Sword & Sorcery PrC? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Sword & Sorcery PrC? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Scarab83
03-09-08, 01:53 PM I'm creating a new character for an upcoming game and I've decided I want to try something like a Spellsword, but I was wondering if there were any other options better suited to sword and spell theme.

I've found the Eldritch Knight, the Abjurant Champion, and the Raumathari Battlemage, but they all seem sort of.. blah. Any other ideas?
Grod_The_Giant
03-09-08, 02:06 PM The Duskblade from the Player's Handbook Two is a sword-and-spell base class that works from level 1. They get slowly increasing ASF bypass abilities, lots of (low level) spells, and the ability to channel spells through their weapons. Is that the kind of thing you're looking for?
ciaran
03-09-08, 02:17 PM You could require the Still Spell feat and grant spontaneous uses of it, like 1 per day per class level.
Scarab83
03-10-08, 01:23 AM Sorry, I should have been more specific. This is a character I'm going to be playing, and we'll be starting at a fairly low level, however, I'd like to plan ahead for an appropriate PrC.

I've been looking through the books, and I found another similar PrC called Bladesinger, but it still doesn't seem all that interesting or fun to play. If worse comes to worse, I think I'll end up trying a Spellsword unless I find a better option before then.

Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
X0_Lt_0X
03-10-08, 01:32 AM Battle Sorcerer from Unearthed Arcana?
Jaxgaret
03-10-08, 01:33 AM The best gish builds almost invariably include levels in Abjurant Champion and a single level dip in Spellsword. Many include levels in Eldritch Knight at the back end as well.

I am going to re-mention the Duskblade, as it is a gish from level 1. It doesn't have the upper end power of more spellcaster-based gishes, though.

A good starter gish for a player new to D&D is a BattleSorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVari antBattleSorcerer)/AbjurantChampion. Qualify for and take levels in Abjurant Champion as soon as possible, and then PrC into whatever else you want.
Scarab83
03-10-08, 01:41 AM What is "gish"?

Also, I'm not all that big on power builds. It doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to be fun.

I'm reluctant to play a Duskblade, since the last 3 campaigns I've been in has had one, and I'm a little tired of them to be honest. :D
Jaxgaret
03-10-08, 01:45 AM What is "gish"?

A gish is exactly what you asked for in the OP - a Sword & Sorcery character, a fighter-mage.

Also, I'm not all that big on power builds. It doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to be fun.

Then definitely go with a Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVari antBattleSorcerer). It's simple, it's easy, it's still quite strong, and you get exactly what you want.

I'm reluctant to play a Duskblade, since the last 3 campaigns I've been in has had one, and I'm a little tired of them to be honest. :D

Fair enough :)
JulesCARV
03-10-08, 02:27 AM Gosh... you arcanists are so demanding with your gishes! WotC throws fifty arcane gishes at you, and you still can't find one you like, all the while psionics is muddling along the the entry-restricted illithid slayer and the flavor-restricted sanctified mind, and divine magic has yet to have a truly satisfactory gish besides those restricted to specific deities like the Ruby Knights Vindicator of Wee Jas or Ordained Champions of Hextor/Heironeous!

Okay, okay. Just kidding.

Anyway, the Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) from Five Nations is a possibility -- it's a bit like the Eldritch Knight, but a bit harder to get into, a bit more flavorful, and maybe a bit more powerful. Knights phantom are specifically supposed to be from the Kingdom of Aundair in Eberron; if you aren't in Eberron, the class might be unavailable, or have to be adapted. Many of their class features revolve around enhanced usage of the phantom steed spell -- they're mounted gishes, but they're sort of dragoons -- they use their phantom steeds more for transportation than battle.

The Jade Pheonix Mage is another possibility, from Tome of Battle. At any given time, there are only thirteen of them in the world. They advance a mix of arcane spellcasting and martial maneuvers -- neutral good alignment required, and they're basically supposed to be perpetually reincarnating souls destined to guard the world from evil.

