Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheSeventhStooge 04-29-08, 09:04 AM	Well, here I go probably starting a war of some kind, but here it goes. I have been on the board for a while and have noticed that the consensus is that the MT is an underpowered class for various reasons which I won't go into now (you can read the posts for yourself if you want to understand why). So I think this begs the question: What would the long-time D&D players do to fix the mystic theurge to make him a more viable character? Or is fixing the class even an option? Or would you simply do away with the class altogether? Let the fun begin! TheSeventhStooge...
Bergtann 04-29-08, 09:17 AM	I have been thinking about just that recently: I'd base it on the Ultimate Magus. Change the skill requirements to Knowledge: religon 5, arcana 5 and Spellcraft 8. Ability to either cast second-level divine spells and first level arcane, or fist level divine and second-level arcane. Give it the Ultimate Magus spell-progression table, but let the player chose where to apply the single-advancement levels. So he gets 10/10 + 7/10, his choice which gets what. Note that Favored Sould + Sorcerer can enter at the same level as a Wizard/Cleric. Also, this replaces the normal Mystic Theurge, no mix and match. I am still unsure about the class abilities. The free metamagics is the biggie of the UMagus. Is it redundant or overpowered when the Cleric has DMM available?
GalaGalaxia 04-29-08, 10:21 AM	The problem, as I see it, is CL loss. I think the class can work well as a filler in the party ... but it will be weaksauce for anyone attempting to fill the role of both an arcane and a divine caster. Granted, the sheer flexibility and versatility that comes from having more spells (and being able to choose which of the divine+arcane spells to cast from where) is a nice feature. However, as the class stands today, it's not really worth taking in most circumstances. And, if it was made more attractive, it might indeed become too powerful. I'd leave it as-is.
Jaxgaret 04-29-08, 11:43 AM	A Mystic Theurge is perfectly fine in a party that is middle-of-the-road in terms of intra-party balance. In an optimized party, it's not. So the MT should be left as is, and there should be a new hybrid class created for more powerful campaigns.
StevenO 04-29-08, 12:44 PM	The two "fixes" I'd use for the MT are increasing its HD to d6 and bumping it up to a 3/4 BAB. I would also consider some kind of ASF reduction. These changes are to make the class more approachable from a CLERIC/wizard standpoint. With the MT being so much like the wizard (BAB, HD) all it loses is casting but a cleric gets screwed so this make up for part of that. Even with a few extra hp and a little more attack it doesn't really make the class any more powerful than it already is because of its spellcasting potential. Anything more and you are just rewriting the class into something completely new. Somewhere I've suggested changes to the Ultimate Magus that could make it a decent and possibly even acceptable divine/arcane mix. The only thing is you would need to ban/restrict MT to prevent those hyper builds; an UM can have a 13/9 casting split at 15th level but letting a character tag on another dual progression to make it 18/14 is a little too good. Yes, I know of the Arcane Heirophant/MT combo for 17/17 casting but at least that has a lot more early weakness than a UMish/MT combo would have.
DeathlessJuan 04-29-08, 01:40 PM	My fix for the Mystic therge is to do three things. 1) Grant Turn/Rebuke Undead and allow it to stack with any class that already has it. 2) Allow the Mystic therge to use their Turn attempts to pay the metamagic costs of all of their spells. This is similar to Divine Metamagic, though without the heavy feat requirements. It applies to both arcane and divine spells and can only reduce the metamagic cost to +1. Casters that prepare their spells can choose to spend the attempts when they prepare the spell or at time of casting. Spontaneous casters may spend a turn attempt to reduce the casting time of the metamagic spell from a full round action to a standard action in addition to reducing the metamagic cost. 3) At levels 1, 4, 7, and 10; grant a +1 to caster level to both divine and arcane casting to make up for the loss of spellcasting levels. This bonus can not exceed your HD +1. Means it will not stack with practised spellcaster.
StruckingFuggle 04-29-08, 02:23 PM	Lesse. 1) Increase its caster level in increments so that by about 13th character level (if taken as early as possible) its back full to caster levels. 2) Armored Mage (Light), even if its fairly unnecessary. 3) Progress Familiar, Animal Companion, and Turn Undead, if the player has them. And maybe Domains by half. 4) Extend it to 14 levels long. 5) Heh. Maybe pool its spell slots / spells per day and allow the prep of Divine spells in Arcane slots, and vice versa.
