Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tempest Stormwind 06-15-07, 03:08 AM	Dwarven Defender A Sublime Way Prestige Class by Tempest Stormwind This prestige class is a remix of the Dwarven Defender (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/dwarvenDefender.htm) from the Dungeon Master's Guide. It is intended to update that class for use with the Tome of Battle and synergy with the Deepstone Sentinel. Many thanks to RadicalTaoist for his help in ironing out this concept, and his impeccable quotes. "Yer welcome t' try comin' this way again, but I'm thinkin' ye won't be making more progress than th' last four times." ~Kardan Thakaz of the Argent Mountain, dwarven defender http://wizards.com/dnd/images/cw_ag/75469.jpg The fluff that would go here will show up later; you all know the dwarven defender. The fluff's unchanged -- he's The Dwarf, the Wall That Walks, the Living Tank, and all that. I would like to stress that in the naming traditions of the Book of Nine Swords, this class might be nicknamed the Iron Templar, the Stone Guardian, the Shield of Moradin, and similar. "Dwarven Defender" is rather bland, but has traction from being in use for years. Obviously, the most common entry route involves crusader or warblade (both of which qualify equally well and each has their advantages), but a single-classed dwarf fighter can enter only one level behind these (level 6), and a Dungeoncrasher fighter can qualify by level 9. A multiclass martial adept / fighter (*especially* a crusader/fighter) could qualify rather easily and enjoy a wider array of feats; this was deliberate, as Fighter is the dwarf's favored class. To qualify to become a dwarven defender, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria: Race: Dwarf. Alignment: Any lawful. Base Attack Bonus: +5. Weapon and armor proficiency: Proficient with heavy armor and shields (tower shield proficiency not required). Skills: Balance 8 ranks. Feats: Stone Power, plus any two of the following: Endurance, Improved Toughness, Shield Specialization. Martial Maneuvers: Two Devoted Spirit or Iron Heart maneuvers, and one stance from the same school or from Stone Dragon. Weapon and armor proficiency: A dwarven defender is proficient with simple and martial weapons. He gains proficiency with the tower shield and with dwarven exotic armors (battle plate, interlocking plate, interlocking scale, and mountain plate). THE DWARVEN DEFENDER Hit Die: d12 Base Fort Ref Will Special Maneuvers Stances Lvl Atk. save save save Known Readied Known 1. +1 +2 +0 +2 Resolute defender stance, 0 0 0 Phalanx Fighting, tradition 2. +2 +3 +0 +3 Improved stone power 1 0 0 3. +3 +3 +1 +3 Guardian +2, bonus feat 0 0 0 4. +4 +4 +1 +4 Dauntless 1, uncanny dodge 0 1 0 5. +5 +4 +1 +4 Vigilant defender stance, 1 0 1 bonus feat 6. +6 +5 +2 +5 Dauntless 2, guardian +4 0 0 0 7. +7 +5 +2 +5 Improved uncanny dodge, 0 0 0 bonus feat 8. +8 +6 +2 +6 Dauntless 3 1 1 0 9. +9 +6 +3 +6 Guardian +6, bonus feat 0 0 0 10. +10 +7 +3 +7 Adaptive defender stance, 0 0 1 dauntless 4 Class skills (2+Int modifier per level): Balance, Craft, Intimidate, Listen, Martial Lore, Sense Motive, Spot. Tradition: There are a few different traditions within the ranks of the dwarven defenders. Some have a strong emphasis on Moradin and the community, focusing on defending others through active use of the shield, while others prefer to hone their weapons and armor until no threat can approach them more than once. To qualify to become a dwarven defender, a potential warrior must have two maneuvers and one stance from either Devoted Spirit or Iron Heart. Whichever discipline they meet this requirement with becomes their traditional school. If a potential dwarven defender meets both requirements, he must choose one of those two schools as his traditional school. Furthermore, if a dwarven defender meets the Iron Heart requirement, his dwarven defender levels stack with any existing warblade levels for purposes relating to weapon aptitude. If the dwarven defender does not have the weapon aptitude class feature, this benefit has no effect until he does. Maneuvers: At 2nd level and every 3 levels thereafter, a dwarven defender gains a new maneuver known from the Stone Dragon discipline or his traditional school. He must meet the maneuver's prerequisite to learn it. He adds his full dwarven defender level to his initiator level to determine his total initiator level and his highest-level maneuvers known. At 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter, a dwarven defender can ready an additional maneuver. Stances known: At 5th and 10th level, a dwarven defender learns a new martial stance from the Stone Dragon discipline or his traditional school. He must meet a stance's prerequisite to learn it. Resolute Defender Stance (Ex): A dwarven defender's first lesson upon being granted his title is to withstand any adversary, firm in mind and body, one with the armor and shield he wears. While he is in a Stone Dragon stance or a stance from his traditional school, he may forgo its normal benefit as a swift action to gain the effects of resolute defender stance, which lasts as long as he would maintain his original stance. He may also stop using resolute defender stance and resume gaining the normal benefit of the stance as a swift action. While in resolute defender stance, a dwarven defender enjoys a +2 bonus on all saving throws, and adds one-half his class level to his AC as a dodge bonus. Furthermore, he enjoys a delayed damage pool in the same manner as a crusader; he may delay 10 points of incoming damage until the end of his next turn as if he had Steely Resolve 10. Resolute defender stance ends if the dwarven defender moves more than 5 feet for any reason. If it ends this way, he immediately assumes a stanceless state, but may re-enter resolute defender stance normally (which typically requires two rounds to do -- one to enter an initial stance and one to shift to resolute defender). If resolute defender stance ends for any reason, the delayed damage pool empties, dealing him the stored damage. Resolute defender stance counts as both a Stone Dragon stance and a stance from the dwarven defender's traditional school, although he need not be standing on the ground to initiate it (unless he is overlaying resolute defender stance from a Stone Dragon stance). If the dwarven defender has Steely Resolve from another source (for instance, through crusader levels), even if he gains it after he became a dwarven defender, his resolute defender stance changes slightly. Instead of granting Steely Resolve 10, it instead enlarges his existing delayed damage pool by 5 points. If resolute defender stance ends while he has damage in his delayed damage pool, only the damage over and above his 'normal' Steely Resolve empties; his existing Steely Resolve continues to function and hold damage until the end of his turn. In all other respects, resolute defender stance functions normally. Phalanx Fighting: The dwarven defender gains Phalanx Fighting (Complete Warrior) as a bonus feat. If he already has this feat, he may select a different one from the list provided below. Furthermore, his formation training and special status as a defender expands Phalanx Fighting's normal limits: he may use that feat with any light or one-handed weapon, and with any heavy shield, tower shield, or exotic shield (provided he is proficient with the shield). Improved Stone Power (Ex): The foundation of the dwarven defender's style lies in the deeper secrets of the Stone Dragon discipline. Stories maintain that experienced defenders can draw upon the strength of not just the stone they stand on, but the might of the very pillars that support the whole of creation itself, in withstanding an enemy onslaught. Beginning at 2nd level, a dwarven defender can use his Stone Power feat with any type of melee attack form, provided he is standing on the ground. Furthermore, when a dwarven defender uses his Stone Power feat with a regular melee attack, full attack, or Stone Dragon maneuver, he can increase the penalty to attack rolls by an additional -1 for every two class levels. The amount of temporary hit points Stone Power provides increases as appropriate for the total penalty. For instance, a 6th level dwarven defender can accept as much as a -8 penalty on his attack rolls with Stone Power, gaining up to 16 temporary hit points in the process, provided he uses an attack form that would normally benefit from Stone Power. If he uses any other attack form, he may still use Stone Power, but the penalty is capped at -5 in such a circumstance. Guardian (Ex): A dwarven defender is expertly adept at defending others. Starting from 3rd level, whenever a dwarven defender is adjacent to at least one ally and is using a heavy shield, tower shield, or exotic shield that he is proficient with, he may bestow that ally with a +2 circumstance bonus to AC. This bonus increases with experience as noted above. If he is adjacent to more than one ally, on his turn he may choose to distribute the circumstance bonus to AC from Guardian to any adjacent ally or allies as he sees fit as a free action. This circumstance bonus lasts until the ally is no longer adjacent to the defender or the defender redistributes the bonus. He may only choose how to distribute this bonus once per round. For example, Kardan is a 3rd level dwarven defender with Guardian +2. He moves adjacent to Jozan and grants the cleric a +2 circumstance bonus to AC. If Jozan later moves away from Kardan, any circumstance bonus he recieved from Kardan's Guardian fades. If Kardan were adjacent to both Jozan and Mialee, he could split the +2 bonus up however he saw fit between Jozan or Mialee (+2 to either of them or +1 to each) on his turn as a free action. Bonus Feat: At 3rd level and every 2 levels thereafter, the dwarven defender gains a bonus feat from the following list (sorted by original sourcebook). He must meet the prerequisites as normal. Player's Handbook: Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Endurance, Improved Shield Bash. Expanded Psionics Handbook: Psionic Body*, Sidestep Charge, Stand Still. Complete Warrior: Hold the Line, Improved Combat Expertise, Improved Toughness, Shield Charge, Shield Slam, Formation Expert. Races of Stone: Deflective Armor*, Energize Armor*, Exotic Shield Proficiency, Focused Shield*, Greater Heavy Armor Optimization, Heavy Armor Optimization, Invest Armor*. Player's Handbook 2: Active Shield Defense, Agile Shield Fighter, Armor Specialization, Shield Specialization, Shield Ward, Steadfast Determination. Tome of Battle: Devoted Bulwark, Ironheart Aura. See Below: Earth Fortification, Fist of Moradin. * Psionic feat. Dauntless (Ex): A dwarven defender refuses to yield even in the face of overwhelming pain, enduring it all for the sake of his honor, his clan, and his allies. Starting at 4th level, whenever the dwarven defender takes damage from his delayed damage pool emptying, reduce the damage by the indicated amount. Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a dwarven defender retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) regardless of being caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. (He still loses any Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.) If a character gains uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below). Vigilant Defender Stance (Ex): When a dwarven defender of this caliber enters resolute defender stance, his delayed damage pool size increases to 15 (or, if he has Steely Resolve from another source, increases that value by 10). Furthermore, if his resolute defender stance ends due to moving further than 5 feet, he does not assume a stanceless state, but instead re-enters his original stance. (This allows a dwarven defender to move and reactivate resolute defender stance in the same turn.) Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 7th level, a dwarven defender can no longer be flanked. This defense denies rogues the ability to use flank attacks to sneak attack the dwarven defender. The exception to this defense is that a rogue at least four levels higher than the dwarven defender can flank him (and thus sneak attack him). If a character gains uncanny dodge (see above) from a second class the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge, and the levels from those classes stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character. Adaptive Defender Stance (Ex): An expert dwarven defender is capable of entering his defensive stance almost reflexively, and can maintain it even at a subconscious level. At 10th level, whenever he uses a counter maneuver, a dwarven defender may also enter resolute defender stance as part of that counter. He must be in an appropriate stance while the counter is initiated to do so. While he maintains resolute defender stance, his delayed damage pool increases to 20 (or, if he has Steely Resolve from another source, increases that value by 15). Finally, while in resolute defender stance, a dwarven defender may also initiate and gain the benefit of one additional Stone Dragon stance or a stance from his traditional school. He still must follow all the normal rules for entering and maintaining a stance. Due to this ability, when he enters resolute defender stance as part of a counter, he may choose to retain the benefit of his existing stance in the process, similar to initiating that other stance while in resolute defender. Additional Options "We tried sendin' our boys down the breach but they bounced off that dwarf there." "Idjit! Send 'em again!" "We did, boss. They started bouncing off in smaller pieces." ~Anonymous goblin footman reporting to Grox Bloody Eyes, goblin lieutenant. Bonus rule on stance overlays and dualstancing Stance overlays, such as the Jade Phoenix Mage's Mystic Phoenix Stance, the Deepstone Sentinel's Mountain Fortress Stance, or indeed, the Dwarven Defender's Resolute Defender Stance transform one existing stance into another. The third-level Deepstone Sentinel ability, the tenth level Dwarven Defender ability, and the Master of Nine's Dual Stance ability allow more than one stance to be active at once in a condition where an overlay might be possible. (The warblade's superior Dual Stance ability comes in at level 20, which precludes PrCs with overlays.) If you have access to multiple overlays and have a means of dual-stancing, you can actually have more than one overlay active at once, provided you follow all the guidelines for all similar abilities. For instance, Kardan might be a Crusader 4 / Fighter 1 / Dwarven Defender 5 / Deepstone Sentinel 3. He enters Roots of the Mountain (a Stone Dragon stance) as a swift action. He might spend a swift action to overlay this with Mountain Fortress Stance, losing Roots of the Mountain's benefit, and then use another swift action on the following