The Fochlucan Lyrist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=2) offers full base attack bonus and full arcane spellcasting progression. Along with... erm... 6 + int skill points, full divine spellcasting progression, full bardic music progression, bardic knowledge, good will and reflex saves, and the ability to cast druid spells in light metal armor. It's quite a handful. However, it's unlikely that you'll be able to build a "gish" as conventionally conceived from such a class. It has extremely high entry prerequisites. (impossible before level 10/11 (you can meet the prerequisites at 10, and take your first level at 11, that is.)) Still, it's definitely something different.
serow_#R
03-10-08, 08:29 AM The Psychic Warrior is a base fighter-mage, you might to consider that.
It has the strengths (and still many of the weaknesses) of the fighter type, but with the added versatility of magic.
The_Shaman
03-10-08, 01:26 PM I think everythink with a medium+ BAB and a 9/10 or higher caster levels could be considered a gish - Sacred Exorcist from CDivine, Master of the Yuirwood from UEast, or Evereskan Tomb Guardian (PGtF) can certainly be useful in the right build.

Do we include Psi-gishes, by the way? The Sanctified Mind and the Slayer high BAB, good abilities, and lose only one level of manifesting.
Scarab83
03-10-08, 09:30 PM Thanks guys, you've given me a ton of ideas.

What makes the Abjurant Champion so great? Is it because it has a full progression attack bonus and full spell progression as well? The class features don't seem all that hot to me. I'd rather rely on full plate for my AC than abjuration spells.

Spellsword is still intriguing me, however I keep reading about how badly they suck on these boards. Could someone explain to me why?

:)
X0_Lt_0X
03-10-08, 09:41 PM Thanks guys, you've given me a ton of ideas.

What makes the Abjurant Champion so great? Is it because it has a full progression attack bonus and full spell progression as well? The class features don't seem all that hot to me. I'd rather rely on full plate for my AC than abjuration spells.

Spellsword is still intriguing me, however I keep reading about how badly they suck on these boards. Could someone explain to me why?

:)
Spellsword only removes a amount of Arcane Spellfalure rather than removeing it completly, and its not on par with the Abjurant Champion.
serow_#R
03-10-08, 10:02 PM Loss of 5 caster levels as well.
Scarab83
03-10-08, 11:35 PM The thing I like about Spellsword is the reduction to spell failure, and the ability to channel a spell through his weapon. Are there other ways to achieve those abilities?
Jaxgaret
03-10-08, 11:46 PM The thing I like about Spellsword is the reduction to spell failure, and the ability to channel a spell through his weapon. Are there other ways to achieve those abilities?

Battle Sorcerer gets no ASF when casting in Light Armor (which means Mithral Breastplate, or Mithral Full Plate with a single feat).

The only other class that gets the swordchanneling is the Duskblade. I thought you wanted to shy away from Duskblade-esque abilities?

Thanks guys, you've given me a ton of ideas.

You're welcome :)

What makes the Abjurant Champion so great? Is it because it has a full progression attack bonus and full spell progression as well? The class features don't seem all that hot to me. I'd rather rely on full plate for my AC than abjuration spells.

No loss of spellcasting levels + full BAB + d10 HD + neat class features + fairly moderate class requirements = Great class for a gish.

You can use the class features on Shield spells, too. And you get them as Swift actions for free. Sweet!

Spellsword is still intriguing me, however I keep reading about how badly they suck on these boards. Could someone explain to me why?

:)

They have half spell progression, which is terrible, and don't give you nearly enough back in return.

It's good for a 1- or 3- level dip, though.
The_Shaman
03-10-08, 11:52 PM The thing I like about Spellsword is the reduction to spell failure, and the ability to channel a spell through his weapon. Are there other ways to achieve those abilities?

