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| Kuro_Khan09-19-07, 01:15 PM | This is my attempt at a Warlock / Binder prestige class. I wasn't really in love with the Anima Mage and the Invoker of The Eternal Souls flavor in that they treated the vestiges badly. I'd rather have a prc in which they work together. Armored Invoker is a little wordy... How's the power level? Low? High? Leave comments! Thanks. http://www.blizzard.com/inblizz/fanart/images/screens/ss365.jpg The Soul Invoker: Hit Die: d6 Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Soul Binding +1, Soul Guardian, +1 level of existing invoking class 2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 Soul Binding +2, +1 level of existing invoking class 3rd +2 +1 +1 +3 Soul Binding +3, +1 level of existing invoking class 4th +3 +1 +1 +4 Soul Binding +4, Battle Caster, +1 level of existing invoking class 5th +3 +1 +1 +4 Soul Binding +5, Vestige Ally, +1 level of existing invoking class 6th +4 +2 +2 +5 Soul Binding +6, +1 level of existing invoking class 7th +5 +2 +2 +5 Soul Binding +7, +1 level of existing invoking class 8th +6 +2 +2 +6 Soul Binding +8, +1 level of existing invoking class 9th +6 +3 +3 +6 Soul Binding +9, +1 level of existing invoking class 10th +7 +3 +3 +7 Soul Binding +10, Vestige Patron, Supernatural Invocation, +1 level of existing invoking class Class Skills (2 + Int modifier per level): Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Kowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Use Magic Device (Cha). Entry Requirements Alignment: Any evil or any chaotic Skills: Knowledge (the planes) 8 ranks Feats: Improved Binding Spell-Like Abilities: Ability to produce a 2d6 Eldritch Blast Special: Ability to bind a 3rd-level vestige, as a class ability Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Soul Invokers gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor initially. At 4th level, a soul invoker gains proficiency with medium armor and light shields. Soul Binding Bonus: At each soul invoker level, your soul binding ability improved as if you had also gained a level in the binder class. Your soul invoker levels and binder levels stack for the purpose of determining your bonus on binding checks, the effectiveness of your vestige-granted abilities, your ability to bind higher-level vestiges, and the number if vestiges you can bind. You do not, however, gain any other benefit a binder would have gained. Soul Guardian (Su): Levels of soul invoker stack with levels of binder for determining what abilities you would gain from the Soul Guardian ability of the binder. For example, a 5th-level binder/4th-level soul invoker would have both the immunity to fear and slippery mind abilities of Soul Guardian. Spellcasting: At each soul invoker level, your caster level as a warlock improves by one. Levels of this prestige class stack with the warlock class levels to determine his eldritch blast damage and his eldritch blast caster level. You also gain new invocations known as if you gained a level in the warlock class. You do not gain any other class abilities of the warlock (Damage Reduction, Energy Resistance, etc…) Battle Caster(Ex): At 4th level, you gain Battle Caster as a bonus feat (Complete Arcane). Vestige Ally (Ex): Due to numerous mutually beneficial pacts with various vestiges, you now enjoy a +4 bonus on your binding checks. However, if you have broken a pact within the past 24 hours, for example with the Expel Vestige feat, you take a -4 penalty on all your binding checks with any vestige, in addition to any other penalties you may have accrued. This bonus stacks with the Skilled Pact Making feat. Vestige Patron (Su): Vestiges you have summoned now consider you as a friend to them (as much as they are able to have feelings), and thus may make a rushed binding check with no penalty (normally a -10 penalty). Once per day, in addition, you may contact a vestige without having to draw its seal. Contacting a vestige in this way is a full-round action that provokes an attack of opportunity. Neither of these abilities may be used if you have broken a pact within the past 24 hours. Supernatural Invocation (Su): Once per day per soul invoker level, you may use an invocation as a supernatural ability. As a supernatural ability, the invocation does not have somatic or verbal components, is neither arcane nor divine, does not provoke an attack or opportunity and has no spell failure chance as related to casting in armor. |