round to initiate Roots of the Mountain again. The following round, he could use another swift action to overlay Roots of the Mountain with his Resolute Defender Stance, having both Resolute Defender Stance and Mountain Fortress Stance active. Feats Fist of Moradin [General, Fighter] (This feat is still in development and will be edited in soon, perhaps later today.) It's not really for defenders, but this came up during brainstorming as OMGAWSOME, and it fits the theme. Earth Fortification [General] Developed by the only known duergar deepstone sentinel, Thangardt the Indomitable, this technique enables its user to take greater control of the earth around him, providing trenches, barricades, moats and other natural defenses to further augment his own abilities. Used properly, it can force an opponent into a narrower culvert than nature would normally provide -- a culvert guarded by a heavily armored dwarf. Prerequisite: Dwarf, Con 13, Wis 13, Earth Sense, passwall as a spell-like ability Benefit: By expending a daily use of your passwall spell-like ability, you may instead create a foxhole effect (see below) as a psi-like ability with a manifester level the same as the caster level for your passwall ability. The DC is based off of passwall's level (5th), not foxhole's. Special: To use this feat, you must be standing on the ground. Tradition dictates that you stomp the ground when you use this ability, but strictly speaking this is not required. Furthermore, this feat does not confer upon you the psionic subtype. It does not actually grant a psi-like ability; it merely lets you use an existing spell-like ability in a new fashion. Foxhole Psychokinesis Level: Marksman 1, Psion/Wilder 1, Psychic Warrior 1 Display: Ma, Ol Manifestation Time: 1 standard action Range: 20 ft Effect: Four 5-ft squares of loose earth, sand, snow, or similar unworked terrain (S) Duration: Instantaneous Power Points: 1 A quick burst of psychokinetic force rearranges the land nearby you, providing an emergency source of cover. By pushing the terrain away from a central point and piling it at the outer edges of the area of effect, you can rapidly create a mundane safe-zone for sudden combat. This power creates a small burrow three to five feet deep in the land, with a small wall that surrounds it which can provide cover for creatures within. Exactly how much cover is granted depends on the size and posture of the creature within the burrow, as if the burrow were natural or shaped by shovels. The shape of the wall can be altered mid-manifestation with a Craft (Sculpting) check or afterward with proper tools, providing parapets or arrow slits as necessary, along with other alterations such as steps or ledges if need be. Multiple manifestations of this power can dig deeper into the ground, providing a quick underground burrow, or can be used to extend an existing burrow into a trench. Foxhole cannot be used to dig through walls or foundations (although it could burrow around them) nor can it rearrange magically treated terrain. If the area of effect completely contains a creature’s space, that creature must make a Reflex save or fall prone in the burrow. You are not immune to this; if you occupy a square you displace, you may fall prone yourself. If a creature happens to be burrowing in the area of effect and would be exposed by this power, it emerges, prone but unharmed, in the trench. This power is frequently used in military applications for emergency trenches, when shovels would be too slow, and in extended voyages through hostile terrain where any bit of shelter helps. Dedicated adventurers have also used it to rapidly burrow under fortified walls, although foxhole provides no special protection for such endeavors, and tunnels made by ill-prepared adventurers have been known to collapse. Augment: You may augment this power in one or more of the following ways: 1. If you spend 1 additional power point, the burrow may affect four 5-foot cubes instead of squares. Only one of these cubes need be in contact with the surface when you start manifesting. 2. If you spend 2 additional power points you may manifest this power as a swift action. 3. If you spend 2 additional power points, this power can dig through harder substances such as stone or ice. Foxhole, however, cannot rearrange any material of hardness greater than 10. Foxhole originally appeared in Untapped Potential: New Horizons in Psionics, ©2006 Brian Dupuis, Will Elyea, Michel Fiallo-Perez, Greg Jacob, Anthony Ogden, Jeremy Smith. Foxhole is designated as Open Game Content. Untapped Potential is published by Dreamscarred Press and is almost completely Open Game Content. ======================== SOURCES: The following books have material above that wasn't already cited. Races of Stone (exotic armors/shields, including his proficiencies) Complete Warrior (Phalanx Fighting) Dungeonscape (Dungeoncrasher fighter variant; a very solid entry route, although slow at level 9 qualification). Be warned: This came together LITERALLY in under four hours, including typing time. I'm pretty sure it's a bit strong as written -- certainly stronger than the printed Defender, which I actually consider rather weak.This went through two major versions before final polish. Originally, I'd pitched it as a 5-level PrC very similar to the Strike Leader (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=770221) in how it was built. However, at RadicalTaoist's suggestion, it was expanded to 10 levels. As written, it's sort of a hybrid between fighter and crusader with just a hint of warblade present. It's a ludicrously hard nut to crack -- thanks to the addition of Balance as a class skill, it's even guarded against the typical "ha, ha, you're playing a defender" joke of Greasing the area. His AC is already very high thanks to his impressive armor and the shield he's no doubt using (there's a LOT of good shield support here, especially for Devoted Spirit defenders), and it goes even higher if he's in his modified defensive stance or has someone nearby to defend. His weakness lies in Reflex save-or-lose effects; there aren't many but they always tend to bone warriors. His mobility isn't all that hot either, although it's still strictly better than the original dwarven defender's. I fully expect to see Resolute Defender Stance used to help cover for charging, bull rushing, tramples, or overruns, especially since Stone Dragon provides all of these. ...mentioning that to RT, he naturally responded in his usual jocular fashion:"Heh, look guys, it's the dwarven defender! *snicker* Quick, we'd better walk briskly!" *He Boulder Rolls into the center of the formation and sets up Thicket of Blades. A round later, he's in defensive stance, has dealt out a bunch of AoOs and more or less ignored their counterattack.