Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tempest Stormwind 01-11-07, 02:29 AM	Strike Leader A Sublime Way Prestige Class by Tempest Stormwind Intended for use with the Sublime Way variant Marshal (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=752414) by Tempest Stormwind And the Sublime Way Variant Ranger (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=738077) by RadicalTaoist "Wait for it... almost.... NOW!" ~Knagrim the Swift, commander of the Red Diamond Commandos One of many credos associated with the Shadow Hand school is simple: The most effective blow is one struck against an enemy who does not even know he is in danger. Capitalizing on this are commando or guerilla units, capable of moving into position swiftly and silently and carrying out complex objectives. The best of these units operate independently of direct orders; they are often cut off from any support or backup and have to be able to think on their feet, improvising effective solutions to any setbacks between them and their objectives. Many of these units are commanded by strike leaders. A strike leader focuses on coordinating their teammates. Commando units led by a strike leader move even more swiftly and surely than others, and are even more deadly in direct combat, particularly if they get the drop on their quarry. To facilitate this, the strike leader's training focuses on the proper setup and execution of ambushes -- although such a situation is not guaranteed, it helps to capitalize on them should the opportunity present itself. The vast majority of strike leaders have had training as marshals with experience leading commando units, while the most sizeable contingent of other strike leaders come from the ranks of rangers (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=738077) or other martial adepts seeking to add a flair of command to their style. A not insignificant number of successful strike leaders -- particularly those with backgrounds as warblades or crusaders -- also have at least rudimentary competence as rogues. The odd swordsage has been known to become a strike leader, but such an occurance is exceedingly rare. To qualify to become a strike leader, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria: Base Attack Bonus: +3 Skills: Diplomacy 8 ranks, Hide 6 ranks, Intimidate 4 ranks, Martial Lore 6 ranks. Feats: Improved Initiative Maneuvers: One White Raven maneuver of 2nd level or higher, one Shadow Hand strike of 2nd level or higher, and one additional White Raven strike of any level. Stances: Must know one White Raven or Shadow Hand stance. Weapon and armor proficiency: A strike leader is proficient with simple and martial weapons, with light armor, and with shields (but not tower shields). THE STRIKE LEADER Hit Die: d6 Base Fort Ref Will Special Maneuvers Stances Lvl Atk. save save save Known Readied Known 1. +0 +0 +2 +2 Auras, cunning ambush 1 0 0 2. +1 +0 +3 +3 Officer's resolve +1 0 0 0 3. +2 +1 +3 +3 Lethal ambush, silent aura 1 1 0 4. +3 +1 +4 +4 Officer's resolve +2 0 0 0 5. +3 +1 +4 +4 Perfect ambush, 1 0 1 battlefield adaptation ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Class skills (6+Int modifier per level): Bluff, Climb, Craft, Disable Device, Diplomacy, Disguise, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (architecture and engineering, dungeoneering, geography, history, local, nature, nobility and royalty), Listen, Martial Lore, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim, Survival, Use Rope. Maneuvers: At each odd-numbered level, a strike leader gains a new maneuver known from the Shadow Hand or White Raven disciplines. He must meet the maneuver's prerequisite to learn it. He adds his full strike leader level to his initiator level to determine his total initiator level and his highest-level maneuvers known. At 3rd level, a strike leader may ready an additional maneuver. Stances known: At 5th level, a strike leader learns a new martial stance from the Shadow Hand or White Raven discipline. He must meet a stance's prerequisite to learn it. Auras (Ex): At every level, a strike leader gains an aura, as the marshal class feature. A strike leader does not need to speak to project his auras -- using a nonverbal cue such as a bird call is enough. Regardless of the nature of this projection, a strike leader's auras still extend out 60 ft. Projecting an aura is a swift action, and a strike leader can have one minor and one major aura active at any single time from any source (a multiclass marshal/strike leader, for instance, can only project one minor aura, not one marshal and one strike leader minor aura). A strike leader's minor aura enables him to add his Charisma bonus (up to his initiator level+1) to certain rolls, while his major auras provide a bonus equal to his officer's resolve (see below). As with all such auras, these bonuses are morale bonuses that do not stack with each other unless otherwise indicated. At 3rd level, a strike leader's auras need not contain any vocal cries at all; if an ally within range can see anyone under the influence of a strike leader's auras (including the strike leader himself), he gains the benefit of the aura. If the strike leader already knows the aura he would learn at the indicated level, he may choose a different aura of the same type from the marshal list. [i]1st: Motivate Agility: Bonus on Dexterity checks, Dexterity-based skill checks, and initiative checks. 3rd: Wary Guardsman: Bonus on Wisdom checks and Wisdom-based skill checks. Wary Guardsman, unlike all other auras, applies to sleeping allies (who may still make Listen checks). Allies under the effect of Wary Guardsman may don or remove armor in half the normally-required time (though they may require help to don certain armor). 5th: Assassin Tactics: Bonus on damage rolls when making a sneak attack, psionic sneak attack, sudden strike, or death attack, or similar precision-based attacks against unprepared foes as determined by the DM. Allies without these class features do not gain this benefit; a fighter does not deal extra damage with Assassin Tactics even if he attacks a flat-footed foe. Allies who have one or more of these abilities from another source (such as allies under the effects of With Extreme Prejudice, below) benefit normally. 2nd: With Extreme Prejudice: Allies gain +1d6 Sudden Strike (see below) per point of bonus. Allies who have the Favored Enemy class feature increase the bonus they gain from it by 1 per point per point of bonus as well. 4th: Motivate Urgency: Allies' base land speed is increased by a number of feet equal to 5 x the strike leader's officer's resolve.If you can catch an opponent when she is unable to defend herself effectively from your attack, you can strike a vital spot for extra damage. Whenever your target is denied her Dexterity bonus to AC against your attack (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus to Armor Class or not), you deal an extra 1d6 points of damage with your attack. The extra damage increases to 2d6 at 3rd level and to 3d6 at 5th level. Ranged attacks count as sudden strikes only if the target is within 30 feet; you can't strike with deadly accuracy from beyond this range. You can only use sudden strike against living creatures with discernible anatomies -- undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to extra damage from critical hits is not vulnerable to sudden strike damage. You must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. You cannot make a sudden strike while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are out of reach. You can't use sudden strike to deliver nonlethal damage. Weapons capable of dealing only nonlethal damage don't deal extra damage when used as part of a sudden strike. The extra damage from the sudden strike ability stacks with extra damage from