Kraz 04-29-08, 11:57 PM	Let's see... 1.) Increase HD to a d6, and bab to 3/4, also change skills to say 'all skills of divine casting class and arcane casting class used to enter MT are class skills.' 2.) Continued advancement of familiar, animal companion, and turning if the character had those. 3.) Give practiced spell caster feat that covers both the arcane and divine caster class that was used to enter. 4.) This one is just a maybe, but give a third domain to clerics, and a domain to FSs that decide to enter it. 5.) At levels 1, 5, and 10 that MT can pick one extra spell to add to their spell book(if wizard), one extra divine spell to their spells known(if FS), one extra arcane spell to list of spells known(if sorcerer), and gain a bonus spell slot(if cleric) to any level of spells they currently know. 6.) Lower entry requirements to Third level arcane caster, and third level divine caster. Maybe a few more, can't remember some of the changes I made.
Bob Loblaw 04-30-08, 12:14 AM	I would give them the Alternate Source Spell feat for free at 1st level. You can find the feat in Dragon Magazine 325. Basically it allows you to prepare your spells as either divine or arcane, but if you do you increase the spell level by one. For example, you can prepare Cure Serious Wounds as an arcane spell but as a 4th level spell or you can prepare Fireball as a 4th level divine spell. I think that they should get something like (this would need some improvement, but I'm trying to combine the casting abilities): Level 1: Alternate Source Spell Level 2: Caster Level +1 Level 3: Theurgic Creationist (Dragon 325), allows you to stack caster levels to determine your caster level when creating an item Level 4: May use either primary casting stat to determine DCs Level 5: Improved Alternate Source Spell (this feat doesn't exist, but it would lower the spell level by one for the alternate source spell feat) Level 6: Caster Level +1 Level 7: May use either primary casting stat to determine bonus spells Level 8: Any spell that is on both class spell lists has an increase to caster level of +1 Level 9: May spontaneously cast any spell that is on both caster lists but must sacrifice a spell slot one level higher Level 10: Caster Level +1 This is far from perfect, but it feels more theurgic than what's in the DMG.
Bergtann 04-30-08, 04:22 AM	After thinking about it, the Geomancers "Spell versatility" class feature progression seems right. That is 9 levels of class abilities, one free metamagic feat brings it up to ten levels. Also reduces MAD.
Spikes01k 04-30-08, 12:35 PM	I would give them this... Let's see... 1.) Increase HD to a d6, and bab to 3/4, also change skills to say 'all skills of divine casting class and arcane casting class used to enter MT are class skills.' 2.) Give practiced spell caster feat that covers both the arcane and divine caster class...... as a class ability. I would also give them. 3.) NO MORE level cap on the PrC. So they can get access to both 9th level spells before epic.
RobbieAB 05-02-08, 02:51 AM	3.) NO MORE level cap on the PrC. So they can get access to both 9th level spells before epic. Have you read the rules for MyTh above level 10? It starts only getting one set of spell casting every level, alternating between arcane and divine. Going Epic, you ditch MyTh so fast it's not funny. Personally, I'm not sure that MyTh is that underpowered. Yes, it struggles to keep up with the power curve of a single class caster, but multi-classing casters always do. In a twinked out group, he's going to struggle, under a rational DM who understands rule 0 and doesn't run a "You get 8 hours uninterupted sleep" after every 2-3 encounters, it's actually quite a nice class. 17/13 isn't that awful at the end of the day.
Salla 05-02-08, 01:21 PM	IMNSHO, it would require re-writing the entire magic system so that it's not foolish to not be a full caster. The problem isn't so much the class as the fact that the spellcasting system is so ridiculously more powerful than the rest of the PC options.
JaronK 05-02-08, 05:52 PM	I think the issue is that MT is already optimizable (consider Wizard 10/Ur Priest 2/MT 8), so anything to enhance it would make it too strong. I'd instead make it into a base class like the Archivist, but have all spells be treated as being 1 spell level higher than normal (so you'd cast Glitterdust in a 3rd level slot, but have access to tons of different spells). JaronK
Xavon 05-03-08, 09:35 PM	Other than fixing the epic progression to not be utterly stupid, nothing.
ninjarabbit 05-03-08, 09:58 PM	-Bump the hit dice up to a d6 -Bonus feat at levels 1, 5, and 10, may chose from any metamagic feat, any item creation feat, practiced spellcaster, improved familiar, obtain familiar, natural bond, extra turning, improved turning, extra music, any spell focus, any greater spell focus, spell penetration, and greater spell penetration. -Chose one of the following at level 1: familiar progression, turn/rebuke undead progression, domain ability progression as if a cleric (strength domain for example), wildshape progression, bardic music progression, or animal companion progression. -Increase the skill points to 4/level -Fix the epic level progression
archerpwr 05-04-08, 11:01 PM	Requirements: Spell Focus(Evil), Iron Will, Earth Spell I'd add that.
StevenO 05-05-08, 12:28 AM	Requirements: Spell Focus(Evil), Iron Will, Earth Spell I'd add that. Nice joke. Including two of the prequisite feats for Ur-Priest doesn't help the MT at all except making the Ur-Priest MT route more attractive.
archerpwr 05-05-08, 01:07 AM	Nice joke. Including two of the prequisite feats for Ur-Priest doesn't help the MT at all except making the Ur-Priest MT route more attractive. Not know what earth spell does? I'm serious. MT doesn't suck. Losing 3 levels sucks.
