'Sight unseen prestige classes': Would you consider them? [Archive] - Wizards Community

'Sight unseen prestige classes': Would you consider them? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Avenger314
09-01-07, 05:40 PM Hi all,

I’m wondering what you think of the idea of ‘sight unseen’ prestige classes, both as a player and as a DM. The basic thought is that the player can advance in a prestige class. However, the DM doesn’t actually show him the prestige class abilities until he gains the respective level (with possible exceptions of ‘predictable’ thigns such as HD, BaB, and saves). “Ok, you’ve attained level 3 in the class. You gain a caster level, an additional use of Smite Chaos, and a +2 saving throw against all spells and spell-like abilities against chaotic outsiders.”

Now, I’m not saying this should happen to published prestige classes. A player can still be a radiant servant of Pelor, an archmage, a bear warrior, a thrallherd. But the DM might create a couple homebrewed prestige classes like the Ruby Knights, the Shadow Guild Initiates, etc.

Why am I advocating this? To introduce a bit of mystery in the campaign, but not shove it down the players’ throats. Players give up the ability to know the next ten levels of their character and they don’t know exactly what feats and abilities they get. They get some added mystery, the player gets to wonder what they get next and be excited at what the next level may bring instead of knowing their entire progression and just being a point on a pre-charted line. In terms of mechanics, well, there’s the next part of my essay.

This could only take place where there’s a considerable amount of trust between a DM and player who have gamed together for quite some time. The DM would have to tailor the prestige class to the player, not just character. The prestige class may possibly have to be comparatively powered—2 good saves where one would do, or d8 HD where comparable prestige classes would have d6.

A rather long-winded approach I guess, to this basic question: Would you consider this option? Say you were a rogue/caster type and considering taking Arcane Trickster. Your character meets an NPC who describes himself as a Shadow Guild member and attempts to recruit you. Your DM tells you that there’s a Shadow Guild Initiate prestige class and that your character meets the requirements. He also assures you that he’s made this class tailored to what you like, he’s not trying to trick you, and it’s a respectable prestige class. Would you consider it?

What do you all think of this idea? Please discuss.

Jim
eleyas
09-02-07, 09:53 AM I think its a great idea for most people, that being said there are always gonna be those people who say no because thy are trying to "be" the charecter. I think its a cool and fun new twist on the PrC idea.
Khatoblepas
09-02-07, 10:18 AM Your DM tells you that there’s a Shadow Guild Initiate prestige class and that your character meets the requirements. He also assures you that he’s made this class tailored to what you like, he’s not trying to trick you, and it’s a respectable prestige class. Would you consider it?

Only if he told me what the course entailed. Like, exactly what I was going to learn, even if it's just fluff.

Seriously, you wouldn't go on a University course if you didn't know what the hell was going on with it. Like, I'm taking a college course in order to qualify for a university course. I have to know what I'm going to learn, otherwise I'm just wasting my time gambling on it. Who knows? It might just be a class full of +2 to skill bonuses. Urgh.

In this kind of thing you'd have to make the prestige class really worthwhile. No dead levels, or the player might just quit the class.
boots_pimpleton
09-02-07, 05:27 PM I agree with Khatoblepas.

Having the ability to look at ability progression of a PrC is important for how a player really playes one's character.

Take this into consideration, my friend wanted to play a cleric fighter, but due to his feat selection (sometimes chosen blindly), he was niether a good cleric or good fighter at any one time. Only after he retired his character and the DM "reshaped" him to be alot like a fighter did the character really come to life.
(just an example of foretought that could drive a character to be what he/she/it wanted to be)

HOWEVER, a few suggestions to go with hiding the abilities at advanced levels (to stop power gamers):

Make your homebrewed PrC a give and take system, where as the PC can choose what ability to get, but cannot choose ALL of the abilities.

For certain very strong prebuilt PrCs that were already published, use the same restriction.

Since abilities of a class are practically metagame, only show what an NPC can do with them ingame as a way for the player to gauge if he/she wants it as a PrC (this will show tangible benifits for a "hidden" ability, and this is a random reward system that will give the player stronger satisfaction when achieved).

Let the player plan out character development based on these "hidden" abilities, and if need be, accomodate by moving these "hidden" abilites up a level or down a level.

Expose the PC to the "hidden" abilities not right when the PC gains a new level, but at a desperate moment or pivitol time (this will make a much more dramatic and fulfilling gain of a "hidden" ability).

In homebrewed "hidden" ability classes (such as those made from a very secretive cult) you may consider using reacurring abilities that get stronger as the PrC is taken, so the PC knows where the ability is going without knowing enough to powergame.
EvilVegan
09-09-07, 08:45 AM I agree with Khatoblepas.

Having the ability to look at ability progression of a PrC is important for how a player really playes one's character. While a good point, I think I disagree. I don't know how your players are, I know mine are a good spread of pre-planners and 'hand me something to play'. But both are equally capable of playing their characters as they feel they should be played. The character, how he acts, what his goals are, who he knows, etc, is not determined by class or prestige class. That is determined by story and interaction.

Anyway, I like the idea, but I personally am a pre-planner, I have dozens of builds from 1-20 fully statted out, just waiting on a game where someone needs X.

