =D!Ill try to find the description of this class as soon as possible!!! I found a lot of the monk prestiges classes....the name XD But no descriptions T__T!!! Shou disciple unapprochable east Sun Soul monk City of splendors tattooed monk Complete warrior disciple of the word Tome of magic jade phoenix mage tome of battle Shadow Sun ninja tome of battle argent fist faiths of eberron Fist of Dal Quor Secrets of sarlona fist of the forest Complete champion Crane Shen Dragon shen Initiate of Pistis Sophia Mantis shen Master of east wind Monkey shen Snake shen Tiger shen What are those...shen?For now,i still want to make a monk =D!If you would have to choose one of those prsetige classes for the fun and strong skills,what would it be and why? In your opinion,what could make the perfect monk.In your opinion!I want to forge what ill be thinking whit persons thought who know how to play the game! *sorry for all those mistakes...really XDDD Im terrible T__T* There are a few more, not to say many more. Off the top of my head I can think of the following: - Enlightened Fist: monk/arcane caster hybrid. Not too bad, but you might want to check the feats that make your monk abilities work off intelligence or charisma rather than wisdom (kung fu genius, carmendine monk, ascetic mage). The multiclassing makes you a bit weaker in combat, but the spellcasting more than makes up. - Sacred Fist (CDiv): same, but for divine casters. The wisdom synergy, full BAB and decent progression as well as being able to do a lot of stuff in light armor make this a rather powerful class. However, you take a vow to use only your unarmed strike as a weapon. Then again, is that so bad? Consider taking versatile unarmed strike and you're set. - Psionic Fist/Fist of Zuoken (SRD/XPH): a monk/psionicist; as an interesting twist it does not require you to actually have any levels in a psionic class and gives you a separate, wisdom-based progression. While the advancement table is as bland as that for sorcerers, it is still imo a very neat class and you can get some great powers with it. - Shintao Monk (Oriental Adventures, updated in Dragon 318) - a LG order of monks who have better combat training (feats), additional powers and even some smite evil. Monk meets paladin... pretty decent imo, but the RP requirement is a serious limitation - Heishin Mystic (likewise) - well... I'm not really sure what to say. It has a set of different abilities called "riddles" which seem to be somewhat elemental-related. It is imo quite nice, but I can't really pinpoint the flavor of it. - Tattooed monk (likewise for the unnerfed version) - the CW version lacks flurry progression and requires endurance. The OA/Dragon version actually gave endurance - as well as diehard - from one of the tattoos. I think of this as a modular monk - it has practically all PHB monk abilities on tattoos and then some, so you can cherry-pick what monk abilities you have. - Long Death Monk (Player's Guide to Faerun) - ouchie. A rather macabre monk order whose disciples are obsessed with death. Remember that psychotic dwarf monk NPC from NWN? He was one of them. Anyway, they get some assassin-ish abilities (yep, including death attack), and further resistance to poisons and death effects, among other things. On the downside, the higher-ups try to kill you if you leave. Not the most powerful bunch for pure fighting, but can be rather dangerous for some of its other abilities. The most interesting part is that it is fairly open to non-monks who want to learn some monk mojo. - Monk of the X wind (Dragon magazine) - another set of monk/X hybrids. I think they had something for clerics, mages, druids and rogues - Monk of the Enabled Hand (Dragon magazine/compendium): something of a martial artist monk imo. Its abilites are combat-related and with a slight wuxia feel. Great if you want to fling people across the battlefield and the DM frowns on magic or ToB for your character. There are others such as arcanopath monk, zerth cenobyte, etc but I know too little about them to be of help. Also, iirc Secrets of Sarlona has the Talashatora feat, which essentially stacks monk levels with levels in any 1 psionic class for most monk abilities... That could get pretty awesome. As for which is "perfect", it would probably depend on what you want your monk to be and do. Shou disciple is great for a warrior monk, while a psionic/sacred fist is awesome for a more mystical feel.