| Kuro_Khan09-20-07, 11:54 AM | Any comments on it? I plan on playing this class some time today, I want to see someone else's opinion on it, as one of the other players thinks its broken. Then again, he thinks the warlock class as a whole is broken, because its able to blast and blast and blast and blast. |
| Sagetim09-21-07, 08:52 PM | Any comments on it? I plan on playing this class some time today, I want to see someone else's opinion on it, as one of the other players thinks its broken. Then again, he thinks the warlock class as a whole is broken, because its able to blast and blast and blast and blast. looks like it would be fun to play to me. It would be heavily persecuted ICly though. 'Mixing demon bloodlines with summoning of the most foul body sharing monstrosities!? Double smite time...HOOOOOOOO!" really get alot of paladins on your ass. As well as witch hunters, bounty hunters, mercenaries, and probably the occasional angry mob. heh...makes me think of this could be how the prc started though... three young men, both quite handsome, are being chased by seperate angry mobs out of town. By coincidence they meet up during their fleeing and exchange greetings... man 1, " how goes it? why are you two being chased?" man 2, " I bind spirits and willingly share my body with supernatural beings called Vestiges, I think it's a nice thing to do for them...I mean, they don't get out much, ya know?" Man 3, " I'm a sorcerer. I blow things up that displease me. I'm so puzzled that they would not bow down to me, and by glorious dragon blooded powers." Man 1, " oh? I'm a warlock...my grandfather traded his soul to a demon for his entire bloodline ot have power. I miss grandpa..." They continue to run for a while... Man 3 speaks up, " you know, the angry mobs have combined. If he drop one of us to them the other two can make a break for-" At that moment both man 1 and man 2, tired of man 3 being all uppity about his draconic heritage, kick him in the shins. Man 3 goes down, and both Man 1 and Man 2 give each other high fives and escape the mobs. So began the partnership that formed this PrC |
| Kuro_Khan09-21-07, 09:08 PM | Lol, funny response :). Well I played a warlock/binder last night (just lvl 5, so no PrC yet), but the funny thing is, we have a paladin. And I'm pretty sure the paladin's player has never read Tome of Magic, so I got an instant detect evil from the player when I was talking to the vestige :). Me and the other player (a CN Wild Mage) are really going to mess with the pally :-D |
| Sagetim09-21-07, 09:11 PM | Lol, funny response :). Well I played a warlock/binder last night (just lvl 5, so no PrC yet), but the funny thing is, we have a paladin. And I'm pretty sure the paladin's player has never read Tome of Magic, so I got an instant detect evil from the player when I was talking to the vestige :). Me and the other player (a CN Wild Mage) are really going to mess with the pally :-D oh I'd love to be in your group. Hell, then I'd play the binder/warlock, and you could be the warlock/binder. Then we'd both wind up as the inventors of the PrC and REALLY screw with the paladin. mmmm, CG Bindey 'lock. Also: vestiges don't make you come out as evil. unless you're guy is evil alignment, he won't show up as evil. a witch hunter would use detect supernatural or something, but detect evil is really not a good measuring stick when your trying to find people who practice something that isn't inherently evil. heh...fey powered warlock. |
| Mordin09-22-07, 08:43 PM | What book is the Binder in? It looks like a very cool class but not knowing much about the Warlock (never played one) and the Binder I wouldn't be able to help with any potential balancing issues. Other than that just the role playing aspect of this class sounds super fun. :plotting: :evillaugh |
| Kuro_Khan09-23-07, 12:22 AM | Descriptions from Wiki... "Binder is a character class in Dungeons & Dragons, introduced in Tome of Magic. They derive their power by making "pacts" with "vestiges". These vestiges give them powers that are generally reusable an unlimited number of times per day. Different vestiges can be called on each day with a Binder gaining the ability to make multiple pacts simultaneously as they increase in level. The literature in Tome of Magic is very specific regarding vestiges. They are the souls of legendary beings who have been "evicted" from the universe. They make deals with binders so that they can experience the joys of existence once again. However, the names of most of the vestiges, as well as their descriptions, come from demons in Christian legend. Tome of Magic provides several adaptation options for the vestiges including making