Shadowdancers with permanent shadows... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Shadowdancers with permanent shadows... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dracomortis
02-07-07, 02:20 PM Recently, I ran an underground campaign, and came upon an interesting question: a shadowdancer can hide in plain sight so long as she is within 5 feet of a shadow. Underground, there is no natural light, so theoretically everything is in constant shadows. By RAW, it would seem that a shadowdancer is more or less permanently hidden while underground. Now, obviously, I've houseruled that this isn't the case and that a shadowdancer can only hide where there would be a shadow if they were above ground, otherwise my player's rogue/shadowdancer would kill everything in a matter of rounds. However, does anyone know whether or not this is how the RAW works for shadowdancers? It seems to me like the designers didn't think about underground campaigns when they designed them.

On a related note, the whole hide in plain sight mechanics are little odd to begin with. I could carry around a small pebble, drop it on the ground and voila, instant shadow to hide in. Would it be reasonable to houserule that a given shadow must be large enough for the shadowdancer to actually hide in (a Medium shadowdancer requires a shadow roughly 5 feet square, for example)?
Nibbler
02-07-07, 02:39 PM A character has to be actively trying to hide. If he attacks or is concentrating on disabling a device, etc., he is no longer hiding and can bee seen (of note, only by creatures with darkvision if there is no light). This being said, Hide in Plain Sight is a great ability for an underground campaign. Yes, it's all shadow down there.
The_Shaman
02-07-07, 05:39 PM Hm, I thought that was about the shadow companions. Anyway, can we say that there is a shadow when there isn't light to create it? Perhaps it's best if the party's carrying a light source for that reason.

One more thing: has anyone played a shadowdancer 10, and what's their opinion of the shadow companion? I saw some version with more than one - that, and if they didn't take XP when dismissed/killed, sounds more playable to me. As it is the shadowdancer is a bit weak offensively imo.
Xeonas
02-07-07, 08:18 PM The text for Hide in Plain Sight already says that the shadow must be big enough for him to hide in.
Dracomortis
02-08-07, 03:39 PM A character has to be actively trying to hide. If he attacks or is concentrating on disabling a device, etc., he is no longer hiding and can bee seen (of note, only by creatures with darkvision if there is no light). This being said, Hide in Plain Sight is a great ability for an underground campaign. Yes, it's all shadow down there.
Yeah, but my concern stems from the fact that if they attack from hiding, the rogue/shadowdancer gets his sneak attack damage. Then, next round, he takes a move action to hide and attacks again, dealing sneak attack damage once again, and so on.

Hm, I thought that was about the shadow companions. Anyway, can we say that there is a shadow when there isn't light to create it? Perhaps it's best if the party's carrying a light source for that reason.

One more thing: has anyone played a shadowdancer 10, and what's their opinion of the shadow companion? I saw some version with more than one - that, and if they didn't take XP when dismissed/killed, sounds more playable to me. As it is the shadowdancer is a bit weak offensively imo.
My friend made a similar point. However, a shadow is simply an area where light does not fall. Therefore, underground is in total shadows, because light does not reach it. As for multiple companions...I'd probably allow it, but have each additional shadow receive bonus Hit Dice and such as if the shadowdancer were of a lower level - for example, the second shadow receives bonuses as if the shadowdancer were 2 levels lower, the third shadow receives them as if 4 levels lower, etc. Losing XP when they die isn't really a big deal, since the self-correcting system ensures you'll catch back up with your party members.

The text for Hide in Plain Sight already says that the shadow must be big enough for him to hide in.
Well, guess that settles that one.
mittenninja
02-08-07, 03:46 PM Yeah, but my concern stems from the fact that if they attack from hiding, the rogue/shadowdancer gets his sneak attack damage. Then, next round, he takes a move action to hide and attacks again, dealing sneak attack damage once again, and so on.

Thats not any different from a full rogue with the improved feint feat. In fact, it's exactly the same except just replace hide opposed by spot with bluff opposed by sense motive, and it doesnt even require any shadows.
Dracomortis
02-08-07, 04:36 PM Thats not any different from a full rogue with the improved feint feat. In fact, it's exactly the same except just replace hide opposed by spot with bluff opposed by sense motive, and it doesnt even require any shadows.
Huh. True enough I suppose. Alright then, I guess that answers all of my questions. Thanks guys.
mittenninja
02-09-07, 03:28 AM you're welcome :)
RealMad
02-14-07, 10:59 AM One more thing: has anyone played a shadowdancer 10, and what's their opinion of the shadow companion? I saw some version with more than one - that, and if they didn't take XP when dismissed/killed, sounds more playable to me. As it is the shadowdancer is a bit weak offensively imo.

I played SDancer 10 but felt I went too far. The shadow companions are fun. Normally I just used them as reconnaisance and for the really dangerous battles. Mostly I just ordered them into the walls in those cases.

I didn't really play a ShadowDancer for battle. I often ended up playing solo, in fact, as I would sneak into buildings and open the door for the rest of the party.