* "- Oh, ****! BRISKER!" While we're on the subject of quotes, I really, REALLY had to fight the urge to use this one as the class' quote: "Tryin' t' throw me around, are ye? NOBODY TOSSES A DWARF!" ~The dwarf you always wanted to play. Admit it. On a more serious note, you may notice the lack of DR and trap sense. Trapsense was originally in the 5-level version and was in the first 10-level version as well, but was removed in favor of Guardian. DR was replaced with a type of Steely Resolve. You lack this outside of your defensive stance, but you can also use your defensive stance at will instead of a handful of times per day. You also have incredible ways of reducing your delayed damage pool before it hits your HP (Improved Stone Power + Dauntless is AMAZING at this, provided you stay in Improved Stone Power's compatible attack forms), which amounts to DR in most cases. Do note that unlike DR, steely resolve works on spell damage. You'll fail the reflex save, sure, and eat a lot of damage, but all that will do is fill up your Furious Counterstrike (if you have it) and your Adamant Courage faster, as you're able to prevent a significant chunk of it. All of that said, if you're desperate for damage reduction, note that several Stone Dragon abilities grant it to you, as do a few of the bonus feats (Armor Specialization, for instance). By combining Resolute Defender Stance with Mountain Fortress Stance (Deepstone Sentinel), especially with either of the stance overlays (possibly with Roots of the Mountain), you can literally turn yourself into a little fortress. Even Telekinesis effects will have a hard time dislodging you, and you can probably convince dragons to sit down and back away. Two quick notes regarding the feats: 1) I have another feat that I was considering writing that allows a dwarf (not necessarily a defender) to substitute Con for Dex when using Combat Reflexes. I'm not entirely sure if I should write it up, though. 2) The psionic feats are there because of the duergar, and because of all the PHB races other than human, dwarves seem to be mentioned as psionic the most often. None are particularly dramatic -- most involve using your psionic focus to improve your armor. (The combination of Shield Ward, Deflective Armor, Energize Armor and Resolute Defender Stance is enough to make warmages and kineticists quiver in their boots.) Finally, I set out to solve a problem I saw with the Defender in general -- it's not a team player. A tank that doesn't move isn't a tank, he's an art object like a statue. A tank that isn't doing his job is a liability to the team, and the defender's inability to actually defend others is actually pretty poor. They also are supposedly lethal in a unit... but they didn't have anything in particular to support that. Thus, Phalanx Fighting, Guardian, the choice of bonus feats (which includes AoO setup, where AoOs are the big method of active defense in the game), and the ability to move in your stance from the very beginning. (Note that the drawback to Resolute Defender ending if you move can be avoided by using a swift to deactivate it first, then moving, reactivating it on your next turn.) EDIT: During revision, this ability was part of the class, and was eventually removed. It's retained here for food for thought purposes only.Adamant Courage (Ex): Stand fast, stand strong, stand firm: you are the last line of defense between a merciless enemy and all you hold dear, and you will not fall. Such is the way of the dwarven defender, who draws morale from absorbing blows in combat, knowing that so long as he lives and breathes, he shall defend his allies to the last, and every hit he takes is one his allies have avoided. Beginning at 2nd level, a dwarven defender gains a bonus to AC and saving throws equal to the amount of damage in his delayed damage pool (see Resolute Defender Stance above) divided by 5, and rounding down (minimum +1, maximum +6). Adamant Courage activates immediately upon taking damage and lasts until the delayed damage pool empties at the end of your next turn. If he does not have a delayed damage pool (for instance, non-crusader defenders not in resolute defender stance), this ability has no effect. The following table summarizes this effect for speed of play.Delayed Damage Adamant Courage Pool Points Bonus 1-9 +1 10-14 +2 15-19 +3 20-24 +4 25-29 +5 30+ +6A crusader/dwarven defender can benefit from both furious counterstrike and adamant courage at the same time as appropriate. For instance, such a character who has 15 points of damage in his delayed damage pool gains a +3 bonus on attacks, damage, saves, and AC. However, the adamant courage bonus will apply from the moment he takes damage, while the furious counterstrike bonus kicks in at the start of his turn, as normal.As always, I'm open to comments.
Karzach 06-15-07, 04:09 AM	My only concern is that this class supports the crusader better than the warblade. the expanded pool allows a Crusader/DD combo to ramp up his AC faster than his warblade counterpart. I'm not certain how, but you might want to throw something more directed at the Warblade in there (unless you think access to Ironheart is enough). Aside from that, this is fairly impressive. hmm, the Steely Resolve portion of the Resolute Defender stance doesn't do an Ironheart tradition DD much good until second level (unless the intent is to pair it up with stone power).
Tempest Stormwind 06-15-07, 10:30 AM	The intention is to pair it up with Stone Power, which gives the warblade a bit of additional defense. It also gives the warblade some more extreme armor and a good Will save without changing too much else (it's still full base attack and d12 HD). Warblades have the same ease in qualifying, actually -- a crusader would need to spend three feats to meet the feat requirements, while a warblade can select Endurance as a bonus feat at level 4, which means a straight warblade could spend a feat on Heavy Armor Proficiency and be fine. However, Warblade 4 / Fighter 1 meets the requirements even easier -- Endurance as a bonus feat, free Heavy Armor Proficiency, plus a fighter bonus feat (which can be spent on another prerequisite). This isn't the case on the crusader (who gains more immediate benefit due to advancement of Steely Resolve).
Aage 06-15-07, 12:08 PM	I might be completely off here, but as I believe I inspired this class maybe... I could be mentioned somewhere? :D Edit: This is so much better than mine though :) Me likes... Will perhaps try it out in an upcoming campaign... The only thing I dislike is the shield dependency... I'd like to think there are non-shieldbearing defenders as well.... Edit2: The endurance bonus feat of Warblade is at level 5...
Flamewarrior 06-15-07, 01:13 PM	TS + RT = WIN (by the way, another quote that shouldn't go unnoticed: "...those aren't dwarves. They have to be natural rock formations. Rock formations that yell, *hurt*, and won't let us pass.") Resolute Defender: you may wanna state the delayed damage pool empties dealing the stored damage. Adaptive Defender: if I parse it correctly, you may forgo a previous stance as part of a counter to gain resolute defender, and enter another (stacking) in a later round. It seems a bit strange that you have to lose and regain something that you can stack anyway - do you see a problem with it allowing the retaining of the stance prior to resolute defender, if desired? Overlay/dualstance rule: if Kardan was a dwarven defender 10, he'd be able to get a third stance, right? Con for Dex: feel free to salt this prior to considering, but how do you pull off an AoO-monkey crusader wearing mountain plate? While the answer could perfectly be "you don't", guarding an area through AoOs (which is your sole option against a dragon, as per your comment) seems the only reasonable way to go about it for a warrior in some situations. Maybe making this benefit only kick in if you already spent a round without moving (since yeah, a simple "may swap them" without any catches looks like a no-brainer)? By the way, was that your other idea besides the iron sheik?
