Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BananaB 10-23-07, 10:47 PM	Yes, yet again another Spartan. But all that aside I would like some criticism on the new version I've made. I'm looking more for comments on the class itself and not its accuracy to an actual Spartan because matching a real Spartan is quite impossible. So here it is, be gentle. SPARTAN Hopefully the final draft Spartans do not believe in the use of magic or bows. To a Spartan only a coward would use such methods in combat. Because of this, a Spartan cannot use either a bow. Hit die: d10 REQUIREMENTS To become a Spartan, a character must fulfill the following criteria. Class: Fighter Base Attack Bonus: +10 Feats: Improved Shield Bash, Weapon Focus (Any Spear), Weapon Specialization (Any Spear), Shield Specialization, Phalanx Fighting, Agile Shield Fighter Special: A Spartan must never carry any type of bow or use one at any time without losing the title of Spartan. She also must limit his use of magic. BAB Fort Ref Will Special +1 +2 +0 +0 Weapons +1, Spartan Combo, Spartan Code, Bonus Feat +2 +3 +0 +0 DR 1/-, Bonus Feat +3 +3 +1 +1 Weapons +2 (Alignment), Unstoppable Charge +4 +4 +1 +1 DR 2/-, A Spartan Never Falls, Bonus Feat +5 +4 +1 +1 Weapons +3, Spartan Tenacity, Bonus Feat +6 +5 +2 +2 DR 3/-, Penetrating Throw +7 +5 +2 +2 Weapons +4, Spartan Will +8 +6 +2 +2 DR 4/-, Spartan Roar +9 +6 +3 +3 Weapons +5 +10 +7 +3 +3 DR 5/-, Give Them Nothing CLASS SKILLS The Spartan’s class skills (and key abilities for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Spartan Weaponry) (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Spartan Soldier), (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Tumble (Dex). Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier CLASS FEATURES All of the following are class features of the Spartan prestige class. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Spartans are proficient with all spears, heavy shields and Xiphos (short sword). Spartans are proficient with breastplates. Damage Reduction: Spartans gain resilience to damage of all types. This DR starts as only 1/- and increases by 1 at every even level after 2nd. Weapon Bonus: Due to a Spartan’s heavy training with both the shield and spear he gains a +1 bonus to attack and damage when using any spear or shield. This bonus starts as only +1 at second level and increases by 1 every odd level after 1st. At 3rd level a Spartan’s weapons gain his alignment for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Spartan Combo: As long as a Spartan wields a shield in his off-hand he can treat any spear as if it were one size category smaller in his primary hand. Spartan Code: A Spartan never retreats. A Spartan never surrenders. A Spartan is a free man, and protector of free men. A Spartan will strike down tyrants at every chance. A Spartan will not rely on the wiles of wizards (magic and magical items) as a crutch, but can recognize them as being useful. A Spartan may own only an amount of magical equipment less than or equal to 50% of his expected character wealth (by level). Bonus Feat: When a Spartans gains a bonus feat he can choose from the following: Shield Slam, Formation Expert, Improved Shieldmate, Leap Attack, Far Shot, Shield Wall, Improved Critical, Brutal Throw, Hold the Line and Active Shield Defense, regardless of prerequisites. A Spartan Never Falls: Spartans do not automatically fail saves on rolls of 1, nor are they ever subject to saves against Death by Massive Damage. Once per encounter on a saving throw roll of 1 a Spartan may immediately re-roll the save, although he must choose to re-roll before he knows the result of his rolled 1. Fight in the Shade: As a full action a Spartan can duck under his shied granting him a 50% miss chance against all ranged attacks. At 6th level the miss chance increases to 75%. Every turn that a Spartan continues to use this ability he can take a partial move action equal to half his base land speed. While using this ability a Spartan is considered prone. Spartan Will: 1/day per 3 levels of Spartan you may continue to fight when below 0 or even below -10 hit points. When below -10 a Spartan can only take one Standard Action every round. This ability lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + Constitution modifier. If you are below -10 when the ability ends, you die. If you suffer an attack that would bring you to below -10, this ability automatically activates. This ability is a free action that can only be activated during your turn. Spartan Roar: Once per day a Spartan can let out a roar that requires all enemies to make a will save against fear or be shaken for 1 round/Spartan level. The save DC is 10 + Spartan level + con modifier. Give Them Nothing: A Spartan can take a stance that grants him great abilities, but he cannot move from the spot he defends. He gains +4 to Strength, +4 to Constitution, and a +4 deflection bonus to AC. The increase in Constitution increases the Spartan's hit points by 2 points per level but these extra hit points are not lost first the way temporary hit points are, they are lost as after the use of the rage ability. A defensive stance lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the character’s (newly improved) Constitution modifier. A Spartan can use this ability a number of times a day equal to his Constitution modifier +2. A Spartan may prematurely end his stance at will. Taking this stance is a free action that can only be taken during your action and does not provoke attack of opportunity. Penetrating Throw: A Spartan gains the Penetrating Shot feat when throwing a spear even if he does not meet the prerequisites. The range of the Penetrating Shot becomes that of the spear rather than 60 feet. Defend Your Brother: As a swift action a Spartan may protect an adjacent ally with his shield granting them his full shield bonus. You may use this ability immediately before an enemy attack but you must choose to use it before you know the result of the enemy’s attack roll. You lose your shield bonus until the start of your next turn after using this ability. Spartan Tenacity: A Spartan’s body is so hard and strong that they can heal wounds much faster than normal. When a Spartan falls below 75% of his total hit points he gains Fast Healing 1and, at 7th level, when he falls below 35% of his total hit points his Fast Healing increases to 3. When his hit points are brought above above 35%, the fast healing is reduced to 1, and when above 75% ends. Note: Levels of Spartan stack with levels of Fighter for cases such as Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization.
