Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Papapop 10-17-07, 11:21 PM	yea yea yea, i know that you've all seen like 20 of these so far, but my friend made one and thinks its pretty good, so he wants some critisizm on it. REQUIREMENTS To become a Spartan, a character must fulfill the following criteria. Class: Fighter Base Attack Bonus: +10 Alignment: Must be Lawful Good Skills: Jump 12 ranks Feats: Power Attack, Improved Shield Bash, Weapon Focus (Any Spear), Weapon Specialization (Any Spear), Cleave, Shield Specialization, Special: A Spartan must never carry any type of bow or use one at any time without losing the title of Spartan. She also cannot use magic of any kind in any way. CLASS SKILLS The Spartan’s class skills (and key abilities for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Spartan Weaponry) (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Tumble (Dex) Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier Hit Die: D12 BAB Fort Ref Will Special +1 +2 +2 +0 DR1/bow, Spartan combo +2 +3 +3 +0 Weapons +1, Phalanx Formation +3 +3 +3 +1 DR 2/bows,Devastating Shield +4 +4 +4 +1 Weapons +2,Far Shot +5 +4 +4 +1 DR 3/bows,Great Cleave +6 +5 +5 +2 Weapons +3,Leap of Faith +7 +5 +5 +2 DR 4/bows,Supreme Cleave +8 +6 +6 +2 Weapons +4,Penetrating Throw +9 +6 +6 +3 DR 5/bows,Spartan Morale +10 +7 +7 +3 Weapons +5,Spartan Roar CLASS FEATURES All of the following are class features of the Spartan prestige class Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Spartans are proficient with all simple and martial weapons as well as any type of spear or shield. Damage Reduction: Spartans gain resilience to most forms of attack leaving them only vulnerable to bows (including crossbows). This DR starts as only 1/bows and increases by 1 every odd numbered level after first Weapon Bonus: Due to a Spartan’s heavy training with both the shield and spear she gains a +1 bonus to attack and damage when using any spear or shield. When applying this bonus to a shield you must choose at that level whether the bonus will go toward using the shield as a weapon or as armor. This bonus starts as only +1 at second level and increases by 1 every even level after 2nd. Spartan Combo: As long as a Spartan wields a shield in her off-hand she can treat any spear as a light weapon in her primary hand. Devastating Shield: A Spartan gains the Shield Slam feat even if she does not meet the prerequisites. Leap of Faith: A Spartan gains Leap Attack as a bonus feat at 5th level. Phalanx Formation: A Spartan gains the Phalanx Fighting feat even if she does not meet the prerequisites. Far Shot: A Spartan sees no need for a bow with her amazing distance with a spear. A Spartan gains the Far Shot feat even if she does not meet the prerequisites. Great Cleave: A Spartan gains Great Cleave as a bonus feat at 6th level. Supreme Cleave: A Spartan is able to take a 5-foot step before making a Cleave or Great Cleave. Penetrating Throw: A Spartan gains the Penetrating Shot feat when using a spear even if she does not meet the prerequisites. Spartan Morale: If a Spartan fights along side with other fighters or Spartans he gains a +5 morale bonus on attack rolls.. Spartan Roar: Once per day a Spartan can let out a great roar that requires all enemies to make a will save against fear or be shaken for 1 round/Spartan level. The save DC is 10 + Spartan level + con modifier. Note: Levels of Spartan stack with levels of Fighter for cases such as Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization forgot to mention that the spartain cannot use any magic what soever, so not even a +1 on their weapons or armor can be applied
StevenO 10-17-07, 11:57 PM	No critique on power but a few other suggestions/comments. Why so many skill points? From a PCs point of view there are only a few skills worth taking and four points makes it easy to get them all. Damage Reduction/Bow doesn't work. To fit best in the game in should be DR/Piercing instead. Even DR/missles would be better because why should a bow penetrate the DR but not a crossbow? Spartan Combo: You'd probably be MUCH happier treating a spear as a one handed weapon instead of a light weapon. That way it is only a one step size reduction and you can still apply Power Attack damage unlike using a Light Weapon. Finally, forbidding Magic makes the class very difficult to evaluate as equipment is so important to warrior. If you make the class strong enough to survive without access to wealth appropriate equipment then you really open the door to the abuses that would be possible with the Vow of Poverty feat.