them totem spirits. Binders have no alignment restrictions, although those of lawful or good alignments are often disturbed by the strange appearance and nature of the vestiges. Chaotic and non-good alignments are suggested because of the nature of their abilities." "Warlocks are users of spell-like abilities either in-born or granted through a pact with some unearthly being such as a demon or a fey. Since a warlock's invocations are not normal spells, they may be used while wearing light armor and any number of times. Warlocks can later acquire energy resistance, toughened skin, fast healing, and the ability to force magical items to do their bidding." Basically an amalgam of these classes will give you more spell-like/supernatural abilities than you can shake a Tarrasque-sized stick at. Yay for never running out of spell slots for the day! |
| Sagetim09-23-07, 05:16 PM | Descriptions from Wiki... "Binder is a character class in Dungeons & Dragons, introduced in Tome of Magic. They derive their power by making "pacts" with "vestiges". These vestiges give them powers that are generally reusable an unlimited number of times per day. Different vestiges can be called on each day with a Binder gaining the ability to make multiple pacts simultaneously as they increase in level. The literature in Tome of Magic is very specific regarding vestiges. They are the souls of legendary beings who have been "evicted" from the universe. They make deals with binders so that they can experience the joys of existence once again. However, the names of most of the vestiges, as well as their descriptions, come from demons in Christian legend. Tome of Magic provides several adaptation options for the vestiges including making them totem spirits. Binders have no alignment restrictions, although those of lawful or good alignments are often disturbed by the strange appearance and nature of the vestiges. Chaotic and non-good alignments are suggested because of the nature of their abilities." "Warlocks are users of spell-like abilities either in-born or granted through a pact with some unearthly being such as a demon or a fey. Since a warlock's invocations are not normal spells, they may be used while wearing light armor and any number of times. Warlocks can later acquire energy resistance, toughened skin, fast healing, and the ability to force magical items to do their bidding." Basically an amalgam of these classes will give you more spell-like/supernatural abilities than you can shake a Tarrasque-sized stick at. Yay for never running out of spell slots for the day! Throw in 2 level of ur-priest and 1 or 2 of eldritch theruge and you can also have unlimited healing! mmmm, healing blast... actually...I think I'd really want to do that...a man who spits in the eyes of the dieties he comes across. Shows no respect for established religions, etc....sounds like fun...and like one easy way to get paladins after ya |
| Kuro_Khan09-24-07, 12:07 AM | Aren't they limited on the number of turn/rebukes per day for the Healing Blast? |
| Sagetim09-24-07, 01:31 AM | Aren't they limited on the number of turn/rebukes per day for the Healing Blast? no, it's an invocation essence, not a turn based ability. If it was it would kinda suck...True, it won't fix poison or disease, but if your tank is low on health, eld spear and healing blast...mmmm mmm healing. though, couldn't do it with ur priest, has to worship a non evil god....technically an aethiest doesn't worship...meh,. |
| Kuro_Khan09-24-07, 07:27 PM | I'm pretty sure they can only be used if you use a turning attempt, pg. 53, Complete Mage "Choose one of the following abilities at 1st level, and another ability every three levels thereafter (4th, 7th, and 10th level). You can spend one of your turn/rebuke undead attempts as a swift action to activate the chosen power." It wouldn't make sense for a lot of the other powers to be normal invocations, as they only last for a number of rounds equal to (read the book). Most warlock invocations are 24 hours. Point aside.. it would be HORRIBLY :mymy: :shocked: :looloo: cheesy to get a 9d6 healing ray every round. Or even a 9d6 healing burst, using one of the blast shape thingies. That said, this is a pretty cool class... too bad it doesn't work with Ur-Priest... I wanted to make a BBEG out of that :'( |