Operation_Shoestring 10-24-07, 03:04 PM	Oh for sanity' sake, if you can't accept basic advice stop posting homebrew classes and wasting valuable webspace. This PrC is WEAKER than a straight fighter, unless you play a low magic game. Also, DR/ranged makes no sense. Spartans were BETTER able to stand up to ranged volley-fire than most combatants of the age, they simply lacked the mobility to catch lightly armored and fast moving Peltasts, allowing the Peltasts to keep the range open and slowly wear them down with slings and javelins. Representing that with DR/ranges makes no sense, and DR/ranged doesn't work out well mechanically either.
bkdubs123 10-24-07, 03:31 PM	Yeah... you actually just give 7 feats which a fighter would get normally anyway, and a few abilities that try to compensate for having no magic items whatsoever, but just don't make it at all. At 20th level a Fighter can have all the prerequisites for this class, all the feats you give this class, and a few more, AND have magical items to boot! The DR helps, but isn't enough (Compare to Adamantine Full Plate with some enhancements). The Ability boosts are nice but are nothing compared with Belt of Giant's Strength, Gloves of Dexterity, and a Tome for +4 inherent bonus. Spartan Morale is just silly - yeah they'll hit alot, but good luck overcoming any damage reduction with that Masterwork Spear. Spartan Roar is just silly and doesn't really help enough either. If you want a Spartan that's better than a fighter (and doesn't use magic) watch what the monk does with his fists and then apply that to spears. Require prerequisites like Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Spear), Shield Specialization, Shield Wall, Diehard and Phalanx Fighting. Then go on to improve how group tactics work within the Spartan unit and give them unique abilities - rather than a ton more feats - that make them able to penetrate armor and DR and outlast any man on the field of battle. A form of Fast Healing isn't a bad idea (think of it not exactly as "healing" but as an inexhaustible stamina), neither is treating weapons as adamantine after a while for ignoring DR/hardness. Perhaps Uncanny Dodge and Evasion would be in order for the lightly armored Spartans. Combat Focus type abilities work well for a Spartan as well.
BananaB 10-24-07, 04:21 PM	Also, DR/ranged makes no sense. Spartans were BETTER able to stand up to ranged volley-fire than most combatants of the age I understand what you mean when you say that they aren't weak against bows, but i'm not giving them vullnerability to bows, i'm giving them DR and only bows can penetrate it. Its not that they are weaker then most against bows, they take as much damage from bows as anyone else, not more. But they are stronger against all other types of attack because they would be face to face with their opponents and able to use their superior combat skills. If DR/ranged is really that bad do you suggest making it just DR/-? If you want a Spartan that's better than a fighter (and doesn't use magic) watch what the monk does with his fists and then apply that to spears. Require prerequisites like Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Spear), Shield Specialization, Shield Wall, Diehard and Phalanx Fighting. Then go on to improve how group tactics work within the Spartan unit and give them unique abilities - rather than a ton more feats - that make them able to penetrate armor and DR and outlast any man on the field of battle. A form of Fast Healing isn't a bad idea (think of it not exactly as "healing" but as an inexhaustible stamina), neither is treating weapons as adamantine after a while for ignoring DR/hardness. Perhaps Uncanny Dodge and Evasion would be in order for the lightly armored Spartans. Combat Focus type abilities work well for a Spartan as well. Okay Spartan Morale and Spartan Roar are gone. I see that they are really not that good especially for the final stages of this presteige. I like the Fast Healing Idea but i'm not sure exactly how i should make it work, i would like some advice on how to incorperate some FH into my class. As for the monk statement, i was thinking maybe putting 2 weapon fighting as a prereque and eventually allowing a spartan to make an attack with his shield for every attack he has with his primary hand, with the same BAB. what do you think about that? Are there any other ideas for an ability to give more damage?