RadicalTaoist 06-15-07, 02:00 PM	My only concern is that this class supports the crusader better than the warblade. the expanded pool allows a Crusader/DD combo to ramp up his AC faster than his warblade counterpart. I'm not certain how, but you might want to throw something more directed at the Warblade in there (unless you think access to Ironheart is enough). The big advantage for the Warblade is easier entry to other PrCs on top, most notably Master of Nine (can you imagine this beast dual stanced into Pearl of Black Doubt or Stance of Alacrity?) and Bloodstorm Blade (our walking wall just got cannon turrets). by the way, another quote that shouldn't go unnoticed: "...those aren't dwarves. They have to be natural rock formations. Rock formations that yell, *hurt*, and won't let us pass." I like that. The military humour inherent in this class makes for a lot of great lines. "Are you saying the damn dwarf's as tough as an iron wall?!" "Of course not." "Good." "On the contrary, when we send a giant to kick down an iron wall, the wall falls down. When we sent a giant to kick down the dwarf, the giant fell down. When I cast a Disintegrating Ray spell on an iron wall, it crumbles to dust. When I cast a Disintegrating Ray spell on the dwarf and he tried to pound me into dust. When we send a battalion to climb over an iron wall, they stand on top of the wall and cheer. When we sent a battalion to climb over the dwarf, he stood on top of the bodies and cheered. So with all evidence gathered, High Warlord, we can only conclude the dwarf is tougher than an iron wall." Resolute Defender: you may wanna state the delayed damage pool empties dealing the stored damage. Ahh, good catch. By the way, was that your other idea besides the iron sheik? Close but not quite. His other idea was heresy! Madness!
Tempest Stormwind 06-15-07, 02:10 PM	TS + RT = WIN (by the way, another quote that shouldn't go unnoticed: "...those aren't dwarves. They have to be natural rock formations. Rock formations that yell, *hurt*, and won't let us pass.")Right, THAT was the line... I was trying to find it, but he brought out that second one (the goblin footman) before I could, and that one was better.Resolute Defender: you may wanna state the delayed damage pool empties dealing the stored damage.Done.Adaptive Defender: if I parse it correctly, you may forgo a previous stance as part of a counter to gain resolute defender, and enter another (stacking) in a later round. It seems a bit strange that you have to lose and regain something that you can stack anyway - do you see a problem with it allowing the retaining of the stance prior to resolute defender, if desired?That *is*, technically, correct, though I think I'll add a small line to the dualstance section that lets it reactively dualstance.Overlay/dualstance rule: if Kardan was a dwarven defender 10, he'd be able to get a third stance, right?Only if it were Stone Dragon (since you need a Stone Dragon stance to overlay with Mountain Fortress, while you can overlay either a Stone Dragon or an Iron Heart/Devoted Spirit stance with Resolute Defender. However, yes, if you spent the time to set up such a complex maneuver, you could use Mountain Fortress, Resolute Defender, and a Stone Dragon stance of your choice (I'd suggest Roots of the Mountain -- "I AM the ground.").Con for Dex: feel free to salt this prior to considering, but how do you pull off an AoO-monkey crusader wearing mountain plate? While the answer could perfectly be "you don't", guarding an area through AoOs (which is your sole option against a dragon, as per your comment) seems the only reasonable way to go about it for a warrior in some situations. Maybe making this benefit only kick in if you already spent a round without moving (since yeah, a simple "may swap them" without any catches looks like a no-brainer)?This is what I'm wondering as well. That's one area I'd like to open up to the boards to develop.By the way, was that your other idea besides the iron sheik?No, actually; this was just something I've had in the back of my mind for a while. The other idea (the one I'm working on on-again-off-again with theotherdraxen) is... damn, RT hinted at it earlier. Although in truth it's nothing quite so primal (it's aimed at the warblade, with the marshal as a secondary)... it would still work wonderfully with this class, though.
Flamewarrior 06-15-07, 02:22 PM	I like that. The military humour inherent in this class makes for a lot of great lines. "Are you saying the damn dwarf's as tough as an iron wall?!" "Of course not." "Good." "On the contrary, when we send a giant to kick down an iron wall, the wall falls down. When we sent a giant to kick down the dwarf, the giant fell down. When I cast a Disintegrating Ray spell on an iron wall, it crumbles to dust. When I cast a Disintegrating Ray spell on the dwarf and he tried to pound me into dust. When we send a battalion to climb over an iron wall, they stand on top of the wall and cheer. When we sent a battalion to climb over the dwarf, he stood on top of the bodies and cheered. So with all evidence gathered, High Warlord, we can only conclude the dwarf is tougher than an iron wall."The "I like that" somewhat sounded like you saying "good joke you made", but that's yours (marshal thread). And I don't think I have the time to type enough smilies to accurately represent my reaction to your account ... don't feel exhibitionist for putting this as new "LOL for the moment" - it deserves it. Only if it were Stone Dragon (since you need a Stone Dragon stance to overlay with Mountain Fortress, while you can overlay either a Stone Dragon or an Iron Heart/Devoted Spirit stance with Resolute Defender. However, yes, if you spent the time to set up such a complex maneuver, you could use Mountain Fortress, Resolute Defender, and a Stone Dragon stance of your choice (I'd suggest Roots of the Mountain -- "I AM the ground.").Ah, yes, Stone Dragon only; and, the complexity of this decreases if the note about reactive dualstancing is included. By the way, kudos for making a serious class (and heroic to boot) where every other comment is a joke.
RadicalTaoist 06-15-07, 02:38 PM	The "I like that" somewhat sounded like you saying "good joke you made", but that's yours (marshal thread). And I don't think I have the time to type enough smilies to accurately represent my reaction to your account ... don't feel exhibitionist for putting this as new "LOL for the moment" - it deserves it. Wait, I came up with that? No way!