StevenO 05-05-08, 02:11 PM	It's true, the Earth Spell is lost on me which may have everything make sense. Where and/or what is it to make that work? I am not one who'd say the MT sucks. I'd agree that losing three casting levels early hurts badly but anything that replaces those lost levels is probably too good on its own.
archerpwr 05-05-08, 04:20 PM	It's true, the Earth Spell is lost on me which may have everything make sense. Where and/or what is it to make that work? I am not one who'd say the MT sucks. I'd agree that losing three casting levels early hurts badly but anything that replaces those lost levels is probably too good on its own. Earth spell fully RAI and RAW lets you do this: Wizard 5/ Mindbender 1/ Ur Priest 1/ MT 10. Level 7 is a little weak, but only a slight bump in the progression.
Bloodsoul 05-05-08, 08:43 PM	Only fix I ever imagined was giving the Epic MT the same caster progression as the regular MT (regular progression seems worth the bonus-feat-every-six-levels, but normally?). Actually, it's what's been giving me trouble making an Epic Ultimate Magus. Give it progression similar to regular UM or Epic MT?
Bergtann 05-06-08, 03:01 AM	I assume the UM follows the normal "numeric progression" rule, since no exception is stated. The MT progression is an exception, not the rule. Earth spell fully RAI and RAW lets you do this: Wizard 5/ Mindbender 1/ Ur Priest 1/ MT 10. Level 7 is a little weak, but only a slight bump in the progression. I have lately begun to question the efficiency of earth spell and sanctum spell. It seems to me that on the first MT level, you could lose the MT benefits when the feat in question does not apply. Also, you might have a problem if you level in such a situation.
JaronK 05-06-08, 01:14 PM	I assume the UM follows the normal "numeric progression" rule, since no exception is stated. The MT progression is an exception, not the rule. I have lately begun to question the efficiency of earth spell and sanctum spell. It seems to me that on the first MT level, you could lose the MT benefits when the feat in question does not apply. Also, you might have a problem if you level in such a situation. The feat always applies, because the requirement is "ability to cast 2nd level spells" not "has a 2nd level spell ready right now." Otherwise, you'd lose MT casting every time you just cast all your 2nd level spells anyway. JaronK
StevenO 05-06-08, 01:44 PM	I'll repeat myself: What/where is Earth Spell? Last time I checked MT required 2nd level arcane and divine spells which means you need Ur-Priest 2 to qualify. Even Wizard5/Mindbender1/UrP1 has some severe problems with getting all the skill requirements filled for those classes.
Shadowhowler 05-06-08, 02:33 PM	I gotta agree with JaronK. While the MT is not as powerfull an option as being a stright caster... it is loaded with versatility and endurance spellwise. Also, more then a few people have already found ways to wriggle 9th level Arcane and Divine spells pre-epic out of a MT using build that, IMO, any attempts to 'buff' the PrC only risks making more broken characters. The MT may not be the most powerful option avalible... but thats ok, not every class or PrC should be. It is, however, a very viable way to play a Wizard/Cleric where without the MT class you would have to be SO sadly nehind the power curve to do so. Think of it this way... a MT does not rival a Full caster for power... but, is that a bad thing? I don't think so. Say you have a 4 person Party... a Fighter, Rogue, a MT, and a Monk (or Bard, or whatever you want really) no your party still have arcane and divine spells... but this time, while the caster provides a LOT of resource to the party... in a single fight, he does not completly overshadow the other characters the way a full caster might. Anyway... I think MT is fine as is.
archerpwr 05-06-08, 03:24 PM	I have lately begun to question the efficiency of earth spell and sanctum spell. It seems to me that on the first MT level, you could lose the MT benefits when the feat in question does not apply. I need you to read 3 things: 1) Mystic Theurge spell progression & spell prereqs 2) Ur priest spell progression (notably the level 2 spells) 3) Earth spell (races of stone) Only the sage gets to pull rules out of thin air. Are you the sage?