Operation_Shoestring 10-24-07, 04:38 PM	I understand what you mean when you say that they aren't weak against bows, but i'm not giving them vullnerability to bows, i'm giving them DR and only bows can penetrate it. Its not that they are weaker then most against bows, they take as much damage from bows as anyone else, not more. But they are stronger against all other types of attack because they would be face to face with their opponents and able to use their superior combat skills. If DR/ranged is really that bad do you suggest making it just DR/-? The problem with DR/ranged is that ranged fire is not the threat to a D&D Spartan (who is likely to be able find many ways to boost his speed so he can maul archers) that it is to a Greek Hopalite. Either DR/- or DR/magic, probably the former.
BananaB 10-24-07, 04:47 PM	Either DR/- or DR/magic, probably the former. In what ways is a Spartan weaker to magic as opposed to other forms of attack? And i'm still looking for a suggestion for helping the Spartan deal more damage.
Orenmir 10-24-07, 06:40 PM	If DR/ranged is really that bad do you suggest making it just DR/-? Gee, I wonder who already suggested that in your previous thread?
BananaB 10-24-07, 06:48 PM	Gee, I wonder who already suggested that in your previous thread? I know I know. My DM wanted ranged attacks to be the weak spot of the spartan. Thats why i was defending DR/Ranged so much, but i've given in since so may people believe it to make no sense. But i guess they are still vulnerable to ranged attacks since they can't use ranged weapns themselves, so thats good enough for that. I also realize i need more power. I need some suggestions about how to incorperate fast healing and some other form or major damage dealing, any ideas?
bkdubs123 10-24-07, 07:22 PM	It doesn't need to have major damage dealing. I hate how DnD classes have all become about how much damage per hit they can do. It makes me sick. All this class needs is a good way to deal damage. How about something like this: Spartan Strike: At 1st level, while wielding a masterwork weapon for which a Spartan has Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization his attacks are treated as Magic and +1 for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. At 3rd level his attacks are treated as silver and +2. At 5th level his attacks are treated as Lawful and +3. At 7th level his attacks are treated as Adamantine and Cold Iron and +4. At 9th level his attacks are treated as Chaotic, Good, and Evil and +5. Spartan Tenacity: At 5th level when a Spartan has fallen below 50% of his total hitpoints he gains Fast Healing 1. This healing ends as soon as his hitpoints are brought above 50%. At 8th level when a Spartan falls below 75% of his total hitpoints he gains Fast Healing 1, and when he falls below 33% of his total hitpoints his Fast Healing increases to 3. When his hitpoints are brought above 33% the healing is reduced to 1, and when it is brought above 75% the healing ends. A Spartan Never Falls: Spartans do not automatically fail saves on rolls of 1, nor are they ever subject to saves against Death by Massive Damage. Once per encounter on a saving throw roll of 1 a Spartan may immediately re-roll the save, although he must choose to re-roll before he knows the result of his rolled 1.
Ultima0071 10-24-07, 07:30 PM	It doesn't need to have major damage dealing. I hate how DnD classes have all become about how much damage per hit they can do. It makes me sick. All this class needs is a good way to deal damage. How about something like this: Spartan Strike: At 1st level, while wielding a masterwork weapon for which a Spartan has Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization his attacks are treated as Magic and +1 for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. At 3rd level his attacks are treated as silver and +2. At 5th level his attacks are treated as Lawful and +3. At 7th level his attacks are treated as Adamantine and Cold Iron and +4. At 9th level his attacks are treated as Chaotic, Good, and Evil and +5. Spartan Tenacity: At 5th level when a Spartan has fallen below 50% of his total hitpoints he gains Fast Healing 1. This healing ends as soon as his hitpoints are brought above 50%. At 8th level when a Spartan falls below 75% of his total hitpoints he gains Fast Healing 1, and when he falls below 33% of his total hitpoints his Fast Healing increases to 3. When his hitpoints are brought above 33% the healing is reduced to 1, and when it is brought above 75% the healing ends. A Spartan Never Falls: Spartans do not automatically fail saves on rolls of 1, nor are they ever subject to saves against Death by Massive Damage. Once per encounter on a saving throw roll of 1 a Spartan may immediately re-roll the save, although he must choose to re-roll before he knows the result of his rolled 1. ADD THESE ABILITIES. A spartan is too weak right now.