Label 08-28-07, 04:23 PM	You want prestige classes? Take a look at this official list : http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/prc
WIUGamers 08-29-07, 02:06 AM	Not illegal at all. The monk has terrible multiclasisng restrictions, but nothing stops it from gaining levels in swordsage. You just can't return to monk. Not that you'd want to, really. (There are reasons to go for monk, even with swordsage. However, roughly 100% of them lie in the first two levels of monk abilities, and you can manage completely well without them.) No, because the swordsage is a separate class. However, the swordsage has an unarmed variant which gives it exactly the same unarmed progression as a monk (and if you don't want variants, Superior Unarmed Strike gets you close). If you want AC, they can wear light armor and still get Wis to AC, *and* they have 'counters' -- basically, if someone attacks you, you can probably dodge it or reverse it if you know what you're doing. As for speed, they can move very quickly (sometimes attacking *while* they move), teleport, and fly, given enough levels, thanks to their maneuvers. Get your group to chip in. Everyone who enjoys melee characters will enjoy that book. When to multiclass: Zero monk levels is ideal. If you *must*, two levels (for two bonus feats and Flurry) or four levels (due to the interesting way that Tome of Battle classes multiclass). Feats for damage: Superior Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick, both in the Tome of Battle. The former gives you a damage progression similar to the monk -- but if you already do have monklike unarmed damage (i.e. you're a monk or an unarmed swordsage) it gives you +4 effective levels for it. Snap Kick lets you add an unarmed attack on *any round you attack*, even if that attack is just a standard action (i.e. you can move, attack someone, then Snap Kick them). Feats for everything else: Ignore them. Swordsage maneuvers give you all that you've asked for and don't cost feats. However, you *will* want the Adaptive Style feat, for reasons that'll be obvious when you read the swordsage. I don't know that much about the sword sage, but why so much dissing on the Monk? Seriously, I find the class to be extremely efficient at what it does. In my opinion, the best class to try to mix with the monk is the scout, but that's just me. But I am a monk fan, and I just don't understand why there is so much negativity towards them
bkdubs123 08-29-07, 02:22 AM	Its not so much negativity toward the Monk, as it is complete enamoured-ness for the Swordsage. It does alot of stuff the Monk already does but better, and does A WHOLE CRAP TON of stuff that no Monk could ever dream of. Another big problem against the Monk is that so much material (by way of feats and such) has been provided as to make actually playing a Monk less attractive than playing some other class and then picking up Monk-like abilities (psionics, incarnum and Tome of Battle tend to offer a lot of Monk-ish abilities for any character to take advantage of).
The_Shaman 08-29-07, 08:21 AM	I don't know that much about the sword sage, but why so much dissing on the Monk? Seriously, I find the class to be extremely efficient at what it does. In my opinion, the best class to try to mix with the monk is the scout, but that's just me. But I am a monk fan, and I just don't understand why there is so much negativity towards them Actually, afaik the main problem with the monk is that it does not quite deliver what you expect - and even what it should. First of all, as a warrior you have some serious problems. You get bonuses to grapple and trip, but heavy reliance on several ability and medium BAB hamper you. You get flurry of blows, but it forces you to stay toe-to-toe with an opponent, and even with dex and wis to AC, that can be a bad idea. You're supposed to be good at fighting spellcasters, and you are somewhat better than other classes, but even then, don't think that a properly prepared mage or sorcerer doesn't have what it takes to foil you - and I'm not even touching clerics or druids. You are a decent skirmisher, sure, but you're not incredible even at that.
dman11235 08-29-07, 11:43 AM	Agreed. They need a monk/scout multiclass feat. Monk is one of my favorite classes to play (my other two are scorcerer and scout), but it makes me disapointed that ToB came along and kind of went, bye bye monk! Swordsage is better than a monk at what monks do, and that really makes me mad. (Also, warblade is better than a fighter at what fighters do, but thats for a different thread). Sure you need str, dex, con, and wis for swordsages (and maybe int, I can't remember), and monks only NEED dex, con, and wis, but the swordsage still steals the monk's thunder (some people will say that the monk never had any thunder to begin with, I disagree. I have played them, and they've been well balanced for me, and very rewarding to play, especially gestalt with cleric). I have never actually played them with the "mage killer" personality, because first of all getting to the mage, yeah. I've always played up the AC and saves, getting to the point where my touch AC is higher than everyone else's regular AC, and I only ever fail a save on a natural 1. (Granted, there were times when the DM made it so that the enemies could actually hit me regularly, but those instances didn't happen often (thinking of the rest of the party)). This is probably the reason why I don't like ToB, because it makes classes obsolete. BTW, what does "afaik" mean? I've seen it every where, but I haven't been able to figure it out.
