Revising the Keeper of the Cerulean Sign [Archive] - Wizards Community

Revising the Keeper of the Cerulean Sign [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ChaoticGood
04-16-07, 12:51 AM I'm running an aberration-heavy campaign in Eberron, and one of my players has expressed an interest in the Keeper of the Cerulean Sign PrC from Lords of Madness. While I like the concept of the class for its direct Lovecraftian influence (i.e.: the Elder Sign), I absolutely detest PrCs that are based on possession of a particular item. As a DM, the temptation to throw Sundering monsters at the player is just too high...

So what I'd like to do, in the spirit of the Lovecraftian original, is make the class's signature sigil a minor ritual that the character must perform at the beginning of combat with an aberration. The monster would then gain some sort of attempt to overcome the power of the sigil created, thus allowing for the occasional "oh no!" moment when the attempt to create a sigil fails. I can see two main methods of doing this, so I'd like to put them forth and see which one gains more support.

In both methods, the Keeper would make a skill check as a standard action (likely choices include Decipher Script, Forgery, or Spellcraft [A.]) to "draw" the sigil, either literally (on a personal item such as a shield), or somatically (to ward a particular person). In the case of anl item, the bonus would apply to the person carrying the item.

The difference between my two methods is in how the DC is determined. - [B.]

Method 1 (the Hit Die Method): In this method, the DC for the skill check would be 10 + the aberration's Hit Dice. For every 3 points by which the roll beats this DC, the character can add an additional +1 to the save bonus granted by the sign. (So if the character rolls a 19 vs. a 3 HD aberration, he gets a +3 bonus vs. that aberration's spells and spell-like abilities.)

Method 2 (the Opposed Roll Method): In this method, the aberration would make a Will save (DC = class level + check result) in order to overcome the sigil's power. In this case, the save bonus is based on class level, with an additional +1 bonus to saves at every odd level.

Either way, this is essentially replacing a constant magic item benefit with a triggerable effect that can target more than one member of the party in the same encounter (assuming multiple successful checks). Thus, it needs to be limited in how often it can be used. I'm thinking either 1/day/class level, or a cumulative -2 penalty to the skill check to each use after the first. Other suggestions are also welcome. - [C.]

So I guess I have these questions:

A. What skill should be used for these checks?
B. Which method of resolution seems more reasonable?
C. Which method of limiting use per day is more reasonable?
D. Since this eliminates the Keeper's need to Craft Wondrous Items, does anyone have an idea for a suitable feat to replace that as a prerequisite?

Thanks in advance for any and all help!
LordArchaon
04-16-07, 08:30 PM You're idea is great but as a lover of Incarnum I just can't help thinking that the best solution would be transforming the Cerulean Sign into a soulmeld.
That the charcater could learn to meld it with the Shape Soulmeld feat and that would replace the Craft feat.
Of course, if you don't own or like Magic of Incarnum, I guss you should ignore this post...
However, I will try this variant myself!
Fabius Maximus
04-17-07, 06:15 AM The Cerulean Sign could always be a tatoo.
Khatoblepas
04-17-07, 10:06 AM But the Cerulean sign is supposed to be sunderable. The whole horror aspect is ruined if you were always protected from the Great Old Ones - hence why the Elder Sigil has to be a physical thing. Think of it as a holy symbol for a cleric. You take that away, mister cleric becomes overrun with undead. You take the elder sigil away, you get eaten by Cthulhu. =P

I'd make the Cerulean Sign a simple, 20gp item that requires invoke the cerulean sign to make. It doesn't give anything more than a +1 luck bonus to saving throws against abberation's natural special attacks. Most elder sigil type things I've seen can be home made, or scrawled on walls.