a sneak attack whenever both would apply to the same target.Multiclass note: A multiclass marshal/strike leader may project any of his marshal auras as a strike leader aura (including using nonverbal/visual cues as appropriate) or any strike leader aura as a marshal aura. Regardless of their original source, major auras projected as strike leader auras grant a bonus based on the strike leader's officer's resolve, while those projected as marshal auras base their bonus on his command presence. Strike leader auras count as marshal auras for all marshal class features and feats that relate to marshal auras. Cunning Ambush (Ex): A strike leader works best if given time to prepare. His training involves reading the terrain and leading his allies through stealth techniques in such a way to prepare a lethal, cooperative strike. A properly-executed ambush involves two phases: the setup, and the execution. A first-level strike leader learns how to better prepare the setup step with haste and precision. If he takes 10 minutes, he may camouflage a number of allies equal to his class level. This involves a special Hide check on the part of each ally -- the ally can choose to use the strike leader's ranks in Hide instead of his own for this check, and he may take 10 (or 20, if time allows) on this check. A strike leader bestows a +1 competence bonus per class level on these special Hide checks. If every ally to be camouflaged has at least 1 rank in Hide, this setup can be done in 5 minutes instead of 10. A strike leader can choose to camouflage himself if he wishes to, and does not count against the limit on how many he can hide at once. If time allows, he can repeat the setup over and over, camouflaging a larger group. A creature camouflaged by a cunning ambush remains hidden until it moves. Allies of a strike leader are advised to remain hidden and lure targets into place, and strike as a single unit during the surprise round. The Delay action can be useful in sticking to the plan, executing a pre-determined strike pattern on your own terms when combat begins. Several successful strike leaders often use 'bait' in certain ambushes -- allies who are not hidden (or appear to be poorly hidden), but within striking distance of the rest of the company. Officer's Resolve: A strike leader has trained in the most grisly conditions, and it shows in his eyes when his subordinates look at him. It sends a single message: This is not a person you want to mess with. This resolve is most commonly expressed as the bonus a strike leader projects through a major aura, but it also appears elsewhere. He gains a bonus equal to twice his officer's resolve on Intimidate checks, opposed Charisma checks (typically to assert authority), saves against fear, and rally checks. Furthermore, his commander rating, Leadership score for cohorts, and command presence (if he has that class feature) increase by half this value. Officer's resolve stacks with command presence where applicable. Lethal Ambush (Ex): A third-level strike leader is capable of leading his allies through the execution phase of an ambush with lethal efficiency. Any camouflaged ally who is not surprised and has at least 3 ranks in Hide can take a full round's worth of actions in the surprise round following an ambush, instead of just a standard action. A strike leader does not need to be camouflaged to benefit from this ability -- in fact, he may always take a full round's worth of actions in any surprise round which he is allowed to act. Battlefield Adaptation (Ex): As the marshal class ability. If the strike leader already has this ability, he may instead ready an additional maneuver, as described above. Perfect Ambush (Ex): A 5th level strike leader is unequalled in how well he can orchestrate his hidden allies. When he leads the ambush's execution directly, his allies become even more deadly than usual. During any surprise round after setting up an ambush, the strike leader may choose to use this ability as a free action. For the duration of the surprise round, any Shadow Hand maneuver or White Raven strike he initiates may also be initiated by his camouflaged allies on their turns, provided they can see the strike leader as he initiates it. If he initiates a stance, allies who initiate that stance remain in it until its duration expires or the encounter ends, whichever comes first. An ally does not need to meet the prerequisite of a maneuver to initiate it, although he does need to be a minimum initiator level (see table 3-1 in the Tome of Battle). Regardless of a character's training as a martial adept, he uses one-half his character level as his initiator level for maneuvers he uses thanks to a Perfect Ambush. For example, if Knagrim the Swift camouflages his allies and gains a surprise round against his enemies (during which he can take a full round's worth of actions, due to Lethal Ambush), he might initiate Assassin's Stance, move up to his target, and initiate a Drain Vitality strike. All of his allies who had been camouflaged and act after him during the surprise round may initiate Assassin's Stance and/or Drain Vitality during that surprise round (if they are at least level 6 for Drain Vitality and level 10 for Assassin's Stance). If they initiate Assassin's Stance, it lasts until they end the stance or the encounter ends, whichever comes first. ======================== So, thoughts? This is my first PrC for the Tome of Battle, and was inspired by debate on the Sublime Way Marshal (which you should read before commenting on this; this was designed with that in mind). I wrote this all in an evening -- and I was tired when I did it. As such, your thoughts are particularly valued, since I'm not too sure on how well I did and I didn't have as clear a vision as I did when I rewrote the marshal.Those of you with the PHB2 will notice the Cunning Ambush teamwork benefits worked into the basic mechanics of this class. Fundamentally, the idea was to create a short class that turns the marshal stealthier, or gives marshal-like effects to any White Raven initiate. Marshals, warblades, and crusaders require two feats to get in (one is a Martial Study for the Shadow Hand maneuver). Swordsages and other ranger disciplines require three (two Martial Studies, or a Martial Study and a Martial Stance). Pack Leader rangers are the only class that has to spend only one feat to get in -- but they'll have issues with some of the skills (Martial Lore and Intimidate are absent from the Pack Leader ranger list) and suffer some pretty heavy MAD (despite this, they make an excellent entry route). Optimal entry is either Pack Leader ranger (for ease of qualification) or Sublime Way marshal (for better aura support) -- it depends whether you want to focus a bit more on yourself or on your team. The auras work independently of marshal auras but blend together with them if you're multiclassed, just like a lot of the Tome of Battle mechanics. I was obviously inspired by the Dread Commando (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050407b&page=6) in making this; a team consisting of several rangers, rogues, or lurks with levels in that class led by a strike leader could very much be the perfect living trap. Imagine walking along a desert and having several of these guys just bust out of the sand as a single unit with blades drawn. Finally, there's a bit of a joke hidden somewhere in this class. You'll get a cookie if you spot it.
MaverickWolf 01-17-07, 01:41 AM	I'm more posting in here to subscribe so I can chase down all the fun little links to the rest of the ToB stuff mentioned in here later, as I'm way past exhausted. I will say that, in my utterly incomprehending state, your marshal looks damn good, and I may need to see about playing one in the arena we play in every now and then in one of my D&D groups....