Tempest Stormwind 08-30-07, 12:56 AM	"As Far As I Know." I've said it before: A monk is a collection of K'nex, Meccano, and a Barrel-o-Monkeys. Each individual piece might be interesting, but it's almost impossible to build using those pieces since they don't fit together. Add to this an inability to do what other characters take for granted (for instance, just enhance up some armor for better AC or a weapon for a better attack bonus; a monk can do this, but it's *far* costlier and costs magic item slots), and you get a class that only looks good on paper. Compare to anything from the ToB, which is basically a room full of Lego -- all of which fits together and is nearly impossible to break -- and you see why I attack the monk. The swordsage is everything it should have been and more. For the record, it doesn't make anything obsolete that wasn't already obsolete before. If anything, it takes those concepts and actually makes them PLAYABLE and DYNAMIC. And it doesn't do it by amping up numbers (it's easy to demonstrate that they don't outdamage existing characters, for instance); they do it by amping up *options*. Something the monk lacks, I might add. (Oh, and I also find it odd that every experienced monk from every single monk tradition anywhere in the world always gets Still Mind, for instance. 's not the case with the swordsage, who has far more diverisity in maneuver selection.)
dman11235 08-30-07, 01:13 AM	Curse your charisma! And your well thought out arguments! Every time I read your posts I want to play a ToB class or a psionic class! (I do actually like psionics, though). I do agree that there are problems with the monk (like quivering palm and abundant step) but I really like some other things about it (like the unarmed, unarmored ascetic). The capstone really fits with the class in my opinion (I don't use acronyms for things usually). The one thing that the swordsage doesn't take from them is the spiritualness and transcendance of the ascetic. For the record, I will defend tome of battle agaisnt people who think it's overpowered, I just don't really like it. I may change with time, but I do really love the monk and don't want to see it die. Also, I have never been a fan of using damage as a balancer or to demonstrate how "good" something is. I play high AC/saves characers. There was an alternate monk made by Witch recently called the martial artist. It gives the variety that the monk needs, but gets rid of the spiritual aspect (unless you take those techniques). I'd link it but I don't know how. Don't worry, I'm learning.
WIUGamers 08-30-07, 02:02 AM	Well, I'll agree that the Monk doesn't excell in combat, but it is actually a good dungeoneering class. I never paid that much attention, but it really does develope into something that can handle terrains. Of course the scout and rogue have ungodly high skill mods, but a monk is competent in the world of exploring. let's discuss this.
dman11235 08-30-07, 02:20 AM	Maybe the monk was too well balanced? They tried to do every thing, and thus are like taking one level of each barbarian scorcerer, wizard, fighter, rogue, and ranger (I don't even WANT to know what kind of MAD problems that character has, oh wait, I do). Maybe if they specialized a little more (and had ways to trip/grapple/skirmish/etc. more) then it would be better. That's what Witch did with his, specialized, and actually made it worthwhile.
The_Shaman 08-30-07, 11:53 AM	Well, I'll agree that the Monk doesn't excell in combat, but it is actually a good dungeoneering class. I never paid that much attention, but it really does develope into something that can handle terrains. Of course the scout and rogue have ungodly high skill mods, but a monk is competent in the world of exploring. let's discuss this. I think you're wrong, or I just don't see your point. Just how is a monk a better explorer or dungeon-delver than a scout? He has less skill points, so he can't detect or evade as many hazards as the scout (or rogue). He is somewhat faster, but a dungeon crawl is not a race. He is incapable of dealing with traps. His advantages as a dungeon-delver lie in peripheral abilities like immunity to poison, but is this so important? Spells and alchemical tools are readily available for those who want to be prepared. I'm sorry, but if you want a decent dungeon delver, a scout or a ranger (with the feature exchanging track for trapfinding, or just being able to get trapfinding as a feat - they deserve it as much as the scouts do, damnit!) will do a much better job than a monk.
dman11235 08-30-07, 12:45 PM	Ranger can get trapfinding with the alternate class feature in Dungeonscape.
