Post/Author/DateTime	Post
burnt_to_crisp 10-21-07, 06:29 PM	this is my 4th try at making this PrC... i made other PrCs before, but i've had a lot of trouble with this one. first it was a 10 level way overpowered PrC, then it turned into a 5 level way way underpowered PrC, then it was an acceptable (though slightly underpowered) 3.0 5 level PrC, and now i'm trying to 3.5 it. it's now back to being a 10 level PrC, but it's also apparently back to being overpowered. i love playing sorcerers, but they're known for being less then equal to their wizard counterparts. this PrC was meant to balance it out. please excuse me that i'm not adding a decription paragraph, i'm terrible with those. but you get the messege; spontaneous arcane casters who find a deeper connection to magic (i know i use that phrase too much, but i'm realy bad with descriptions). as i was saying, the prc is probably overpowerful. i need help with decidng what has to go, what can stay and what has to move to what level. also, the requirements aren't good enough. if anyone can help me with those i'd appreciate it. feel free to comment about anything, if some of the abilities themselves might be written badly or are too powerful please tell me. the only things i realy need to stay in the prc in some form are "Emotional caster" and "Natural caster", everything else can go or be changed freely. **please don't give any criticism if you havn't read the PrC! it happend before, and it's realy annoying** EDITED TO INCLUDE NEW CHANGES - IS NOW THE DM APPROVED VERSION True Innate Caster Requirements: Skills: spellcarft 8, knowledge (arcane) 5. Feats: still spell, silent spell and spell penetration Special: Must be able to spontaneously cast at least 5 2nd-lvl spells per day. Must have at least once acted on a logic-defying emotional impulse Class Skills True Innate Caster's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are bluff (Cha), concentration (con), Diplomacy (cha), gather information (cha), intimidate (cha), knowledge (arcana) (int), spellcraft (int), spot (wis), listen (wis). Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier. Hit Die: d4. BAB: as a sorcerer good save: will full spell progression lvl special 1 | Emotional caster 2 | Ethereal materials 3 | Arcane sight 4 | Magic manipulation 5 | A magical body 6 | Silence fueled by magic 7 | Natural caster 8 | Magic manipulation 9 | Magically fueled stillness 10 | Magical contact Emotional caster (su): The innate caster's magic is tied directly to his emotions and feelings. When he is experiencing a strong emotion there is a magical surge, affecting his spells and even the environment around him. When angry, for example, at low levels sparks come out of his eyes while at higher levels black clouds appear on the ceiling and a low hum can be heard. "Negative" emotions such as sadness or fear cause his magic to weaken while "positive" emotions such as bravery and rage cause his magic to strengthen. At the DM's discretion add or subtracted a number from +3 to -3 to the DC and his effective caster level, depending on the caster's emotions at the time (for example, +1 is somewhere around being angry because of enemy taunts, +2 is blazing hatred and rage, such as from the rage spell or barbarian rage and +3 means the loss of a dear friend or family member while the enemy gloats over the body.) Strong emotions no longer inhibit the innate caster from his magic, they now instead fuel it. The rage spell or similar effects, being in 'panic' fear status or suffering from any emotional-related mind-affecting phenomenon prohibiting the caster from casting his spells no longer do so. Ethereal materials (su): The innate caster no longer needs material components to cast spells, he uses his newly-found enhanced connection to magic to fuel his spells. However, the small extra amount of power he can channel to pay for the spells isn't enough to pay for the more costly material components; the innate caster still needs to use materials that cost 1 gp or more. In affect he gains the eschew materials feat. Arcane Sight (Su): The innate caster's connection to magic is so strong he can see its flow and its affects. Starting 3rd level he can use arcane sight at will. This ability functions like the spell of the same name, except that its duration is concentration. Magic manipulation: Just as a wizard gains added control over his spells from his studies, the innate caster gains control from his fundamental link to magic. At 4th level and again at 8th level he may choose one metamagic feat for which he can qualify. A magical body (su): The innate caster's connection to magic is so strong that he can now use it to enhance his own body; his mind, speed and resilience are now enhanced. Starting 5th level he can now add a bonus equal to his charisma bonus on all saving throws. Natural caster: His almost complete connection to magic allows the true innate caster to quickly and easily modify his spells and cast them just as he would normally. Using metamagic no longer increases the casting time of the spell to a full round action. Silence fueled by magic (su): The innate caster can use his connection with magic to forgo the magical words used to cast spells. In affect he gains the sudden silence feat, only usable 3 times per day. Magically fueled Stillness (su): The innate caster can manipulate magic using his connection to it alone, with no need for movements. In affect he gains the sudden still feat, only usable 3 times per day. Magical contact (su): As the innate caster's link to magic is complete his ability to control his spells is stronger then ever. Whenever he uses a metamagic feat, the feat's level increase upon a spell is reduced by one (this can't reduce an increase to less than one level, or less than zero levels if the increase is already +0).