The Raumathari Battlemage from UEast gets some channeling, but only 9/10 casting, medium BAB, and a very poor HD. Reduction of ACF can be done with Rage Mage, a paladin/wizard feat iirc, or just through getting a armor with lowered ASF. Mind you, 1 to 3 levels of Spellsword are considered fairly good - and with 3 levels, you can wear a mithral twilight full plate without any ASF.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Scarab83 03-09-08, 01:53 PM	I'm creating a new character for an upcoming game and I've decided I want to try something like a Spellsword, but I was wondering if there were any other options better suited to sword and spell theme. I've found the Eldritch Knight, the Abjurant Champion, and the Raumathari Battlemage, but they all seem sort of.. blah. Any other ideas?
Grod_The_Giant 03-09-08, 02:06 PM	The Duskblade from the Player's Handbook Two is a sword-and-spell base class that works from level 1. They get slowly increasing ASF bypass abilities, lots of (low level) spells, and the ability to channel spells through their weapons. Is that the kind of thing you're looking for?
ciaran 03-09-08, 02:17 PM	You could require the Still Spell feat and grant spontaneous uses of it, like 1 per day per class level.
Scarab83 03-10-08, 01:23 AM	Sorry, I should have been more specific. This is a character I'm going to be playing, and we'll be starting at a fairly low level, however, I'd like to plan ahead for an appropriate PrC. I've been looking through the books, and I found another similar PrC called Bladesinger, but it still doesn't seem all that interesting or fun to play. If worse comes to worse, I think I'll end up trying a Spellsword unless I find a better option before then. Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
X0_Lt_0X 03-10-08, 01:32 AM	Battle Sorcerer from Unearthed Arcana?
Jaxgaret 03-10-08, 01:33 AM	The best gish builds almost invariably include levels in Abjurant Champion and a single level dip in Spellsword. Many include levels in Eldritch Knight at the back end as well. I am going to re-mention the Duskblade, as it is a gish from level 1. It doesn't have the upper end power of more spellcaster-based gishes, though. A good starter gish for a player new to D&D is a BattleSorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVari antBattleSorcerer)/AbjurantChampion. Qualify for and take levels in Abjurant Champion as soon as possible, and then PrC into whatever else you want.
Scarab83 03-10-08, 01:41 AM	What is "gish"? Also, I'm not all that big on power builds. It doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to be fun. I'm reluctant to play a Duskblade, since the last 3 campaigns I've been in has had one, and I'm a little tired of them to be honest. :D
Jaxgaret 03-10-08, 01:45 AM	What is "gish"? A gish is exactly what you asked for in the OP - a Sword & Sorcery character, a fighter-mage. Also, I'm not all that big on power builds. It doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to be fun. Then definitely go with a Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVari antBattleSorcerer). It's simple, it's easy, it's still quite strong, and you get exactly what you want. I'm reluctant to play a Duskblade, since the last 3 campaigns I've been in has had one, and I'm a little tired of them to be honest. :D Fair enough :)
JulesCARV 03-10-08, 02:27 AM	Gosh... you arcanists are so demanding with your gishes! WotC throws fifty arcane gishes at you, and you still can't find one you like, all the while psionics is muddling along the the entry-restricted illithid slayer and the flavor-restricted sanctified mind, and divine magic has yet to have a truly satisfactory gish besides those restricted to specific deities like the Ruby Knights Vindicator of Wee Jas or Ordained Champions of Hextor/Heironeous! Okay, okay. Just kidding. Anyway, the Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) from Five Nations is a possibility -- it's a bit like the Eldritch Knight, but a bit harder to get into, a bit more flavorful, and maybe a bit more powerful. Knights phantom are specifically supposed to be from the Kingdom of Aundair in Eberron; if you aren't in Eberron, the class might be unavailable, or have to be adapted. Many of their class features revolve around enhanced usage of the phantom steed spell -- they're mounted gishes, but they're sort of dragoons -- they use their phantom steeds more for transportation than battle. The Jade Pheonix Mage is another possibility, from Tome of Battle. At any given time, there are only thirteen of them in the world. They advance a mix of arcane spellcasting and martial maneuvers -- neutral