Tempest Stormwind 08-30-07, 03:56 PM	Curse your charisma! And your well thought out arguments! Every time I read your posts I want to play a ToB class or a psionic class! (I do actually like psionics, though). I do agree that there are problems with the monk (like quivering palm and abundant step) but I really like some other things about it (like the unarmed, unarmored ascetic). The capstone really fits with the class in my opinion (I don't use acronyms for things usually). The one thing that the swordsage doesn't take from them is the spiritualness and transcendance of the ascetic. One doesn't need to be an outsider to transcend, nor does one need to transcend to be part of an ascetic order. I'd suggest looking at the higher-end Shadow Hand or Setting Sun or Desert Wind moves, especially the 7th and 8th level maneuvers, to see what I mean -- Shadow Hand adepts are so in tune with the shadows that they can actually merge with them as a reaction to an attack, for instance. If you *really* want transcendance -- which isn't necessarily the goal of every monastic order anyway -- there's a hojillion prestige classes that do so as well, including at least two in the Tome itself (the Jade Phoenix Mage and the Shadow Sun Ninja, although they don't do it via becoming an outsider) and any of the dozens that a monk can qualify for (as the unarmed swordsage meets nearly every requirement that most monk PrCs require). For the record, I will defend tome of battle agaisnt people who think it's overpowered, I just don't really like it. I may change with time, but I do really love the monk and don't want to see it die. Also, I have never been a fan of using damage as a balancer or to demonstrate how "good" something is. I play high AC/saves characers. I can demonstrate exactly the same thing with AC and saves. (And if you want a high AC, what in blazes are you doing with a monk? Their AC *sucks* in all dimensions except touch AC, and a wilder can easily outdo a monk there without any powers at all!) I just use damage in my calculations because people see damage and go OMFGBROKENBANQUICKPLZKTHXBAI or something similar. Which is as moronic as their claims relating to the Tome. There was an alternate monk made by Witch recently called the martial artist. It gives the variety that the monk needs, but gets rid of the spiritual aspect (unless you take those techniques). I'd link it but I don't know how. Don't worry, I'm learning. Use the URL tag. I've seen it, though. It still didn't address the primary mechanical problems of mechanical synergy. The classic example (since it kicks in at such a low level) is this: The monk's signature popular abilities for new players tend to be Flurry of Blows and Fast Movement. Note that the use of one precludes the use of the other, since you can't move and full attack (and you must full attack to get the flurry). Maybe the monk was too well balanced? :rofl: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. ~Inigo Montoya The definition of balance is equality in choice. If there is no clear choice that is "better" or "worse", then that choice is balanced. The typical example I cite is the Constructor, from the Mind's Eye. Its capstone ability is the ability to freely apply Quicken Power to Astral Construct (the power the whole class is based around) without having the feat or spending the power points. This is a HUGE power. However, level 10 also costs you a manifester level, and you already lost one of those in entering the class. ML factors into your power points, powers known, duration, range, ease of dispelling and most importantly the augment cap. In other words, losing an ML is equally huge in comparison to the free Quicken. You decide at the time whether or not to take that last level or another level of Psion -- free quicken to your primary power on one side, being better at *everything* (including your primary power) on the other. Taste the indecision? That's balance, right there. Now, look at the monk. Everything it tries to do, other classes can also do, and typically do them better. The one, and only, thing the monk is clearly the best in is that it is the only class with three good saves (though Paladins with Divine Grace can come close and spells can blow that out the window, monks don't need to spend to do that). Druids outdo them in speed and unarmed combat. Rogues outdo them in stealth and damage gankery. Fighter-types outdo them in AC, dramatically. And yet the monk is supposed to be able to stand toe-to-toe with each of these classes in that single, specific area. Hell, even formerly monk-exclusive tricks, like wisdom-to-AC, can be found on other classes (the ninja and, notably, the swordsage, surprise surprise). In other words, except for single, specific abilities you might need (i.e. if you want to enter Fist of Zuoken, you need Still Mind -- this is, incidentally, identical to the Swashbuckler, which no one takes except for Insightful Strike since other classes do swashbuckling better!), the monk is consistently a poor choice. There's no indecision here at all. They tried to do every thing, and thus are like taking one level of each barbarian scorcerer, wizard, fighter, rogue, and ranger (I don't even WANT to know what kind of MAD problems that character has, oh wait, I do). Maybe if they specialized a little more (and had ways to trip/grapple/skirmish/etc. more) then it would be better. That's what Witch did with his, specialized, and actually made it worthwhile. Witch's fix is superior, yes, but I still wouldn't call it worthwhile. It's a definite start, though. Ranger can get trapfinding with the alternate class feature in Dungeonscape. But monks never can without multiclassing, which prevents them from being monks. I'm with the Shaman here; I don't see how a monk is even *close* to being on par with rogues, scouts, and rangers at dungeoneering.