JonnySpaz 02-14-07, 02:50 AM	I really like this prestige class. I might just add it to my collection of available material for my players. Along with your new marshal, of course.
theotherdraxen 03-26-07, 12:33 AM	Sorry for the big bump here, but I've become very interested in this archetype. First off, this is a great piece of work. It has a lot of fun qualities to mess around with, and provides good thematic leadership for the archetype. However: To qualify to become a strike leader, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria: Base Attack Bonus: +3 Skills: Diplomacy 8 ranks, Hide 4 ranks, Intimidate 4 ranks, Listen 8 ranks, Martial Lore 6 ranks, Spot 8 ranks IMO, there's way too many skill prerequisites here. Skills are one of the few areas that people can go nuts with and pick out whatever they want. This class only gets 6+int skills, and having 6 different skills as prerequisites is a lot, especially for a class that needs to have a good charisma. Feats: Improved Initiative Maneuvers: One White Raven maneuver of 2nd level or higher, one Shadow Hand strike of 2nd level or higher, and one additional White Raven strike of any level. Stances: Must know one White Raven or Shadow Hand stance. These are good. A couple of level dips can solve this, or just take the Pack Leader Sublime Way variant Ranger. Weapon and armor proficiency: A strike leader is proficient with simple and martial weapons, with light armor, and with shields (but not tower shields). Cool. Hit Die: d6 Uh...a d6 seems kind of low. The Dread Commando has a d8, which, IMO, seems to fit better here. It's only one extra HP per level, but this seems to be a class that'll be in the front of battle more often that a Rogue might. The rest of the table seems right, IMO. I think you're missing some skills: Escape Artist, Gather Information, Knowledge (Nature), Open Lock, Profession, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Survival and Tumble. I might have a different impression of the class, however. I wouldn't have put Diplomacy on the list personally, but that's just me. Again, good job with Maneuvers and Stances. The Auras are just plain cool. I really like With Extreme Prejudice. Assassin Tactics seems like it might be potentially broken, though. It's mainly the bonus to attack rolls that worries me, but the class might be too MAD to raise up a smite-equivalent bonus anyway. Special note: A multiclass marshal/strike leader may project any of his marshal auras as a strike leader aura (using nonverbal or visual cues as appropriate). Additionally, he may choose to use his command presence instead of his officer's resolve on any major aura (even those learned as a strike leader) when he projects the aura. Strike leader auras count as marshal auras for all marshal class features and feats that relate to marshal auras. Perfect. This makes the Marshal a much more viable route. Cunning Ambush (Ex): Hm...taking a 20 on a hide check for all allies. That seems pretty powerful, but I guess since they can't move... I think that the ally's size should still count against them, though. Just because the Halfling Strike-Leader is small does not mean Camouflaging a Dragon will be easy by any regard. Officer's Resolve is a really good name for it, and the abilities are cool. Lethal Ambush (Ex): A third-level strike leader is capable of leading his allies through the execution phase of an ambush with lethal efficiency. Any camouflaged ally who is not surprised and has at least 3 ranks in Hide can take a full round's worth of actions in the surprise round following an ambush, instead of just a standard action. A strike leader does not need to be camouflaged to benefit from this ability -- in fact, he may always take a full round's worth of actions in any surprise round which he is allowed to act. Er, this one seems pretty powerful, especially considering that Strike Leaders are likely to carry Rogues and other Precision-based characters around with them normally. Well, the Invisible Blade PrC gets to feint followed by a full-attack, and that happens more often than the first round of battle, so extending it to allies isn't so bad, I guess. Battlefield Adaptation (Ex): As the marshal class ability. [I know I need to come up with something for the case of a marshal 10 / strike leader who takes this level LATE to gain a high level Shadow Hand maneuver, but I don't know what to give him. I'm thinking another maneuver.] Well, if two classes get Evasion, then coupling them gets you Improved Evasion. Maybe allow him to do this while using Adaptive Style? Best I got right now. Perfect Ambush (Ex): A 5th level strike leader is unequalled in how well he can orchestrate his hidden allies. When he leads the ambush's execution directly, his allies become even more deadly than usual. During any surprise round after setting up an ambush, the strike leader may choose to use this ability. For the duration of the surprise round, any Shadow Hand maneuver or White Raven strike he initiates may also be initiated by his camouflaged allies. If he initiates a stance, allies who initiate that stance remain in it until its duration expires or the encounter ends, whichever comes first. An ally does not need to meet the prerequisite of a maneuver to initiate it, although he does need to be a minimum character level (see table 3-1 in the Tome of Battle, using character level instead of initiator level for this purpose). If a maneuver depends on initiator level, each ally uses half their character level or their own initiator level, if any. Woah! Now this really looks like too much. I have no doubt that a Strike Leader can gain access to Warmaster's Charge, and granting that to 5 allies (assuming a 20th level party) means each will be dealing +50 damage individually, +25 for each ally within range, so an extra +175 damage per character. All allies charge the same flat-footed (suprise round) creature, and so long as each ally has one level in a class that grants them so much as 1d6 sneak attack damage (and he can give them that via Assassin's Stance), then the Strike Leader can hand them as much as a +10 bonus to attack and damage from his own charisma. If each ally hits, that'll kill about anything (1160 damage, in addition to whatever damage each member can deal on its own). I know it doesn't touch the Uber Charger, but this really seems broken, especially since the group won't likely be spotted thanks to the Strike Leader's camouflage ability, and then they'll charge in against a foe that can't defend itself against the charge (thus negating a lot of the balance that goes into uber-charging). It's a nearly sure-fire one-hit KO. I'm not nearly as experienced with this game as you are, so maybe I'm missing something. Finally, there's a bit of a joke hidden somewhere in this class. You'll get a cookie if you spot it. Damn. I was hungry, too.