good alignment required, and they're basically supposed to be perpetually reincarnating souls destined to guard the world from evil. The Fochlucan Lyrist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=2) offers full base attack bonus and full arcane spellcasting progression. Along with... erm... 6 + int skill points, full divine spellcasting progression, full bardic music progression, bardic knowledge, good will and reflex saves, and the ability to cast druid spells in light metal armor. It's quite a handful. However, it's unlikely that you'll be able to build a "gish" as conventionally conceived from such a class. It has extremely high entry prerequisites. (impossible before level 10/11 (you can meet the prerequisites at 10, and take your first level at 11, that is.)) Still, it's definitely something different.
serow_#R 03-10-08, 08:29 AM	The Psychic Warrior is a base fighter-mage, you might to consider that. It has the strengths (and still many of the weaknesses) of the fighter type, but with the added versatility of magic.
The_Shaman 03-10-08, 01:26 PM	I think everythink with a medium+ BAB and a 9/10 or higher caster levels could be considered a gish - Sacred Exorcist from CDivine, Master of the Yuirwood from UEast, or Evereskan Tomb Guardian (PGtF) can certainly be useful in the right build. Do we include Psi-gishes, by the way? The Sanctified Mind and the Slayer high BAB, good abilities, and lose only one level of manifesting.
Scarab83 03-10-08, 09:30 PM	Thanks guys, you've given me a ton of ideas. What makes the Abjurant Champion so great? Is it because it has a full progression attack bonus and full spell progression as well? The class features don't seem all that hot to me. I'd rather rely on full plate for my AC than abjuration spells. Spellsword is still intriguing me, however I keep reading about how badly they suck on these boards. Could someone explain to me why? :)
X0_Lt_0X 03-10-08, 09:41 PM	Thanks guys, you've given me a ton of ideas. What makes the Abjurant Champion so great? Is it because it has a full progression attack bonus and full spell progression as well? The class features don't seem all that hot to me. I'd rather rely on full plate for my AC than abjuration spells. Spellsword is still intriguing me, however I keep reading about how badly they suck on these boards. Could someone explain to me why? :) Spellsword only removes a amount of Arcane Spellfalure rather than removeing it completly, and its not on par with the Abjurant Champion.
serow_#R 03-10-08, 10:02 PM	Loss of 5 caster levels as well.
Scarab83 03-10-08, 11:35 PM	The thing I like about Spellsword is the reduction to spell failure, and the ability to channel a spell through his weapon. Are there other ways to achieve those abilities?
Jaxgaret 03-10-08, 11:46 PM	The thing I like about Spellsword is the reduction to spell failure, and the ability to channel a spell through his weapon. Are there other ways to achieve those abilities? Battle Sorcerer gets no ASF when casting in Light Armor (which means Mithral Breastplate, or Mithral Full Plate with a single feat). The only other class that gets the swordchanneling is the Duskblade. I thought you wanted to shy away from Duskblade-esque abilities? Thanks guys, you've given me a ton of ideas. You're welcome :) What makes the Abjurant Champion so great? Is it because it has a full progression attack bonus and full spell progression as well? The class features don't seem all that hot to me. I'd rather rely on full plate for my AC than abjuration spells. No loss of spellcasting levels + full BAB + d10 HD + neat class features + fairly moderate class requirements = Great class for a gish. You can use the class features on Shield spells, too. And you get them as Swift actions for free. Sweet! Spellsword is still intriguing me, however I keep reading about how badly they suck on these boards. Could someone explain to me why? :) They have half spell progression, which is terrible, and don't give you nearly enough back in return. It's good for a 1- or 3- level dip, though.
The_Shaman 03-10-08, 11:52 PM	The thing I like about Spellsword is the reduction to spell failure, and the ability to channel a spell through his weapon. Are there other ways to achieve those abilities? The Raumathari Battlemage from UEast gets some channeling, but only 9/10 casting, medium BAB, and a very poor HD. Reduction of ACF can be done with Rage Mage, a paladin/wizard feat iirc, or just through getting a armor with lowered ASF. Mind you, 1 to 3 levels of Spellsword are considered fairly good - and with 3 levels, you can wear a mithral twilight full plate without any ASF.