Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nightshade 08-24-07, 04:06 PM	Please comment / critique [PEACH] this Prestige class. It's the first I've ever created. I was thinking about adding a special Dodge bonus to AC starting at 4th level and increasing to +3 or +4 by 10th but I thought it might be too much so instead I provided the Enhanced Mobility ability from the Duelist (except one can wear light armor). What does everyone think? Version b. The Agile Fighter: 10 level prestige class HD: d10 Alignment: Any Race: Any Requirements: BAB: +6 Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Improved Initiative, Spring Attack, and Two Weapon Fighting. Must be proficient in all Martial Weapons. Skills: Tumble 5 ranks, Jump 5 ranks, Balance 4 ranks Class Skills: Balance, Climb, Craft, Jump, Move Silently, Swim, and Tumble. Skill Points at each level 2 + Int mod Class Features: BAB: Full Saves: Fortitude Poor, Reflex Good, Will Poor lvl bab for ref will special 1 +1 +0 +2 +0 Fast Movement; Improved Reaction 2 +2 +0 +3 +0 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting 3 +3 +1 +3 +1 Fighter bonus feat 4 +4 +1 +4 +1 Uncanny Dodge, Enhanced Mobility 5 +5 +1 +4 +1 Greater Two Weapon Fighting 6 +6 +2 +5 +2 Evasion 7 +7 +2 +5 +2 Improved Uncanny Dodge 8 +8 +2 +6 +2 Two Weapon Pounce 9 +9 +3 +6 +3 Fighter bonus feat 10 +10 +3 +7 +3 Two Weapon Rend Weapons and Armor Proficiency An Agile Fighter gains no additional Weapon or Armor proficiencies. Fast Movement An Agile Fighter’s land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet, gained at level 1. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the Agile Fighter’s speed because of any load carried or armor worn. Improved Reaction At level 1, the Agile Fighter gains a +2 bonus to Initiative. This bonus stacks with Improved Initiative. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting At 2nd level, the Agile Fighter gains the Improved Two Weapon Fighting Feat, whether he qualifies for the prerequisites or not. Bonus Feats At 3rd level, an Agile Fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat. The Agile Fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 6th level and at 9th level. These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. An Agile Fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums. These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. An Agile Fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats. Uncanny Dodge Starting at 4th level, an Agile Fighter retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) regardless of being caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. (He still loses any Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.) If a character gains uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below). Greater Two Weapon Fighting At 5th level, the Agile Fighter gains the Greater Two Weapon Fighting feat, whether the character meets the prereq's or not. Evasion At 5th level and higher, an Agile Fighter can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the Agile Fighter is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless Agile Fighter does not gain the benefit of evasion. If a character gains Evasion from a second class, the character automatically gains Improved Evasion (see srd). Improved Uncanny Dodge At 7th level, an Agile Fighter can no longer be flanked. This defense denies rogues the ability to use flank attacks to sneak attack the Aghile Fighter. The exception to this defense is that a rogue at least four levels higher than the Agile Fighter can flank him (and thus sneak attack him). Fighter levels stack with Agile Fighter levels for determining if a rogue can flank him. If a character gains uncanny dodge (see above) from a second class the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge, and the levels from those classes stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character. Enhanced Mobility At 5th level, when wearing light armor and not using a shield, an Agile Fighter gains an additional +4 bonus to AC against attacks of opportunity caused when she moves out of a threatened square. This AC bonus stacks with the Mobility feat. Two Weapon Pounce At 8th level, the Agile fighter gains the Two Weapon Pounce feat found in PhB II. Two Weapon Rend At 10th level, the Agile Fighter gains the Two Weapon Rend feat found in PhB II. [EDIT: Since all the Casting classes get Prc's that improve their spellcasting levels as well as providing additional special abilities, I thought that maybe the answer to the fighter fix question are prestige classes that build upon the Fighter's increasing power - their feats. Thus, the prc gets bonus feats every third level as well as special abilities and preset feats.].
Nightshade 08-24-07, 07:11 PM	Ok, a friend recommended that I drop Intimidate from the class list and lower Fort saves to poor to balance it a bit. But then add Improved Reaction at level 1 from the Duelist prc to emphasize the mobility / dexterousness of the prc. Also, traded in Improved Initiative in the prereq's for Combat Reflexes. Just makes a bit more sense. Edited.:thinks:
Nightshade 08-27-07, 05:14 PM	:bump: 44 views over the weekend and no comments? Is it overpowered? Underpowered? Too boring? :duel:
Zax 08-28-07, 01:14 AM	Yeah look, I don't know. Doesn't seem too over-powered to me, especially because of the hefty requirements. I'd say add lightning reflexes instead of spring attack/shot on the run and add Evasion as a pre-req, then swap the Evasion class feature for Improved Evasion. Most PRCs require either multiclassing [or forcing really late entry if you don't (I don't count a 4 skill point requirement in a cross-class skill to be 'really late'), or crappy feats (ala martial weapon prof)], or diverge a reasonable amount from the base class - totem warrior, master of many forms, assassin, mindbender, the list goes on and on There are a few exceptions, like radiant servant of pelor etc. I just find this class a bit... yawnish I suppose. It's not broken, it just doesn't... fit right, you know?