vorpo 10-21-07, 07:31 PM	Special: Must be able to spontaneously cast arcane spells as a 5th level caster. I think similar statement has been argued before. Caster level 5 = 5th level caster? If so, a Sorc 1/Wiz 4 with Practiced Spellcaster (Sorc) can qualify. Therefore, it should be changed to (assuming you were hoping for 5th lvl sorc) "Ability to spontaneously cast 3rd lvl arcane spells". While this still allows other spontaneous arcane casters like warmages and bard and beguiler, at least you kicked pure wizard off the list. With all that said, this class is broken. Why? With this PrC, there will never be any pure sorcs again (as rare as it might be, some really do play pure sorcs). All other PrC eligible for sorc make sorc suffer in some ways. You know a class is broken when it becomes a must have for a base class. I don't even need to read the rest of the post to make this comment, since sorc gains absolutely NOTHING after first lvl (aside from spells).
DeciusNero 10-21-07, 07:40 PM	I would get rid of the "Cha 16" - you shouldn't use minimum ability scores as requirements, as suggested in the DMG.
vorpo 10-21-07, 07:44 PM	I would get rid of the "Cha 16" - you shouldn't use minimum ability scores as requirements, as suggested in the DMG. Now we can start the argument that even WotC doesn't even follow those suggestion to the word.
StevenO 10-21-07, 08:01 PM	No real need to specify CHA 16 in prereqs.as "spontaneously cast 5th level spells" about covers that. If that isn't good enough just requiring the character has a bonus spell slot of 3rd level or higher would do the same thing. Now that the mechanics are fixed the entire class is overpowered. A sorcerer (which you may mistakenly say is underpowered) gives up almost nothing to enter this class for a large number of power ups. You may have a DM driven entry requirement but those generally shouldn't be a factor to "balancing" a class and the two feat prereqs quickly get covered by other class abilities you grant including two bonus metamagic feats. A breakdown of the problems/abilities. Skill points: Why does this need four skill points? Double what the normal sorcerer gets to this is the first of many increases. Emotional Caster: A DM determined bonus is ripe for abuse and misuse. Negating "mind affecting" effects on spellcasting is also very powerful. Ethereal Materials: Free bonus feat (granted a minor one that often gets houserule to sorcerers for free anyway.) Arcane Sight: Free powered up Detect Magic ability. Magic Manipulation: Bonus Metamagic feats easily compensate for "wasting" prereqs. Magical Body: Exchange what is probably at most +2 hp/level (Con 14) for what IS going to be at least +3 hp/level (and probably much more) is a huge increase in hp. Natural Caster: Eliminates the Sorcerer's one inconvienence when using metamagic at all times. Can already be done using the spontaneous MM variation from the PHB2 (no speed reduction a number of time in exchange for familiar) which should be good enough for most character. Little need for Arcane Preparation when none of your spells are delayed by MM. "Fueled" abilities: A pair of tripple bonus feats!!! Didn't you just almost give this class the ability by removing the casting delay for MM? Here you are effectively giving another +1 spell level to MM those highest level slots you couldn't otherwise access. Also superceeded by "capstone" ability. Magical Contract: Reduce all MM feats used on a spell by one level, with no casting time increase, is EXTREMELY powerful. With this you've just eliminated ALL casting components except for those with a GP value as you ignore material components (Etherial Materials) and get Silence AND Still reduced so the don't modify spell levels. With Enlarge spell all your spells have twice their normal range and Extend doubles all durations both of which would be free. One could argue all your spells would also gain a free level (3rd level cast as 4th level) with Heighten Spell. Not that you'll alway have all the MM feats to apply but here your spell has gained an effective +5 levels without changing the needed spellslot and this is just using stuff in the PHB. The cost reduction for Empower, Maximize, and Quicken also can't be ignored. I'll admit many of these may seem like little things but they are all power increases for little cost that stack together for what can be an overhelming effect.
