Shadowdancer tweak... necessary? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Shadowdancer tweak... necessary? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
GhostSound
11-08-07, 12:18 AM Hi guys.

I'm starting a new campaign soon, and one of my players expressed interest in the Shadowdancer class. I haven't looked at the original DMG PrCs in a long time, so I just sat down and glanced at it again.

... And it just doesn't seem worthwhile. A wand of Invis trumps Hide in Plain Sight, a wand of Silent Image trumps Shadow Image. Presumably the character will already have Evasion and Uncanny Dodge. Shadow Jump's pretty cool, as are the shadow buddies. Darkvision is always nice. But she'd be sacrificing Sneak Attack progression for this?

I'm honestly just thinking about tacking on Sneak Attack progression to it, with perhaps a tweak or two to compensate. Even that wouldn't seem too overpowered in my mind. What do you guys think?
Cainin
11-08-07, 09:32 AM It really depends on the character that's set up for going into the class. Slapping a couple Shadowdancer levels on a Ranger, or some other suitably sneaky character, is amazing. The same would go for slapping it on a caster who has Hide & Move Silent as class skills. (That is, assuming they find a -2 caster level loss acceptable.)

Yet for a Rogue, only the 1st level benefits have any real draw. Attacking while staying hidden and not having to rely on other resources is rather good.

Having said all of this, the class as a whole is something of a joke in my gaming circle. The only really benefits of going pure Shadowdancer are the Shadow Jump and shadow minion class features. While both have some use, they aren't enough of a pull to make continuing in the class really worth it. Heck, the Shadow Companion is really only good in low magic games where the opposition aren't always guaranteed to have magic weapons.

Adding Sneak Attack would make the class more viable. Perhaps +1d6 at 1st level and an additional +1d6 every +3 levels afterwards. (1st, 4th, 7th, 10th)
GhostSound
11-08-07, 04:49 PM Thanks for the reply, Cainin. Yep, she's going with a Rogue build. It's her first time, so I'd hate to say 'no' since she loves the flavour of it, and I'd also hate to have her playing someone that would fall behind everyone in the mid levels.

The slightly stunted Sneak Attack progression is a great idea. The Shadowdancers abilities overall aren't great, but I agree simply tacking on full SA prog would be a bit much.
strenoth
11-09-07, 01:14 AM Also.. maybe make the shadow just go farther?

and intead of SA, what about borrowing from the book of 9 swords? Say, a shadow hand stance at levels 1, 5, and 10. get a shadow hand manuever known/readied at levels 1,3,5,7,9, so after 10 levels, 3 stances, and 5 manuevers. One of the stances gives you a small SA progression if I recall correctly, and it stacks with normal SA.

just an idea. *is a ToB fan-boy*
Darryl_Licke
11-09-07, 02:29 PM I'm currently doing a shadow dancer build so I can provide some input...

Hi guys.

I'm starting a new campaign soon, and one of my players expressed interest in the Shadowdancer class. I haven't looked at the original DMG PrCs in a long time, so I just sat down and glanced at it again.

... And it just doesn't seem worthwhile. A wand of Invis trumps Hide in Plain Sight, a wand of Silent Image trumps Shadow Image. Presumably the character will already have Evasion and Uncanny Dodge. Shadow Jump's pretty cool, as are the shadow buddies. Darkvision is always nice. But she'd be sacrificing Sneak Attack progression for this?

My DM values realism and steers from the video game approach of playing meaning everything isn't available and infinite resources are not available either, you work with what you have. Now I'm a bit of a newbie but this makes sense to me as I would not want to approach this "choose your own adventure" campaign any other way. That said I had a concept for my character and I'm sticking to it. I'm not trying to build the most powerful character ever. I'm fitting a role with a bit of flair and flavor.

In time yes I will be able to afford the wands and by then they will be a neccesity in some cases but there will always be alternatives.

My shadowdancer has always been geared towards the hide skill. It's to the point that once he did take the class SD he was close to +40 on his hide checks...in effect...he can disappear in some circumstances which as a rogue is great because it helps my sneak attack oppurtunities. And personally there is somethng to be said about something you can do innately versus having a wand do ti for you. if you want wands why not just go mage.

As for the SA progression I think it's balanced. As a PrC it's a specific flavor for the rogue. Like you said it could be done with UMD and wands but does the rogue want to wait and cast spells or just get into the action. I'm not sure of the complete make up of the party but if this player is looking to be the main damage supplier I would suggest another class as rogues can only deal damage akin to a fighter under certain circumstances.

I'm honestly just thinking about tacking on Sneak Attack progression to it, with perhaps a tweak or two to compensate. Even that wouldn't seem too overpowered in my mind. What do you guys think?

I would think that would unbalance the class because from a realism stand point...if you are focusing on your efforts to learn the ways of hte shadow do you have time to train your SA?