BananaB 10-24-07, 07:48 PM	Spartan Strike: At 1st level, while wielding a masterwork weapon for which a Spartan has Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization his attacks are treated as Magic and +1 for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. At 3rd level his attacks are treated as silver and +2. At 5th level his attacks are treated as Lawful and +3. At 7th level his attacks are treated as Adamantine and Cold Iron and +4. At 9th level his attacks are treated as Chaotic, Good, and Evil and +5. Spartan Tenacity: At 5th level when a Spartan has fallen below 50% of his total hitpoints he gains Fast Healing 1. This healing ends as soon as his hitpoints are brought above 50%. At 8th level when a Spartan falls below 75% of his total hitpoints he gains Fast Healing 1, and when he falls below 33% of his total hitpoints his Fast Healing increases to 3. When his hitpoints are brought above 33% the healing is reduced to 1, and when it is brought above 75% the healing ends. A Spartan Never Falls: Spartans do not automatically fail saves on rolls of 1, nor are they ever subject to saves against Death by Massive Damage. Once per encounter on a saving throw roll of 1 a Spartan may immediately re-roll the save, although he must choose to re-roll before he knows the result of his rolled 1. Thanks for those, they're pretty good. Have you written a Spartan before/seen these on another one? I like the fast healing, i'm definately putting that in. As for the Spartan Strike, IDK if treating it as cold iron and adamantine is necesary because without magic items to buy you'll have enough money to just get multiple weapons made of these materials. I do like the idea of the alighnment though. Maybe going lvl 2-magic lvl 4-good lvl 6-evil lvl 8-lawful lvl 10-chaotic or something. I also like the Spartan never falls, but i'm not sure just yet weather i should add it or not. I'm hoping to come up with a few more choices and taking the best one. thanks alot for the help btw:D Anyone have any other ideas or criticisms?
HCL 10-24-07, 08:06 PM	or you can make a fighter who uses a longspear, tower shield, and full plate, and not try to make a citizen of a particular city in greece into a prestige class?
BananaB 10-24-07, 09:19 PM	or you can make a fighter who uses a longspear, tower shield, and full plate, and not try to make a citizen of a particular city in greece into a prestige class? That would not be anything like a Spartan. And you can't use a shield and use a longspear, its 2-handed.
bkdubs123 10-24-07, 09:22 PM	Thanks for those, they're pretty good. Have you written a Spartan before/seen these on another one? I like the fast healing, i'm definately putting that in. As for the Spartan Strike, IDK if treating it as cold iron and adamantine is necesary because without magic items to buy you'll have enough money to just get multiple weapons made of these materials. I do like the idea of the alighnment though. Maybe going lvl 2-magic lvl 4-good lvl 6-evil lvl 8-lawful lvl 10-chaotic or something. I also like the Spartan never falls, but i'm not sure just yet weather i should add it or not. I'm hoping to come up with a few more choices and taking the best one. thanks alot for the help btw:D Anyone have any other ideas or criticisms? Nah, I just kinda pulled some rabbits out of a hat. I understand eliminating the silver/adamantine/cold iron thing, for some reason I was thinking that a Spartan couldn't have those, but he can so whatever. No problem, I'm glad you like the ideas.
Crimson_Concerto 10-24-07, 09:24 PM	I've suggested this ability to every Spartan class I've seen (and there have been a lot): I'm too sexy for my shirt (Ex): Basically identical to the Monk's AC bonus, but it runs off of CHA instead and you're allowed to have a shield. EDIT: Oh, and you need to let them use magic. Not letting them use it is absolutely crippling, and you'd have to give them VoP benefits to make it even close to working, and even then, if your definition of using magic in any way includes buffs or healing, they'll STILL be insanely weak. Really, it's just easiest to allow them to use magic and be done with it. Doing otherwise is more trouble than it's worth...
Rustmonster 10-24-07, 09:28 PM	Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Spartans are proficient with all spears, heavy shields, and Xiphos(masterwork short sword). Spartans are proficient with breastplates. Oh, it's this again. No. Just because you renamed the weapon to be something UBERLISCIOUS!!!!!11!!!!!!!! does not make it masterwork. This is the same kind of silliness as with the katana. You can have masterwork Xiphos/katana, and you can have standard Xiphos/katana. If you have a masterwork Xiphos/katana, it is because it is significantly better than a standard Xiphos/katana. They are NOT auto-awesome. No weapon should be auto-awesome. There is not property of the weapon that makes it better than a short sword/bastard sword other than some people happen to be fanboys. just my two cents.
Crimson_Concerto 10-24-07, 09:42 PM	As off topic as that is, Rustmonster, I really do have to agree...
