The Archfighter [Archive] - Wizards Community

The Archfighter [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
arderkrag
08-12-07, 12:30 AM No fluff in this thread, just class info.

The Archfighter
Prereq:
BAB +7
Feats :at least 5 fighter bonus feats, including weapon focus in at least 2 weapons.

Table 1-1: The Archfighter (HD: D10)

LV BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1 +1 +2 +0 +0 Warcraft, Dedication
2 +2 +3 +0 +0 Warcraft, Bonus Feat
3 +3 +3 +1 +1 Warcraft
4 +4 +4 +1 +1 Warcraft, Bonus Feat
5 +5 +4 +1 +1 Warcraft

Warcrafts: at each level, an Archfighter gains a Warcraft ability chosen from the list below. Once a choice is made, it cannot be changed.
Attack Power: +1 to attacks, may only be taken 3 times max.
Improvised Damage Type: For the purposes of overcoming damage reduction only, an archfighter can shift the type of damage his weapon deals as a free action.
Mastery of (Blades, Maces, or Needles): For each weapon damage type (Slashing, Bludgeoning, or Piercing respectively) all weapons wielded deal damage as though one size category larger.
Manuever Focus (Imp. Bull Rush, Imp. Trip, or Imp. Grapple): +6 to one of these maneuvers for which the archfighter already has the listed feat.
Sweeping Blows: The archfighter, when using a two-handed weapon, may affect the initial target of his attack and the square immediately to the right or left of his target. The same attack roll is used for both squares.
Weak Spots: Choose a single weapon which you have the following feats dedicated to - Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Improved Critical - and the proper Mastery of (x) ability listed above. With that weapon you bypass all breakable damage reduction. This ability may only ever be gained for a single weapon.

Dedication: Once in this prestige class, the character must finish all 5 levels before gaining any levels in another prestige class.

Bonus Feat: Must be drawn from fighter bonus feat list.
IdleAltruism
08-12-07, 01:28 PM LV BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1 +1 +2 +0 +0 Warcraft, Dedication
2 +2 +3 +0 +0 Warcraft, Bonus Feat
3 +3 +3 +1 +1 Warcraft
4 +4 +4 +1 +1 Warcraft, Bonus Feat
5 +5 +4 +1 +1 Warcraft

You kind of messed this up but I understand its good bab good fort bad ref bad will.

Attack Power: +1 to attacks, may only be taken 3 times max.

This ability is unclear, is it +1 to hit?

Improvised Damage Type: For the purposes of overcoming damage reduction only, an archfighter can shift the type of damage his weapon deals as a free action.

This ability really doesn't help that much.

Mastery of (Blades, Maces, or Needles): For each weapon damage type (Slashing, Bludgeoning, or Piercing respectively) all weapons wielded deal damage as though one size category larger.

This ability doesn't really make sense, because you train with a weapon type it becomes bigger? You probably want to give a straight up damage bonus or some other kind of bonus.

Manuever Focus (Imp. Bull Rush, Imp. Trip, or Imp. Grapple): +6 to one of these maneuvers for which the archfighter already has the listed feat.

This is abusable, I think the +6 is just to much.

Sweeping Blows: The archfighter, when using a two-handed weapon, may affect the initial target of his attack and the square immediately to the right or left of his target. The same attack roll is used for both squares.

This ability wasn't written very well. Can he use it for every attack? If he can use it for every attack this ability is way to powerful. If he can use it like a standard action or something like that its way to weak.

Weak Spots: Choose a single weapon which you have the following feats dedicated to - Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Improved Critical - and the proper Mastery of (x) ability listed above. With that weapon you bypass all breakable damage reduction. This ability may only ever be gained for a single weapon.

This ability is so meh, yet a little to powerful and a little confusing. Does this ability only work for one weapon or weapon type? I would change this to a general ability and make the fighter lower DR of an opponent with some kind of special attack.

Dedication: Once in this prestige class, the character must finish all 5 levels before gaining any levels in another prestige class.

This is pretty bad, I'd remove this.

Bonus Feat: Must be drawn from fighter bonus feat list.

I'd make levels into this PrC stack with fighter levels for fighter feats.

Basically this is making a fighter even more specialized....
The fighter really doesn't need to be more specialized they need to be versatile.
StevenO
08-12-07, 08:51 PM Why not just simplify your Prereq. to "Fighter 8" as the +7 BAB is worthless as a gatekeeper and I take "bonus figher feats" to mean just that. If you just mean "five feats that are on the list of fighter feats" then it may become relevant.

I think this too strong. Even assuming the Ftr8 entry requirement there is no real cost to enter the PrC. The one restriction, "Dedication", has no precident unless you count racial classes which are a completely different thing.

Now how does this compare to five levels in figher? "Wow, I get five special abilities at no cost what so ever." Ok, you may have weapon focus in a second weapon but that isn't much. You may say that is true of any of the spellcasting PrC that have full progressions but most of them make some sacrifices to get them. Now to look at your abilites.