The kick really in playing a Shadow Dancer is in evasion and hiding. Sneaking past whole groups or disappearing right in front of someone. You'll do your share of SA damage, of course, and hold your own in a fight but I found that I was most in my element outside of out and out combat.

If I had to do it again, I'd only go to six if I really wanted to be a dancer. I'd only take level 2 if I was human and wanted to dip for HiPS. It's a killer ability and it's criminal that it comes in at first. I'd stay til second level for darkvision since it's a real pain trying to operate in the dark without it. Otherwise, if I already had darkvision, I'd only do a 1 level dip.
The_Shaman
02-14-07, 01:12 PM Heh, and the book talks of monk or bard shadowdancers. That I'd like to see :)
epifreak
02-14-07, 04:35 PM As far as the shadow companion thing goes, my impression upon reading the class was that it was good for exactly one thing: losing experience.
sandymac
02-16-07, 08:59 PM althogh i have not played a rouge it does not look difficult to set up flanking unless your oppanonts are dilibertly taking steps to pevent you from fanking them and them doing so will almost certainly open up statagies for your compains
lizzistardust
03-13-07, 01:12 AM Yeah, but my concern stems from the fact that if they attack from hiding, the rogue/shadowdancer gets his sneak attack damage. Then, next round, he takes a move action to hide and attacks again, dealing sneak attack damage once again, and so on.

Almost every time I read about a Shadowdancer, someone is complaining about how underpowered the class is. I think that's because the best use of the Shadowdancer (other than some cool character concepts) is to use the benefits of extreme stealth, which is exactly what your Rogue/Shadowdancer is doing. For my Wizard/Rogue character, who will be a Shadowdancer in a couple levels, it will usually be a way to sneak behind enemy lines and create mayhem through magic (oh yes, the Silent Spell feat will come in handy while hidden in the shadows!). In the case of your Rogue/Shadowdancer, it is to sneak attack whenever the shadows allow. I'll be giving up caster levels in return for my benefit, he has given up the increase in damage that a single sneak-attack will cause (among other retty significant things for a Rogue, like having Disable Device as a class skill).

Is it unbalanced? If he campaign is nothing but dungeoneering, yes. But get us out into a field in the middle of the day, and we lose most of the benefits of our prestige class. We're unbelievable in a dungeon, but it comes at a high price.

I say, let him kick some butt since he's in his element, but throw in some challenges. Have encounters in rooms that are well-lighted with ever-burning torches, have some monsters with blindfight, or throw in some creatures with scent ability. No shadow can hide the smell of an adventurer whose been underground for weeks! :p