Orenmir 10-18-07, 11:50 AM	I like it. Having just watched 300 last night (which was an awful movie), I have the Spartan warrior fighting style fresh in my head. A few notes... Why the good reflex save? It seems a bit too generous. Try to find a way to throw Die Hard into the mix. Lawful Good doesn't seem right -- that's where the Paladins go. Lawful, I understand. Maybe leave it at that, or add Lawful Non-Evil. 12 ranks of Jump seems excessive. A Fighter would really have to throw most of his skill points there to qualify. I'd suggest reducing it to 8 or 10 at the most. You can't really call the PrC Spartan. It refers to a real place in our history. I would suggest coming up with a new name that would make it obvious you are refering to the Spartan fighting style. Maybe you could rearrange the letters... Pastarn, Stanpar, Naspart, Tapsnar. Yeah, OK, all of those sound stupid. You get the idea though.
Prince_of_Parkness 10-18-07, 06:18 PM	Unless you have a good ingame reason for doing so, I follow the assumption that Spartans were elite (lv 10-16) fighters against 2-5th level consprips and 6-8th level crack troops (Immortals). Its a gd PrC though, so you could just rename it as something else, or ignore what i just said. Its up to you and your friend.
BananaB 10-19-07, 05:30 PM	Damage Reduction/Bow doesn't work. To fit best in the game in should be DR/Piercing instead. Even DR/missles would be better because why should a bow penetrate the DR but not a crossbow? DR/Peircing doesn't work bedcause things like spears and daggers should not peirce the DR. The point of putting DR/bows was because the only thing that could defeat the Spartans were long ranged weapons, and crossbows do peirce the DR, i specifically mentionsed that. But i do agree that DR/missiles would be better, no more Magic Missile:dancin: lol, but not really. I also see what you mean about making the spear one-handed instead of light, power attack would be lost. I was thinking about needing a light weapon for the Palanx Fighting feat when i made that part. So i'll probably change it, thanks. BTW i'm the friend who made the class
StevenO 10-19-07, 06:29 PM	I knew what the problem with going straight DR/piercing would be. A real problem with DR/bows is that you will almost NEVER see anyone attacked with a bow, arrows yes but not the actual bow.
Orenmir 10-19-07, 06:30 PM	the only thing that could defeat the Spartans were long ranged weapons, and crossbows You must realize how silly that statement is. The Spartans' fighting style attribute nothing to being vulnerable to arrows. Heck, even in 300 when the arrows darkened the sky, all the Spartans did was hide under their shields -- any they all were unscathed! Explain their weakness towards arrows. There's also something about arrows that doesn't translate well in the D&D world. In the real world, if you get hit in the torso with a single arrow, you are pretty much immediately immobilized and facing serious injury. In D&D, it could take dozens of arrows before you are really affected in any way. To translate this into your Spartan PrC -- just ditch the DR exclusion. If you want to add something for flavor in this regaurd -- make them unable to take the Deflect Arrows feat.
Operation_Shoestring 10-19-07, 07:00 PM	Oh, quit the spartan wankange. The RL Spartans were given to sadism and pederasty. (hell, it was considered part of one's training to be a warrior) Plus they were all slave-owners. Which is part of why they were such feared fighters. With slaves doing all the work, they could devote themselves to the study of warfare all 24/7 [/rant against 300] make it DR/magic. or for laughs, DR/treachery. Also keep in mind that spartan's used spears for primaily formation fighting. In close combat, they relied on Xisphos (may be spelled wrong), short curved blades. Have the class give Weapon Proficiency: Xisphos (Kukri).
Bloodsoul 10-20-07, 04:26 AM	Just out of curiousity.. why no Survival skill?
BananaB 10-20-07, 09:14 PM	I didn't think that the survival skill was really relevant. Survival is about r\tracking and weather and stuff so I didn't think that a spartan really would have very much skill in this area. I may be wrong but a Spatans training did not include being able to track enemies, although some may have been good at this none the less.