I don't know how your game is run but I prefer flavor to firepower. I will never catch our tank but in time I will be able to hide, shadowjump, hide again and then once in position hit twice for a total of 10d6 sneak damage, and get out without a scratch. I'll also be indisposable in dungeons.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GhostSound 11-08-07, 12:18 AM	Hi guys. I'm starting a new campaign soon, and one of my players expressed interest in the Shadowdancer class. I haven't looked at the original DMG PrCs in a long time, so I just sat down and glanced at it again. ... And it just doesn't seem worthwhile. A wand of Invis trumps Hide in Plain Sight, a wand of Silent Image trumps Shadow Image. Presumably the character will already have Evasion and Uncanny Dodge. Shadow Jump's pretty cool, as are the shadow buddies. Darkvision is always nice. But she'd be sacrificing Sneak Attack progression for this? I'm honestly just thinking about tacking on Sneak Attack progression to it, with perhaps a tweak or two to compensate. Even that wouldn't seem too overpowered in my mind. What do you guys think?
Cainin 11-08-07, 09:32 AM	It really depends on the character that's set up for going into the class. Slapping a couple Shadowdancer levels on a Ranger, or some other suitably sneaky character, is amazing. The same would go for slapping it on a caster who has Hide & Move Silent as class skills. (That is, assuming they find a -2 caster level loss acceptable.) Yet for a Rogue, only the 1st level benefits have any real draw. Attacking while staying hidden and not having to rely on other resources is rather good. Having said all of this, the class as a whole is something of a joke in my gaming circle. The only really benefits of going pure Shadowdancer are the Shadow Jump and shadow minion class features. While both have some use, they aren't enough of a pull to make continuing in the class really worth it. Heck, the Shadow Companion is really only good in low magic games where the opposition aren't always guaranteed to have magic weapons. Adding Sneak Attack would make the class more viable. Perhaps +1d6 at 1st level and an additional +1d6 every +3 levels afterwards. (1st, 4th, 7th, 10th)
GhostSound 11-08-07, 04:49 PM	Thanks for the reply, Cainin. Yep, she's going with a Rogue build. It's her first time, so I'd hate to say 'no' since she loves the flavour of it, and I'd also hate to have her playing someone that would fall behind everyone in the mid levels. The slightly stunted Sneak Attack progression is a great idea. The Shadowdancers abilities overall aren't great, but I agree simply tacking on full SA prog would be a bit much.
strenoth 11-09-07, 01:14 AM	Also.. maybe make the shadow just go farther? and intead of SA, what about borrowing from the book of 9 swords? Say, a shadow hand stance at levels 1, 5, and 10. get a shadow hand manuever known/readied at levels 1,3,5,7,9, so after 10 levels, 3 stances, and 5 manuevers. One of the stances gives you a small SA progression if I recall correctly, and it stacks with normal SA. just an idea. is a ToB fan-boy
Darryl_Licke 11-09-07, 02:29 PM	I'm currently doing a shadow dancer build so I can provide some input... Hi guys. I'm starting a new campaign soon, and one of my players expressed interest in the Shadowdancer class. I haven't looked at the original DMG PrCs in a long time, so I just sat down and glanced at it again. ... And it just doesn't seem worthwhile. A wand of Invis trumps Hide in Plain Sight, a wand of Silent Image trumps Shadow Image. Presumably the character will already have Evasion and Uncanny Dodge. Shadow Jump's pretty cool, as are the shadow buddies. Darkvision is always nice. But she'd be sacrificing Sneak Attack progression for this? My DM values realism and steers from the video game approach of playing meaning everything isn't available and infinite resources are not available either, you work with what you have. Now I'm a bit of a newbie but this makes sense to me as I would not want to approach this "choose your own adventure" campaign any other way. That said I had a concept for my character and I'm sticking to it. I'm not trying to build the most powerful character ever. I'm fitting a role with a bit of flair and flavor. In time yes I will be able to afford the wands and by then they will be a neccesity in some cases but there will always be alternatives. My shadowdancer has always been geared towards the hide skill. It's to the point that once he did take the class SD he was close to +40 on his hide checks...in effect...he can disappear in some circumstances which as a rogue is great because it helps my sneak attack oppurtunities. And personally there is somethng to be said about something you can do innately versus having a wand do ti for you. if you want wands why not just go mage. As for the SA progression I think it's balanced. As a PrC it's a specific flavor for the rogue. Like you said it could be done with UMD and wands but does the rogue want to wait and cast spells or just get into the action. I'm not sure of the complete make up of the party but if this player is looking to be the main damage supplier I would suggest another class as rogues can only deal damage akin to a fighter under certain circumstances. I'm honestly just thinking about tacking on Sneak Attack progression to it, with perhaps a tweak or two to compensate. Even that wouldn't seem too overpowered in my mind. What do you guys think? I would think that would unbalance the class because from a realism stand point...if you are focusing on your efforts to learn the ways of hte shadow do you have time to train your SA? I don't know how your game is run but I prefer flavor to firepower. I will never catch our tank but in time I will be able to hide, shadowjump, hide again and then once in position hit twice for a total of 10d6 sneak damage, and get out without a scratch. I'll also be indisposable in dungeons.