Kuroi Kenshi 08-28-07, 01:17 AM	I think it's fine depending on your perspective. I agree 100% on the need for at least 1 martial PrC to give full bonus feat progression. This is is fine because there is a mage PrC that actually gives more bonus feats than you'd get from wizard levels while giving wonderful abilities at cost of giving up a school (Incantatrix), a cleric PrC that advances turn undead while not progressing domains (Sacred Exorcist), several cleric PrCs that grant one or more bonus domains, and a druid PrC that makes wildshape obscene (Planar Shepherd). And all these caster PrCs give up 0 caster levels. So yes this class is OK in comparison to those, because feats are still inferior to spells. It's also cool that this class is at least specialized towards light armor so you give up something (medium/heavy armor and maybe shields) for what you get. This class isn't as balanced per se vs most other martial PrCs. But most of them, even the "good" ones, are lacking compared to caster PrCs. Still this class doesn't count towards your "Fighter" level for determining whether you qualify for stuff like weapon supremacy, so that's pretty much the only thing that would make a Fighter stay a Fighter rather than go Agile Fighter. So that's a good thing for balance sake I guess. So, onto the criticism. If anything I think that the class could do without grabbing all its features from other classes and have features of its own. Furthermore such features should be the kind of things you'd get at the appropriate character level from a PrC. Let me illustrate: A Monk2/Fighter 4/Agile Fighter 7 is a 13th level character...and gets Improved Uncanny Dodge, something a Rogue gets at 8 or a Barbarian gets at level 5. At level 9 it gets a Duelist ability which I don't honestly care to look up the level of because at level 15 your special ability is +4 to AC vs. AoOs, sometimes, when you should be easily making Tumble checks to not draw AoOs for movement in the first place! Tumble is a class skill for this PrC, after all, and it uses light armor. A Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10 is doing insane things with metamagic at that point, or a Wizard 5/PrC 3/IotSV 7 is frustratingly hard to attack. Similar goes for a caster in any of its respective great PrCs. So you have to look at what the character is getting compared to other characters at the same character level. If you want to make this PrC make martial characters closer to being on par with casters at how good they get at their role in the party, I think the abilities could do something unique. At least for the abilities later in the class. An idea I had while writing this was to be able to take progressively greater immediate actions (at no cost to your normal actions for the round) once per encounter, once per round. So you start with being able to do an additional immediate move action at like 3, then go to standard at 7, and then to a full round action at level 10 in the PrC. If you think 1 full round action + 1 immediate full round action per encounter is broken, remember that your character level will be at least 16 by then! Next level wizards are timestopping, druids are shapechanging, and clerics are doing both and more if they have the right domains. And also remember that the character will still have lots of issues that only magical items can address. But that's just one angle with a non-magical flavor. You could also do stuff with making feints take lesser actions too, like the Invisible Blade PrC. You could even add superhuman speed-related stuff from the Swiftblade PrC if you wanted instead. It has some nice defensive and mobility-related features that could fit this if you wanted. It becomes easier to balance martial characters vs casters if you account for magic in some way innately benefiting martial characters as they go up in levels. That way you aren't letting your perceptions about RL physics hold back martial characters while you make an exception for casters just because they use "magic" in a fantasy setting where magic pervades everything anyway. So I hope this helps.
Nightshade 08-28-07, 04:45 PM	Take 2! The above Prc has been altered based upon recommendations to The Agile Two-Weapon Fighter. Please PEACH. Thx.
zioth 08-28-07, 07:42 PM	This class gets seven bonus feats in ten levels, plus a whole bunch of really useful abilities. In other words, ten levels of this are far better than ten levels of fighter. If you built this class to fix the underpowered nature of the fighter, I understand. When compared to the fighter, however, it's quite overpowered. My second complaint is that this class is accessible at level 6 to a fighter, but not until level 10 for anyone else (because of the huge number of feats required). That might make it all but useless to non-fighters, since anyone specializing in two-weapon fighting will have improved/greater before this PrC gives them away for free.