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dracomortis 02-07-07, 02:20 PM	Recently, I ran an underground campaign, and came upon an interesting question: a shadowdancer can hide in plain sight so long as she is within 5 feet of a shadow. Underground, there is no natural light, so theoretically everything is in constant shadows. By RAW, it would seem that a shadowdancer is more or less permanently hidden while underground. Now, obviously, I've houseruled that this isn't the case and that a shadowdancer can only hide where there would be a shadow if they were above ground, otherwise my player's rogue/shadowdancer would kill everything in a matter of rounds. However, does anyone know whether or not this is how the RAW works for shadowdancers? It seems to me like the designers didn't think about underground campaigns when they designed them. On a related note, the whole hide in plain sight mechanics are little odd to begin with. I could carry around a small pebble, drop it on the ground and voila, instant shadow to hide in. Would it be reasonable to houserule that a given shadow must be large enough for the shadowdancer to actually hide in (a Medium shadowdancer requires a shadow roughly 5 feet square, for example)?
Nibbler 02-07-07, 02:39 PM	A character has to be actively trying to hide. If he attacks or is concentrating on disabling a device, etc., he is no longer hiding and can bee seen (of note, only by creatures with darkvision if there is no light). This being said, Hide in Plain Sight is a great ability for an underground campaign. Yes, it's all shadow down there.
The_Shaman 02-07-07, 05:39 PM	Hm, I thought that was about the shadow companions. Anyway, can we say that there is a shadow when there isn't light to create it? Perhaps it's best if the party's carrying a light source for that reason. One more thing: has anyone played a shadowdancer 10, and what's their opinion of the shadow companion? I saw some version with more than one - that, and if they didn't take XP when dismissed/killed, sounds more playable to me. As it is the shadowdancer is a bit weak offensively imo.
Xeonas 02-07-07, 08:18 PM	The text for Hide in Plain Sight already says that the shadow must be big enough for him to hide in.
Dracomortis 02-08-07, 03:39 PM	A character has to be actively trying to hide. If he attacks or is concentrating on disabling a device, etc., he is no longer hiding and can bee seen (of note, only by creatures with darkvision if there is no light). This being said, Hide in Plain Sight is a great ability for an underground campaign. Yes, it's all shadow down there. Yeah, but my concern stems from the fact that if they attack from hiding, the rogue/shadowdancer gets his sneak attack damage. Then, next round, he takes a move action to hide and attacks again, dealing sneak attack damage once again, and so on. Hm, I thought that was about the shadow companions. Anyway, can we say that there is a shadow when there isn't light to create it? Perhaps it's best if the party's carrying a light source for that reason. One more thing: has anyone played a shadowdancer 10, and what's their opinion of the shadow companion? I saw some version with more than one - that, and if they didn't take XP when dismissed/killed, sounds more playable to me. As it is the shadowdancer is a bit weak offensively imo. My friend made a similar point. However, a shadow is simply an area where light does not fall. Therefore, underground is in total shadows, because light does not reach it. As for multiple companions...I'd probably allow it, but have each additional shadow receive bonus Hit Dice and such as if the shadowdancer were of a lower level - for example, the second shadow receives bonuses as if the shadowdancer were 2 levels lower, the third shadow receives them as if 4 levels lower, etc. Losing XP when they die isn't really a big deal, since the self-correcting system ensures you'll catch back up with your party members. The text for Hide in Plain Sight already says that the shadow must be big enough for him to hide in. Well, guess that settles that one.
mittenninja 02-08-07, 03:46 PM	Yeah, but my concern stems from the fact that if they attack from hiding, the rogue/shadowdancer gets his sneak attack damage. Then, next round, he takes a move action to hide and attacks again, dealing sneak attack damage once again, and so on. Thats not any different from a full rogue with the improved feint feat. In fact, it's exactly the same except just replace hide opposed by spot with bluff opposed by sense motive, and it doesnt even require any shadows.
Dracomortis 02-08-07, 04:36 PM	Thats not any different from a full rogue with the improved feint feat. In fact, it's exactly the same except just replace hide opposed by spot with bluff opposed by sense motive, and it doesnt even require any shadows. Huh. True enough I suppose. Alright then, I guess that answers all of my questions. Thanks guys.
mittenninja 02-09-07, 03:28 AM	you're welcome :)
RealMad 02-14-07, 10:59 AM	One more thing: has anyone played a shadowdancer 10, and what's their opinion of the shadow companion? I saw some version with more than one - that, and if they didn't take XP when dismissed/killed, sounds more playable to me. As it is the shadowdancer is a bit weak offensively imo. I played SDancer 10 but felt I went too far. The shadow companions are fun. Normally I just used them as reconnaisance and for the really dangerous battles. Mostly I just ordered them into the walls in those cases. I didn't really play a ShadowDancer for battle. I often ended up playing solo, in fact, as I would sneak into buildings and open the door for the rest of the party. The kick really in playing a Shadow Dancer is in evasion and hiding. Sneaking past whole groups or disappearing right in front of someone. You'll do your share of SA damage, of course, and hold your own in a fight but I found that I was most in my element outside of out and out combat. If I had to do it again, I'd only go to six if I really wanted to be a dancer. I'd only take level 2 if I was human and wanted to dip for HiPS. It's a killer ability and it's criminal that it comes in at first. I'd stay til second level for darkvision since it's a real pain trying to operate in the dark without it. Otherwise, if I already had darkvision, I'd only do a 1 level dip.
The_Shaman 02-14-07, 01:12 PM	Heh, and the book talks of monk or bard shadowdancers. That I'd like to see :)
epifreak 02-14-07, 04:35 PM	As far as the shadow companion thing goes, my impression upon reading the class was that it was good for exactly one thing: losing experience.
sandymac 02-16-07, 08:59 PM	althogh i have not played a rouge it does not look difficult to set up flanking unless your oppanonts are dilibertly taking steps to pevent you from fanking them and them doing so will almost certainly open up statagies for your compains
lizzistardust 03-13-07, 01:12 AM	Yeah, but my concern stems from the fact that if they attack from hiding, the rogue/shadowdancer gets his sneak attack damage. Then, next round, he takes a move action to hide and attacks again, dealing sneak attack damage once again, and so on. Almost every time I read about a Shadowdancer, someone is complaining about how underpowered the class is. I think that's because the best use of the Shadowdancer (other than some cool character concepts) is to use the benefits of extreme stealth, which is exactly what your Rogue/Shadowdancer is doing. For my Wizard/Rogue character, who will be a Shadowdancer in a couple levels, it will usually be a way to sneak behind enemy lines and create mayhem through magic (oh yes, the Silent Spell feat will come in handy while hidden in the shadows!). In the case of your Rogue/Shadowdancer, it is to sneak attack whenever the shadows allow. I'll be giving up caster levels in return for my benefit, he has given up the increase in damage that a single sneak-attack will cause (among other retty significant things for a Rogue, like having Disable Device as a class skill). Is it unbalanced? If he campaign is nothing but dungeoneering, yes. But get us out into a field in the middle of the day, and we lose most of the benefits of our prestige class. We're unbelievable in a dungeon, but it comes at a high price. I say, let him kick some butt since he's in his element, but throw in some challenges. Have encounters in rooms that are well-lighted with ever-burning torches, have some monsters with blindfight, or throw in some creatures with scent ability. No shadow can hide the smell of an adventurer whose been underground for weeks! :p