| Sagetim09-26-07, 02:48 AM | I'm pretty sure they can only be used if you use a turning attempt, pg. 53, Complete Mage "Choose one of the following abilities at 1st level, and another ability every three levels thereafter (4th, 7th, and 10th level). You can spend one of your turn/rebuke undead attempts as a swift action to activate the chosen power." It wouldn't make sense for a lot of the other powers to be normal invocations, as they only last for a number of rounds equal to (read the book). Most warlock invocations are 24 hours. Point aside.. it would be HORRIBLY :mymy: :shocked: :looloo: cheesy to get a 9d6 healing ray every round. Or even a 9d6 healing burst, using one of the blast shape thingies. That said, this is a pretty cool class... too bad it doesn't work with Ur-Priest... I wanted to make a BBEG out of that :'( hmm, thanks for pointing that out for me. Now I know not to try and pull a fast one by my DM about that kinda thing. It would be pretty cool to have an ur priest with it though...perhaps you should houserule it so that you can make a villain like that? Or do you think your players would say 'awww, ********, if we can't do it niether can you no matter how cool the concept is' |
| Paradox_of_Life09-26-07, 04:06 AM | I also don't think that you should allow this PrC to stack with binder levels in determining soul guardian, as it seems too powerful for this class. Other than that, I think it is pretty good. |
| Kuro_Khan09-26-07, 04:21 AM | I wanted to keep Soul Guardian, as I'm losing all the other Binder (Pact Augmentation, etc...) and Warlock (Deceive Item, Damage Reduction, Energu Resist, etc...) abilities. Anima Mage, for example, gives numerous benefits to the class. I've just added Soul Guardian (major), Vestige Ally/Patron (Roleplaying), Armored Invoker (medium), and Supernatural Invocation (pretty useful, but nothing game breaking, especially since its a lvl 10 ability). Look at Anima Mage (assuming you haven't). Also see: Eldritch Disciple, Eldritch Theurge. Is this broken in comparison? |
| Paradox_of_Life09-26-07, 04:31 AM | I did, and none of those give bonuses to soul guardian. That class features is, I'm assuming from seeing its lack of usage in the other PrCs, exclusively the binders'. Your class gives Progression as though a binder full caster progression Eliminating Casting failure, one of the warlocks weakness. With soul guardian, it makes this class too powerful in my opinion. |
| Kuro_Khan09-26-07, 04:52 AM | I really really like the Soul Guardian abilities. And it works with a prestige class where the binder is an ally to the vestiges. If I dropped heavy armor, would that balance it? |
| Sagetim09-26-07, 12:49 PM | I really really like the Soul Guardian abilities. And it works with a prestige class where the binder is an ally to the vestiges. If I dropped heavy armor, would that balance it? If you got rid of the armor stuff, it would probably be balanced. Anima mage has full caster and full binder progression. So compare your abilities to those of the anima mage. Are they balanced against the enhanced metamagic and such? |
| Kuro_Khan09-26-07, 04:40 PM | I think so... though I'm in the minority. I respect yours and Paradox's opinions.. but I'd like a wider audience to see this. A warlock can take a feat that lets them cast in heavier armor.. (can't remember the name of the feat, Complete Arcane is missing). ButI think you need the proficiency in addition to the feat.. so... 2 class abilities covering 4 feats. What if I just took away the ability to cast in the armor (requiring the casting feats to be taken), and just gave the proficiency. This seems to be pretty balanced, as the class is getting 2 "weak" bonus feats, instead of the Armored Invoker class abilities. |
| aka_tarquin09-27-07, 12:28 PM | The feat is Battle Caster. It lets you wear Medium Armor (or Mithril Heavy Armor). As for proficiences - doesn't certain vestiges grant you those while they're bound to you? In any case, my two cents: Roughly half the abilities of the Anima Mage, Eldritch Disciple, and Eldritch Theurge are limited in use. The Soul Invoker does not possess any such limitations (aside from his/her limitation in the number of vestiges he/she can bind, but that's not saying much). The issue of balance begins here. |
| rampant09-27-07, 02:51 PM | I know its nitpicky, but shouldn't you use something beside +1 to warlock level? +1 to Eldritch blasting class? |
| maskimus09-27-07, 03:02 PM | I wanted to keep Soul Guardian, as I'm losing all the other Binder (Pact Augmentation, etc...) and Warlock (Deceive Item, Damage Reduction, Energu Resist, etc...) abilities. Anima Mage, for example, gives numerous benefits to the class. I've just added Soul Guardian (major), Vestige Ally/Patron (Roleplaying), Armored Invoker (medium), and Supernatural Invocation (pretty useful, but nothing game breaking, especially since its a lvl 10 ability). Look at Anima Mage (assuming you haven't). Also see: Eldritch Disciple, Eldritch Theurge. Is this broken in comparison? You wouldn't have to lose Deceive Item. You could take Warlock to 4th level. Actually, that's what I would do. It's such a useful ability. Anyway, nice work. Combining my two favorite classes.:D |