BananaB 10-20-07, 10:37 PM	The Spartans' fighting style attribute nothing to being vulnerable to arrows. Heck, even in 300 when the arrows darkened the sky, all the Spartans did was hide under their shields -- any they all were unscathed! You must realize how silly that statement is. You do realize that the movie 300 was based off of a comic book, don't you? The comic book/movie may be historically inspired, but we all know that the real battle of Thermopylae was ended by the Persians firing a hail of arrows and spears until every last Greek was dead. The Persians had to revert to this method because they were unable to defeat the Spartans in close combat. If the Spartans were unbeatable in melee and then totally crushed by arrows, it seems that they must have been extremely vulnerable to ranged weapons. One should not gather ideas about the Spartan fighting style from a movie seeing as it was all choreographed to appear witty as well as admirable.
Operation_Shoestring 10-21-07, 03:19 AM	You must realize how silly that statement is. You do realize that the movie 300 was based off of a comic book, don't you? The comic book/movie may be historically inspired, but we all know that the real battle of Thermopylae was ended by the Persians firing a hail of arrows and spears until every last Greek was dead. The Persians had to revert to this method because they were unable to defeat the Spartans in close combat. If the Spartans were unbeatable in melee and then totally crushed by arrows, it seems that they must have been extremely vulnerable to ranged weapons. One should not gather ideas about the Spartan fighting style from a movie seeing as it was all choreographed to appear witty as well as admirable. Shield-walls aren't perfect but they're effective against arrow volleys. The Persians could probably have won by arrow-spam eventually, but it would have taken a long time, and their logistics really wouldn't let them wait that long. (you try shooting 4,000 armored warriors, with tower shields and who could hide behind uninspiring but functional fortifications if necessary, to death with arrow volley over a stupidly narrow front. See how long it takes you.) The Greeks were actually defeated when a traitor (although whether one can commit reason against state one is not a true citizen of is arguable) showed the Persians a way around the narrow pass the Greeks were blocking. Sheesh, am i the only guy around here who studies history?
Return of the Flumph 10-21-07, 11:42 AM	Rename it.
Raphael_Sorel 10-21-07, 11:56 AM	Shield-walls aren't perfect but they're effective against arrow volleys. The Persians could probably have won by arrow-spam eventually, but it would have taken a long time, and their logistics really wouldn't let them wait that long. (you try shooting 4,000 armored warriors, with tower shields and who could hide behind uninspiring but functional fortifications if necessary, to death with arrow volley over a stupidly narrow front. See how long it takes you.) The Greeks were actually defeated when a traitor (although whether one can commit reason against state one is not a true citizen of is arguable) showed the Persians a way around the narrow pass the Greeks were blocking. Sheesh, am i the only guy around here who studies history? I dunno... the arguements seems weak since everyone is only referencing a single battle. If you look throughout spartan military history you will see while yes, there melee combat skills were practicly unmatchable, the defeats they did suffer almost all came from the ranged projectiles the lightly armored soldiers would launch at them (whether it be arrows, javelins, etc...) while the heavily equiped spartans couldn't close the distance.
BananaB 10-21-07, 01:18 PM	If you look throughout spartan military history you will see while yes, there melee combat skills were practicly unmatchable, the defeats they did suffer almost all came from the ranged projectiles I agree with this statement and it is why i decided to put this DR in the class. As for all the comments on changing the name, in my case,the campaign I designed the PrC for has a Spartan settlement and I am one of many, so it makes perfect sense to call it Spartan. Allthough this isn't the case for most campaigns so you can feel free to call it what you'd like. I just thought it would make an interesting class to model a PrC of my own after one of the most powerful military colonies in history.