Attack Power: There is an epic feat that does this exact thing.
Improvised Damage Type: Typically weapons already count as all their damage types with no action required to change modes so is this effectively giving weapons damage type S/P/B?
Master of X: A very similiar feat exsists that grants straight bonus to damage instead.
Maneuver Focus: Is the +6 the net or on top of the bonuses the feats already provide? Should add Sunder and Disarm to the list.
Sweeping Blows: Free cleave without the hassle?
Weak Spots: I believe one of the Completes has a feat which allow the user to avoid DR. As named it doesn't make much sense either.
arderkrag
08-14-07, 11:14 AM 1. The "attack bonus" is only on attack rolls.

2. The class is FAR from over powered.

3. Fighters are fine like they are. They don't need to be less focused on dealing damage - this class just changes some things about them.

4. If you don't like it, hey - don't use it. It works fine in my playtests of it.
IdleAltruism
08-14-07, 01:31 PM Play testing is one thing, not every group plays the same. Since you designed the class it might be better in your game then in others.

Saying it worked fine in your game doesn't prove anything. What kind of circumstances was it against? What levels did you test it at? How long did you test it? Did you compare it to other classes with similar abilities at different levels?

Alot must be done to really effectively understand how new classes can effect the game. When you post a class here someone might want to play it and when making a class its your responsibility to make an attempt to balance it.

From what I can see this class has a lot of potential to be abused. I would work more on scaling the abilities with fighter types (make it an appealing choice for fighters but not a class that every fighter would be nutts not to go in)
StevenO
08-14-07, 08:23 PM ...
From what I can see this class has a lot of potential to be abused. I would work more on scaling the abilities with fighter types (make it an appealing choice for fighters but not a class that every fighter would be nutts not to go in)

The most basic definition of a broken class.

On arderkrag's point "3. Fighters are fine like they are. They don't need to be less focused on dealing damage - this class just changes some things about them." This class, as presented, really changes NOTHING about the fighter but instead adds five levels of ADDITIONAL abilities.

On point 4, I don't like it and wouldn't use it but do feel I should comment on it as to why. Odds are that your "playtesting" is biased in both the method and interpertation of the results. That is your "playtest" is, atleast unconsiously, made to make the class look fine and you may overlook the little thing that still say it isn't.
arderkrag
08-15-07, 03:41 PM I don't see where it could be abused. Period. Like I said, as with any class, if you don't like it - don't use it.

And +6 to a maneuver - how could that possibly be abused? It's meant to give you a stepping stone to use that manuever consistently in combat. That isn't "abuse", that's "playing smart".

And the word "broken" needs to be banned from the forums.
IdleAltruism
08-15-07, 05:56 PM You don't seem to get our point. Instead of rejecting our opinions why not ask us what we see?

Personally I don't like it, it doesn't really add any flavor to things. I wouldn't play it but I know people who might and for those people I would want to make it as balanced as possible.

That isn't "abuse", that's "playing smart"

The ability is to good not to take, its not the smart choice its the obvious one. You would be stupid not to take it. Which is why its to powerful. And yes it is abuse if the class itself is not balanced.

The maneuver focus gives a huge bonus to a given special attack action. It actually counts you as a size and a half bigger for these. Early game this means you can't fail, these combos were powerful to begin with and now you make them unstoppable. At 8th level, you can get the tripping maneuver focus and get above a 15+ trip, thats a greater bonus then alot of the CR 8 monsters. And everything that isn't large size or bigger is pretty much going to get tripped regardless.

The sweeping blow looks ridiculous if it does what it sounds like it does. How does it work with a spike chain? Could you make a full attack against 3 targets? If so this ability is way to much.

And weak spot looks just a tad bit much. DR has a purpose and just throwing it out the window for monsters is probably not a good idea. I know theres things like warblades maneuvers that can do it but they can't full attack and do it. If you made the ability more like that it would be suitable.

Well I hope this helps you to understand why I think the class needs a bit of tweaking still.
Waldo_di
08-15-07, 11:13 PM I don't see where it could be abused. Period. Like I said, as with any class, if you don't like it - don't use it.

And +6 to a maneuver - how could that possibly be abused? It's meant to give you a stepping stone to use that manuever consistently in combat. That isn't "abuse", that's "playing smart".

And the word "broken" needs to be banned from the forums.

The word broken should be used less often. But, this class is super broken. How can you not see this? Same fighter Feat Progression with amazing special abilities better than feats. This my good sir is the supreme defention of Broken. The only thing more broke than this character is my spelling and Grammar. you've got to tone this bad boy down to 3 toned down diffrent war craft with no bonus feats and scrap dedication.
natzero
08-16-07, 10:02 AM you could say:

Manyshot
[General, Fighter]
(PH p97)
Dexterity 17
Base Attack Bonus +6
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot
Ranger 6th
As part of a Standard Action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30’. You make a single
attack roll with a –4 penalty. If it hits, then the opponent takes the damage from both arrows, but only
takes “precision based” damage once (this includes Sneak Attack, Ranger Favored Enemy, Critical hits,
etc.). Damage Reduction applies to each arrow separately.
If your Base Attack Bonus is +11 or higher, you may shoot 3 arrows at once at a penalty of –6.
If your Base Attack Bonus is +16 or higher, you may shoot 4 arrows at once at a penalty of –8.

