Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pukunui 12-08-07, 09:38 PM	Hi all, I used to have a thread about the shadowdancer PrC here but it seems to have totally disappeared (I can't even seem to find it in the archives). Oh well. What I wanted to know was whether people think it would be all right to allow a 2nd level shadowdancer's evasion to stack with evasion granted from rogue levels (that is to say, a rogue/shadowdancer who takes his 2nd level of the PrC would get improved evasion as well as darkvision and improved uncanny dodge). One of my players is about to roll up a halfling rogue 7 / shadowdancer 2. He says he's only going to take those first two levels of the PrC. It seems a well-established fact that the shadowdancer is not as cool as it should be, so I thought it would be fair enough to let evasion stack (it's always seemed odd to me that uncanny dodge stacks but evasion doesn't ...). Also, I'm sure there's another PrC from somewhere (maybe the thief acrobat or something) that does allow evasion to stack, so it's not unprecedented. What do you all think? Thanks, Jonathan
dman11235 12-08-07, 10:34 PM	A rogue 7/SD 2 with have evasion from two sources. Nothing more. You are the DM however and can change it if you want. Also, there are many other cases where you do not gain improved evasion if you gain evasion. Look at monk 2/rogue 2. Not even uncanny dodge "stacks". Remember, it's not a nuerical thing that can stack. It's merely a better version. It will only "stack" if it says so.
pukunui 12-08-07, 10:43 PM	A rogue 7/SD 2 with have evasion from two sources. Nothing more.Yes, I know. What I'm asking is whether it's fair/balanced/whatever to allow them to "stack" in the sense that getting evasion a second time would instead grant him improved evasion in the way that gaining uncanny dodge from a second source generally gives you improved uncanny dodge instead. Also, there are many other cases where you do not gain improved evasion if you gain evasion. Look at monk 2/rogue 2.Yes, but I'm pretty sure there are some cases where you do. Not even uncanny dodge "stacks". Remember, it's not a nuerical thing that can stack. It's merely a better version. It will only "stack" if it says so.Sorry, I'm using the word "stack" in a different sense from the one used when referring to bonuses and things. What I meant was merely that in an instance where you get the same ability from two different sources, they "stack" to give you the improved version instead. And, as I said, I've never really understood why evasion doesn't ordinarily do this while uncanny dodge does.
dman11235 12-08-07, 10:59 PM	Uncanny dodge doesn't do this. It specifically says when you will get improved uncanny dodge instead of regular again. I think it would be fine in the case of the shadow dancer (it will never come in to play anyway, he'll have a high reflex save).
StevenO 12-08-07, 11:09 PM	It may not be RAW but I give it a definte yes to stacking. So many similiar (Rogue friendly) PrCs first published after the Shadowdancer have the text that says if you already have evasion you gain improved evasion that it should be a given to me. While I would not allow base class Evasion (or any Evasion from magic items) to stack into Improved Evasion I think it should be a feature for any evasion granting PrC. If nothing else granting Improved Evasion should make the DMs job easier because they can more consistently count on that character taking less damage instead of watching them ignore damage most of the time with their great Reflex save but then get killed the few time the save fails.
pukunui 12-08-07, 11:11 PM	Uncanny dodge doesn't do this. It specifically says when you will get improved uncanny dodge instead of regular again.Yes, I know. And what I'm saying is that in almost every instance where you might possibly get uncanny dodge twice, it specifically says that you will get improved uncanny dodge instead. On the other hand, you hardly ever see this with evasion. I think it would be fine in the case of the shadow dancer (it will never come in to play anyway, he'll have a high reflex save).Thank you. Yes, at 9th level with 21 DEX his Reflex save modifier is already +14. :rolleyes: It may not be RAW but I give it a definte yes to stacking. So many similiar (Rogue friendly) PrCs first published after the Shadowdancer have the text that says if you already have evasion you gain improved evasion that it should be a given to me.I thought so. Thanks for backing me up. While I would not allow base class Evasion (or any Evasion from magic items) to stack into Improved Evasion I think it should be a feature for any evasion granting PrC. If nothing else granting Improved Evasion should make the DMs job easier because they can more consistently count on that character taking less damage instead of watching them ignore damage most of the time with their great Reflex save but then get killed the few time the save fails.I agree. Thanks!