BananaB 10-24-07, 10:13 PM	No. Just because you renamed the weapon to be something UBERLISCIOUS!!!!!11!!!!!!!! does not make it masterwork. This is the same kind of silliness as with the katana. Well if you look in the DMG page 145, it shows the Kanta as an exotic weapon. In the description is says that the Kante is treated as a masterwork bastard sword, so thats where i got the "masterwork" thing from. An being masterwork hardly makes a weapon an uber weapon.
tenguroEd 10-24-07, 10:16 PM	Also Spartans used a Fal Cata not a Xiphos EDIT: checked wikipedia I was wrong somewhat, the Sparans also used the Falcata, before the xiphos.
BananaB 10-24-07, 10:30 PM	Also Spartans used a Fal Cata not a Xiphos Actually both were used, they are quite similar. But Xiphos were the main weapon used.
Operation_Shoestring 10-24-07, 10:55 PM	I suggest Kukri instead of Short sword for Xiphos. (again)
yrogerg 10-24-07, 11:10 PM	Well if you look in the DMG page 145, it shows the Kanta as an exotic weapon. Bastard Swords are Exotic weapons, too.
tenguroEd 10-24-07, 11:15 PM	Actually both were used, they are quite similar. But Xiphos were the main weapon used. Ah, I thought they were 2 different type of swords, thanks for the info. guess I need to do more research...
BananaB 10-25-07, 05:29 PM	No big deal. Anyone with any other comments.
BananaB 10-28-07, 11:13 PM	Newly Added: DR/--, Extra ability boost at 1st lvl, Spartan Tenacity (fast healing), weapon alignments More PEACHing please.
IdleAltruism 10-29-07, 01:26 AM	Newly Added: DR/--, Extra ability boost at 1st lvl, Spartan Tenacity (fast healing), weapon alignments More PEACHing please. You've pretty much ignored the major problems with the PrC....and several people have pointed them out. As a standard PrC this is unplayable with the NO MAGIC restriction. No spells, no magic equipment=dead or useless character. This basically forces anyone who wants to play a half-decent member of this class to use VoP(which really isn't that good for most classes, fighter being one of them). The class doesn't give enough benefits and it really shouldn't, thats just way to much work and to much for a single PrC. This is basically a weak fighter with no magic gear, that is a problem. Theres really nothing special about the class. A couple of granted feats and alot of weird restrictions should probably be left to roleplaying. If someone wants to play a fighter that refuses to use a bow, sure why not. Making a class that picks that fighters feats for him and then forces him not to use a bow is very restricting(and from an optimization standpoint those feats aren't synergizing very well anyways). If you really want to make a spartan PrC focus on the shield. Give people a reason to use a shield and short spear. Give some shield bashing abilities along with some combos(something like the weapon styles from complete warrior). Possibly some teamwork benefits and maneuvers as well. Then you'll have something a little more presentable for these boards.
bkdubs123 10-29-07, 05:55 PM	Spartan Prereqs: BAB: +7 Feats: Weapon Focus (Spear), Weapon Specialization (Spear), Weapon Focus (Large Shield), Phalanx Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting, Agile Shield Fighter Lv BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1. +1 +2 +0 +0 Spartan Code, Spartan's Strike (Lawful), Diehard 2. +2 +3 +0 +0 Formation Expert, Uncanny Dodge 3. +3 +3 +1 +1 Spartan's Strike (Good) 4. +4 +4 +1 +1 Heroism 1/day, Shun Spells +2 5. +5 +4 +1 +1 Spartan's Strike (Chaotic), Spartan Tenacity 1 6. +6 +5 +2 +2 A Spartan Never Falls, Heroism 2/day 7. +7 +5 +2 +2 Spartan's Strke (Evil), Shun Spells +4 8. +8 +6 +2 +2 Spartan Tenacity 3 Heroism, Greater 1/day 9. +9 +6 +3 +3 Spartan's Strike (Adamantine), Improved Uncanny Dodge 10. +10 +7 +3 +3 Heroism, Greater 2/day, Shun Spells +6, Give Them Nothing Spartan Code: A Spartan never retreats. A Spartan never surrenders. A Spartan is a free man, and protector of free men. A Spartan will strike down tyrants at every chance. A Spartan will not rely on the wiles of wizards (magic and magical items) as a crutch, but can recognize them as being useful. A Spartan is required to make a saving throw against any spell or spell-like ability with a saving throw entry of Harmless. A Spartan may own only an amount of magical equipment less than or equal to 50% of his expected character wealth (by level). Spartan's Strike: At first level any weapon wielded by a Spartan is considered Lawful for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. At 3rd it is considered Good, Chaotic at 5th level, and Evil at 7th level. At 9th level any manufactured piercing weapon wielded by a Spartan is considered adamantine. Bonus Feats: At 1st level a Spartan gains Diehard as a bonus feat, and a 2nd level a Spartan gains Formation Expert (CW) as a bonus feat (Regardless or prerequisites). Uncanny Dodge: As the Barbarian Class feature. If the Spartan already possesses this feature it improves to Improved Uncanny Dodge. At 9th level if the Spartan does not already have it he