Tempest Stormwind 03-26-07, 01:35 PM	IMO, there's way too many skill prerequisites here. Skills are one of the few areas that people can go nuts with and pick out whatever they want. This class only gets 6+int skills, and having 6 different skills as prerequisites is a lot, especially for a class that needs to have a good charisma.Which would you recommend dropping? Bear in mind, Diplomacy is key to White Raven, Hide is key to Shadow Hand, Martial Lore keeps the class from being automatic for rangers and Intimidate, Listen, and Spot fit the class's approach beautifully. I'm not opposed to changing those; they were just a quick thing at the front.Uh...a d6 seems kind of low. The Dread Commando has a d8, which, IMO, seems to fit better here. It's only one extra HP per level, but this seems to be a class that'll be in the front of battle more often that a Rogue might.And all the lead-ins have d8 or better. I wanted to emphasize the ambush feel. Still, d8 can make sense, I suppose.I think you're missing some skills: Escape Artist, Gather Information, Knowledge (Nature), Open Lock, Profession, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Survival and Tumble. I might have a different impression of the class, however. I wouldn't have put Diplomacy on the list personally, but that's just me.Diplomacy's on there because of White Raven. You probably do have a different idea of the class -- I based the list off of Marshal/Ranger, actually, with a strong hint of Dread Commando. You seem to have drawn it from Rogue/Ranger. I'll have another look at those soon.The Auras are just plain cool. I really like With Extreme Prejudice. Assassin Tactics seems like it might be potentially broken, though. It's mainly the bonus to attack rolls that worries me, but the class might be too MAD to raise up a smite-equivalent bonus anyway.With Extreme Prejudice is this class's special schtick, which is why he gets it so early (comparatively). Assassin tactics, on the other hand, was made almost as an afterthought; I could drop the attack roll bonus if need be or even completely rework the aura. I wrote this entire PrC in about an hour; some things are obviously going to need tweaking.Perfect. This makes the Marshal a much more viable route.It was intended for a marshal with aspirations of stealth, or a ranger with aspirations of leadership. Rangers have superior combat ability, especially the sublime way variant, so I needed to look at what marshals brought to the table. That was Command Presence -- a Marshal 15 / Strike Leader 5 has a +2 Officer's Resolve and a +5 Command Presence, which means he's one mean mofo if you let him talk (recall that the two abilities stack with each other where applicable, which means he's at least as good as a marshal in some regards. The additive effect reflects his specialist training, similar to how specialists are handled in the militaries I know about)... and he can grant as much as +5d6 sudden strike to all his allies, meaning he doesn't need to talk to take you down.Hm...taking a 20 on a hide check for all allies. That seems pretty powerful, but I guess since they can't move...Taking 20 on this would take over three hours, unless everyone had one rank in hide, which would "only" take an hour and forty minutes. And that's not even your whole party until you gain a few levels in the class! As it stands you often don't have the TEN minutes needed to use it -- but if you do, you may as well set it up.I think that the ally's size should still count against them, though. Just because the Halfling Strike-Leader is small does not mean Camouflaging a Dragon will be easy by any regard.They already do. The *ally* makes the Hide check, with all the Strike Leader's ranks but his own Dexterity, armor check penalty, size modifier, and so on.Er, this one seems pretty powerful, especially considering that Strike Leaders are likely to carry Rogues and other Precision-based characters around with them normally. Well, the Invisible Blade PrC gets to feint followed by a full-attack, and that happens more often than the first round of battle, so extending it to allies isn't so bad, I guess.At the level you need to be to pull this off, I didn't think it was all that bad, especially because you don't always get the surprise round. This class lets you capitalize on the suprise round like nobody's business, though, which is kind of the whole point. I look at it as a variant of Sneak Attack: Deadly if you can use it, worthless if you can't.Well, if two classes get Evasion, then coupling them gets you Improved Evasion. Maybe allow him to do this while using Adaptive Style? Best I got right now.That'd be a good idea if Adaptive Style was required or took up a swift action. The point of Battlefield Adaptation, when I wrote it for the marshal, was to allow melee options to synergize -- stances took a swift to change, major auras took a swift to change, minor auras took a swift to change... three rounds to adapt to a change in tactics is KILLER at level 10 (when this ability starts showing up), hence Battlefield Adaptation. A one-round dual-stance/aura might be an interesting idea, but that steps on the toes of the "pure" martial adepts that have similar abilities (Warblade and Master of Nine).Woah! Now this really looks like too much. I have no doubt that a Strike Leader can gain access to Warmaster's Charge, and granting that to 5 allies (assuming a 20th level party) means each will be dealing +50 damage individually, +25 for each ally within range, so an extra +175 damage per character. All allies charge the same flat-footed (suprise round) creature, and so long as each ally has one level in a class that grants them so much as 1d6 sneak attack damage (and he can give them that via Assassin's Stance), then the Strike Leader can hand them as much as a +10 bonus to attack and damage from his own charisma. If each ally hits, that'll kill about anything (1160 damage, in addition to whatever damage each member can deal on its own). I know it doesn't touch the Uber Charger, but this really seems broken, especially since the group won't likely be spotted thanks to the Strike Leader's camouflage ability, and then they'll charge in against a foe that can't defend itself against the charge (thus negating a lot of the balance that goes into uber-charging). It's a nearly sure-fire one-hit KO. I'm not nearly as experienced with this game as you are, so maybe I'm missing something.First, War Master's Charge requires, um, a charge. After they charge, they are in melee range and can't execute that ability anyway. As I said, though, I wrote the class in about an hour from concept to completion. I didn't do a lot of testing on that last ability and could quite easily add a level cap or something (similar to the marshal's Call to Glory maneuver). I do want the ability to have the entire unit execute maneuvers and enter stances at this point, since it requires at least five minutes to set up and you aren't always guaranteed to have the enemy walk into your trap (a huge part of the balancing factor of this ability, and this class in general, is that if you can't set up an ambush, you lose a lot of your potency; think of it as command-level equivalents of rogue flanking).Damn. I was hungry, too.Drop a few letters and spell it backwards. Look for slang terms. Thank you for your feedback! I'd assumed this PrC had died out.
theotherdraxen 03-26-07, 09:33 PM	Which would you recommend dropping? Bear in mind, Diplomacy is key to White Raven :doh: Nevermind, Diplomacy makes perfect sense here as well as on their skill list. , Hide is key to Shadow Hand, Martial Lore keeps the class from being automatic for rangers and Intimidate, Listen, and Spot fit the class's approach beautifully. Well, listen and spot aren't technically necessary, and neither is intimidate. One might have them, and they fit really well, but IMO, they aren't strictly necessary. If you're worried about balance, I'd suggest adding more feat prerequisites. And all the lead-ins have d8 or better. I wanted to emphasize the ambush feel. Still, d8 can make sense, I suppose. Well, an ambush leader is going to need to be durable. Ambushes don't always go as planned. It's only one extra hit point per level, though, so it doesn't matter too much. Diplomacy's on there because of White Raven. You probably do have a different idea of the class -- I based the list off of Marshal/Ranger, actually, with a strong hint of Dread Commando. You seem to have drawn it from Rogue/Ranger. I'll have another look at those soon. You're right; I was. I was hoping a friend could try this PrC out, and I figured that she might go the Ranger/Rogue rout to get here. With Extreme Prejudice is this class's special schtick, which is why he gets it so early (comparatively). Assassin tactics, on the other hand, was made almost as an afterthought; I could drop the attack roll bonus if need be or even completely rework the aura. I wrote this entire PrC in about an hour; some things are obviously going to need tweaking. I think that would be balanced. It's like Over the Top and other auras. It was intended for a marshal with aspirations of stealth, or a ranger with aspirations of leadership. Rangers have superior combat