KIDS 12-09-07, 10:21 AM	I'd recommend leaving it as normal Evasion despite "stacking" but I'd let the player switch out his Evasion from Rogue 2 to "Spell Reflect" from Complete Mage alternate class feature. That would seem a fair bargain...
pukunui 12-09-07, 02:14 PM	I'd recommend leaving it as normal Evasion despite "stacking" but I'd let the player switch out his Evasion from Rogue 2 to "Spell Reflect" from Complete Mage alternate class feature. That would seem a fair bargain... Any particular reason why you would leave Evasion as it is?
KIDS 12-09-07, 02:21 PM	Really no particular reason, just because of the already set way it works. If you allow that, you could get cries for stacking 2x poison use, 2x camouflage or such things - which is not a bad thing in itself, but might not be the counter-effort that you're looking for. In any case, I didn't mean unbalanced or anything. It's up to you.
pukunui 12-09-07, 02:29 PM	Really no particular reason, just because of the already set way it works. If you allow that, you could get cries for stacking 2x poison use, 2x camouflage or such things - which is not a bad thing in itself, but might not be the counter-effort that you're looking for. In any case, I didn't mean unbalanced or anything. It's up to you. OK. Since none of my players are powergamers, I don't think I need to worry about that sort of thing. Besides, I've always sort of viewed evasion and uncanny dodge as being similar, since both have an improved version (whereas poison use and camouflage don't really ...) ... but when is generally said to "stack" while the other is not. It's also one of my main beefs with the shadowdancer class that everything points to it being built with a rogue in mind and yet the rogue class actually benefits from it the least, primarily because it duplicates so many of the rogue's abilities and doesn't build on them (like getting evasion a second time not giving you improved evasion instead). And as StevenO pointed out, there have been numerous rogueish PrCs since the DMG 3.5 came out that do bump a duplicate evasion up to improved evasion that it seems fair to do it here. I think my players will understand that this is a specific change. Sure, there's the possibility that they'll ask for other exceptions to be made, but that doesn't mean I'll grant them ...
dman11235 12-09-07, 02:54 PM	Also there is to consider that they do get improved evasion and that it is more of a ranger PrC than a rogue one.
Darth Sephiroth 12-09-07, 03:07 PM	Another option would be to grant one of the alternate features that Evasion can be exchanged for from the various books. There ought to be one or two that look workable.
pukunui 12-09-07, 04:27 PM	Also there is to consider that they do get improved evasion and that it is more of a ranger PrC than a rogue one. Yes, a ranger benefits from it far more than a rogue does, but the flavor text does not say "ranger" to me at all. I think the shadowdancer is a prime example of the 3.5 "flavor and mechanics not working together" design flaw that WotC appears to be fixing with 4th edition. Take for example the shadowdancer's prerequisite of 5 ranks in Perform (dance)? What is the point of that? None of the shadowdancer's abilities actually use it. There's nothing to suggest that there's any kind of dancing involved other than that prerequisite and the fact that "dancer" is in the PrC's name. I think it would've been way cooler if there actually was some kind of dancing ability. As it is, it's only implied (that is to say, if you want to actually be a shadowdancer, you have to describe your character as doing dancing whenever s/he uses her abilities, but there's no actual in-game effect related to the dancing ...). Anyway, I could go on and on so I'll stop now.
StevenO 12-09-07, 04:46 PM	... It's also one of my main beefs with the shadowdancer class that everything points to it being built with a rogue in mind and yet the rogue class actually benefits from it the least, primarily because it duplicates so many of the rogue's abilities and doesn't build on them (like getting evasion a second time not giving you improved evasion instead). And as StevenO pointed out, there have been numerous rogueish PrCs since the DMG 3.5 came out that do bump a duplicate evasion up to improved evasion that it seems fair to do it here. ... Actually I'm talking about all the PrCs that have come out since Shadowdancer appeared in the 3.0 DMG. Granted the PrCs with stacking language are newer than the 3.5 DMG (and I haven't studied 3.0 PrCs that much) it still seems to be the way of the future. Others have mentioned swapping out Evasion for an alternate class feature so you can avoid "doubling up" which may be perfectly legal but isn't changing the second copy of Evasion to Improved Evasion really just the same thing? I'd actually say switching to IE may be weaker overall than some of the other options because all IE does is patch a small hole left by Evasion while some of the other alternatives offer completely new abilities.