| Sagetim09-27-07, 08:53 PM | The feat is Battle Caster. It lets you wear Medium Armor (or Mithril Heavy Armor). As for proficiences - doesn't certain vestiges grant you those while they're bound to you? In any case, my two cents: Roughly half the abilities of the Anima Mage, Eldritch Disciple, and Eldritch Theurge are limited in use. The Soul Invoker does not possess any such limitations (aside from his/her limitation in the number of vestiges he/she can bind, but that's not saying much). The issue of balance begins here. yeah, but those abilities also kick alot more ass than the ones this class gives. This gives some skill bonuses and nice things having to do with skills, and the one thing that is really cool is limited in use per day. |
| gabrion09-28-07, 12:36 AM | A few things... On the topic of requirements, I find it strange to use eldritch blast as a one of them (which would be why I also find it strange that the advancement is so warlock specific). Specifying that binding must come from a class ability is a poor idea in my opinion. I'm not sure if your reasoning is to keep people from fast tracking some how, but as the DMGII points out, such heavy-handed requirements should be avoided when possible. These are really just format things that don't affect balance though, so not a huge deal. The full advancement of binding and warlock abilities is ok in theory, but I think a few adjustments need to be made for it to be balanced. I think advancing two caster classes should mean the primary emphasis of the PrC is on the casting (or in this case casting and binding) abilities. As such, I believe a 1/2 BAB progression is more appropriate than 3/4. You may disagree because each base class has a 3/4 BAB, but I think it is an appropriate price to pay for someone seeking such wide knowledge of magical powers. Likewise, I don't think it is appropriate to further extend the armored casting of the warlock. By doing so you are giving a class all the advantages of two types of magic, while also (combined with your current 3/4 BAB) making it a full fighter class by granting use of the heaviest armors. I highly discourage this. Lastly, the Supernatural Invocation just seems cheesy to me. One of the downsides to invocations is that they carry the same risk as spell - especially provoking AoOs. I get the feeling (given the melee power you've given this PrC) that the motivation for Supernatural Invocation is so that you can be fighting in melee and not have to worry about provoking AoOs 10x/day when casting invocations. In the end though, the real question is what level of power is appropriate for PrCs in your campaign. As is, this dual progression is much closer to the Arcane Heirophant (read: very powerful) than it is the Mystic Thergue. If that's cool, then go for it, but if you want it to be on par with average to good PrCs, I'd scale back a few things. |
| Kuro_Khan09-28-07, 11:03 AM | A few things... On the topic of requirements, I find it strange to use eldritch blast as a one of them (which would be why I also find it strange that the advancement is so warlock specific). Specifying that binding must come from a class ability is a poor idea in my opinion. I'm not sure if your reasoning is to keep people from fast tracking some how, but as the DMGII points out, such heavy-handed requirements should be avoided when possible. These are really just format things that don't affect balance though, so not a huge deal. The requirement of the Eldritch Blast is one of the best ways (I can think of) to require that it comes from the Warlock class, and that you are at least level 3 in that class. I've since changed the table to say +1 level of existing invoking class, but even leaving in +1 warlock is in line with WotC, as the Lyric Thaumaturge (Complete Mage) has "+1 level of bard spellcasting ability", very "heavy-handed". The Eldritch Theurge PrC (in Complete Mage) requires a 2d6 Eldritch Blast, so I think I'm ok in requiring it here. And for the binding from a class ability, I don't want people to be able to qualify for the Binder portion of this Prestige class by taking a few feats (read the feats in the Binder area of Tome of Magic). The full advancement of binding and warlock