ability, especially the sublime way variant, so I needed to look at what marshals brought to the table. That was Command Presence -- a Marshal 15 / Strike Leader 5 has a +2 Officer's Resolve and a +5 Command Presence, which means he's one mean mofo if you let him talk (recall that the two abilities stack with each other where applicable, which means he's at least as good as a marshal in some regards. The additive effect reflects his specialist training, similar to how specialists are handled in the militaries I know about)... and he can grant as much as +5d6 sudden strike to all his allies, meaning he doesn't need to talk to take you down. Okay, cool. Taking 20 on this would take over three hours, unless everyone had one rank in hide, which would "only" take an hour and forty minutes. And that's not even your whole party until you gain a few levels in the class! As it stands you often don't have the TEN minutes needed to use it -- but if you do, you may as well set it up. Ah, I see. Okay then. They already do. The *ally* makes the Hide check, with all the Strike Leader's ranks but his own Dexterity, armor check penalty, size modifier, and so on. Missed that part. At the level you need to be to pull this off, I didn't think it was all that bad, especially because you don't always get the surprise round. This class lets you capitalize on the suprise round like nobody's business, though, which is kind of the whole point. I look at it as a variant of Sneak Attack: Deadly if you can use it, worthless if you can't. I keep forgetting that this only applies for the first round of combat. That'd be a good idea if Adaptive Style was required or took up a swift action. The point of Battlefield Adaptation, when I wrote it for the marshal, was to allow melee options to synergize -- stances took a swift to change, major auras took a swift to change, minor auras took a swift to change... three rounds to adapt to a change in tactics is KILLER at level 10 (when this ability starts showing up), hence Battlefield Adaptation. A one-round dual-stance/aura might be an interesting idea, but that steps on the toes of the "pure" martial adepts that have similar abilities (Warblade and Master of Nine). Well what if he got a variant of Shining Beacon of Authority? First, War Master's Charge requires, um, a charge. After they charge, they are in melee range and can't execute that ability anyway. Yeah, I over-reacted to that a little much. Besides, removing the charisma to-hit from that combo prevents him from granting all allies his charisma bonus to all their attack rolls via Assassin's Stance. Smite (while nova in nature) has a good deal of power behind it. Arbitrarily adding +10 to your attack rolls strikes me as powerful. Adding it to every ally was just more so. As I said, though, I wrote the class in about an hour from concept to completion. I didn't do a lot of testing on that last ability and could quite easily add a level cap or something (similar to the marshal's Call to Glory maneuver). I do want the ability to have the entire unit execute maneuvers and enter stances at this point, since it requires at least five minutes to set up and you aren't always guaranteed to have the enemy walk into your trap (a huge part of the balancing factor of this ability, and this class in general, is that if you can't set up an ambush, you lose a lot of your potency; think of it as command-level equivalents of rogue flanking). I see now. If the enemy falls into the trap, they die. First, though, they have to fall into the trap. If so much as one ally gives away your position, your plan fails. And if one of your allies happens to be big and slow, and the enemy has a scout... I see the balance there. Drop a few letters and spell it backwards. Look for slang terms. Well, I've tried. I'm sure someone else will figure it out soon enough. Thank you for your feedback! I'd assumed this PrC had died out. No problem. Too bad I hadn't seen the balance behind an ambuscade in general.
Tempest Stormwind 03-27-07, 06:26 PM	I've made the following changes. 1) I've added a few class skills. However, I have NOT removed the skill requirements -- the class is strong enough to require such diverse skills. The Hit Die's still d6, as I'm STILL not 100% convinced changing the hit die is worth it -- d6 reflects that this class has more skill points and more skills than the marshal as well as all my earlier reasons. The fact that you have auras that grant you sneaky tricks and quick takedowns plus access to Shadow Hand maneuvers (which are even faster takedowns) and enhanced ability to set traps suggests you'll play this character almost like a rogue anyway... except that you've also got better armor from your other classes in most cases. 2) If you already have Battlefield Adaptation (meaning you are minimum level 15 when taking level 5 in Strike Leader), you instead gain an extra readied maneuver. That, plus the high-end Shadow Hand maneuvers you can learn at that point, make it a very sweet level to take if you delay. The option of taking it earlier still exists, though, especially if you don't have levels in marshal to begin with (Rangers in particular should be interested in this). 3) I fine-tuned the way minor auras work to match up with changes to the marshal. I also edited Wary Guardsman: Since the Marshal's ability-check-auras (Motivate Power, Motivate Agility, and Motivate Endurance) gain special add-ons keyed to the theme of the aura (namely, boosts to carrying capacity/grapples, Initiative, and hit points), the Wary Guardsman aura now allows you to speed up how quickly you put on and take off armor. This allows your men to keep watch for your quarry and rapidly adjust to either front-on combat or an ambush, depending on what the scout reports. Since it also applies to sleeping allies, they can wake up and sound a call to arms very quickly under that aura, after which you switch to a more potent combat-oriented minor aura. On a related note, Assassin Tactics is now a specialized version of Master of Tactics, being a damage boost only. It still synergizes nicely with the With Extreme Prejudice aura, which is as I've said this class' signature ability. (All that on the ambushes just lets you really get the drop on things; most of the time the class isn't going to be doing that since the environment forces you to do other things). 4) I've left Perfect Ambush alone for now, but I'm definitely considering changing it -- even something as simple as requiring each ally to have 5 ranks in Hide to benefit from it. The most lethal version I can think of involves combining Assassin's Stance, With Extreme Prejudice, and Assassin's Tactics with Flanking Maneuver or Swarming Assault and a lot of luck in getting into position early (note that a marshal 15 / strike leader 5 has a command presence of +5 and can project With Extreme Prejudice as a marshal aura, which means that all things considered this would grant +7d6+Auras to allied attacks). It still involves setting up the ambush beforehand, though, so if it works, it works, and if it doesn't, you're a standard marshal with Shadow Hand maneuvers and a few unique auras. Cutting the "or White Raven strike" part clears that up pretty quickly, though. 5) I added a note on baiting, which is a very good way of ensuring that your enemy moves into the position you want. Technically, this is called the "tethered goat" -- essentially, you either leave someone or something uncamouflaged in the center of your formation (i.e. one of your men who appears wounded) or you make your force seem smaller than it is (i.e. take Fighty McClanksalot and possibly a few others like him, tie a few leaves to his shining armor, and have him crouch so he looks poorly camouflaged and open to assault from the rear, while the real force hides in earnest and covers for him). It's amazing how good this works if you do it properly, and on some fundamental level, the rogues who will find this guy an attractive leader will probably enjoy BOTH sides of the ambush (setting it up means they get good sneak attacks in, while serving as bait is similar to running off from the party and doing something daring on your own). I should also note that I AM considering changing the skill prereqs. By removing Spot, swordsages can qualify if they take the required White Raven martial study feats. (I found it odd that they didn't have it already... I wrote the class assuming they did have Spot, as I wanted swordsage to be a possible, yet rare, single-class entry point.) EDIT: A slight change to the way that a marshal/strike leader works with his auras. Instead of picking and choosing the best elements of either class, you now choose to project them as marshal auras (using command presence and the marshal's voice) or as strike leader auras (which are nonverbal but use the smaller officer's resolve value instead). Strike leader auras still count as marshal auras for all class features and feats. Minor auras are essentially unaffected by this change, too. I feel that this change provides a template for other classes in this vein to use -- I had an idea I expressed in the marshal thread that might see the light of day soonish, and I'm going to use that as the basis.