Broken vacuum 12-10-07, 11:18 AM	I cannot say that I think it a good idea to make the Shadowdancer evasion ability count as improved evasion like that. The thing is that even if you do find the Shadowdancer PrC underpowered, the problem certainly does not lie in the first two levels. In these two levels Hide in plain sight, evasion, darkvision and uncanny dodge (that does stack) are gained. The only thing the rogue does not benefit from is the evasion and the abilities are very useful to a stealthy character. I also have to wonder why you think this necessary. Since the player has declared his intention of only taking two levels of Shadowdancer he is hardly picking the class because he wants his character to be a Shadowdancer, but in all probability because he likes the abilities those two levels provide. In other words your player does not really have a problem with how things are. It does not really make much sense to change something in the levels the players intends to take in order to fix something in the levels he will never take. As a final note I will say that some seem to underestimate Improved Evasion. The ability halves the expected damage taken, which, for a majority of characters with it, is a smaller total amount of HP over a career than what ordinary Evasion saves them, but the important thing is that it works when they absolutely need it to, namely when they do not make their saves and would take a potential lethal amount of damage. Ordinary Evasion is great until you fail your save, but at that point it does not help at all. And though a character can virtually always walk away from half damage from a level appropriate attack, full damage is a lot less certain as the ability tend to be given to characters with slightly less than stellar HD.
StevenO 12-10-07, 02:45 PM	... As a final note I will say that some seem to underestimate Improved Evasion. The ability halves the expected damage taken, which, for a majority of characters with it, is a smaller total amount of HP over a career than what ordinary Evasion saves them, but the important thing is that it works when they absolutely need it to, namely when they do not make their saves and would take a potential lethal amount of damage. Ordinary Evasion is great until you fail your save, but at that point it does not help at all. And though a character can virtually always walk away from half damage from a level appropriate attack, full damage is a lot less certain as the ability tend to be given to characters with slightly less than stellar HD. I don't know if anyone really under estimates the value of Improved Evasion but with a character who'd gain evasion from two sources its "value" is really in making things more consistent. I've done the figures in some other threads but the damage "savings" from IE over standard Evasion isn't that much for a character who makes most of their reflex saves which should include most characters who'd have a potential "stacking" problem. Conversely a character with poor reflex saves gains a great deal from Improved Evasion but such a character is unlikely to get Evasion from two classes. Here is a breakdown. Situation: Hit by a Maximized Fireball (60 damage) Character who makes 85% of Reflex Saves on average takes, Without any evasion - 35 points of damage (57.5% max) With just Evasion - 9 points of damage (15%) With Improved Evasion - 5 points of damage (7.5%) Character who makes 50% of Reflex Save takes, Without any evasion - 45 points of damage (75%) With just Evasion - 30 points of damage (50%) With Improved Evasion - 15 points of damage (25%) Character who makes 25% of Reflex Save takes, Without any evasion - 53 points of damage (87.5%) With just Evasion - 45 points of damage (75%) With Improved Evasion - 23 points of damage (37.5%) While the value of Evasion goes up with Reflex save that increase also decreases the relative value of Improved Evasion. A character who'd have to worry about getting Evasion from two classes should have that higher Reflex save to begin with. Now if a DM HATES Evasion to begin with and compensates by throwing virtually unbeatable DCs at the character (such that a relatively Average save has only a 5% chance of making) just to get damage through regularly will dislike making IE more readily avialable. As a DM I'd prefer to think IE makes planning easier unless you actually WANT to kill PCs; hit the party with a powerful fireball like effect you can expect some to survive because of good hp and others with spell enhanced resistance but those are pretty reliable compared to the poor rogue who you figure will be unharmed (and ready for the follow up) but ends up dead because of one missed save.
pukunui 12-10-07, 03:37 PM	The way I see it is that while a straight rogue could get improved evasion at 10th level, a rogue/shadowdancer wouldn't get it until much later. What's the harm in letting it stack so he can get it a wee bit early at level 9 instead? There's nothing terribly exciting about the shadowdancer class that, in my opinion, makes it worth putting off getting improved evasion ... Also, this is undoubtedly the only time anyone in my campaign will play a shadowdancer because we'll be switching to 4th edition as soon as it comes out (unless, of course, it has some really horrible things in it that they just haven't told us about yet ...). Even if there's a shadowdancer-like thing in 4e, it won't be exactly the same (in fact, hopefully it will be better), so I don't really see it as a problem to tweak it slightly. I'm a powergamer at heart. My players have already had too many PCs die because the campaign I'm running is very tough (Red Hand of Doom) and I think a little thing like improved evasion might actually help keep at least one of them alive longer ...
