Post/Author/DateTime	Post
maikeru333 03-15-07, 03:06 AM	I guess my last post didn't make it... must have time out and not saved... was a long post. :confused: I Was wondering if devoted defender has been revamped for 3.5 anywhere. People I know suggest it is 'broken' and therefore should not be allowed. I really like the idea, and would like to build on it, and maybe iron some issues that were contentious out. But I'm new to the forums, and I don't know how to search the forums other than to go page by page, so I have no idea what else might be in here. thx
maikeru333 03-15-07, 03:10 AM	ps. how do I watch/subscribe to a thread? Maybe I missed something when posting?
maikeru333 04-16-07, 05:45 PM	*bump*
Karzach 04-16-07, 06:23 PM	Where did Devoted Defender originate from?
bobothechimp 04-16-07, 10:17 PM	Devoted Defender is in Sword and Fist, a 3.0 supplement that was converted into Complete Warrior. I'm a big fan of it. A lot of the classes are great fun to put onto either PCs or NPCs.
ChaoticGood 04-16-07, 11:50 PM	As I recall, the Devoted Defender was mostly decried because it shared its abilities with another character (the DevDef's "charge," IIRC). Apparently, sharing abilities is a big no-no, even though there are plenty of buff spells. :rolleyes:
bobothechimp 04-17-07, 01:30 AM	I really like the Devoted Defender PrC. I once played a Half-Orc who was the bodyguard of another PC, an almost ancient human Wizard with a constitution score of about 6 and hit points hardly higher.
maikeru333 04-24-07, 12:05 PM	the main problem my friend in particular says he has with, and that perhaps became a problem in rpga type play and so on, was that as soon as you get two devoted defenders together, each can defend the other, and they become effectively invincible, deflecting all attacks aimed at either of them. Other characters and prestige classes have sometimes very powerful abilities, I don't think it should be a problem that devoted defenders would be good at what they do, but I think some of the 'problem' with the class was also that you could merely take say, 3 levels of the class, get all the significant abilities and kind of break encounters and so on from there on in... so in that way, they may not be comparable with other characters or p-classes of similar level. My thought to balance this, was to make the deflect attack ability based on using up attacks of opportunity, make the retributive strike each time you deflect bundled with something like karmic strike, and then add in additional/ increased amount of attacks of opportunity in with the class, perhaps finally in epic levels, allowing the 'unlimited' number of aoo's, somewhat like with the monks deflect arrows, that can become 'unlimited deflect' and like start deflecting spells and stuff. I have lots of ideas for the devoted defender, but maybe too many: I would probably have to stretch some of the abilities into epic for the sake of game balance. Something else that people complained about was 'harm's way' - mostly when say the devdef is like medium size, and the thing being defended was like, much larger... swapping them around then became a much bigger deal... I think a comparative space/reach figuring which determines how much/where you can protect, and possibly merging the devdef and the one who he is protecting ('owhip') into one unit for the purposes of intercepting attacks may be able to solve this. However, if there is little need to modify devoted defender to make it work in a game, maybe I shouldn't bother with trying to massage the rules to make it work better... just because a GM or some players no how to 'gamehack' a p-class to make it unbalanced, doesn't necessarily make it fair to ban it for everyone.
Zuractai 04-27-07, 10:42 PM	Yea, One of my favorite chars (And now mostly NPC because I rarely get to do anything but DM) is a Devoted defender. because i happen to have DD open in another tab, here are the abilities. Armor Class Bonus: The devoted defender concentrates on defense, both for herself and her charge. She receives this dodge bonus to AC as a result of that focus. (This ability seems fine to me.) Harm's Way: Beginning at 1st level, the devoted defender may elect to place herself in the path of danger in order to protect her single charge. Any time that you are within 5 feet of your charge, and your charge suffers an attack, you may switch places with your charge and receive the attack in his place. You must declare this before the attack roll is made. You select your charge when you roll initiative, and it is a free action to do so. You may not change your charge for the duration of that combat. (It is true that this basicly means you need to take out the DD or use magic against the target, but that is sorta their job... I would understand adding some size differance limitation. Same size or less, or one size larger and less at the maximum would make sence in just game world concept.) Defensive Strike: You can make an attack of opportunity against any adjacent opponent who attacks your charge in melee. You gain a +1 bonus to this attack for every two levels after 2nd. (I assume that the AOEs count against the normal limit. It is true that the DD would have a greater chance then most to get to use all their AOEs. If you included that the Enemy knows that if you attack the DD's Charge they will leave themselves open to an attack, they should choose to attack the DD, which is sorta the point... Perhaps not allowing this and Harm's way to be used against the same attack might also be a good idea, but I could also see you switching places with them while making the AoE, sorta like the fighting style of some elves in some of the more recent drizzt books.) Deflect Attack: Beginning at 3rd level, the devoted defender can attempt to parry a melee attack against her charge. She must be within 5 feet of her charge to attempt this and holding a melee weapon or shield to deflect the attack. Once per round when your charge would normally be hit with a melee weapon, you may make a Reflex saving throw against DC 20. (If the melee weapon has a magic bonus to attack, the DC increases by that amount.) You gain a competence bonus to your Reflex save as indicated on the chart. If you succeed, you deflect the blow as a free action. You must be aware of the attack beforehand and not flat*footed. (Having a chance of deflecting one melee attack/round doesn't seem to powerful. Like my suggestion for Defencive strike, it requires the DD to not use Harms way.) Overall I think as long as the DM doesn't let it be used to abusivly (Like two DD PC's protecting each other) I don't think it should be overpowered in 3.5.