abilities is ok in theory, but I think a few adjustments need to be made for it to be balanced. I think advancing two caster classes should mean the primary emphasis of the PrC is on the casting (or in this case casting and binding) abilities. As such, I believe a 1/2 BAB progression is more appropriate than 3/4. You may disagree because each base class has a 3/4 BAB, but I think it is an appropriate price to pay for someone seeking such wide knowledge of magical powers. Again, on Eldritch Theurge and Disciple, both of these PrCs advance BAB by 3/4. Disciple also maintains the Hit Dice at the Cleric's D8... The Abjurant Champion, which grants FULL BAB, and D10 hp, still grants full caster progression, so I'm thinking BAB isn't really that much of a balance factor anymore. Likewise, I don't think it is appropriate to further extend the armored casting of the warlock. By doing so you are giving a class all the advantages of two types of magic, while also (combined with your current 3/4 BAB) making it a full fighter class by granting use of the heaviest armors. I highly discourage this. Binders have no spell-failure based on armor, but warlocks do. Binders also are supposed to be more melee fighters than casters too, IMO. This seems to be a sore spot... so I think I'll just remove the heavy armored invoker area, and just give the class the Battle Caster feat as a bonus feat at level 4, which any warlock would take normally (well, I would). Lastly, the Supernatural Invocation just seems cheesy to me. One of the downsides to invocations is that they carry the same risk as spell - especially provoking AoOs. I get the feeling (given the melee power you've given this PrC) that the motivation for Supernatural Invocation is so that you can be fighting in melee and not have to worry about provoking AoOs 10x/day when casting invocations. At level 15, when you would have this ability, your ranks in concentration should be about 18, and assuming a +2 con (very low assumption here), so about a +20 to your concentration roll. With a +20 modifier, defensive casting is basically automatic on all invocations lvl 6 and lower. Besides.. with constitution boosting items, concentration boosting items, etc.. +20 modifier is quite low... The real advantage of this is if you're tied up or something. Or if you're using the Heavy armor of that one vestige, and you can still cast in it (since I'm taking off heavy invoker). In the end though, the real question is what level of power is appropriate for PrCs in your campaign. As is, this dual progression is much closer to the Arcane Heirophant (read: very powerful) than it is the Mystic Thergue. If that's cool, then go for it, but if you want it to be on par with average to good PrCs, I'd scale back a few things. Mystic Theurge has been called weak by numerous people, even WotC themselves, who call it "Reads good plays bad" See Links: Char Ops Board Review (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=929893) WotC Review (http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://www.wizards.com/default.asp%3Fx%3Ddnd/dd/20060616a) So its not really in anyone's best interest to replicate its power. Armored Invoker is getting reworked (should be fixed as you look at it now). But the other stuff just doesn't seem unbalanced at all to me. All the other binder/warlock based hybrid classes (Anima Mage, Eldritch Disciple, Eldritch Theurge), all give very very nice bonus to arcane and divine spellcasting, and also have numerous other class benefits based on both the parent classes and the PrC (Disciple counts as cleric levels for turning and rebuking, while the Theurge gets DR and Fiendish Resilience, in addition to other stuff). |
| gabrion09-28-07, 05:00 PM | The requirement of the Eldritch Blast is one of the best ways (I can think of) to require that it comes from the Warlock class, and that you are at least level 3 in that class. I've since changed the table to say +1 level of existing invoking class, but even leaving in +1 warlock is in line with WotC, as the Lyric Thaumaturge (Complete Mage) has "+1 level of bard spellcasting ability", very "heavy-handed". The Eldritch Theurge PrC (in Complete Mage) requires a 2d6 Eldritch Blast, so I think I'm ok in requiring it here. And for the binding from a class ability, I don't want people to be able to qualify for the Binder portion of this Prestige class by taking a few feats (read the feats in the Binder area of Tome of Magic). Ya that's not actually huge deal to me. I was just responding to the fact that rail-roading a character into taking a specific