Grod_The_Giant 12-10-07, 08:05 PM	meh. I think its OK to let them stack. Incidentally, I came up with a similar base class. I'll post a link when I get back on my own computer.
pukunui 12-11-07, 01:11 AM	meh. I think its OK to let them stack. Incidentally, I came up with a similar base class. I'll post a link when I get back on my own computer. Cool. Thanks. The majority of the posters here seem to think it's ok. RE: the similar base class, do you mean you've made up a 20-level shadowdancer or something? I'd like to see that.
Broken vacuum 12-11-07, 08:34 AM	I don't know if anyone really under estimates the value of Improved Evasion but with a character who'd gain evasion from two sources its "value" is really in making things more consistent. I've done the figures in some other threads but the damage "savings" from IE over standard Evasion isn't that much for a character who makes most of their reflex saves which should include most characters who'd have a potential "stacking" problem. Conversely a character with poor reflex saves gains a great deal from Improved Evasion but such a character is unlikely to get Evasion from two classes. Here is a breakdown. Situation: Hit by a Maximized Fireball (60 damage) Character who makes 85% of Reflex Saves on average takes, Without any evasion - 35 points of damage (57.5% max) With just Evasion - 9 points of damage (15%) With Improved Evasion - 5 points of damage (7.5%) Character who makes 50% of Reflex Save takes, Without any evasion - 45 points of damage (75%) With just Evasion - 30 points of damage (50%) With Improved Evasion - 15 points of damage (25%) Character who makes 25% of Reflex Save takes, Without any evasion - 53 points of damage (87.5%) With just Evasion - 45 points of damage (75%) With Improved Evasion - 23 points of damage (37.5%) While the value of Evasion goes up with Reflex save that increase also decreases the relative value of Improved Evasion. A character who'd have to worry about getting Evasion from two classes should have that higher Reflex save to begin with. I think you lost yourself in the numbers and forgot my point. As I stated Improved Evasion halves the expected damage you receive after factoring in Evasion, which amounts to less total HP savings over a career, but these savings are distributed in quite another fashion as they are relevant when you need them the most. With Evasion you either take full damage or none. That is the seemingly often forgotten reality beyond the statistically very appropriate method of spreading damage taken over all saving throws. While Evasion saves you more HP over a career it fails spectacularly when it does fail. And everyone can expect to fail at least 5% of their saving throws. Quite frankly, the reduction from full to half damage is a lot more important than the reduction from half to none in most instances. As Evasion usually does kick in more often, the field is evened out, but Improved Evasion is certainly not reduced to insignificance. Now if a DM HATES Evasion to begin with and compensates by throwing virtually unbeatable DCs at the character (such that a relatively Average save has only a 5% chance of making) just to get damage through regularly will dislike making IE more readily avialable. As a DM I'd prefer to think IE makes planning easier unless you actually WANT to kill PCs; hit the party with a powerful fireball like effect you can expect some to survive because of good hp and others with spell enhanced resistance but those are pretty reliable compared to the poor rogue who you figure will be unharmed (and ready for the follow up) but ends up dead because of one missed save. I think your view of saving throws is a bit skewed. Take that Rogue 7/Shadowdancer 2 as an example. Base save is +8 as opposed to +3 for a single classed character with a bad reflex save. Let us further assume that the rogue/shadowdancer has a dexterity score 6 points higher than the single-classed character. The total difference is 8 or 40%. This means that in your above example the character with the bad save would make 45% of its saves, which is not bad by any means. I realise playing experiences differ, but I cannot say that I would find it especially draconian or even unusual to be be in situations where my character is exposed to a mite higher DCs. And then, of course, there is the fact that the attacks with higher DC also tend to be those that deal a greater amount of damage. Take a look at the DCs and damage of dragon breath to see what I mean. And then start thinking what a dragon could do with all those feats it has, the magic it has access to and so on. Even a dragon not really interested in its breath weapon can be counted on to like the idea of a constitution buff. Between Bull's Strength and Ability Focus the DC starts looking not so easy. If you go non-core it quickly gets a lot worse. The point here is that Improved Evasion is a rather good ability that has a quite different impact than ordinary Evasion and giving it out for free should only happen after careful consideration, not as a result of an erroneous assumption that it is just a minor improvement to the latter. The way I see it is that while a straight rogue could get improved evasion at 10th level, a