Operation_Shoestring 10-21-07, 03:13 PM	I dunno... the arguements seems weak since everyone is only referencing a single battle. If you look throughout spartan military history you will see while yes, there melee combat skills were practicly unmatchable, the defeats they did suffer almost all came from the ranged projectiles the lightly armored soldiers would launch at them (whether it be arrows, javelins, etc...) while the heavily equiped spartans couldn't close the distance. That's not a vulnerability to arrows. That's a vulnerability to enemies that are faster and more mobile than you, a trait every army has. :rolleyes: The mongols beat the crap out of Middle age European Knights, because the heavily armored knights couldn't catch up with the nimble Mongol horsemen. That's about speed more than it's about range. And the lightly armorer soldiers you reference were called Peltasts. They were used as skirmishers to harass the enemy before your own heavy infantry charged them, and did not really "defeat" anyone. Their job was to soften up enemy heavy infantry at range so your own heavy infantry could go in and smash the now demoralized, weakened, and disorganized enemy. And yes, was referring only to Thermoplae, because assumed that was the reason why someone decided to make a spartan in the first place Use DR/magic DR/ranged doesn't fit D&D rules or common sense. Also Sparta was not a "military colony" It was a City-State built on slave labor, dependent on it's military to keep the rabble from rebelling.
BananaB 10-21-07, 03:58 PM	I realize that the Spartans were not particularly more affected by ranged attacks but being hit by long ranged weaopns that cut their numbers before they could reach the enemy was a weakness in the Spartan fighting style so i incorperated it into D&D as DR/bows. You must realize that this isn't real life and an actual Spartan can't be defined by a bunch of feats and abilities. This was just my interpretation of a way to fight as a Spartan and use thaier tactics and strengths in a D&D setting. I was just looking for some better ideas and criticisms on my PrC, not a history lesson on you skewed beleifs about the real Spartans or a comparison pointing out the flaws in D&D when translated to real life.
TeamKill 10-21-07, 04:03 PM	Sheesh, am i the only guy around here who studies history? I suggest you go to the nearest library and re-learn your history.
Return of the Flumph 10-21-07, 05:21 PM	Well, the thing is, these guys are vulnerable to arrows anyway simply on account of their fighting style and tendency to wear heavy armor and fight on foot. I'm not sure if you really need to add a mechanical vulnerability to ranged attacks, since they are already vulnerable to such on account of being so melee focused.
IdleAltruism 10-21-07, 06:37 PM	yea yea yea, i know that you've all seen like 20 of these so far, but my friend made one and thinks its pretty good, so he wants some critisizm on it. To many. There are so many ways to make an effective 300 type warrior with what we got. Theres NO real need for a PrC/Base class/Feats, they already exist, they just don't have Spartan labeled on it. REQUIREMENTS To become a Spartan, a character must fulfill the following criteria. Class: Fighter Base Attack Bonus: +10 Alignment: Must be Lawful Good Skills: Jump 12 ranks Feats: Power Attack, Improved Shield Bash, Weapon Focus (Any Spear), Weapon Specialization (Any Spear), Cleave, Shield Specialization, Special: A Spartan must never carry any type of bow or use one at any time without losing the title of Spartan. She also cannot use magic of any kind in any way. Ok first off you shouldn't have Fighter as a requirement. Weapon specialization isn't exclusive to the fighter outside of core, there are a number of ways other then fighter to get into the class. Anyways you shouldn't have a class as a prerequisite. BAB is awfully high, this class doesn't have the speciality to qualify it for that high. Probably tone it down to 5-7. 12 ranks into jump is really high. Seriously how often does a spartan need to jump? With this every spartan is a super leaper. I guess they need it wielding tower shields. Its very feat intensive and I'm not sure about the cleave or power attack requirement. Doesn't seem to fit well. If you look through the PH2, CW, and various other supplements you'd probably find better suited feats. Not using a bow is sorta silly. The only reason an army wouldn't have ranged weapons like bows and crossbows would be because they couldn't afford them(or very strange circumstances would prevent their usefulness). The huge macho ego trip from hell might be the cause, but why translate this into a requirement? The historical spartans and the 300 were far from LG. It could be argued they weren't lawful at all(alot of their tendencies were chaotic in nature). I suggest removing the alignment restriction, it doesn't make much sense. CLASS SKILLS The Spartan’s class skills (and key abilities for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Spartan Weaponry) (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Tumble (Dex) Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier lots of skills for a simple minded class. Also alot of them don't make sense, religion,geography,history, profession, tumble all have no place on their class list. The knowledge skills aren't just war stories or historical battles, it'll include alot of information that I personally can't see these warrior people having access to. Hit Die: D12 Bah, not every warrior class needs a d12, unless they have really good reason to. Barbarians get it because they rage and take AC penalties. This class doesn't need it, they're shield specialist group fighting monkies, they don't need more HPs. BAB Fort Ref Will Special +1 +2 +2 +0 DR1/bow, Spartan combo +2 +3 +3 +0 Weapons +1, Phalanx Formation +3 +3 +3 +1 DR 2/bows,Devastating Shield +4 +4 +4 +1 Weapons +2,Far Shot +5 +4 +4 +1 DR 3/bows,Great Cleave +6 +5 +5 +2 Weapons +3,Leap of Faith +7 +5 +5 +2 DR 4/bows,Supreme Cleave +8 +6 +6 +2 Weapons +4,Penetrating Throw +9 +6 +6 +3 DR 5/bows,Spartan Morale +10 +7 +7 +3 Weapons +5,Spartan Roar Two good saves seems a bit much. What about carrying a big tower shield helps your reflex? Damage Reduction: Spartans gain resilience to most forms of attack leaving them only vulnerable to bows (including crossbows). This DR starts as only 1/bows and increases by 1 every odd numbered level after first I don't understand this. If they use towershields they can gain cover and if they use certain magical shields(it may be a feat) they gain bonuses to AC being next to someone else with a shield. Why do they need DR? Why is their DR against bows of all things? I suggest removing it all together, it doesn't make much sense and its clunky. Weapon Bonus: Due to a Spartan’s heavy training with both the shield and spear she gains a +1 bonus to attack and damage when using any spear or shield. When applying this bonus to a shield you must choose at that level whether the bonus will go toward using the shield as a weapon or as armor. This bonus starts as only +1 at second level and increases by 1 every even level after 2nd. This is the classes main ability and its rather plain and a little to powerful. A +5 tower shield would give a +14 Ac, you'd effectively be carrying a +6 suit of platemail in your offhand. Spartan Combo: As long as a Spartan wields a shield in her off-hand she can treat any spear as a light weapon in her primary hand. So much for power attack as a prerequisite. What about things like greatspears? What kind of spear, just any spear? Leap of Faith: A Spartan gains Leap Attack as a bonus feat at 5th level. Damn that 300 movie! Damn it! Just because there is one crazy leaping mofo in the movie all spartans can drop everything and jump 30 feet in the air? This is becoming more and more anime like. I see a group of spartans with this class leap frogging enemies with leap attack, destroy unit, leap onto Phalanx Formation: A Spartan gains the Phalanx Fighting feat even if she does not meet the prerequisites. Bonus feats should be bonus feats, give them a list to choose from. This is shoehorning players into playing the spartan of your imagination. Far Shot: A Spartan sees no need for a bow with her amazing distance with a spear. A Spartan gains the Far Shot feat even if she does not meet the prerequisites. No! Hold the phone, stop right here. Chucking the correct type of spears is ok, but chucking a random spear with one hand just doesn't make any sense(btw this far shot is giving them an amazing 15 foot increment, um woot?). Great Cleave: A Spartan gains Great Cleave as a bonus feat at 6th level. Same with the rest of the feats. Why can a spartan mow down an army? I don't remember this happening in the movies. I remember them systematically killing unit after unit, not cleaving through them. Supreme Cleave: A Spartan is able to take a 5-foot step before making a Cleave or Great Cleave. This makes makes just as much sense as cleave. Penetrating Throw: A Spartan gains the Penetrating Shot feat when using a spear even if she does not meet the prerequisites. What? Spartan Morale: If a Spartan fights along side with other fighters or Spartans he gains a +5 morale bonus on attack rolls.. No, just no. They already gain a huge bonus to hit, they don't need this. Spartan Roar: Once per day a Spartan can let out a great roar that requires all enemies to make a will save against fear or be shaken for 1 round/Spartan level. The save DC is 10 + Spartan level + con modifier. Meh, sorry but this is just a boring ability. Not worth a capstone. Note: Levels of Spartan stack with levels of Fighter for cases such as Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization They already do crazy damage and have crazy abilities, why give them supremacy? forgot to mention that the spartain cannot use any magic what soever, so not even a +1 on their weapons or armor can be applied This isn't VoP. This shouldn't even be considered. Theres alot more to magical gear then armor and weapons and a character needs these to survive. This is extremely limiting and will make the character pretty much worthless higher levels.