Tempest Stormwind 06-15-07, 02:42 PM	Ah, yes, Stone Dragon only; and, the complexity of this decreases if the note about reactive dualstancing is included. It's in there, but not as clear as I'd like it now. I'm mostly curious about NEGATIVE feedback at this point, or is it all right as is? I'm concerned about it being a bit *too* strong, especially with good feat choices. (In addition to incredible AC and Steely Resolve, he has awesome saves (which get better if he's in a shield wall, which he's very good at and can use Guardian with) and the capability to apply both his armor and his shield bonus to his touch AC (Deflective Armor + Shield Ward, although the former requires Wild Talent or a duergar race). By the way, kudos for making a serious class (and heroic to boot) where every other comment is a joke.It's official: Dwarves are the new gnomes.Wait, I came up with that? No way!Yes, you did. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10861947&postcount=18) Aage: A dwarven defender without a shield just feels... wrong. Like a knight in leather armor. You're a DWARVEN DEFENDER, if you don't have at least double your body weight in armor, you're not armored enough. :P Hence the piles of support to make the shield an extension of his body.
Aage 06-15-07, 02:57 PM	Aage: A dwarven defender without a shield just feels... wrong. Like a knight in leather armor. You're a DWARVEN DEFENDER, if you don't have at least double your body weight in armor, you're not armored enough. :P Hence the piles of support to make the shield an extension of his body. "Tryin' t' throw me around, are ye? NOBODY TOSSES A DWARF!" ~The dwarf you always wanted to play. Admit it. THAT dwarf does not use a shield, if you see him as a defender :D I see what you mean though, I'd just like the option to go no-shield... He does have a lot of AC bonuses, which of course is part of the class flavour... To much? I'm no balance expert, but since you gain AC Bonus by being in the stance, and then even more AC bonus for being hit in the stance, perhaps you could cut the AC bonus from the stance itself?
Tempest Stormwind 06-15-07, 03:01 PM	THAT dwarf does not use a shield, if you see him as a defender :D I see what you mean though, I'd just like the option to go no-shield... Gimli's not a defender. Just because he's a dwarf doesn't mean he's a defender. You *do* have the option to go no-shield. There's a way to qualify without taking Shield Specialization, plenty of non-shield bonus feats available, and the only class features that require shields are Phalanx Fighting (big whoop, chances are you aren't in formation anyway) and Guardian. Since you'll be hit more often, Adamant Courage will kick in more often to counter the loss of a shield. Do note that Stone Power doesn't distinguish between 1-handers and 2-handers the way Power Attack does.
RadicalTaoist 06-15-07, 03:07 PM	Yes, you did. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10861947&postcount=18) ...Wow, didn't remember that at all. Aage: a spiked chain wielding defender is a more than viable approach.
Flamewarrior 06-15-07, 03:08 PM	Biggest issues: AC, saves and feats. First off, I don't consider the AC bonus higher than +11 (not that it's little), since I feel it's almost dumb to use guardian on yourself having supposedly squishier companions adjacent; saves: no kidding - if you keep still and taking damage, they're high; but it looks like you simply have a penchant for highly situational PrCs, since I bet the strike leader would be more important if catered to by the right circumstances (IME, having a packed and nonmoving fight at high levels is rare, and that's where this class thrives). The worst-seeming is that I feel the masterwork fighter doesn't need a kick in the balls by you giving out 5 feats in 10 levels - level 5 is very fat, so you could make the selectable feats kick in just at 3 and 7, and I think that's it. By the way, "no two-handed PA" seems more than enough a nuisance - it only worries me with a couple oddball feats for using longspear and shield (I liked those, but they undoubtedly make the defender into too much). Argh - I didn't watch 300; it took me some time to get the hint ...
Karzach 06-15-07, 03:38 PM	Another comment about the crusader base, particularly in response to Adamant courage. Does the Crusader's innate steely resolve work for Adamant Courage, or does the character have to be using Resolute Defender Stance to gain the benefit of it? Also, while I'm thinking about it, would I be right in assuming a warblade DD wouldn't gain the benefits of furious counterstrike?
Flamewarrior 06-15-07, 04:21 PM	AFAICT, steely resolve and the stance's delayed damage pool count as exactly the same; so, steely resolve powers adamant courage (by the way, the table goes over 10 damage, reinforcing the hypothesis), and no furious counterstrike (being it a separate ability) for a noncrusader.
Tempest Stormwind 06-15-07, 04:29 PM	Another comment about the crusader base, particularly in response to Adamant courage. Does the Crusader's innate steely resolve work for Adamant Courage, or does the character have to be using Resolute Defender Stance to gain the benefit of it? Also, while I'm thinking about it, would I be right in assuming a warblade DD wouldn't gain the benefits of furious counterstrike? Yes and yes. Think of it this way. You have one delayed damage pool. It gets bigger if you're in Resolute Defender. You have two abilities that trigger off of damage in your delayed damage pool -- one that kicks in immediately boosting your saves and AC, another that kicks in at the start of your next turn that increases your attacks and damage. If you're not a crusader, you don't have Furious Counterstrike (or a delayed damage pool outside of Resolute Defender), so you don't get the attack/damage bonus. However, one level of Crusader would give you both of these things, and they stack up with what you've already got. You'd also get a pile of new maneuvers to draw upon -- and with Extra Granted Maeuver, if you apply both your DD readies to the crusader but none of the maneuvers known, you are continually granted all five of your crusader maneuvers every round. (This is an interesting tactic for warblade/defenders: Take a single late level of Crusader (character level 9, say, for IL 5 and a feat) and gain a LOT in return.) This class naturally works better with crusaders than warblades. Warblade is still a passable entry (Iron Heart Surge in particular, but the ability to sweep attacks in an area, heal yourself, block incoming blows that you can't stand, and so on are still nice) but crusader is where this particular class is at. Crusaders Don't Die. Dwarven Defenders Don't Die. Crusaders wear heavy armor. So do Dwarven Defenders. It seemed like a good enough match. One area to explore to make it more interesting for warblades is to establish a minor overlap with Steely Resolve: have it grant Steely Resolve 10/15/20, but if you already have Steely Resolve, it merely increases its value by 5/10/15 instead. Flamewarrior: 1) During development, I considered altering Guardian so it cannot affect yourself. I can't remember why I didn't implement it that way. 2) You *can* move while in this stance -- 5' steps are fine, and once you hit level 5 you can move and reactivate it (although you lose your Adamant Courage bonuses while you do so, it still lets you move about more or less freely, which is especially useful with maneuvers like Boulder Roll and abilites like the Deepstone Sentinel's charge). 3) The 5 feats are from a far smaller list than the fighter's, and unlike the masterwork fighter's they can't be changed around. It also doesn't advance the fighter's Height of Battle abilities, nor does it advance combat styles or anything else connected to it. 4) Level 5 is deliberately fat. It's a breakpoint in the class. By this point you're level 10 and are choosing your last 10 levels, which could be another PrC, more base class, the rest of this plus another 5-level PrC, or what have you. Do note as well that the maneuver progression is deliberately slower than other PrCs, which tend to grant new maneuvers at the same rate as most base classes.