StevenO 10-21-07, 08:15 PM	True Innate Caster Requirements: Skills: spellcarft 8, knowledge (arcane) 5. Feats: still spell, silent spell, charisma 16 (can't think of something better) Special: Must be able to spontaneously cast arcane spells as a 5th level caster. Must have at least once acted on a logic-defying emotional impulse I must have been sleeping the first pass through to miss the 5th level caster requirement. I guess my thinking 5th level spells shows just how uncommon assigning a caster level would be. As far as I can tell there is no reason that shouldn't be the ability to cast 3rd level spells spontaneously instead (besides Sor6 is +1 BAB and all Saves) unless you are trying to leave room for another five level PrC pre 20th level. Using caster level also make things like Practiced Spellcaster able to get around the requirements and allows Warlocks to be used to meet the caster level requirements even when they don't meet the spellcasting requirement.
burnt_to_crisp 10-21-07, 08:36 PM	no one, and i do mean no one, will ever take pure sorc. for the exact reason you mentioned, there is no point in it. any PrC is better then pure sorcerer. there are plenty of PrCs out there that don't hurt the sorcerer, but they're all meant for the wizard. if it's because of many feats required or whatever. i mean to correct that. but besides that, how can i balance out the PrC? as for the caster level issue, you're right. i never thought of that. 3rd level spells only come at lvl 6 for sorc, so i might make it 2nd and make sure the skills make it so you can only enter after 5th level. what do you think?
vorpo 10-21-07, 08:52 PM	no one, and i do mean no one, will ever take pure sorc. for the exact reason you mentioned, there is no point in it. any PrC is better then pure sorcerer. there are plenty of PrCs out there that don't hurt the sorcerer, but they're all meant for the wizard. if it's because of many feats required or whatever. i mean to correct that. but besides that, how can i balance out the PrC? as for the caster level issue, you're right. i never thought of that. 3rd level spells only come at lvl 6 for sorc, so i might make it 2nd and make sure the skills make it so you can only enter after 5th level. what do you think? Wrong!:bounce: There is actually a thread in this forum discussing a person playing pure sorc all the way to lvl 20. So, no matter how many times you do mean no one, there is someone. :P I do agree PrC is supposed to be better than base. And I guess 2nd lvl spells will work just as well if you want to keep it obtainable at lvl 5. Question: Would this work as an entry requirement: Ability to spontaneously cast at least 5 2nd-lvl spells work? (5 for 4 due to sorc lvl 5 and 1 due to high charisma, this will not reword your requirement for cha 16 and is definitely achievable by any pure spontaneous arcane caster)
burnt_to_crisp 10-21-07, 08:59 PM	stuff sorry, i was too slow on answering vorpo and i didn't notice you replyed. well, i'll add another feat in there and drop the free metamagics to balance it out. as everyone seem to tell me, i'll also drop the charisma requirment. what else should i put there? about the skill points: sorcerers don't recieve enough skills. they have 3 skills they need as well as many others they want but only get 2 + int per day. at least wizards have a high int. the emotional caster thing is at the DM discresion. no misuse, since the DM won't allow it. Magical Body is powerful, i know. does that realy mean it has to go? i don't see a problem with Natural Caster. as you said, there are other ways to get it by now. the intention with the "Fueled" abilities was to remove the need of spell components, since it was supposed to be 'natural casting' of spell or something like that. it's just still and silent spell. they're hardly ever usefull and it's only 3/day. i copied Magical contact from the incantrix. it specificly states that the minimum 'price' level of metamagics remains +1. that means there are no free metamagics. that also means there's still a point in the "Fueled" abilities. any other pointers?
burnt_to_crisp 10-21-07, 09:02 PM	Wrong!:bounce: There is actually a thread in this forum discussing a person playing pure sorc all the way to lvl 20. So, no matter how many times you do mean no one, there is someone. :P I do agree PrC is supposed to be better than base. And I guess 2nd lvl spells will work just as well if you want to keep it obtainable at lvl 5. Question: Would this work as an entry requirement: Ability to spontaneously cast at least 5 2nd-lvl spells work? (5 for 4 due to sorc lvl 5 and 1 due to high charisma, this will not reword your requirement for cha 16 and is definitely achievable by any pure spontaneous arcane caster) ok, you got me, there realy is someone like that (though i can't imagine why) your suggestion is a realy good idea, i think i'll adopt it ^^ thanks! EDIT: oops... double post... i'm sorry... EDIT the 2nd: i reconsidered 'A Magical Body'. after going through the X stat to Y bonus thread over in CharOp i saw that such an ability was unheard of. how about making it like divine grace, meaning CHA bonus to all saves?