dman11235 08-30-07, 07:43 PM	One doesn't need to be an outsider to transcend, nor does one need to transcend to be part of an ascetic order. I'd suggest looking at the higher-end Shadow Hand or Setting Sun or Desert Wind moves, especially the 7th and 8th level maneuvers, to see what I mean -- Shadow Hand adepts are so in tune with the shadows that they can actually merge with them as a reaction to an attack, for instance. If you *really* want transcendance -- which isn't necessarily the goal of every monastic order anyway -- there's a hojillion prestige classes that do so as well, including at least two in the Tome itself (the Jade Phoenix Mage and the Shadow Sun Ninja, although they don't do it via becoming an outsider) and any of the dozens that a monk can qualify for (as the unarmed swordsage meets nearly every requirement that most monk PrCs require). Dang it. I can demonstrate exactly the same thing with AC and saves. (And if you want a high AC, what in blazes are you doing with a monk? Their AC *sucks* in all dimensions except touch AC, and a wilder can easily outdo a monk there without any powers at all!) Really? I have yet to make a monk with a lower AC than any one else in the party. My last monk (granted, Githzerai gestalt cleric (only a little came from cleric: +3)) had a higher touch AC than most everyone else's regular AC. I have made psychic warriors with higher (Highest AC build I have made is psi war 10/dwarv def. 10 against a giant got it to 120 or so), but all of my monks have been having really high ACs. Does that mean that every one else just can't get it there, or am I missing something? I just use damage in my calculations because people see damage and go OMFGBROKENBANQUICKPLZKTHXBAI or something similar. Which is as moronic as their claims relating to the Tome. Aha! I see we have some similarities! I too have used this (though not often) to try and nail it into some peoples heads that certain things are not broken (like the ToB, or psionics. I have defended both). Use the URL tag. Thanks. I've seen it, though. It still didn't address the primary mechanical problems of mechanical synergy. The classic example (since it kicks in at such a low level) is this: The monk's signature popular abilities for new players tend to be Flurry of Blows and Fast Movement. Note that the use of one precludes the use of the other, since you can't move and full attack (and you must full attack to get the flurry). You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. ~Inigo Montoya Ah, but i this case, I was using it to mean, well, balanced. Over a bunch of abilities, not balanced mechanics wise. Trying to find the sweet spot, if you will, between defense and offense, and everything else. The definition of balance is equality in choice. If there is no clear choice that is "better" or "worse", then that choice is balanced. The typical example I cite is the Constructor, from the Mind's Eye. Its capstone ability is the ability to freely apply Quicken Power to Astral Construct (the power the whole class is based around) without having the feat or spending the power points. This is a HUGE power. However, level 10 also costs you a manifester level, and you already lost one of those in entering the class. ML factors into your power points, powers known, duration, range, ease of dispelling and most importantly the augment cap. In other words, losing an ML is equally huge in comparison to the free Quicken. You decide at the time whether or not to take that last level or another level of Psion -- free quicken to your primary power on one side, being better at *everything* (including your primary power) on the other. Taste the indecision? That's balance, right there. I think I have read you cite this before somewhere, but I can't remember. And yes, I am aware as to what makes something "balanced" in the way you are using the word here. Now, look at the monk. Everything it tries to do, other classes can also do, and typically do them better. The one, and only, thing the monk is clearly the best in is that it is the only class with three good saves (though Paladins with Divine Grace can come close and spells can blow that out the window, monks don't need to spend to do that). Druids outdo them in speed and unarmed combat. Rogues outdo them in stealth and damage gankery. Fighter-types outdo them in AC, dramatically. And yet the monk is supposed to be able to stand toe-to-toe with each of these classes in that single, specific area. Hell, even formerly monk-exclusive tricks, like wisdom-to-AC, can be found on other classes (the ninja and, notably, the swordsage, surprise surprise). But can any of those do all of those? That's what I like about the monk, it is a balanced blend of many different abilities. Even though it isn't a "balanced" or very smooth blend. I think I'm going to use solely Witch's fix in my campaign, and for the spiritual aspect, take the transcendence tree. But monks never can without multiclassing, which prevents them from being monks. I'm with the Shaman here; I don't see how a monk is even *close* to being on par with rogues, scouts, and rangers at dungeoneering. I was just pointing out that rangers could. I am aware that monks cannot. By the way, ever consider becoming a politician or a lawyer?