theotherdraxen 03-31-07, 06:15 PM	1. Again, though, skills are not the best tool for suppressing power. What skills you have very rarely impacts just how powerful you are. Rather, skills serve to help you define your concept while giving you a boost in power (but not usually the best boost). This is why Open Minded and Skill Focus are largely regarded as useless feats to have, and why the Complete Scoundrel skill tricks just aren't as useful as feats might be. If your aim is to control the power level of a character with this prestige class, then I suggest you add more feat requirements, raise the minimum BAB requirement, or something along those lines. By using skills, I believe you will find limits placed on concept, and not on power. 2. That sounds like a good reward for the marshal/strike leader. 3. That's a nice bonus, but it doesn't quite confer the same sort of battlefield advantages that the marshal's does. 4. IMO, that worst case scenario doesn't sound that bad. Each ally is granted 7d6+aura, right? Major aura already taken, we're down to Assassin's Tactics, which an elite array character focusing heavily on Cha will have about a 20 on (if they sacrifice in other areas for their MAD character), so that's a +5. So each ally (including the Strike Leader) deals an extra 30 damage (24.5 average SA, plus 5 from the minor aura). This is at 8th level. I'm going to count this as the Strike Leader's own damage, even though his allies are needed to do it. A charger build (something that functions along the same line of balance as an ambush: if it works/isn't countered) can achieve the shock-trooper spirited charge combo with 6 feats. Human fighter 8 has this and a feat to spare. Better yet, we'll use a human fighter 6/barbarian 2. I'm know you're an expert on ubercharging, so I doubt any build I contrive will be able to beat yours. Nonetheless, this charger will enter the battle with a 23 strength (15 elite array, +2 level, +2 enhancement, +4 rage) for a +6 modifier. Overall, this leaves us with about 80 damage ((1d8+6 str +16 PA)x3) before any sort of enhancement bonus on the weapon itself. With ride-by attack, he can also get this off more often than the Strike Leader ca ambush, so we'll assume that he can do this twice, for 160 damage total. To match this, the strike leader would have to have in the area of 3 allies, one cohort, and himself, which the standard set up allows for. One heavily optimized character excels about just as much as the other in their chosen niches. Also, in the case of the Strike Leader having one more ally in addition to their normal set up (as 5th level allows for), well he will do better, but that's how leader types are supposed to function. The charger is trying to compete with this leader on his home turf, after all. Plus, the average battle lasts 6 rounds, so there's potential that the charger can get off 3 charge attacks or more... This ability is still kind of powerful. Limiting it to once per day would go a great distance to curbing the power level, or maybe once per day per 5 initiator levels. 5. It's a good strategy. Glad to see rules being written to help people in using these mechanics, rather than sticking to the Ivory Tower game design.
Tempest Stormwind 03-31-07, 07:05 PM	1. Again, though, skills are not the best tool for suppressing power. What skills you have very rarely impacts just how powerful you are. Rather, skills serve to help you define your concept while giving you a boost in power (but not usually the best boost). This is why Open Minded and Skill Focus are largely regarded as useless feats to have, and why the Complete Scoundrel skill tricks just aren't as useful as feats might be. If your aim is to control the power level of a character with this prestige class, then I suggest you add more feat requirements, raise the minimum BAB requirement, or something along those lines.I think I'll cut the Spot requirement (opening it to swordsages) and add in some feat requirement. I hate to have to use Alertness or Stealthy, but it does seem to fit thematically. Another option would be to use Leadership, although the followers don't seem to fit too well. I'll have to think on this, but I'm open to suggestions.3. That's a nice bonus, but it doesn't quite confer the same sort of battlefield advantages that the marshal's does.Wary Guardsman isn't meant as a combat aura. It's meant to be defensive without actually boosting the ally defenses. It's also meant to compete with Motivate Agility as the strike leader's "default" aura -- give them a bit of choice, between boosting Initiative or making sure the team's aware of threats.4. *snip* This ability is still kind of powerful. Limiting it to once per day would go a great distance to curbing the power level, or maybe once per day per 5 initiator levels.I appreciate the analysis; I hit similar results although not entirely identical (in mine, I assumed that you'd get a chance to set up an ambush in maybe one out of every six encounters, while you'd get an opportunity to charge in pretty much *every* encounter). However, in deference to its potency, I did remove the "white raven strike" allowance, though, which prevents people from using Flanking Maneuver or similar attack-granters to dramatically multiply each other's attacks (the sequence would go Assassin's Stance, Shadow Stride, Flanking Maneuver/Swarming Assault, dependent on your level. The first one would be essentially a regular melee attack, but later ones would compound it to utterly *insane* levels, amounting to several full-attack sneak attacks in the surprise round. If you use Flanking Maneuver, Island of Blades would be a better bet than Assassin's Stance if your allies deal enough damage, but the worst-case-scenario there involves an *ally* in Island of Blades with you (and therefore, the rest of your team) initiating Assassin's Stance. I still opted to remove it because that's one hell of a gank, but I can be convinced otherwise if it proves necessary.) It's still strong, particularly with Shadow Hand ability-damagers or the Shadow Garotte sequence of maneuvers, but I doubt it's strong enough to be worth a per-day limiter when there already is an intense per-day limiter in there (ambush scenarios). Since you've just read a class based on it, though, you're assuming that an ambush is going to happen in the encounter, when really, that's a faulty assumption -- you're just working off of a sort of inertia, since each part of the class builds off of earlier parts. Think to your own game experience -- how often can you both spend five minutes camouflaging your team *and* lure the enemy to your location to fight on your terms? It's quite rare, in my experience -- although it might be common in some games, I doubt that's a consistent trend. ...By the way, somewhere in there is another hint involving the joke I mentioned. :p5. It's a good strategy. Glad to see rules being written to help people in using these mechanics, rather than sticking to the Ivory Tower game design.Incidentally, that's exactly what led to Perfect Ambush being what it is -- ivory tower game design will discount how often an ambush will actually occur. It's almost like Resist Nature's Lure in that regards -- it seems interesting, particularly if you have a swarm of fey in your games, but exactly when was the last time your game had a lot of fey in it? (Not to compare the two power-level-wise, of course...) Preview on the PrCs I'm working on in this vein, by the way: Just as this is marshal/ranger with a hint of rogue in theme, one of the others is warblade/marshal with a hint of dervish. The other... well, let's just say that he brought more soldiers than you did.
