Shifter warshaper/were-touched master questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Shifter warshaper/were-touched master questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mad_Jack
04-08-08, 11:34 AM Just for giggles, I made up a non-druid shifter Warshaper character, a rogue/swashbuckler with daring outlaw and the razorclaw trait. A variation on the standard Sneaky McStabby type, a bit more stabby than sneaky, but using the natural attacks rather than TWF.
(And, no, thank you very much, I am not the least bit interested in debating the whole shapeshifter subtype issue, lol. :D )

I just wanted to check my understanding of a few things.

1. Will the +4 strength bonus from the Warshaper prc stack with the +2 strength bonus from the Were-touched Master prc?

and

2. Are increases in the size of claw damage cumulative?

The wording of the 1st level Warshaper class feature, the 1st level Were-touched Master (tiger) class ability, and the Improved Natural Attack feat are all slightly different, so it's a bit of a puzzle. Now, because of the character build, I took two levels of Warshaper, then one level of Were-Touched Master, and was contemplating possibly taking the Improved Natural Attack feat after that.

The razorclaw shifter trait gives me 1d4 claw damage.

The 1st-level ability of the Warshaper prc says my natural weapon does damage as though it were one category larger - as a medium creature my claws do 1d4, so that would increase the damage to 1d6.

Now, the first level of Were-touched Master (tiger) says that it increases the damage of my claws by one die size, so that would bring it up to 1d8.

This seems fairly simple, in that one is treating me (or at least my natural weapon) as a size larger and the other specifically changes the size of the die I roll - different language, it should stack, right?

If I then take the shifter feat Improved Natural Attack, it says the damage of my claws increases by one step, as though I were one size category larger... Now the questions become -

A) Since this is basically the same language as the Warshaper's ability, would this further increase the damage of my claws since the two increases are from different sources, or would this not be applicable since they've already been increased in that way? And then

B) Looking at page 296 of the MM, the next size up from 1d8 would be... 2d6?

And the last question is

3. Do you think it would be worth it to take either a second level of were-touched master (for an additional shifter feat) or to take the third and fourth levels of warshaper (for the reach and the fast healing)?

The way I've got things set up in the build so far, I'd be taking the second level of were-touched master at 11th level, which would get me the improved natural attack feat for free instead of waiting til 12th level for it. This would also be my fourth shifter feat, so I'd get another daily use of my shifting. The down side is that over the course of the build I'd lose one die of sneak attack damage. This personally seems worthwhile and a very good idea (assuming I can benefit from impr. natural attack).
The third and fourth levels of warshaper would give me an extra 5ft reach with my claws and fast healing 2, but I'd be losing another die of sneak attack damage due to not using those levels for rogue or swashbuckler...

Any thoughts?
Ander Spectacular
04-09-08, 10:13 AM 1. Will the +4 strength bonus from the Warshaper prc stack with the +2 strength bonus from the Were-touched Master prc?

and

2. Are increases in the size of claw damage cumulative?

The wording of the 1st level Warshaper class feature, the 1st level Were-touched Master (tiger) class ability, and the Improved Natural Attack feat are all slightly different, so it's a bit of a puzzle. Now, because of the character build, I took two levels of Warshaper, then one level of Were-Touched Master, and was contemplating possibly taking the Improved Natural Attack feat after that.

The razorclaw shifter trait gives me 1d4 claw damage.

The 1st-level ability of the Warshaper prc says my natural weapon does damage as though it were one category larger - as a medium creature my claws do 1d4, so that would increase the damage to 1d6.

Now, the first level of Were-touched Master (tiger) says that it increases the damage of my claws by one die size, so that would bring it up to 1d8.

This seems fairly simple, in that one is treating me (or at least my natural weapon) as a size larger and the other specifically changes the size of the die I roll - different language, it should stack, right?

If I then take the shifter feat Improved Natural Attack, it says the damage of my claws increases by one step, as though I were one size category larger... Now the questions become -

A) Since this is basically the same language as the Warshaper's ability, would this further increase the damage of my claws since the two increases are from different sources, or would this not be applicable since they've already been increased in that way? And then

B) Looking at page 296 of the MM, the next size up from 1d8 would be... 2d6?

And the last question is

3. Do you think it would be worth it to take either a second level of were-touched master (for an additional shifter feat) or to take the third and fourth levels of warshaper (for the reach and the fast healing)?

The way I've got things set up in the build so far, I'd be taking the second level of were-touched master at 11th level, which would get me the improved natural attack feat for free instead of waiting til 12th level for it. This would also be my fourth shifter feat, so I'd get another daily use of my shifting. The down side is that over the course of the build I'd lose one die of sneak attack damage. This personally seems worthwhile and a very good idea (assuming I can benefit from impr. natural attack).
The third and fourth levels of warshaper would give me an extra 5ft reach with my claws and fast healing 2, but I'd be losing another die of sneak attack damage due to not using those levels for rogue or swashbuckler...

Any thoughts?
1. Yes (while shifted)
2. Yes (2d6 damage)
3. At least 1 more warshaper for the reach. The Fast Healing is great for out of combat healing, but mid combat it is pretty worthless.