BananaB 10-21-07, 07:27 PM	I know what you're saying about not really needing a Spartan PrC becuase the feats already exsist, but if you didn't notice most of the class is feats. Some are put in the class because the prerequisites would be usless to a Spartan so this way they can get them without wasting feats on the prereques. All a Spartan is is a very well trained fighter. Therefore a rogue or a ranget can not be a Spartan because it would make no sense. The BAB is high because they would have to be experienced fighters before they could call themselves spartans. The 12 in jump is needed to utilise the leap attack that the get further in the class. Plus, you're a fighter, what else are you gonna put your ranks in. They don't get to use bows because they never had Spartan archers. It wasn't part of their training. And i admit that the alighnment restriction doesn't make sense and i think that will be changed. As for your obsession with the tower shields a sectoin of the class was left out. In the into that was left out i mentioned that a spartans weapons consisted of heavy steel shield, short sword, spear and breastplate. They are proficient with towershiields if you truly want to be like a spartan and not abuse their proficiencies you would simply use a heavy shield. and i don't see how a +5 tower shield gives +14 AC anyway. The far shot feat only works with weapons that have a range increment and a spear with far shot would give it a 40ft range, not 15. As for the rest of the feats and abilities I thought they would be interesting for a Spartan. Most feats could never be accomplished in real life so everyone has to stop comparing D&D to real life. And you yourself have said that the class has way too high att bonus and they don't need weapon supremecy yet it is also completely underpowered? Well of course its underpowered if you take out all the bonuses stated here for the spartan. So how about some real advice and criticism instead of complaining about everything in the class just because you feel like it.
IdleAltruism 10-21-07, 08:06 PM	I know what you're saying about not really needing a Spartan PrC becuase the feats already exsist, but if you didn't notice most of the class is feats. Some are put in the class because the prerequisites would be usless to a Spartan so this way they can get them without wasting feats on the prereques. So they get feats that would be useless to the concept, because otherwise they'd have to pay for them? What? All a Spartan is is a very well trained fighter. Therefore a rogue or a ranget can not be a Spartan because it would make no sense. The BAB is high because they would have to be experienced fighters before they could call themselves spartans. Exactly. A well trained fighter is a higher level fighter. Technically a rogue or ranger could very well be a spartan, it would just take them longer. With this class a dwarf could be a spartan :D The 12 in jump is needed to utilise the leap attack that the get further in the class. Plus, you're a fighter, what else are you gonna put your ranks in. I didn't see a leap attack, I just looked over it again. If you could point it out thx, I just don't see it. Strange. They don't get to use bows because they never had Spartan archers. They don't use bows because its not spartan to use bows? Even tho they're proficient with them? Its more the ego of being spartan then anything preventing them from using bows. As for your obsession with the tower shields a sectoin of the class was left out. In the into that was left out i mentioned that a spartans weapons consisted of heavy steel shield, short sword, spear and breastplate. They are proficient with towershiields if you truly want to be like a spartan and not abuse their proficiencies you would simply use a heavy shield. and i don't see how a +5 tower shield gives +14 AC anyway. Tower shields are the biggest shield out there why not use it? Can't really bash with them but bashing isn't that great to begin with(there are uses but this class doesn't really optimize that). I was looking at the class thinking they could use magical equipment, that would have given them a +10 or so shield with the base +4(although I believe shield specialization would give them another +1?). I didn't catch the no magic stuff to start, was my mistake, I never got to changing it. The far shot feat only works with weapons that have a range increment and a spear with far shot would give it a 40ft range, not 15. Ah the "doubled range" of thrown weapons has never caught my eye, from that feat. Its never came up in my games. When I first looked at the class it looked like they could use any spear in one hand(the author was a little vague on this). A longspear or any exotic spear that can't normally be thrown would have a 20 range increment, I was under the impression that it was only 1 1/2 like regular ranged weapons.(I was assuming quite a bit when I first read it, looking more carefully it looks like this might not have been the authors intention, but it still reads as being very vague). As for the rest of the feats and abilities I thought they would be interesting for a Spartan. Most feats could never be accomplished in real life so everyone has to stop comparing D&D to real life. No we don't. Sure things in D&D are quite different from the real world, but its a fantasy game. Taking something from the real world and trying to translate it into D&D usually requires a lot of tweaking. Still, trying to convert a people into a PrC we figure its going to try and be as accurate as possible. Making something like this doesn't really need to be 100%, but usually you want to get as close as possible(otherwise its kind of pointless making the class based on something). And you yourself have said that the class has way too high att bonus and they don't need weapon supremecy yet it is also completely underpowered? Well of course its underpowered if you take out all the bonuses stated here for the spartan. So how about some real advice and criticism instead of complaining about everything in the class just because you feel like it. No need to be rude. I was simply stating what I believe to be wrong with the class. The class is overpowered if you have magical equipment, its completely unplayable in a standard D&D game without. Its a simple fact, the game was designed with gear dependence. Only a few ways around it(playing a druid or using VoP, or playing a VoP druid). This isn't a class that can play without. I made my suggestions based on the assumption that the no magic items would be changed. More often then not we get very attached to our own works, or those we like. An outside opinion can be useful in evaluating these works.