class to meet PrC requirements is usually frowned on (note: this is not to say it doesn't happen). When the point of the PrC is for it to advance that class though, I guess it's a moot point. Again, on Eldritch Theurge and Disciple, both of these PrCs advance BAB by 3/4. Disciple also maintains the Hit Dice at the Cleric's D8... The Abjurant Champion, which grants FULL BAB, and D10 hp, still grants full caster progression, so I'm thinking BAB isn't really that much of a balance factor anymore. I hate to be rude, but if you really believe the bold part, you might want to think twice about writing PrCs. I don't have Complete Mage, so I cant see the Theurge and Disciple, but do both of them advance casting and invocations at every level? If so they are certainly on the high side power wise. What kind of entry requirements do they have? The Abjurant Champion is another case altogether...it's a gish PrC which advances one kind of spellcasting while maintaining full BAB. That isn't all that strange (see EK and Knight Phantom for other examples). Perhaps 3/4 BAB is ok, but with fairly easy entry requirements and full progression of two casting classes, I just find it a tad too strong. Then again, as I pointed out before, both base classes are 3/4 BAB, so that says something. Binders have no spell-failure based on armor, but warlocks do. Binders also are supposed to be more melee fighters than casters too, IMO. This seems to be a sore spot... so I think I'll just remove the heavy armored invoker area, and just give the class the Battle Caster feat as a bonus feat at level 4, which any warlock would take normally (well, I would). So just give the character a free feat that he would normally have to invest in? Not seeing the logic here (other than lets give this guy as much good stuff as we can). At level 15, when you would have this ability, your ranks in concentration should be about 18, and assuming a +2 con (very low assumption here), so about a +20 to your concentration roll. With a +20 modifier, defensive casting is basically automatic on all invocations lvl 6 and lower. Besides.. with constitution boosting items, concentration boosting items, etc.. +20 modifier is quite low... The real advantage of this is if you're tied up or something. Or if you're using the Heavy armor of that one vestige, and you can still cast in it (since I'm taking off heavy invoker). The problem is that Binder and Warlock have decent skill lists, but only 2+int skills each. This PrC likewise maintains UMD and good social skills, while not giving many skill points. While you can argue that maxed concentration is a natural choice for this character, it could also be argued that with this ability, investing zero points in concentration is a no-brainer, so that you can invest in UMD and other skills. Mystic Theurge has been called weak by numerous people, even WotC themselves, who call it "Reads good plays bad" See Links: Char Ops Board Review (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=929893) WotC Review (http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://www.wizards.com/default.asp%3Fx%3Ddnd/dd/20060616a) So its not really in anyone's best interest to replicate its power. Actually they called it "reads bad, plays good." The idea was that it looks terribly overpowered, but when you play it isn't too bad. IE, it's balanced. CharOP boards don't think it's great? Since that's were I spend most of my time I will just remind you that they are specifically looking for high-powered material (or ways to squeeze power out of average material). Armored Invoker is getting reworked (should be fixed as you look at it now). But the other stuff just doesn't seem unbalanced at all to me. All the other binder/warlock based hybrid classes (Anima Mage, Eldritch Disciple, Eldritch Theurge), all give very very nice bonus to arcane and divine spellcasting, and also have numerous other class benefits based on both the parent classes and the PrC (Disciple counts as cleric levels for turning and rebuking, while the Theurge gets DR and Fiendish Resilience, in addition to other stuff). Well I think you're going to go ahead and use it anyway, so the best we can do here is just offer opinions and you do with them what you like. :) Just to be clear though, I was not saying in my original post that this is game-breaking powerful or anything. On the scale of power for PrC this is on the high side though. That's my only point, and if that's what you're aiming for then cool - have fun playing it! |
| Evilholyguy01-22-08, 03:17 PM | OMG OMG MY GOD! i love this prc! |