The extra shifter feat might be worthwhile. I would personally aim more for shifter multiattack or extra shifter trait longtooth over improved nat attack. Without knowing some specifics of your character build it is hard to judge too much stuff. You can also always dip swordsage from ToB for 1 level and take Martial Stance: Assassin's Stance for a bonus 2d6 sneak attack(1 level and 1 feat makes up for 3 rogue levels).
-AS-
Mad_Jack
04-10-08, 10:56 AM Well, what started as just a theoretical exercise is getting a bit involved, lol...

The basic thought for this guy is a claw-fighter using a daring outlaw rogue/swashbuckler base to get sneak attack damage. The levels in warshaper and were-touched master are for the purpose of pimping out his claws while he's shifting. I'm sure he's not exactly optimized, but I was trying to get some of the good stuff in as soon as possible, while keeping to the theme of him focusing on his shifter heritage.

I decided to start with the longstrider shifter trait for the extra movement, and took longstrider elite for his 1st level feet. (+2 to dex and +20 ft. movement when shifted.) Until level six, he'll most likely be fighting with a rapier.

Levels 1-6 brought him up to rogue 3/swashbuckler 3 (sneak attack 2d6, weapon finesse and insightful strike)
feats: shifter acrobatics (for the skill bonuses), and extra trait - razorclaw (1d4 damage)

Levels 7-8... Warshaper 1 + 2 (claw damage now 1d6, +4 to str and con when shifted)

Level 9... Barbarian 1 (needed more points in survival skill to enter were-touched master, + 10 feet to movement and rage 1/day)
feat: daring outlaw (sneak attack now 3d6)

Levels 10-11... Were-Touched Master 1 + 2 (claw damage now 1d8, free shifter feat. If I take improved natural attack, claw damage goes up to 2d6.)

Level 12... Swordsage 1 (using tiger claw as discipline focus to get weapon focus for his claws, picking mostly tiger claw maneuvers)
feat: martial stance - assassin's stance (sneak attack now 5d6)

Level 13... Warshaper 3 (extra 5ft. reach)