dman11235 08-30-07, 08:42 PM	You know what? You've convinced me that the monk is poorly constructed. Every time I look at it, I think, "there must be a better way". I still wil not play swordsage (at least, not yet), but yeah I agree with you on pretty much every thing you've said about the monk. It needs a major remake. I don't see much wrong with Witch's, but maybe you could give me some pointers on how to notice what classes need?
Tempest Stormwind 08-30-07, 10:50 PM	Really? I have yet to make a monk with a lower AC than any one else in the party. My last monk (granted, Githzerai gestalt cleric (only a little came from cleric: +3)) had a higher touch AC than most everyone else's regular AC. I have made psychic warriors with higher (Highest AC build I have made is psi war 10/dwarv def. 10 against a giant got it to 120 or so), but all of my monks have been having really high ACs. Does that mean that every one else just can't get it there, or am I missing something? Then the rest of your party had no idea what it was doing. The monk has relatively decent AC early on -- if you have phenominal ability scores. Assuming 18 Wisdom, you have the same AC as a rogue with equivalent Dexterity and a chain shirt (although you do have a higher touch AC, you're equal everywhere else; recall that wisdom bonuses are *not* lost if you're flat-footed). However, that's an 18 in WISDOM -- you're a frontliner without armor and with high mobility, which means you *need* Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution on top of that. The rogue just needs 100 GP. And rogues are hardly the kings of AC, let me remind you. This only gets worse as you gain levels and can afford magic armor -- because a monk *cannot*. For a monk to get a +1 AC bonus item, the cheapest he can get is an amulet of natural armor -- which, prior to the MIC, was *exactly* where his periapt of wisdom or amulet of health should be (and now is where the amulet of mighty fists should be). The next-cheapest was 2000 GP and ate up the bracers or ring slots, which could have been used for other items as your Body slot goes empty. Oh, and all of that for a mere +1 -- fighters have upgraded from scale mail to +1 full plate by now, which is a +5 increase. Similarly with weaponry, I might add, but that's neither here nor there. Basically, it just means the rest of the party hasn't been thinking. Ah, but i this case, I was using it to mean, well, balanced. Over a bunch of abilities, not balanced mechanics wise. Trying to find the sweet spot, if you will, between defense and offense, and everything else. The phrase is "unfocused." Like a group without a leader. If you want the sweet spot between defense and offense, you look at the wizard. I End Lives spells combined with spells that make sure you're never hit? I'd call that pretty sweet. Naturally, a monk can't claim the same. Nor can she actually deal with the wizard, I might add -- there's enough no-save spells in the wizard's arsenal and the monk has very few ways of penetrating the wizard's defenses. The typcially cited one is "grapple him!", but that's foolish after level 7 (Dimension Door only has a verbal component and by that point the wizard has a very good Concentration modifier to cast it in a grapple, and at higher levels you have contingencies or even Freedom of Movement), or perhaps earlier if he's FLYING. Prior to level 5ish, why do you even need a specialized mageslayer? But can any of those do all of those? That's what I like about the monk, it is a balanced blend of many different abilities. Even though it isn't a "balanced" or very smooth blend. I think I'm going to use solely Witch's fix in my campaign, and for the spiritual aspect, take the transcendence tree. Question: Would a class that got Weapon Focus, Spell Focus, Tactile Trapsmith, Augment Healing, Endurance, and Combat Manifestation be awesome? No. It's not focused at all. The monk essentially does the same thing, except without spells. It also attempts to reflect every different tradition by emulating a tiny touch of each -- which is like learning a kung fu punch, a judo lock, a tae kwan do kick, an aikdo throw, and a karate method of absorbing a specific type of blow... and then saying you're a master of judo or somesuch. Which is what