rhig 10-22-07, 01:01 PM	about the skill points: sorcerers don't recieve enough skills. they have 3 skills they need as well as many others they want but only get 2 + int per day. at least wizards have a high int. Sorcerers are not supposed to be skillful. You said yourself that they only really need 3 skills. I think you should change "A magical body" to add your CHA modifier to your fortitude save. It fits the idea behind the ability better than Divine Grace. Also, making it like Divine Grace would be overpowered, because CHA is your most important Attribute and therefore will be alot higher than a Paladin's CHA, making this ability even 2 times more effective with a Sorc than with a Paladin. Magic manipulation is really pushing it. Seriously, even some of the most broken Prestige Classes don't hand out so many bonus feats. And I think that you should take out those 7th and 9th level abilities and add something that helps overcoming SR. It fits the whole "One with the nature of magic" thing that this PrC stands for alot better than those abilities, and having slightly underpowered abilities like something that helps overcoming SR and adding CHA to your Fortitude might balance your PrC. Remember, you can't have a PrC that has only better-than-average abilities, it takes all the balance out of the game. Of course, this is just my opinion, and I could be wrong.
burnt_to_crisp 10-22-07, 01:20 PM	i already said i'd drop magic manipulation. sorcerers only recieve 2 skills per level. that's less then what they *need*, not want. every class gets skills based on what they need, the socerer doesn't get enough. a divine grace like ability wouldn't be overpowered, in my opinion. there are plenty of ways to get it, a level of paladin is just one of them. this PrC gets it in a relativly late stage, there's nothing wrong with it. making it fortitude only is underpowered. you can't have a PrC that has only better-than-average abilities what are you talking about? Ethereal materials is very lame and was taken specificly to be an underpowered ability as well as fitting the flavor of the PrC. Arcane sight isn't that good. it's good but there are other ways to get it (Dweomerkeeper 2 is one way, for example). Silence fueled by magic and Magically fueled stillness are hardly ever usefull and it's only 3/day. it's full of decent abilities, but also blank spots and subpar abilities. besides, overcoming SR has nothing to do with the flavor of the PrC, its just a bonus.
rhig 10-22-07, 01:52 PM	sorcerers only recieve 2 skills per level. that's less then what they *need*, not want. every class gets skills based on what they need, the socerer doesn't get enough. Oh, is that so? Clerics need Knowledge (Religion) as much as a Sorc needs Knowledge (Arcana), and they also need Spellcraft and Concentration. Clerics are also exepected to be the ones that have ranks in Heal (unlike Gather Info, Bluff and Dimplomacy, that everyone expect the Rogue to have, not the Sorc) And yet, Clerics also only get a 2+int skills per level. So do you still think that "every class" gets skills based on what they need, or are you just looking enviously at the Wizard class? And anyway, it's not like putting 12 into INT (or taking human as a race) is a huge drawback for a Sorc, seeing as the only ability scores he needs are Cha, Dex and Con. a divine grace like ability wouldn't be overpowered, in my opinion. there are plenty of ways to get it, a level of paladin is just one of them. this PrC gets it in a relativly late stage, there's nothing wrong with it. making it fortitude only is underpowered. Aha, there are plenty of ways to get Divine Grace, but yours is the most convinient. Taking two (not one) levels of Paladin is not something that you would do, and every other way to get that ability will do you more harm than good, and for a good reason - characters with Cha as their main attribute are not supposed to get that ability without losing something very precious (like caster levels). The fact that your character gets the ability at a relatively late stage changes nothing, since the ability becomes better as you gain levels and increase your Cha. Think of it this way - will a Paladin of the same level stand any chance of making this ability even half as good as you make it, as a Sorc? Arcane sight isn't that good. it's good but there are other ways to get it (Dweomerkeeper 2 is one way, for example). Dweomerkeeper requires you to dip for at least one level of Cleric, as well as take a feat that you probably don't want and spend EXP that you don't want to spend to make a magic item that you probably don't need. Also, Arcane Sight at will might not be overpowered, but it sure as heck isn't underpowered. You'd use it alot during the game, just not for combat situations.