gains Improved Uncanny Dodge. If at 9th level the Spartan does have Improved Uncanny Dodge he may choose to gain a Fighter feat he meets the prerequisites for as a bonus feat. Heroism: At 4th level a Spartan can manifest his bravery and will to produce great feats of combat prowess. He may cast Heroism the spell once each day, but the target must be himself. He gains an additional use of the spell at 6th level. At 8th level he may cast Heroism, Greater the spell once each day (in addition to his normal uses of Heroism) and gains an additional use of Heroism, Greater at 10th level. A Spartan does not need to make a saving throw against this ability. Shun Spells: At 4th level a Spartan gains a +2 bonus to saving throws against spells and spell-like abilities. This bonus improves to +4 at 7th level and +6 at 10th level. Spartan Tenacity: At 5th level when a Spartan has fallen below 50% of his total hitpoints he gains Fast Healing 1. This healing ends as soon as his hitpoints are brought above 50%. At 8th level when a Spartan falls below 75% of his total hitpoints he gains Fast Healing 1, and when he falls below 33% of his total hitpoints his Fast Healing increases to 3. When his hitpoints are brought above 33% the healing is reduced to 1, and when it is brought above 75% the healing ends. A Spartan Never Falls: Spartans do not automatically fail saves on rolls of 1, nor are they ever subject to saves against Death by Massive Damage. Once per encounter on a saving throw roll of 1 a Spartan may immediately re-roll the save, although he must choose to re-roll before he knows the result of his rolled 1. Give Them Nothing: At 10th level a Spartan may continue to fight and remain conscious, even taking full actions, until his hitpoints fall below -X where X equals 10+His HD+His Consitution Modifier at which point he immediately dies. Just throwing out more ideas.
IdleAltruism 10-29-07, 06:43 PM	Spartan Prereqs: BAB: +7 Feats: Weapon Focus (Spear), Shield Proficiency (Tower), Weapon Focus (Tower Shield), Phalanx Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting, Agile Shield Fighter TWF is an odd prerequisite for a tower shield wielder. You can't bash with a tower shield and it has a maximum dex of +2. Agile shield fighter replaces the TWF penalties while using a shield(basically giving them TWF while bashing with one). A Spartan never retreats. A Spartan never surrenders. A Spartan is a free man, and protector of free men. A Spartan will strike down tyrants at every chance. A Spartan will not rely on the wiles of wizards (magic and magical items) as a crutch, but can recognize them as being useful. A Spartan is required to make a saving throw against any spell with a saving throw entry of Harmless. A Spartan may own only an amount of magical equipment less than or equal to 50% of his expected character wealth (by level). Make a saving throw or what? What happens when they make the save? These anti-magic thing just don't work very well with D&D mechanics. These penalties are awkward and unnecessary. Spartan's Strike: At first level any weapon wielded by a Spartan is considered Lawful for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. At 3rd it is considered Good, Chaotic at 5th level, and Evil at 7th level. At 9th level any manufactured piercing weapon wielded by a Spartan is considered adamantine. This ability is very strange, I think its coming more from the above 50% crunch they took to gear. What about a spartan makes their 2 gp spear piece straight throw a golem made of adamantine? What makes their weapons good? Theres no restriction here that prevents them from being any alignment....Having two alignments of the same axis on the same ability is a bit strange(should probably stick to one) Heroism: At 4th level a Spartan can manifest his bravery and will to produce great feats of combat prowess. He may cast Heroism the spell once each day, but the target must be himself. He gains an additional use of the spell at 6th level. At 8th level he may cast Heroism, Greater the spell once each day (in addition to his normal uses of Heroism) and gains an additional use of Heroism, Greater at 10th level. Does he have to make a save vs his own ability :confused: Shun Spells: At 4th level a Spartan gains a +2 bonus to saving throws against spells and spell-like abilities. This bonus improves to +4 at 7th level and +6 at 10th level. This is almost the equivalent of an 8th level spell(protection from spells). The bonuses are pretty high might wanna tone it down to half. Give Them Nothing: At 10th level a Spartan may continue to fight and remain conscious, even taking full actions, until his hitpoints fall below -X where X equals 10+His HD+His Consitution Modifier at which point he immediately dies. I've seen this somewhere not sure where tho. Kind of a weak capstone, its basically giving a bonus 40 hps or so at 20th level, which is an epic toughness feat(from the epic forums not the book, two epic toughness feats from the ELH) or at that level +4 con(without the bonus on fortitude saves).