Nightshade 08-28-07, 11:20 PM	double post
Nightshade 08-30-07, 12:29 PM	I went into this thinking that I would create a fighter prc that would keep the fighter's feat progression (as a caster keeps his casting progression) but also give him some special abilities in the off levels to "try" to increase a fighter's power relative to the other mega classes, such as Druid, Wizard, and Cleric. Frankly, it's really hard to come up with the right Special Abilities without already having a "Feat Build" in mind that the Fighter would improve in the class. Thus, while my original idea was a good one, it doesn't work out in practice. So, here's an Agile Fighter with a feat build in mind - the Agile Two Weapon Fighter. It is based off of the aspects of the Tempest and Dervish classes that I liked but it really focuses on the two weapon feat tree, which was enlarged by the PhB II. Since Complete Adventurer was written before PhB II, Tempest lost a lot of it's verve since it doesn't get the new feats and would remove fighter bonus feats, making it more difficult for the pc to get those PhB II feats. Version C. The Agile Two Weapon Fighter: 10 level prestige class HD: d10 Alignment: Any Race: Any Requirements: BAB: +6 Feats: Proficiency in all Martial Weapons; Dodge, Mobility, Improved Initiative, Spring Attack, Two Weapon Fighting, and Improved Two Weapon Fighting. Skills: Tumble 5 ranks, Jump 5 ranks, Balance 4 ranks Class Skills: Balance, Climb, Craft, Jump, Sleight of Hand, Swim, and Tumble. Skill Points at each level 2 + Int mod Class Features: BAB: Full Saves: Fortitude Poor, Reflex Good, Will Poor lvl bab for ref will special 1 +1 +0 +2 +0 Fast Movement; Improved Reaction 2 +2 +0 +3 +0 Ambidexterity, Uncanny Dodge 3 +3 +1 +3 +1 Two Weapon Defense, Acrobatic Charge 4 +4 +1 +4 +1 Two Weapon Versatility 5 +5 +1 +4 +1 Greater Two Weapon Fighting 6 +6/1 +2 +5 +2 Ambidexterity, Improved Uncanny Dodge 7 +7/2 +2 +5 +2 Improved Two Weapon Defense 8 +8/3 +2 +6 +2 Two Weapon Pounce 9 +9/4 +3 +6 +3 Two Weapon Spring Attack 10 +10/5 +3 +7 +3 Two Weapon Rend Armor and Weapon Proficiencies: The Agile Two Weapon Fighter does not gain any additional Weapon or Armor Proficiencies. Fast Movement An Agile Fighter’s land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet, gained at level 1. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the Agile Fighter’s speed because of any load carried or armor worn. Improved Reaction At level 1, the Agile Fighter gains a +2 bonus to Initiative. This bonus stacks with Improved Initiative. Ambidexterity At 2nd level, the Agile Two Weapon fighter reduces the penalty to attack using Two Weapon Fighting by 1. (i.e. -4/-4 becomes -3/-3 and -2/-2 for light off-hand weapons becomes -1/-1). At 6th level, the Agile Two Weapon Fighter reduces the penalty to attack with Two Weapon Fighting by a second point. (i.e. -4/-4 becomes -2/-2 and -2/-2 for light off-hand weapons becomes 0/0). Uncanny Dodge Starting at 2nd level, an Agile Fighter retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) regardless of being caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. (He still loses any Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.) If a character gains uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below). Two Weapon Defense At 3rd level, the Agile Two Weapon Fighter gains the Two Weapon Defence feat. Acrobatic Charge Greater Two Weapon Fighting At 5th level, the Agile Fighter gains the Greater Two Weapon Fighting feat, whether the character meets the prereq's or not. Improved Uncanny Dodge At 6th level, an Agile Fighter can no longer be flanked. This defense denies rogues the ability to use flank attacks to sneak attack the Aghile Fighter. The exception to this defense is that a rogue at least four levels higher than the Agile Fighter can flank him (and thus sneak attack him). Fighter levels stack with Agile Fighter levels for determining if a rogue can flank him. If a character gains uncanny dodge (see above) from a second class the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge, and the levels from those classes stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character. Improved Two Weapon Defence At 7th level, the Agile Two Weapon Fighter gains the Improved Two Weapon Defence feat, whether the pc satisfies the requirements or not. Two Weapon Pounce At 8th level, the Agile fighter gains the Two Weapon Pounce feat found in PhB II. Two Weapon Spring Attack Two Weapon Rend At 10th level, the Agile Fighter gains the Two Weapon Rend feat found in PhB II. You get the 5 fighter feats in 10 levels but they are all part of the Two weapon fighting tree. Now, I know that people are going to say that Two Weapon Defense sucks, especially in comparison to Improved Buckler Defense. It's true, but I thought that it would balance the class a bit and people might then actually use those two feats, since no one I know actually does. Plus, if they are "weak" feats then it would be more difficult to claim that this prc is overpowered. You're welcome to P.E.A.C.H.