rogue/shadowdancer wouldn't get it until much later. What's the harm in letting it stack so he can get it a wee bit early at level 9 instead? There's nothing terribly exciting about the shadowdancer class that, in my opinion, makes it worth putting off getting improved evasion ... Look, you are the DM and can do whatever you please. If you say that giving the character Improved Evasion will not unbalance things, I will assume that you know what you are talking about. My problem is that you are rationalising it with all the wrong arguments. A character receiving Improved Evasion at these levels is not unbalancing in itself (Monks receive it at that level), but that is not the only thing the character receives from those two levels. The first two levels of Shadowdancer are very good. If the Shadowdancer has a power-deficiency it is not in those levels but later, so since the player does not intend to take any more levels of it, changes for power-reasons are not warranted by the class mechanics itself. Even if the player wanted to continue on in the class, warranted changes should happen in the the levels that are a problem. Also, this is undoubtedly the only time anyone in my campaign will play a shadowdancer because we'll be switching to 4th edition as soon as it comes out (unless, of course, it has some really horrible things in it that they just haven't told us about yet ...). Even if there's a shadowdancer-like thing in 4e, it won't be exactly the same (in fact, hopefully it will be better), so I don't really see it as a problem to tweak it slightly. In a similar vein, this is in no shape or form a good argument for letting evasion stack for the Shadowdancer. I'm a powergamer at heart. My players have already had too many PCs die because the campaign I'm running is very tough (Red Hand of Doom) and I think a little thing like improved evasion might actually help keep at least one of them alive longer ... Again, you are the DM and can do whatever you want. If you feel the characters are too weak and want to grant them a bonus in order to help, that is fine, but do not try to fool yourself that you are just fixing a PrC that needs it. What you are doing is really no different from granting a tank a +2 bonus to AC out of the blue. If you think it is needed, go for it, but fooling yourself into believing the problem lies in the PrC instead of in the power-difference between your way of DMing and your players' way of playing is not the best of ideas.
Broken vacuum 12-11-07, 08:39 AM	Double post.
StevenO 12-11-07, 02:19 PM	One may not like my numbers or arguement but I don't think stacking Evasion into Improved Evasion is any more powerful that substituting an instance of Evasion with some other property. While I can agree that it is a powerful tool I think the value of IE as a DM's tool is being overlooked. Failing a Reflex save hurts. This is infinitely more true when the character missing that save has Evasion but even Improved Evasion doesn't change the fact that the missed save still hurts. Improved Evasion promotes consistency which should promote better gaming. IE may mute the pain of missing a save but the save is still missed and still hurts, perhaps not as much as without IE but it is easier to plan for the future when that failed save is less Save or Die. As I say way up in my first post the RAW doesn't permit stacking. This I don't agrue with that but because of some of the other PrCs I believe that stacking Evasion could be intended and from my understanding of the game it shouldn't be overpowering.
pukunui 12-11-07, 02:44 PM	To broken_vacuum, You misunderstand me. If I could find my old shadowdancer thread, you'd see that I've already discussed ad nauseum what is wrong/ok with the shadowdancer PrC. I didn't feel like going over all the old arguments again, so in this instance, I just wanted to see what people thought about allowing the 2nd level shadowdancer's evasion to become improved evasion instead. I realize the arguments I gave above weren't very good ones but as I said, I didn't feel like going over the entire class as a whole. All I was pointing out was that this would most likely be a unique exception. I haven't even decided for sure that I'm going to do it yet. I'm still just thinking about it.
Legdiwena 12-11-07, 06:12 PM	Perform (dance) makes sense, considering the class is called shadowdancer.
pukunui 12-11-07, 06:31 PM	Perform (dance) makes sense, considering the class is called shadowdancer. Yes. If you read post #13, you'll see that I'm already aware of this. My response is still that, despite the name or the requirement, you don't ever actually have to use Perform (dance), so it's just a "fluff" thing. And it's not even a very consistent one. If they'd put some fluffy descriptions about incorporating dancing into the activation of your abilities, that would be cool. But there's really nothing besides the name and the skill requirement. Since WotC is trying to tie mechanics and fluff more closely together in 4e, I hope that if there's ever some sort of shadowdancer paragon path or epic destiny, that they get it right and make it so there's actually some dancing involved in the mechanics. Otherwise it'll just remain a great idea with a poor execution.