As long as the person designing the PrC/character abilities was nearly as proficient at pre-planning as I am, I wouldn't have a problem with it at all. I wouldn't even care what I was playing as long as I trusted in the creator's ability to charactersmith. My DM is pretty good at it, so I'd be fairly certain he wouldn't do something like design a caster character with nothing but skill bonus feats.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Avenger314 09-01-07, 05:40 PM	Hi all, I’m wondering what you think of the idea of ‘sight unseen’ prestige classes, both as a player and as a DM. The basic thought is that the player can advance in a prestige class. However, the DM doesn’t actually show him the prestige class abilities until he gains the respective level (with possible exceptions of ‘predictable’ thigns such as HD, BaB, and saves). “Ok, you’ve attained level 3 in the class. You gain a caster level, an additional use of Smite Chaos, and a +2 saving throw against all spells and spell-like abilities against chaotic outsiders.” Now, I’m not saying this should happen to published prestige classes. A player can still be a radiant servant of Pelor, an archmage, a bear warrior, a thrallherd. But the DM might create a couple homebrewed prestige classes like the Ruby Knights, the Shadow Guild Initiates, etc. Why am I advocating this? To introduce a bit of mystery in the campaign, but not shove it down the players’ throats. Players give up the ability to know the next ten levels of their character and they don’t know exactly what feats and abilities they get. They get some added mystery, the player gets to wonder what they get next and be excited at what the next level may bring instead of knowing their entire progression and just being a point on a pre-charted line. In terms of mechanics, well, there’s the next part of my essay. This could only take place where there’s a considerable amount of trust between a DM and player who have gamed together for quite some time. The DM would have to tailor the prestige class to the player, not just character. The prestige class may possibly have to be comparatively powered—2 good saves where one would do, or d8 HD where comparable prestige classes would have d6. A rather long-winded approach I guess, to this basic question: Would you consider this option? Say you were a rogue/caster type and considering taking Arcane Trickster. Your character meets an NPC who describes himself as a Shadow Guild member and attempts to recruit you. Your DM tells you that there’s a Shadow Guild Initiate prestige class and that your character meets the requirements. He also assures you that he’s made this class tailored to what you like, he’s not trying to trick you, and it’s a respectable prestige class. Would you consider it? What do you all think of this idea? Please discuss. Jim
eleyas 09-02-07, 09:53 AM	I think its a great idea for most people, that being said there are always gonna be those people who say no because thy are trying to "be" the charecter. I think its a cool and fun new twist on the PrC idea.
Khatoblepas 09-02-07, 10:18 AM	Your DM tells you that there’s a Shadow Guild Initiate prestige class and that your character meets the requirements. He also assures you that he’s made this class tailored to what you like, he’s not trying to trick you, and it’s a respectable prestige class. Would you consider it? Only if he told me what the course entailed. Like, exactly what I was going to learn, even if it's just fluff. Seriously, you wouldn't go on a University course if you didn't know what the hell was going on with it. Like, I'm taking a college course in order to qualify for a university course. I have to know what I'm going to learn, otherwise I'm just wasting my time gambling on it. Who knows? It might just be a class full of +2 to skill bonuses. Urgh. In this kind of thing you'd have to make the prestige class really worthwhile. No dead levels, or the player might just quit the class.
boots_pimpleton 09-02-07, 05:27 PM	I agree with Khatoblepas. Having the ability to look at ability progression of a PrC is important for how a player really playes one's character. Take this into consideration, my friend wanted to play a cleric fighter, but due to his feat selection (sometimes chosen blindly), he was niether a good cleric or good fighter at any one time. Only after he retired his character and the DM "reshaped" him to be alot like a fighter did the character really come to life. (just an example of foretought that could drive a character to be what he/she/it wanted to be) HOWEVER, a few suggestions to go with hiding the abilities at advanced levels (to stop power gamers): Make your homebrewed PrC a give and take system, where as the PC can choose what ability to get, but cannot choose ALL of the abilities. For certain very strong prebuilt PrCs that were already published, use the same restriction. Since abilities of a class are practically metagame, only show what an NPC can do with them ingame as a way for the player to gauge if he/she wants it as a PrC (this will show tangible benifits for a "hidden" ability, and this is a random reward system that will give the player stronger satisfaction when achieved). Let the player plan out character development based on these "hidden" abilities, and if need be, accomodate by moving these "hidden" abilites up a level or down a level. Expose the PC to the "hidden" abilities not right when the PC gains a new level, but at a desperate moment or pivitol time (this will make a much more dramatic and fulfilling gain of a "hidden" ability). In homebrewed "hidden" ability classes (such as those made from a very secretive cult) you may consider using reacurring abilities that get stronger as the PrC is taken, so the PC knows where the ability is going without knowing enough to powergame.
EvilVegan 09-09-07, 08:45 AM	I agree with Khatoblepas. Having the ability to look at ability progression of a PrC is important for how a player really playes one's character. While a good point, I think I disagree. I don't know how your players are, I know mine are a good spread of pre-planners and 'hand me something to play'. But both are equally capable of playing their characters as they feel they should be played. The character, how he acts, what his goals are, who he knows, etc, is not determined by class or prestige class. That is determined by story and interaction. Anyway, I like the idea, but I personally am a pre-planner, I have dozens of builds from 1-20 fully statted out, just waiting on a game where someone needs X. As long as the person designing the PrC/character abilities was nearly as proficient at pre-planning as I am, I wouldn't have a problem with it at all. I wouldn't even care what I was playing as long as I trusted in the creator's ability to charactersmith. My DM is pretty good at it, so I'd be fairly certain he wouldn't do something like design a caster character with nothing but skill bonus feats.