theotherdraxen 04-01-07, 01:55 AM	I think I'll cut the Spot requirement (opening it to swordsages) and add in some feat requirement. I hate to have to use Alertness or Stealthy, but it does seem to fit thematically. Another option would be to use Leadership, although the followers don't seem to fit too well. I'll have to think on this, but I'm open to suggestions. I really wish there were some other opinions on this here. The PrC board just tends to be a little slow. In any case, here's what I'd suggest: To qualify to become a strike leader, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria: Base Attack Bonus: +3 Skills: Diplomacy or Intimidate 6 ranks, Hide 8 ranks This way, the character must have ranks in hide to enter the PrC, and appropriate ranks to reflect their command style. In my experience, a leader can usually rely on allies to provide the skills he needs, even concerning his own role, so an ally can serve to spot and listen just as well as he can. Feats: Improved Initiative, Skill Focus (hide). Now here, we limit their choices in feats. Since it's obvious that you want this class to be entered as early as 5th level, we can take up no more than 2 feats without requiring certain classes/races to wait a level in order to gain access to this PrC. Maneuvers: One White Raven maneuver of 2nd level or higher, one Shadow Hand strike of 2nd level or higher, and one additional White Raven strike of any level. Stances: Must know one White Raven or Shadow Hand stance. If you're looking to limit it's power more, I'd suggest raising the level this class can be entered at. However, I haven't found a lot of overpowered stuff from here. I just noticed that I made an error in my analysis: assuming that this class could be entered by 3rd level. So, seeing as Perfect Ambush is a 10th level ability (and not 8th), I think we can agree that it's quite fine as is, unless there's a loophole I've missed. Wary Guardsman isn't meant as a combat aura. It's meant to be defensive without actually boosting the ally defenses. It's also meant to compete with Motivate Agility as the strike leader's "default" aura -- give them a bit of choice, between boosting Initiative or making sure the team's aware of threats. Ah, okay. I appreciate the analysis; I hit similar results although not entirely identical (in mine, I assumed that you'd get a chance to set up an ambush in maybe one out of every six encounters, while you'd get an opportunity to charge in pretty much *every* encounter). However, in deference to its potency, I did remove the "white raven strike" allowance, though, which prevents people from using Flanking Maneuver or similar attack-granters to dramatically multiply each other's attacks (the sequence would go Assassin's Stance, Shadow Stride, Flanking Maneuver/Swarming Assault, dependent on your level. The first one would be essentially a regular melee attack, but later ones would compound it to utterly *insane* levels, amounting to several full-attack sneak attacks in the surprise round. If you use Flanking Maneuver, Island of Blades would be a better bet than Assassin's Stance if your allies deal enough damage, but the worst-case-scenario there involves an *ally* in Island of Blades with you (and therefore, the rest of your team) initiating Assassin's Stance. I still opted to remove it because that's one hell of a gank, but I can be convinced otherwise if it proves necessary.) It's still strong, particularly with Shadow Hand ability-damagers or the Shadow Garotte sequence of maneuvers, but I doubt it's strong enough to be worth a per-day limiter when there already is an intense per-day limiter in there (ambush scenarios). Since you've just read a class based on it, though, you're assuming that an ambush is going to happen in the encounter, when really, that's a faulty assumption -- you're just working off of a sort of inertia, since each part of the class builds off of earlier parts. Think to your own game experience -- how often can you both spend five minutes camouflaging your team *and* lure the enemy to your location to fight on your terms? It's quite rare, in my experience -- although it might be common in some games, I doubt that's a consistent trend. Well, if I knew I was going to be able to yank as much power out of it as this class does, I might be setting them up a little more often. Then again, an intelligent enemy will work against that. Plus, any reconaissance unit with a ring of Spot +10 is going to blow a hole in whatever ambush you have set up, since your less stealthy allies can't push a 30 hide check, and the reconaissance can have a +30 modifier. Plus, he only has to hide himself, so you might find yourself counter-ambushed. In any case, it all comes down to the playstyle of the DM. I know in my games, you'd be hard pressed to get this ability off, since most enemies either catch you with surround as quick as they can, or you have to come to them. ...By the way, somewhere in there is another hint involving the joke I mentioned. :p Gank! Knagrim spelled backwards and without rim leaves me with gank, a word you mentioned! Do I win? Incidentally, that's exactly what led to Perfect Ambush being what it is -- ivory tower game design will discount how often an ambush will actually occur. It's almost like Resist Nature's Lure in that regards -- it seems interesting, particularly if you have a swarm of fey in your games, but exactly when was the last time your game had a lot of fey in it? (Not to compare the two power-level-wise, of course...) I never saw ivory tower game design like that. It's an interesting way of using it. Preview on the PrCs I'm working on in this vein, by the way: Just as this is marshal/ranger with a hint of rogue in theme, one of the others is warblade/marshal with a hint of dervish. The other... well, let's just say that he brought more soldiers than you did. Looking forward to it!
Tempest Stormwind 04-01-07, 11:57 AM	I really wish there were some other opinions on this here. The PrC board just tends to be a little slow.Yours seems to be enough for here. I sometimes get feedback on my work through MSN as well, so you're not alone in it. I do appreciate your opinion, though.In any case, here's what I'd suggest: To qualify to become a strike leader, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria: Base Attack Bonus: +3 Skills: Diplomacy or Intimidate 6 ranks, Hide 8 ranks This way, the character must have ranks in hide to enter the PrC, and appropriate ranks to reflect their command style. In my experience, a leader can usually rely on allies to provide the skills he needs, even concerning his own role, so an ally can serve to spot and listen just as well as he can. Feats: Improved Initiative, Skill Focus (hide). Now here, we limit their choices in feats. Since it's obvious that you want this class to be entered as early as 5th level, we can take up no more than 2 feats without requiring certain classes/races to wait a level in order to gain access to this PrC. Maneuvers: One White Raven maneuver of 2nd level or higher, one Shadow Hand strike of 2nd level or higher, and one additional White Raven strike of any level. Stances: Must know one White Raven or Shadow Hand stance. If you're looking to limit it's power more, I'd suggest raising the level this class can be entered at. However, I haven't found a lot of overpowered stuff from here. I just noticed that I made an error in my analysis: assuming that this class could be entered by 3rd level. So, seeing as Perfect Ambush is a 10th level ability (and not 8th), I think we can agree that it's quite fine as is, unless there's a loophole I've missed.I did want it to work by 5th level, which is why the skill prereqs were so high. The base attack bonus of +3 was to allow 5th level marshals into it. Skills are more likely to be Diplomacy 8 ranks, Intimidate 4 ranks, Hide 6 ranks, Martial Lore 6 ranks. The Hide 6 accounts for the "Pick Feat" stage of character creation / levelling up coming AFTER the "Assign Skills" stage, allowing for Martial Study (any Shadow Hand maneuver) on marshals to kick in. Diplomacy remains the high one since, really, White Raven is the focus on the prereqs (anywhere from 50% to 75% of the maneuver prereqs), and the only classes *really* interested in this entry have access to White Raven. Swordsages are the odd ones out there, and thus they get the latest access. Feats... Skill Focus (Hide)? Blarg, I'd wanted to avoid that, especially given