BananaB 10-29-07, 08:00 PM	Okay I've gotten some good ideas, I'll be remaking the entire class once again. Thanks for the advice.
bkdubs123 10-29-07, 09:48 PM	TWF is an odd prerequisite for a tower shield wielder. You can't bash with a tower shield and it has a maximum dex of +2. Agile shield fighter replaces the TWF penalties while using a shield(basically giving them TWF while bashing with one). Good Point. I wasn't aware you couldn't bash with a tower shield. Maybe I'll simply require Agile Shield Fighter and then at 1st level allow Tower Shield Bashing. Make a saving throw or what? What happens when they make the save? These anti-magic thing just don't work very well with D&D mechanics. These penalties are awkward and unnecessary. If you make the save you don't get the effect. If someone tries to cast Bull's Strength on you and you make save against it, you don't get the +4 strength. Its a drawback, yes, and mechanics like this already exist. This ability is very strange, I think its coming more from the above 50% crunch they took to gear. What about a spartan makes their 2 gp spear piece straight throw a golem made of adamantine? What makes their weapons good? Theres no restriction here that prevents them from being any alignment....Having two alignments of the same axis on the same ability is a bit strange(should probably stick to one) They are treated as aligned for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction, nothing more. Don't look at it like the sword is becoming aligned at all, but look at it as a Spartan has an unfailing ability to pierce damage reduction. What makes the spear pierce through the golem? The Spartan, his will, drive, and training. Does he have to make a save vs his own ability :confused: Good Point. Fixed. This is an exception to the rule. This is almost the equivalent of an 8th level spell(protection from spells). The bonuses are pretty high might wanna tone it down to half. Yes, it is almost the equivalent of an 8th level spell, but a bit weaker, and when combined with thee drawback that they have to make saving throws against buffs and heals it is a little bittersweet. I've seen this somewhere not sure where tho. Kind of a weak capstone, its basically giving a bonus 40 hps or so at 20th level, which is an epic toughness feat(from the epic forums not the book, two epic toughness feats from the ELH) or at that level +4 con(without the bonus on fortitude saves). You might be right, it could be a little weak as a capstone - I couldn't think of anything better this morning. Remember however that this was more an exercise in brainstorming than anything else (certainly not a fully polished class concept).
BananaB 10-29-07, 10:21 PM	Spartans didn't use tower shields anyway. Might as well just let them use their heavy shields to bash, that way makes more sense and doesn't give that pesky -2 penalty on attack rolls.
IdleAltruism 10-29-07, 10:32 PM	Spartans didn't use tower shields anyway. Might as well just let them use their heavy shields to bash, that way makes more sense and doesn't give that pesky -2 penalty on attack rolls. I believe the tower shield assumption comes from the 300 movie. They use the shields for cover, something only a tower shield can do.
BananaB 10-29-07, 10:46 PM	Spartan shields covered from knee to chin. A tower shield is to big for this and a heavy shield is too small, which presents a problem. The closest match, I think, would be a heavy shield simply because a tower shield is too big and bulky, the Spartan shields were desighned to not hinder their movement, thus a tower shield doesn't work.
CryoSilver 11-01-07, 10:47 PM	For purposes of them ducking under their shields, maybe it could be a class feature? Something that lets them use a heavy shield for cover.
BananaB 11-01-07, 11:06 PM	Completely Redone. I'm hoping this is a better version. If you like someting from this version or think i left out something good from the previous version let me know. Please PEACH.
bkdubs123 11-01-07, 11:26 PM	the abilities Unstoppable Charge and Spartan Will are a little oddly worded and unclear. the attacks made with his shield - do they deal damage (Unstoppable Charge)? With Spartan Will - what makes this better than the feat Diehard? Can they go below -10 even and keep fighting?
BananaB 11-02-07, 05:40 PM	In the descrpiton of Unstopable Charge is says that the attacks to push targets do not deal damage until the Spartan reaches 5th lvl, when at 5th level they will deal damage normaly for a shield bash but at no time do you get a +2 to the attacks to push aside opponents. I'm not sure what part is confusing, please tell me what is confusing so i can fix it. As for Spartan Will, I admit that wasn't worded well, i fixed it now, it was supposed to say that they can fight when below zero or even below -10. Meaning they can fight to -50 if they want but if their hit points are below -10 when the ability ends, they die. I also added that if an attack brings you to a point where you would usually die (-10 or below) the ability automatically activates. I've also added a 7 fast healing when below 0 on Spartan Tenacity. I hope i cleared things up.
bkdubs123 11-02-07, 06:04 PM	The extra fast healing when below 0 is overpowered. I would also add a clause to Spartan Will that says you can continue to fight, even taking full actions while you are above -10, but that even though you can remain conscious below -10 you can only take a single move or standard action each turn. I like the ability, but the class doesn't need to be anymore powerful. Unstoppable Charge doesn't really seem to fit this class at all. The aim of the class is a defensive fighter that can outlast anyone else on the battlefield. The aim is not a charge+strike fighter. Another thing you might want to do with Spartan Will is (and possibly instead of limiting them to partial round actions) cause the Spartan to fly into a mindless frenzy attacking anyone within range until the ability ends or until they are brought above -10 hitpoints.