Flamewarrior 06-15-07, 04:43 PM	Flamewarrior: 1) During development, I considered altering Guardian so it cannot affect yourself. I can't remember why I didn't implement it that way. 2) You *can* move while in this stance -- 5' steps are fine, and once you hit level 5 you can move and reactivate it (although you lose your Adamant Courage bonuses while you do so, it still lets you move about more or less freely, which is especially useful with maneuvers like Boulder Roll and abilites like the Deepstone Sentinel's charge). 3) The 5 feats are from a far smaller list than the fighter's, and unlike the masterwork fighter's they can't be changed around. It also doesn't advance the fighter's Height of Battle abilities, nor does it advance combat styles or anything else connected to it. 4) Level 5 is deliberately fat. It's a breakpoint in the class. By this point you're level 10 and are choosing your last 10 levels, which could be another PrC, more base class, the rest of this plus another 5-level PrC, or what have you. Do note as well that the maneuver progression is deliberately slower than other PrCs, which tend to grant new maneuvers at the same rate as most base classes.2: yeah, I know that, but you have to get used to spend (a good) part of the time without adamant courage, since 5-ft. stepping doesn't tend to cut it; 4: I think all levels should be equally valuable - after all, I know for sure you agree with me (you are a COer) in not finding anything wrong in x 3/y 5/z 4/a 7/b 1, so there's not so strong a reason for any particular level to be an explicit intentional breakpoint. Anyway, I think that if you consider it too strong, it's the easiest place to cut; but then, I'm not particularly worried with its power level.
Karzach 06-15-07, 04:48 PM	One area to explore to make it more interesting for warblades is to establish a minor overlap with Steely Resolve: have it grant Steely Resolve 10/15/20, but if you already have Steely Resolve, it merely increases its value by 5/10/15 instead. I'd suggest writing it that way, personally. It's a tad bit more awkward that way, but I think that brings the Warfender more in line with the Crusefender, with the notable exception of a few oddball quirks (like the granted manuever trick you just mentioned). Sorry, it just seemed odd that merely having levels in crusader seemed to make you better at being the DD than the warblade, without even taking into account Devoted Spirit. The only other thing I could think of that would help the Warfender would be a class feature that allowed the DD to apply his CON modifier to the battle clarity etc. etc. features of the Warblade. unfortunately, I have no idea how you'd justify it from a fluff standpoint, nor do I particularly like the idea of separating the melee class from his mental stats again. Or perhaps I'm just making a fuss about nothing.
AAB 06-15-07, 06:30 PM	nicely done. on first glance it looks overpowered, but then again i should totally forget about the original DD as a PrC worth taking at all. when i took time to actually read through the whole thing carefully (which took a while because of all the comments on this thing already) it seems pretty good. it's good enough where it's tempting to take it, but the prerequisites are tough enough to make you think twice (at first i thought the prereqs were too easy. don't know what i was thinking). overall i'd say great job. you've done dwarves everywhere a great service. this is actually what i had considered the ideal of a dwarven crusader to be from the get-go. i personally wouldn't bother making it any more warblade-friendly; i think the warblade is a more offensive class and it would be the odd character who took that route.
Tempest Stormwind 06-15-07, 06:37 PM	Thank you. At the same time, though, making it more warblade-friendly makes it more FIGHTER-friendly. The change to the Steely Resolve progression does that just fine. I'll implement that right after I finish crunching some numbers on it.
Aage 06-15-07, 07:29 PM	I just realised, adamant courage adds a bonus on all saving throws? I thought they were only vs. fear :embarrass That basically nets him with one good save and two über saves most of the time... I find that a bit over the top actually
Tempest Stormwind 06-15-07, 07:53 PM	It only applies if he's taken damage, and only until the end of his next turn. Note that if he's got damage reduction or a high AC (the latter of which he gets from this very ability on subsequent hits), he's not going to take as much damage as he needs to charge it up. Furthermore, it only applies against *damage*. You wait until he acts (drops his guard) and then hit him with a save-or-die and nothing's really changed (although do note he's got Steadfast Determination as a potential bonus feat and a good Will save.) That said, I did deliberately amp his saves somewhat. It bugged me that the old defender couldn't move (so he couldn't engage enemy tanks) AND couldn't defend against enemy mages; this guy gets a saving throw boost to account for that. (Remember 1e halflings? Yeah, sort of like that.) The next change I'm considering doing is altering Guardian so it doesn't apply to you. You can still split it up as you see fit between your adjacent foes, but it doesn't pump your AC just by standing near an ally.
Aage 06-15-07, 08:09 PM	(Remember 1e halflings? Yeah, sort of like that.) Sorry, haven't been around that long :P The next change I'm considering doing is altering Guardian so it doesn't apply to you. You can still split it up as you see fit between your adjacent foes, but it doesn't pump your AC just by standing near an ally. Good change I think... Otherwise you might get the feel that you are taking cover behind your allies..
Tempest Stormwind 06-16-07, 03:20 AM	The changes have been made. I also realized that the bonus feat list was lacking Combat Expertise, so I made a minor revision there. The more I think about it, the less I like Improved Stone Power as a feat. I've never liked the "we'll give you something, but you have to take a class-dependent feat if you really want it" approach, a feeling only reinforced by Complete Psionic having that scattered throughout it. Thus, I feel on some level it should be a clss feature. The logical place for it to show up in the class as a class feature is level 2, but that level's already rather sweet. I'm also surprised no one's commented on the *second* feat, although I can understand it being skipped (since it was written for the Deepstone Sentinel, not the defender).
Flamewarrior 06-16-07, 06:11 PM	You worry about the class' power, and think about adding a class ability? :) Anyway, I was gonna comment on Earth Fortification: usually, things called "fortification" have a very specific effect; so, maybe "Earth Bulwark"? Other than that, no real comment. Improved Stone Power: what about letting the feat to everyone, and capping it at half or whole BAB?