how anything other than Pack Leader rangers also need at least one Martial Study to get in. It's not *as* bad as it could be, since the marshal gets a bonus feat for Improved Initiative... but still, as good as improved init is, it AND skill focus are rather boring as feat selections, and this entire class doesn't provide any benefit other than a slightly reflavored approach to the marshal if you're not using an ambush. I'm not entirely sure that's necessary.Well, if I knew I was going to be able to yank as much power out of it as this class does, I might be setting them up a little more often. Then again, an intelligent enemy will work against that. Plus, any reconaissance unit with a ring of Spot +10 is going to blow a hole in whatever ambush you have set up, since your less stealthy allies can't push a 30 hide check, and the reconaissance can have a +30 modifier. Plus, he only has to hide himself, so you might find yourself counter-ambushed. In any case, it all comes down to the playstyle of the DM. I know in my games, you'd be hard pressed to get this ability off, since most enemies either catch you with surround as quick as they can, or you have to come to them.True, which is why if this ability works, it's friggin' mean. But it really isn't all that mean until later levels -- at 1st, it's just a way of helping get a surprise round, at 3rd it's a way of making sure you work well in that surprise round, and by 5 you've got a potent attack sitting there. I'm wondering if there might be a way of boosting the ally's Hide checks somehow; I don't want to camouflage "the paladin", but characters with an average Dexterity and medium armor shouldn't be too hard to hide. Perhaps applying a bonus on that Hide check equal to his class level?Gank! Knagrim spelled backwards and without rim leaves me with gank, a word you mentioned! Do I win?:cookie:
theotherdraxen 04-03-07, 11:20 PM	Yours seems to be enough for here. I sometimes get feedback on my work through MSN as well, so you're not alone in it. I do appreciate your opinion, though. Okay, good then. I did want it to work by 5th level, which is why the skill prereqs were so high. The base attack bonus of +3 was to allow 5th level marshals into it. Skills are more likely to be Diplomacy 8 ranks, Intimidate 4 ranks, Hide 6 ranks, Martial Lore 6 ranks. The Hide 6 accounts for the "Pick Feat" stage of character creation / levelling up coming AFTER the "Assign Skills" stage, allowing for Martial Study (any Shadow Hand maneuver) on marshals to kick in. Diplomacy remains the high one since, really, White Raven is the focus on the prereqs (anywhere from 50% to 75% of the maneuver prereqs), and the only classes *really* interested in this entry have access to White Raven. Swordsages are the odd ones out there, and thus they get the latest access. Okay, sounds good. Feats... Skill Focus (Hide)? Blarg, I'd wanted to avoid that, especially given how anything other than Pack Leader rangers also need at least one Martial Study to get in. It's not *as* bad as it could be, since the marshal gets a bonus feat for Improved Initiative... but still, as good as improved init is, it AND skill focus are rather boring as feat selections, and this entire class doesn't provide any benefit other than a slightly reflavored approach to the marshal if you're not using an ambush. I'm not entirely sure that's necessary. I'm not sure having a heavy set of prerequisites on either feats or skills is necessary. The class has a powerful ability that functions pretty much as often as the DM's campaign allows for. An intelligent enemy can neutralize the strategy with a good spot check, and a reasonable DM can easily control any power issues caused by this prestige class. A DM out to get you will shut this down every time. Overall, the class has really nice mechanics and all, but I don't think it's so powerful that a character needs to put on a straight jacket just to get into it. Improved Initiative and 3-4 skills are all you need (as you have listed above). Beyond that, it's a little more limiting than it's worth in my opinion. True, which is why if this ability works, it's friggin' mean. But it really isn't all that mean until later levels -- at 1st, it's just a way of helping get a surprise round, at 3rd it's a way of making sure you work well in that surprise round, and by 5 you've got a potent attack sitting there. Exactly what supports my point above. I'm wondering if there might be a way of boosting the ally's Hide checks somehow; I don't want to camouflage "the paladin", but characters with an average Dexterity and medium armor shouldn't be too hard to hide. Perhaps applying a bonus on that Hide check equal to his class level? Sure. Just make sure it's a competence bonus so those nice sneaking magical enhancements don't stack with it. Or you could use the same rules as Armored Ease. :cookie: Taken!
Tempest Stormwind 04-04-07, 12:54 AM	I'm not sure having a heavy set of prerequisites on either feats or skills is necessary. The class has a powerful ability that functions pretty much as often as the DM's campaign allows for. An intelligent enemy can neutralize the strategy with a good spot check, and a reasonable DM can easily control any power issues caused by this prestige class. A DM out to get you will shut this down every time. Overall, the class has really nice mechanics and all, but I don't think it's so powerful that a character needs to put on a straight jacket just to get into it. Improved Initiative and 3-4 skills are all you need (as you have listed above). Beyond that, it's a little more limiting than it's worth in my opinion.Done, then. The prereqs now hold.Sure. Just make sure it's a competence bonus so those nice sneaking magical enhancements don't stack with it. Or you could use the same rules as Armored Ease.+1 Competence per class level on these special Hide checks. I was tempted to go +2, but that might just be overkill. I did also restore the ability to make White Raven strikes as part of the Perfect Ambush. I ran the numbers, and even the worst-case scenario (team of 5 20th level characters hidden plus the strike leader, one of them in Island of Blades, the strike leader goes first and uses Assassin's Stance, Shadow Stride (whatever the move action one is), and Flanking Maneuver, which everyone else uses (except the islander, who goes second and does what they do except he remains in Island of Blades). It's frightening and compounding, but it's nothing that these guys shouldn't be able to do. A limiter on it, though, is that people use those maneuvers at an initiator level of half their character level, regardless. Thus, the only way to pull that above stunt off would rely on a team of 18th level characters or higher, since Shadow Stride and Flanking Maneuver are 5th level (IL 9 to learn).Taken!Technically, it's "Mr. Gank" spelled backward with an extra vowel for pronunciative purposes. But yeah, go cookie. Barring any last discussion (HD, say?) and, of course, a picture, the Strike Leader is FINISHED.
theotherdraxen 04-06-07, 03:23 PM	Hit dice are probably fine. I could imagine some sort of variant made for a heavier strike leader (lower will save, higher BAB, and one bump in hit dice), but otherwise, it fills the role just fine.
LunarWolfPrime 12-29-07, 10:45 AM	only thing that could make this better is if you team mates where dread commandos or reachrunners or had lvls in both. Those pcs with lvls in those three working together sounds like a fantasy spec ops squad I love this prc:D
Watsyurname529 12-29-07, 11:32 AM	First off, nice PrC. I like it and it fits the niche quite well. Anyway I have one small edit, on the reminder for Sudden Strike, you should clarify that Sudden Strike does not apply when flanking.
LunarWolfPrime 12-29-07, 08:54 PM	First off, nice PrC. I like it and it fits the niche quite well. Anyway I have one small edit, on the reminder for Sudden Strike, you should clarify that Sudden Strike does not apply when flanking. Same should also be noted for the dread command the reason for that comment is this i have a idea of put a shifter roug 5, scout 5, reach runner 5, Dread Commando along side Strike Leader or btter yet have a strike leader work with 7 of the shifters noted above with the improved cunning ambush team work benfit. The real scary thing is that if positioned properly they would have a +35 to initiative. assuming thta every thing goes well that is agood way to drop 8 foes real quick.