BananaB 11-02-07, 10:35 PM	The extra fast healing when below 0 is overpowered. Realy? I can understand where you're comming from because fast healing 7 is quite alot. But if a Spartan continues to fight when below -10 he will most likely always die when Spartan Will ends. Without an adequit way to regain health the ability will just kill him after the first battle he uses it. I think the partial action is a good idea but i'm not sure about the "rage" ability. The "Give Them Nothing" ability is basically an adapted version of rage already and giving them another ability like this would be too repetative. Unstoppable Charge doesn't really seem to fit this class at all. The aim of the class is a defensive fighter that can outlast anyone else on the battlefield. The aim is not a charge+strike fighter. While this is true, I was trying to give the Spartan 2 styles of attacking for different situation. In battle the Spartans were either holding their place and keeping back the enemy or charging through and taking everyone out while doing so. Thats why I thought this could be a useful ability. It does synergize with some other abilities like Shield Slam or Leap Attack with are some of the Spartan bonus feats. The Spartan also can't guard a point if the enemy doesn't come to them, and in D&D it is usually best to get the first attack rather than waiting for them to come to you. With the Unstopable Charge you can charge throught the weak enemies to focus on the leader, and when you are face to face with that leader you can then use "Give Them Nothing" to take them down. I may be wrong but I think that Unstopable Charge can synergize quite well if used in the right way. But I may be wrong.
bkdubs123 11-02-07, 10:53 PM	I see what you mean about the rage after -10, I completely forgot about the change you made to Give Them Nothing (which is cool, I think). Yeah, of course they're gonna die after the ability wears off. The fact that they can even fight after being reduced below -10 is amazing in itself. Remember that nearly no one else in the game can do that already, and they do still have Fast Healing 3. You might get away with putting it at 5, but I'm not sure about that. Mechanically Unstoppable Charge is fine, I just see a disconnect between it and the rest of the class flavorwise. They never really seemed to be charging through and taking everyone out to me. There were times when they would break ranks and pick off a few of the closest targets, but it wasn't exactly like charging through 4 guys to fight a 5th one. It seemed more to me like a move and attack action (move up shield slam someone, move up stab a guy, move up etc...).
BananaB 11-02-07, 11:10 PM	I see what you mean about the rage after -10, I completely forgot about the change you made to Give Them Nothing (which is cool, I think). Yeah, of course they're gonna die after the ability wears off. The fact that they can even fight after being reduced below -10 is amazing in itself. Remember that nearly no one else in the game can do that already, and they do still have Fast Healing 3. You might get away with putting it at 5, but I'm not sure about that. Mechanically Unstoppable Charge is fine, I just see a disconnect between it and the rest of the class flavorwise. They never really seemed to be charging through and taking everyone out to me. There were times when they would break ranks and pick off a few of the closest targets, but it wasn't exactly like charging through 4 guys to fight a 5th one. It seemed more to me like a move and attack action (move up shield slam someone, move up stab a guy, move up etc...). Okay i'll take out the extra fast healing when below zero. He will still have Fast Healing 3 and hopefully he can get healed by a cleric before the ability ends. I know what you mean with Unstopable Charge flavour wise. I just thought of it and thought that it was a cool ability so I added it. If I remove this ability I will need something to replace it that synergizes well with the rest of the class, but I need some suggestions for what that ability should be based on. A previous comment mentioned an ability to use heavy shields for cover, perhaps something like this or some other aspect of a Spartan. Any ideas?
bkdubs123 11-03-07, 12:56 AM	Yeah, I like the idea of using a heavy shield for cover. Also, you might want to add an ability that adds the Spartan's shield bonus to adjacent allies. Just a thought.
BananaB 11-05-07, 04:51 PM	More Updates: I'm hoping that this will be basically the last draft. Anything you have to say will be heard and considered before the class is finished. ADDED: upped magic usage from 40% to 50% (40% was pointless) Fight in the Shade ability (see original post) Defend yout Brother (see original post) REMOVED: Unstoppable Charge (due to flavour issues) Please give any comments you have, I want the class to be the best it can.
BananaB 11-08-07, 08:38 PM	I realize that this thread is now dead. I just wanted to give thinks to everyone who helped develope this class. Especially bkdubs123, whom without i could not have gotten the Spartan to the point that it is now. I am still open to suggestions and will be Starting play testing soon. Thanks again to everyone. :D