maikeru333 05-08-07, 03:19 PM	A friend of mine who is currently gm'ing a game I'm in, suggests part of the problem with devoted defenders is game balance... he's suggesting limited use of the harm's way ability, at least at first, because basically it could allow the devoted defender to 'become' extremely high in defense, not necessarily for a weak character, but perhaps for a power house, so while say a barbarian greatsword wielding warrior is trashing a powerful monster with heedless charge and powerattack, the devoted defender is making them both impossible to hit. He says this has the potential of making many encounters essentially way too easy, or alternately, if the GM compensates to be able to take on this combo with a given encounter, totally overpowering the rest of the party. Something we discussed also, was that the 'charge' being defended may have to spend a move action to help stay behind the devoted defender (or maybe better would be like 'during a move action' so like drawing a weapon, either you spend a move action, or you're already moving, meaning no full attack generally, but you can still do something, like cast a spell, use an item, etc.). This keeps the 'charge' from being too much of a powerhouse. We also discussed the possibility that, for instance, if the protectee were to attack something in melee, ie probably a non-reach weapon, that the protectee would possibly lose the devoted defender's defense against that creature (because the protectee is 'intentionally' moving into position to face the opponent) and/or require another use of harm's way to protect against again, which we were thinking of having a certain number of uses per round, which may or may not be linked to attacks of opportunity. Anyways, comments welcome.
maikeru333 05-08-07, 03:47 PM	alternately, maybe the dd sacrificing all his dodge bonus when 'jumping in front' of an attack, would balance things better. I like the idea of deflect attack and defensive strike having multiple uses per round, as well, probably tied to attacks of opportunity... the dd would probably get bonus attacks of opportunity as levels increase, through the class. I mentioned the idea of something like 'parry' from the neverwinter knights game, where you get an opposed role to beat an attack, and if you beat it by enough, get a counter-attack as well. This would also force the devoted defender to carefully consider how they will balance attack and defense, instead of them just choosing full defense all the time - if they do, counterstrikes are less likely to succeed. I was thinking of a pregression that might involve karmic strike, but evolved to something more advanced - first karmic strike (you or your charge must be hit), then deflect, meaning you can intercept an attack that would hit and stop it, and finally, somewhat like the style of the samurai's dueling strikes, to attack and defend in one motion, deflecting and counter-striking in one action. I think somewhere in there, maybe a 'share ability' thing, where the dd can share his reflex save, and evasion - something like, if you have evasion, you can sack it for the dd and give it to the protectee, if you have imp evasion, you can sack it to evasion for both of you, or imp evasion for just the charge, etc. I think kensai has an ability something like this. maybe giving the dd something like withstand would be cool too. there's lots of cool things to give them, but... there needs to be an associated cost, perhaps. For instance, perhap only being able to 'share' saves which the dd has the associated 'bonus' feat, for. hmm the marshall class has ability enhancement feats, might be a good example to look at for some of these things. hmm maybe some kind of progression where you can choose 'iron will', and dd get +4 res to enchantment/charm etc to resist possesion and domination, lightning reflexes and the ability to share uncanny dodge/ trap sense/ evasion type abilities, or maybe fortitude, and some special ability against poisons, instant death, massive damage, etc - not immune to criticals, but maybe a chance to reduce a critical to normal damage a few times per day/ battle? similar things could be done with other optional feats. maybe taking blind fight would allow blind sense, / to a further distance - or just the ability to deflect attacks that you would otherwise have no way of knowing were coming... quick reconnoiter might be useful for dd's as well - assess the threat of a situation quickly...
maikeru333 05-13-07, 12:56 AM	*bump*
maikeru333 06-02-07, 08:23 AM	my gm is going to make suggestions on what he think would work to allow a dd in his game, maybe i'll post that on here, and people can add their 2 cents when i have it up