BananaB 10-21-07, 08:33 PM	Leap of faith in the table is when the Spartan gains the Leap Attack feat. in the descriptions below it says that the Spartan gains Leap Attack as a bonus feat. And the PrC is mostly feats and some feats, like Far Shot for example, require point black shot, which wouod be pointless to a spartan and a waste of a feat, so i put it in the class which allows the class to get the feat without gaining the pointless prerequisites. I can take criticism, thats why i put this up, but its not criticism when you bash everything in the class even when there is no reason. As you can see in previous posts have taken some advice for things like alignment and making the spear one-handed instead of light. But crushing the entire class for no reason is very unnecesary.
NMX112 10-21-07, 08:41 PM	PrC is mostly feats and some feats, like Far Shot for example, require point black shot, which wouod be pointless to a spartan and a waste of a feat, so i put it in the class which allows the class to get the feat without gaining the pointless prerequisites. I would think that since they would be attacking with an extremely range-challenged weapon +1 to hit and damage would be rather nice.
IdleAltruism 10-21-07, 08:46 PM	And the PrC is mostly feats and some feats, like Far Shot for example, require point black shot, which wouod be pointless to a spartan and a waste of a feat, so i put it in the class which allows the class to get the feat without gaining the pointless prerequisites. Throwing the spear is really a suboptimal choice to begin with for this class. It doesn't make any sense for them to train throwing a spear in the first place. If it was a spear throwing class maybe, but it isn't, why give it to them? If it was a spear throwing class point-blank shot might be a very good feat. Theres the problem, if the "pointless" feats don't make sense for them to take, the feat probably doesn't either(there are some exceptions, like whirlwind attack). I can take criticism, thats why i put this up, but its not criticism when you bash everything in the class even when there is no reason. As you can see in previous posts have taken some advice for things like alignment and making the spear one-handed instead of light. But crushing the entire class for no reason is very unnecesary. Actually that is criticism. I pointed out problems I see with it and imo the class itself and concept aren't worth salvaging. The mechanics used for the class are iffy and its flavor seems off to me. The class is really just a fighter, except they get less options then a fighter. When making a PrC you want to make something that fills a new niche or does an old one in a truly unique way. This class is a fighter, a bunch of feats, and as written unusable(strictly because of the magic item thing). Its not new or unique. Theres no reason why you couldn't make a unique class and I'm sure many would help, including myself.
BananaB 10-22-07, 10:04 PM	Plenty of criticizm but no advice.
Orenmir 10-22-07, 10:14 PM	Plenty of criticizm but no advice. Welcome to the world of EVERY DISCUSSION BOARD ON THE INTERNET. In this medium, everyone is an expert, and some are jerks because they are not face-to-face with you. My advice: ignore the nonproductive posts and try to squeeze out the good advice. Else, you'll wind up getting insanely irate at the idea of trying to find something useful with these boards. Go back through the posts here -- there actually were a few good ideas for you. Ignore the elitists trying to squander your creation. Good luck.