After that, I'm just going straight swashbuckler to up my BAB, get more sneak attack damage and pump the hell out of my tumble skill. The way I figure it, by 13th level, I could shift 3 times a day and end up with +2 Dex, +4 Str and Con, and two claw attacks for 2d6... On a sneak attack using assassin's stance, I'd be hitting for a total 7d6. If I also chose to rage while shifted, I'd end up with +8 to Str and Con...
He's mostly just a collection of random vague ideas inspired by recent posts on the forums that sounded like they might go well together, so I decided to make an intellectual challenge out of throwing something together.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mad_Jack 04-08-08, 11:34 AM	Just for giggles, I made up a non-druid shifter Warshaper character, a rogue/swashbuckler with daring outlaw and the razorclaw trait. A variation on the standard Sneaky McStabby type, a bit more stabby than sneaky, but using the natural attacks rather than TWF. (And, no, thank you very much, I am not the least bit interested in debating the whole shapeshifter subtype issue, lol. :D ) I just wanted to check my understanding of a few things. 1. Will the +4 strength bonus from the Warshaper prc stack with the +2 strength bonus from the Were-touched Master prc? and 2. Are increases in the size of claw damage cumulative? The wording of the 1st level Warshaper class feature, the 1st level Were-touched Master (tiger) class ability, and the Improved Natural Attack feat are all slightly different, so it's a bit of a puzzle. Now, because of the character build, I took two levels of Warshaper, then one level of Were-Touched Master, and was contemplating possibly taking the Improved Natural Attack feat after that. The razorclaw shifter trait gives me 1d4 claw damage. The 1st-level ability of the Warshaper prc says my natural weapon does damage as though it were one category larger - as a medium creature my claws do 1d4, so that would increase the damage to 1d6. Now, the first level of Were-touched Master (tiger) says that it increases the damage of my claws by one die size, so that would bring it up to 1d8. This seems fairly simple, in that one is treating me (or at least my natural weapon) as a size larger and the other specifically changes the size of the die I roll - different language, it should stack, right? If I then take the shifter feat Improved Natural Attack, it says the damage of my claws increases by one step, as though I were one size category larger... Now the questions become - A) Since this is basically the same language as the Warshaper's ability, would this further increase the damage of my claws since the two increases are from different sources, or would this not be applicable since they've already been increased in that way? And then B) Looking at page 296 of the MM, the next size up from 1d8 would be... 2d6? And the last question is 3. Do you think it would be worth it to take either a second level of were-touched master (for an additional shifter feat) or to take the third and fourth levels of warshaper (for the reach and the fast healing)? The way I've got things set up in the build so far, I'd be taking the second level of were-touched master at 11th level, which would get me the improved natural attack feat for free instead of waiting til 12th level for it. This would also be my fourth shifter feat, so I'd get another daily use of my shifting. The down side is that over the course of the build I'd lose one die of sneak attack damage. This personally seems worthwhile and a very good idea (assuming I can benefit from impr. natural attack). The third and fourth levels of warshaper would give me an extra 5ft reach with my claws and fast healing 2, but I'd be losing another die of sneak attack damage due to not using those levels for rogue or swashbuckler... Any thoughts?
Ander Spectacular 04-09-08, 10:13 AM	1. Will the +4 strength bonus from the Warshaper prc stack with the +2 strength bonus from the Were-touched Master prc? and 2. Are increases in the size of claw damage cumulative? The wording of the 1st level Warshaper class feature, the 1st level Were-touched Master (tiger) class ability, and the Improved Natural Attack feat are all slightly different, so it's a bit of a puzzle. Now, because of the character build, I took two levels of Warshaper, then one level of Were-Touched Master, and was contemplating possibly taking the Improved Natural Attack feat after that. The razorclaw shifter trait gives me 1d4 claw damage. The 1st-level ability of the Warshaper prc says my natural weapon does damage as though it were one category larger - as a medium creature my claws do 1d4, so that would increase the damage to 1d6. Now, the first level of Were-touched Master (tiger) says that it increases the damage of my claws by one die size, so that would bring it up to 1d8. This seems fairly simple, in that one is treating me (or at least my natural weapon) as a size larger and the other specifically changes the size of the die I roll - different language, it should stack, right? If I then take the shifter feat Improved Natural Attack, it says the damage of my claws increases by one step, as though I were one size category larger... Now the questions become - A) Since this is basically the same language as the Warshaper's ability, would this further increase the damage of my claws since the two increases are from different sources, or would this not be applicable since they've already been increased in that way? And then B) Looking at page 296 of the MM, the next size up from 1d8 would be... 2d6? And the last question is 3. Do you think it would be worth it to take either a second level of were-touched master (for an additional shifter feat) or to take the third and fourth levels of warshaper (for the reach and the fast healing)? The way I've got things set up in the build so far, I'd be taking the second level of were-touched master at 11th level, which would get me the improved natural attack feat for free instead of waiting til 12th level for it. This would also be my fourth shifter feat, so I'd get another daily use of my shifting. The down side is that over the course of the build I'd lose one die of sneak attack damage. This personally seems worthwhile and a very good idea (assuming I can benefit from impr. natural attack). The third and fourth levels of warshaper would give me an extra 5ft reach with my claws and fast healing 2, but I'd be losing another die of sneak attack damage due to not using those levels for rogue or swashbuckler... Any thoughts? 1. Yes (while shifted) 2. Yes (2d6 damage) 3. At least 1 more warshaper for the reach. The Fast Healing is great for out of combat healing, but mid combat it is pretty worthless. The extra shifter feat might be worthwhile. I would personally aim more for shifter multiattack or extra shifter trait longtooth over improved nat attack. Without knowing some specifics of your character build it is hard to judge too much stuff. You can also always dip swordsage from ToB for 1 level and take Martial Stance: Assassin's Stance for a bonus 2d6 sneak attack(1 level and 1 feat makes up for 3 rogue levels). -AS-
Mad_Jack 04-10-08, 10:56 AM	Well, what started as just a theoretical exercise is getting a bit involved, lol... The basic thought for this guy is a claw-fighter using a daring outlaw rogue/swashbuckler base to get sneak attack damage. The levels in warshaper and were-touched master are for the purpose of pimping out his claws while he's shifting. I'm sure he's not exactly optimized, but I was trying to get some of the good stuff in as soon as possible, while keeping to the theme of him focusing on his shifter heritage. I decided to start with the longstrider shifter trait for the extra movement, and took longstrider elite for his 1st level feet. (+2 to dex and +20 ft. movement when shifted.) Until level six, he'll most likely be fighting with a rapier. Levels 1-6 brought him up to rogue 3/swashbuckler 3 (sneak attack 2d6, weapon finesse and insightful strike) feats: shifter acrobatics (for the skill bonuses), and extra trait - razorclaw (1d4 damage) Levels 7-8... Warshaper 1 + 2 (claw damage now 1d6, +4 to str and con when shifted) Level 9... Barbarian 1 (needed more points in survival skill to enter were-touched master, + 10 feet to movement and rage 1/day) feat: daring outlaw (sneak attack now 3d6) Levels 10-11... Were-Touched Master 1 + 2 (claw damage now 1d8, free shifter feat. If I take improved natural attack, claw damage goes up to 2d6.) Level 12... Swordsage 1 (using tiger claw as discipline focus to get weapon focus for his claws, picking mostly tiger claw maneuvers) feat: martial stance - assassin's stance (sneak attack now 5d6) Level 13... Warshaper 3 (extra 5ft. reach) After that, I'm just going straight swashbuckler to up my BAB, get more sneak attack damage and pump the hell out of my tumble skill. The way I figure it, by 13th level, I could shift 3 times a day and end up with +2 Dex, +4 Str and Con, and two claw attacks for 2d6... On a sneak attack using assassin's stance, I'd be hitting for a total 7d6. If I also chose to rage while shifted, I'd end up with +8 to Str and Con... He's mostly just a collection of random vague ideas inspired by recent posts on the forums that sounded like they might go well together, so I decided to make an intellectual challenge out of throwing something together.