the monk does. Go and read the PHB2: They provide about seven different types of "monk styles" -- which are played *exactly* the same (except for the one that uses the quarterstaff instead of the unarmed strike). The only difference is the words you use. Not only is it not mechanically specialized at all, its *lack* of specialization means that they all play the same, too. Witch tries to deal with this, but he's still got problems in terms of mechanical synergy. It's *so* much easier just to use the swordsage. Hell, the swordsage's Setting Sun school is also the *only* USEFUL implementation of soft martial arts (throws, locks, etc) that has *ever* shown up in 3e D&D, and I've actually followed its development from day 1. Prior to Setting Sun, the best you had was OA styles, which involved spending way too many feats for way too minor a benefit. By the way, ever consider becoming a politician or a lawyer? Gods, no. I'm an academic. I deal in the search for truth.
dman11235 08-31-07, 12:48 AM	Dang. And you'd be great at it too. And we need that search for truth in today's politics. I do bow to your superior intellect of the game and it's workings. Just a couple final remarks. I should probably mention the 38 PB with the touch higher than regular monk, with half my wealth spent on AC. I believe at that time my AC was 51, touch 41 and the rest of the party had an AC average of 38. Level 13 or 12. I was githzerai. It was a while ago though, so don't hold those numbers to me. I shall start looking for class ability meshing in the classes I critique, as to not give bad advice. Also start looking for this in the classes I make, in order to make a better class from the start. Also, that's the word I'm looking for, unfocused fits so much better. Thank you for your advice, and time. It's been a pleasure. I feel I must add, I feel like a kid after he was told that Santa doesn't exist. Gee, thanks.:P
Tempest Stormwind 08-31-07, 03:49 AM	I should probably mention the 38 PB with the touch higher than regular monk, with half my wealth spent on AC. I believe at that time my AC was 51, touch 41 and the rest of the party had an AC average of 38. Level 13 or 12. I was githzerai. It was a while ago though, so don't hold those numbers to me. Githzerai's level adjustment means they can't start until ECL 3, and they lose out on plenty of hit points, attack bonus, and more. They make the monk slightly more than worthless, but first, that's a property of the race instead of the class (Inertial Armor? Huge bonuses to all monk-relevant ability scores?), and second, that race has a huge drawback in the form of level adjustment, which is, as a rule, avoided on the CO boards. I should also note that this was a stellar example of how the monk needs to jump through hoops. You invested over half your wealth in AC boosters. Other classes could have gotten the same boost for less money, and it wouldn't have eaten up their magic item slots. That you ended up ahead of them is only significant because they, evidently, didn't know what they were doing. (A half-decent psychic warrior can get an AC well above 45 at level 11ish if he's played by someone who knows how that class *works*, for instance.) I shall start looking for class ability meshing in the classes I critique, as to not give bad advice. Also start looking for this in the classes I make, in order to make a better class from the start. There's a lot more to it than synergy within the class to look for. This thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=879725) had a *perfect* theory on class design, but OW4 took it down because he was overreacting to WotC's ToU document. We'll get it back up in a mirror soon, but check the discussion there for now. I feel I must add, I feel like a kid after he was told that Santa doesn't exist. Gee, thanks.:P And for my next trick... (http://llbbl.com/data/RPG-motivational/target137.html)
dman11235 08-31-07, 11:31 AM	Okay, subscribed to that thread. I shall read it as I have time this weekend. I did mention that psy wars can get a much higher AC than monks. Note the way I got the 120 wa psy war dwarven defender with a monk's belt. I contemplated playing a psy war in the next campaign, just for the great AC and saves, but I'm doing bear warrior instead.