burnt_to_crisp 10-22-07, 02:17 PM	Dweomerkeeper requires you to dip for at least one level of Cleric, as well as take a feat that you probably don't want and spend EXP that you don't want to spend to make a magic item that you probably don't need. [QUOTE] what are you talking about? item creation is a valid way. many spellcasters make their own items to save money. just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's a waste of a feat and xp. [QUOTE]Oh, is that so? Clerics need Knowledge (Religion) as much as a Sorc needs Knowledge (Arcana), and they also need Spellcraft and Concentration. Clerics are also exepected to be the ones that have ranks in Heal (unlike Gather Info, Bluff and Dimplomacy, that everyone expect the Rogue to have, not the Sorc) And yet, Clerics also only get a 2+int skills per level. So do you still think that "every class" gets skills based on what they need, or are you just looking enviously at the Wizard class? And anyway, it's not like putting 12 into INT (or taking human as a race) is a huge drawback for a Sorc, seeing as the only ability scores he needs are Cha, Dex and Con. actually, a sorcerer is by far more sutable for being a party's face then a rogue. a rogue has very little use for charisma, unlike a sorcerer. the only reason the rogue is the face is because he has by far more skill points. Aha, there are plenty of ways to get Divine Grace, but yours is the most convinient... oh realy? the Witch Hunter and the Martyred Champion PrCs are both meant for spellcasters and both get it. a paladin can put as much charisma as he wants, and therefore can be just as good. saying that 'the only ability scores a sorcerer needs are Cha, Dex and Con' is a very old fashioned view. it all depends on how you make the charachter. a gish charachter with 2 levels of paladin and sorcerer caster levels is completly viable.
rhig 10-22-07, 02:53 PM	actually, a sorcerer is by far more sutable for being a party's face then a rogue. a rogue has very little use for charisma, unlike a sorcerer. the only reason the rogue is the face is because he has by far more skill points. Also because he has more Cha-based skills (A sorc only has bluff). Aha, there are plenty of ways to get Divine Grace, but yours is the most convinient... oh realy? the Witch Hunter and the Martyred Champion PrCs are both meant for spellcasters and both get it. A Witch Hunter also gives up a Spellcasting Level for getting this ability, and your PrC doesn't. That was my whole point. And the witch hunter is meant for a Gish (unlike your PrC). Look at it: Only gets an additional Spellcasting level every even-numbered level, full BAB, requires +5 BAB and the Track feat, and a relatively low-level spell. As for Martyred Champion - You lose 2 Caster Levels, and entering the PrC is alot harder to enter than your PrC. a paladin can put as much charisma as he wants, and therefore can be just as good. No, a Paladin can put an amount of Cha equal to what a Sorcerer of his level would put, but he will not be just as good. He gives up other attributes that are important for his abilities, whereas a Sorcerer doesn't give up any attribute with your PrC. saying that 'the only ability scores a sorcerer needs are Cha, Dex and Con' is a very old fashioned view. it all depends on how you make the charachter. a gish charachter with 2 levels of paladin and sorcerer caster levels is completly viable. Yes, it is completely viable, but your PrC is strictly not meant for Gishes. Divine Grace is an ability that suits Gishes because they have more attributes to take into account than a pure spellcaster or a pure melee-type.
burnt_to_crisp 10-22-07, 03:13 PM	a gish that puts a high emphasis on his spellcasting attribute is just as good, and sometimes even better then ones who do not. gishes with very high charisma are perfectly viable if they're mainly spellcasting oriented. besides, the difference between the 14 cha of a normal paladin and the 18/20 cha of a sorcerer isn't big enough to cause a problem. EDIT: but enough about that, is there realy a reason not to put 'a magical body'? and is the PrC balanced now? just for referance, in case you don't want to read the whole thread, the table is now: lvl special 1 | Emotional caster 2 | Ethereal materials 3 | Arcane sight 4 | 5 | A magical body (cha to saves, not to HP) 6 | Natural caster 7 | Silence fueled by magic 8 | 9 | Magically fueled stillness 10 | Magical contact
vorpo 10-22-07, 04:07 PM	I thought you were gonna change the entry requirement.
burnt_to_crisp 10-22-07, 04:12 PM	I thought you were gonna change the entry requirement. i am changing it, i didn't think i was supposed to write it again... the new requirements are: Skills: spellcarft 8, knowledge (arcane) 5. Feats: still spell, silent spell and spell penetration Special: Must be able to spontaneously cast at least 5 2nd-lvl spells per day. Must have at least once acted on a logic-defying emotional impulse
vorpo 10-22-07, 05:14 PM	People usually just edit their OP post so that new comers always see the newest version.
burnt_to_crisp 10-23-07, 01:32 AM	People usually just edit their OP post so that new comers always see the newest version. OK, done. thanks for letting me know and sorry for being a n00b