JaronK 05-06-08, 04:36 PM	I'll repeat myself: What/where is Earth Spell? Races of Stone. Last time I checked MT required 2nd level arcane and divine spells which means you need Ur-Priest 2 to qualify. Even Wizard5/Mindbender1/UrP1 has some severe problems with getting all the skill requirements filled for those classes. Earth Spell lets you cast second level spells as an Ur Priest 1. JaronK
StevenO 05-06-08, 07:34 PM	Requirements: Spell Focus(Evil), Iron Will, Earth Spell I'd add that. "What is Earth Spell?" Races of Stone. Earth Spell lets you cast second level spells as an Ur Priest 1. JaronK Thanks JaronK that explains a lot although I don't have RoS to see what it does. Makes my comment about adding those requirements to MT as a joke even better as you'd be looking at the Ur-Priest's prereq feats plus a "cheat" to get to the basic MT even faster. Even with those abuses it doesn't help the Skill problems a Wizard5/MB1/UrP1 would have barring even more specific feats and/or stupidly high ability scores that you normally shouldn't get.
archerpwr 05-06-08, 08:31 PM	Even with those abuses it doesn't help the Skill problems a Wizard5/MB1/UrP1 would have barring even more specific feats and/or stupidly high ability scores that you normally shouldn't get. Requires something like a middle aged human for 19 int, middle aged +int race, or able learner. Retraining rules (PH2) reduce the int required by 1 iirc. Tough, but doable.
StevenO 05-06-08, 11:21 PM	Requires something like a middle aged human for 19 int, middle aged +int race, or able learner. Retraining rules (PH2) reduce the int required by 1 iirc. Tough, but doable. I didn't say impossible, just highly impractical. It is a little like the Rog1/Wiz4/UnseenSeer1/ArcaneTrickster which CAN work but only under extreme conditions. Coming from the view of point buy stats I think builds should be acheivable without needing a 16+ for starting stats.
archerpwr 05-07-08, 04:33 PM	I didn't say impossible, just highly impractical. Eh, I'm actually playing this in a game right now: Transmutation domain wiz 5 Flaws and such got me able learner, earth spell (next level), and ur priest prereqs. The DM is fine with me retraining away earth spell after MT 1. Of course there is only me and one other player (a rogue), so we need the divine casting. Able learner or retraining rules make things easier. We rolled stats (both around 40 pb w/ PHB method).
Spikes01k 05-07-08, 04:49 PM	Have you read the rules for MyTh above level 10? It starts only getting one set of spell casting every level, alternating between arcane and divine. Going Epic, you ditch MyTh so fast it's not funny. Personally, I'm not sure that MyTh is that underpowered. Yes, it struggles to keep up with the power curve of a single class caster, but multi-classing casters always do. In a twinked out group, he's going to struggle, under a rational DM who understands rule 0 and doesn't run a "You get 8 hours uninterupted sleep" after every 2-3 encounters, it's actually quite a nice class. 17/13 isn't that awful at the end of the day. Please expand on what your saying? I don't understand. From what I read you can't take a class past their limit till epic. With the extension to a 16 level PrC would give them, eventually, with the use of two feats, full casting abilities in both the divine and arcane classes.
malignor 05-07-08, 05:06 PM	Response to OP Personally, I've never even seen one played, so I dunno if it needs fixing. If I were to pick a fix based on the numbers, I'd say that the biggest problem is spell resistance and effective caster level. Boosting the real caster level to full is, in my mind, overpowered. It suddenly becomes a must-have class that makes its component core classes (whatever they may be) look pitiful. Instead, I suggest the following: - Able to cast arcane spells as divine spells, bypassing arcane spell failure. - Sum of all spellcaster levels is the effective caster level for purposes such as dispel magic checks, activating scrolls, bypassing spell resistance and similar caster-level checks. NOT for such things as duration, damage etc. These alone provides a significant boost to the class (unhampered use of armor, magic is equally potent for caster level checks). It's true that the "9th level spell" problem still exists, but there should be a trade-off to having such a massive repertoire of magic and so many darn spell slots.
DeathlessJuan 05-09-08, 07:45 PM	+1 I am changing my mind about my previous post. Malignor has the gist of it. I have always seen a Mystic Therge as more of a defensive magic user anyway. Making this a 14 level prestige class like True Necromancer would be ideal but no other changes than what Malignor suggested. You'll get 9th level spells (if wiz/cleric or similiar) by level 20.
AtsuiShoto 05-09-08, 11:25 PM	As is, a vanilla MT character starts out weak-ish (as most casters do), gimps itself badly just as it starts becoming decently powerful, starts recovering by mid levels, and ends up with about the same usefulness (of a differing variety) as other casters at mid-high levels. Then, at the highest levels before epic, it gets once again outshined by single-classed casters. My only fix for the Mystic Theurge would be to make it a base class. The spell advancement would be a bit stunted, but mostly only at higher levels, and even then it would still provide limited access to a handful of the highest-level spells.
TheCobra 05-10-08, 02:22 AM	While the mystic theurge maybe be a little weak, it's the epic progression that bothers me.
JaronK 05-10-08, 03:08 AM	My only fix for the Mystic Theurge would be to make it a base class. The spell advancement would be a bit stunted, but mostly only at higher levels, and even then it would still provide limited access to a handful of the highest-level spells. They call that "Archivist" and it's one of the Big 5 now for good reason. Then again, the spell advancement isn't stunted at all. JaronK