Aage 06-17-07, 03:09 AM	How about: Change the bonus feat progression to 1st, 5th, 9th Put phalanx fighting in the bonus feat list Grant improved stone power as a class feature at 3rd level Grant AoOs equal to con bonus while maintaining the stance at 7th level
heax 06-28-07, 11:12 PM	Dear Tempest Stormwind, I have checked with my DM, and he is allowing me to use this PrC in an upcoming game. I looked it over a few times, and made a few minor changes- most notably the removal of the bonus feats and Phalanx Fighting as a bonus feat. The way I see it, the classes which grant feats are those which are meant to be flavourfully specialized in different ways- ranged, tripper, AoO, skill monkey, twf, Power attacker, etc. This Dwarven Defender class replacement does one thing: survive. And I love that. But the DM found it a bit too much with the feats included. He suggested I replace all the bonus feats with a single ability at level 7, 8, or 9. I've been looking around, but can't find any specific ideas to fill. He's got the survivability of a hardcore crusader, the AC potential through the roof, and the Dauntless acting as a pseudo DR. What else would fit? Sincerely, A Humble Heax
Tempest Stormwind 06-28-07, 11:25 PM	I was actually considering dropping Adamant Courage in favor of an automatic Improved Stone Power, which would be removed as a feat. My initial playtests showed that even with the feats it's fine, but Adamant Courage made it a bit over-the-top (+6 bonus on saves was what did it, but the AC made it worse).
heax 06-28-07, 11:27 PM	To be honest, this class is going to be used in a high powered, heavily optimized BBEG gestalt to epic game. The removal of the feats was the stipulation the DM provided, but I will show him your concerns on Adamant Courage. I'll add in Improved Stone Power as a Bonus Feat at level 3. Thanks.
Aage 06-29-07, 12:54 PM	If adamant courage is removed, then the benefit of entering as a warblade is further reduced... Perhaps nerfing adamant rather than remove it...
Tempest Stormwind 07-07-07, 02:22 PM	If adamant courage is removed, then the benefit of entering as a warblade is further reduced... Perhaps nerfing adamant rather than remove it... Ahah! I think I've got it. Ditch Adamant Courage for Improved Stone Power. Mention that Dwarven Defender levels stack with any existing warblade levels for the purposes of Weapon Aptitude (i.e. warblade 10 / dwarven defender 10 counts as fighter 18 for purposes of fighter feats). Does NOT grant Weapon Aptitude on its own. Mechanical reasoning: provides a stacking benefit to warblades. Thematic reasoning: Dwarves favor Fighter anyway. It still favors crusaders more, but they always were the tougher of the two classes.
wanderer3791 07-07-07, 05:49 PM	Phenomenal work. I love the feel of the class. Quick question: By taking 2 levels of Deepwarden (Endurance feat is shared) I could also add CON bonus to AC, so do you see all the bonuses stacking since they are different names? If I read the Sublime Dwarven Defender correctly (I hope so), while in the Resolute Defender stance, I would add my CON and half my class level to AC regardless of damage taken. Throw in the pummeling my tank will be taking since I will probably grab the goad feat, and I will also gain an AC bonus thanks to Adamant Courage. Talk about dwarven goodness! I hope I read that right! Thanks for taking the time to share this with us.
Aage 07-07-07, 06:05 PM	Yeah, it seems you're right... the CON replaces dexterity bonus, the stance is dodge bonus and adamant is unnamed... Not however, that it seems tempest wishes to remove adamant..
Tempest Stormwind 07-07-07, 06:55 PM	Adamant Courage is resulting in problems with playtesting, so I'm considering removing it, swapping it for a class-feature version of Improved Stone Power. Since it'd only be available as a class feature, I was considering adding a small tweak to it: in addition to going beyond normal Stone Power's temp HP, allow you to use the regular Stone Power feat (up to its normal -5) with any attack form, regardless of discipline, provided you're standing on the ground. I'd need to playtest that with the Weapon Aptitude idea from before. By the way, if you're going all insane over high ACs, consider adding Deflective Armor, Shield Ward, and one level of Fist of the Forest. That's another +CON to AC (stacks with Deepwarden!), and your armor bonus and shield bonus apply to your touch AC. This is on top of what you noted earlier (half class level to AC, Deepwarden's Con replacing Dex to AC, and Guardian boosting nearby allies' AC) and any of the other things you didn't note (like all the little +1s and +2s from other feats, such as Shield Specialization, Phalanx Fighting, and Formation Expert). This guy doesn't die from physical attacks or direct damage, and rays and similar are hard to use against him. His biggest weak spot would be nondamaging area effects, really (either that or powerful grapplers). Balance-wise so far, it's come out ahead of where I'd like it; hence the (in-testing) removal of Adamant Courage. If it STILL comes out too strong, well, something else has to go (perhaps the Will save).
Aage 07-08-07, 09:14 AM	I like that Stone power idea of working with any attack, for defender's who focus heavily on their tradition... Personally, since defenders are supposed to work together, I find that a White Raven tradition could be quite nice to add...
Tempest Stormwind 08-01-07, 02:46 PM	Made some changes. Adamant Courage is gone, replaced with a slightly modified Improved Stone Power. I hope to rewrite this soon to be a bit clearer -- basically, you can use Stone Power on any melee attack type, and if that type would already have benefitted from Stone Power, you can extend the penalty (and commensurate bonus) a bit. Also, Tradition, if you meet the Iron Heart requirement, now allows defender levels to stack with warblade for weapon aptitude. I'm AFB right now, but I'm considering letting it also stack with regard to the Battle X abilities that are capped at warblade level. The class is still more appealing to crusaders, but I like it that way. I haven't considered a White Raven tradition, but that might be something to think about. White Raven is remarkably powerful in the right hands, though.
Thinblade 08-04-07, 01:30 AM	Just for my reference, could you post Adamant Courage separately, now that you've removed it? I respect your opinion that it's overpowered, but since one of my players wants to run the PrC in a rather high powered game, I'd like to compare the two. Thanks.
Tempest Stormwind 08-05-07, 12:41 PM	Just for my reference, could you post Adamant Courage separately, now that you've removed it? I respect your opinion that it's overpowered, but since one of my players wants to run the PrC in a rather high powered game, I'd like to compare the two. Thanks. It's in the developer notes, actually. They got it at level 2. In that version, Improved Stone Power was a feat.