Don't remove the item altogether. Just make it easier to replace. =) That way, you can have your abberations crush the cerulean sign with their tentacles, and you'll have nothing to fear.
LordArchaon
04-17-07, 08:28 PM But the Cerulean sign is supposed to be sunderable. The whole horror aspect is ruined if you were always protected from the Great Old Ones - hence why the Elder Sigil has to be a physical thing. Think of it as a holy symbol for a cleric. You take that away, mister cleric becomes overrun with undead. You take the elder sigil away, you get eaten by Cthulhu. =P

I'd make the Cerulean Sign a simple, 20gp item that requires invoke the cerulean sign to make. It doesn't give anything more than a +1 luck bonus to saving throws against abberation's natural special attacks. Most elder sigil type things I've seen can be home made, or scrawled on walls.

Don't remove the item altogether. Just make it easier to replace. =) That way, you can have your abberations crush the cerulean sign with their tentacles, and you'll have nothing to fear.

That's a good point.
Well, a soulmeld can be dispelled and it remains so for 24 hours... Even worse!
ChaoticGood
04-17-07, 09:41 PM Hmm... I don't have Magic of Incarnum, but I'm liking the sound of this Soulmeld thing... I'll have to look into that option.

My issue with sundering objects is that a character that is continually targetted for Sundering (and repeatedly has to remake his item just to retain his class abilities) begins to feel like he is being singled out, and that's no good for the DM-player relationship.

Furthermore, I think I really like the opposed roll idea more and more, because it adds far more drama to the encounter if I don't tell the player whether the monster beat the DC or not... :D
ChaoticGood
04-20-07, 12:13 AM :bump:

Nothing, guys?
Nalreth
04-20-07, 12:32 AM I would think that a Craft (illustration) or other similar Craft check could be utilized when creating the sigil, which, by the sound of it, could be made in this fashion:

Scribe Sigil (Su): As a standard action, a Keeper of the Cerulean Sign may attempt to create a magical warding sigil. The sigil is drawn in the air, being scribed in visible force, and when finished, has an AC of 16, 10 Hardness 20 HP. A DC of 10 + the aberration's HD is required to successfully craft the sigil, and for every 5 points higher than the required DC you achieve on your craft check, you gain an additional +1 bonus on the saves and benefits granted by the sigil, and grants an additional 2 points to the hardness of the sigil.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ChaoticGood 04-16-07, 12:51 AM	I'm running an aberration-heavy campaign in Eberron, and one of my players has expressed an interest in the Keeper of the Cerulean Sign PrC from Lords of Madness. While I like the concept of the class for its direct Lovecraftian influence (i.e.: the Elder Sign), I absolutely detest PrCs that are based on possession of a particular item. As a DM, the temptation to throw Sundering monsters at the player is just too high... So what I'd like to do, in the spirit of the Lovecraftian original, is make the class's signature sigil a minor ritual that the character must perform at the beginning of combat with an aberration. The monster would then gain some sort of attempt to overcome the power of the sigil created, thus allowing for the occasional "oh no!" moment when the attempt to create a sigil fails. I can see two main methods of doing this, so I'd like to put them forth and see which one gains more support. In both methods, the Keeper would make a skill check as a standard action (likely choices include Decipher Script, Forgery, or Spellcraft [A.]) to "draw" the sigil, either literally (on a personal item such as a shield), or somatically (to ward a particular person). In the case of anl item, the bonus would apply to the person carrying the item. The difference between my two methods is in how the DC is determined. - [B.] Method 1 (the Hit Die Method): In this method, the DC for the skill check would be 10 + the aberration's Hit Dice. For every 3 points by which the roll beats this DC, the character can add an additional +1 to the save bonus granted by the sign. (So if the character rolls a 19 vs. a 3 HD aberration, he gets a +3 bonus vs. that aberration's spells and spell-like abilities.) Method 2 (the Opposed Roll Method): In this method, the aberration would make a Will save (DC = class level + check result) in order to overcome the sigil's power. In this case, the save bonus is based on class level, with an additional +1 bonus to saves at every odd level. Either way, this is essentially replacing a constant magic item benefit with a triggerable effect that can target more than one member of the party in the same encounter (assuming multiple successful checks). Thus, it needs to be limited in how often it can be used. I'm thinking either 1/day/class level, or a cumulative -2 penalty to the skill check to each use after the first. Other suggestions are also welcome. - [C.] So I guess I have these questions: A. What skill should be used for these checks? B. Which method of resolution seems more reasonable? C. Which method of limiting use per day is more reasonable? D. Since this eliminates the Keeper's need to Craft Wondrous Items, does anyone have an idea for a suitable feat to replace that as a prerequisite? Thanks in advance for any and all help!
LordArchaon 04-16-07, 08:30 PM	You're idea is great but as a lover of Incarnum I just can't help thinking that the best solution would be transforming the Cerulean Sign into a soulmeld. That the charcater could learn to meld it with the Shape Soulmeld feat and that would replace the Craft feat. Of course, if you don't own or like Magic of Incarnum, I guss you should ignore this post... However, I will try this variant myself!
Fabius Maximus 04-17-07, 06:15 AM	The Cerulean Sign could always be a tatoo.
Khatoblepas 04-17-07, 10:06 AM	But the Cerulean sign is supposed to be sunderable. The whole horror aspect is ruined if you were always protected from the Great Old Ones - hence why the Elder Sigil has to be a physical thing. Think of it as a holy symbol for a cleric. You take that away, mister cleric becomes overrun with undead. You take the elder sigil away, you get eaten by Cthulhu. =P I'd make the Cerulean Sign a simple, 20gp item that requires invoke the cerulean sign to make. It doesn't give anything more than a +1 luck bonus to saving throws against abberation's natural special attacks. Most elder sigil type things I've seen can be home made, or scrawled on walls. Don't remove the item altogether. Just make it easier to replace. =) That way, you can have your abberations crush the cerulean sign with their tentacles, and you'll have nothing to fear.
LordArchaon 04-17-07, 08:28 PM	But the Cerulean sign is supposed to be sunderable. The whole horror aspect is ruined if you were always protected from the Great Old Ones - hence why the Elder Sigil has to be a physical thing. Think of it as a holy symbol for a cleric. You take that away, mister cleric becomes overrun with undead. You take the elder sigil away, you get eaten by Cthulhu. =P I'd make the Cerulean Sign a simple, 20gp item that requires invoke the cerulean sign to make. It doesn't give anything more than a +1 luck bonus to saving throws against abberation's natural special attacks. Most elder sigil type things I've seen can be home made, or scrawled on walls. Don't remove the item altogether. Just make it easier to replace. =) That way, you can have your abberations crush the cerulean sign with their tentacles, and you'll have nothing to fear. That's a good point. Well, a soulmeld can be dispelled and it remains so for 24 hours... Even worse!
ChaoticGood 04-17-07, 09:41 PM	Hmm... I don't have Magic of Incarnum, but I'm liking the sound of this Soulmeld thing... I'll have to look into that option. My issue with sundering objects is that a character that is continually targetted for Sundering (and repeatedly has to remake his item just to retain his class abilities) begins to feel like he is being singled out, and that's no good for the DM-player relationship. Furthermore, I think I really like the opposed roll idea more and more, because it adds far more drama to the encounter if I don't tell the player whether the monster beat the DC or not... :D
ChaoticGood 04-20-07, 12:13 AM	:bump: Nothing, guys?
Nalreth 04-20-07, 12:32 AM	I would think that a Craft (illustration) or other similar Craft check could be utilized when creating the sigil, which, by the sound of it, could be made in this fashion: Scribe Sigil (Su): As a standard action, a Keeper of the Cerulean Sign may attempt to create a magical warding sigil. The sigil is drawn in the air, being scribed in visible force, and when finished, has an AC of 16, 10 Hardness 20 HP. A DC of 10 + the aberration's HD is required to successfully craft the sigil, and for every 5 points higher than the required DC you achieve on your craft check, you gain an additional +1 bonus on the saves and benefits granted by the sigil, and grants an additional 2 points to the hardness of the sigil.