ok Sweeping Strikes:

As a standard action you can make an attack roll against two enemies to whom you are adjacent. (does not count against flanking enemies, but only to those whom you can see and are in squares you threaten)
Benefit: You make one attack roll at a -4 penalty, effective against both creatures. This attack does not fail entirely if the attack roll misses against one enemy, you just fail to deal damage to that enemy. If the attack is successful you deal damage normally to both enemies.
Special: Precision damage (skirmish,sudden strike, sneak attack) only effects the first enemy struck. which is decided before the roll. Attack bonuses such as true strike, smite, and power attack can effect both enemies struck as this is only one attack roll.

ok guys what do you think of this rewrite?
hell it may make a nice normal fighter feat :)
as you can see i based is on the many shot feat.
IdleAltruism
08-16-07, 01:30 PM That would be alot more balanced compared to the current version.

Actually that would be a decent fighter feat, the only problem I see is we already have a feat thats kind of like that, whirlwind attack. I know its a full round action but essentially its doing the same.

How would that work with a spike chain?
natzero
08-16-07, 03:37 PM well i posted a feat version of this ability on feats threads.

feel free to see more formal version of it.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=907000
imakuni67
08-18-07, 12:59 PM I don't really think it makes sense. I know you are trying to emulate the Archmage, but the Archmage has a certain prestige were a fighter is just a fighter and when he gets to 15+ levels he already is looked highly upon. First I would say lose the bonus feats for one. Also the abilities are too powerful, especially the weapon size one. One thing you could add is abilities you can normally only get from PRCs, such as Supreme Cleave or Superior Two Weapon Fighting. Here are some other abilites.

* Damage reduction 1/-.
* You may quick draw any weapon you have weapon focus in.
* You get +4 bonus to avoid being disarmed.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
arderkrag 08-12-07, 12:30 AM	No fluff in this thread, just class info. The Archfighter Prereq: BAB +7 Feats :at least 5 fighter bonus feats, including weapon focus in at least 2 weapons. Table 1-1: The Archfighter (HD: D10) LV BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1 +1 +2 +0 +0 Warcraft, Dedication 2 +2 +3 +0 +0 Warcraft, Bonus Feat 3 +3 +3 +1 +1 Warcraft 4 +4 +4 +1 +1 Warcraft, Bonus Feat 5 +5 +4 +1 +1 Warcraft Warcrafts: at each level, an Archfighter gains a Warcraft ability chosen from the list below. Once a choice is made, it cannot be changed. Attack Power: +1 to attacks, may only be taken 3 times max. Improvised Damage Type: For the purposes of overcoming damage reduction only, an archfighter can shift the type of damage his weapon deals as a free action. Mastery of (Blades, Maces, or Needles): For each weapon damage type (Slashing, Bludgeoning, or Piercing respectively) all weapons wielded deal damage as though one size category larger. Manuever Focus (Imp. Bull Rush, Imp. Trip, or Imp. Grapple): +6 to one of these maneuvers for which the archfighter already has the listed feat. Sweeping Blows: The archfighter, when using a two-handed weapon, may affect the initial target of his attack and the square immediately to the right or left of his target. The same attack roll is used for both squares. Weak Spots: Choose a single weapon which you have the following feats dedicated to - Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Improved Critical - and the proper Mastery of (x) ability listed above. With that weapon you bypass all breakable damage reduction. This ability may only ever be gained for a single weapon. Dedication: Once in this prestige class, the character must finish all 5 levels before gaining any levels in another prestige class. Bonus Feat: Must be drawn from fighter bonus feat list.
IdleAltruism 08-12-07, 01:28 PM	LV BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1 +1 +2 +0 +0 Warcraft, Dedication 2 +2 +3 +0 +0 Warcraft, Bonus Feat 3 +3 +3 +1 +1 Warcraft 4 +4 +4 +1 +1 Warcraft, Bonus Feat 5 +5 +4 +1 +1 Warcraft You kind of messed this up but I understand its good bab good fort bad ref bad will. Attack Power: +1 to attacks, may only be taken 3 times max. This ability is unclear, is it +1 to hit? Improvised Damage Type: For the purposes of overcoming damage reduction only, an archfighter can shift the type of damage his weapon deals as a free action. This ability really doesn't help that much. Mastery of (Blades, Maces, or Needles): For each weapon damage type (Slashing, Bludgeoning, or Piercing respectively) all weapons wielded deal damage as though one size category larger. This ability doesn't really make sense, because you train with a weapon type it becomes bigger? You probably want to give a straight up damage bonus or some other kind of bonus. Manuever Focus (Imp. Bull Rush, Imp. Trip, or Imp. Grapple): +6 to one of these maneuvers for which the archfighter already has the listed feat. This is abusable, I think the +6 is just to much. Sweeping Blows: The archfighter, when using a two-handed weapon, may affect the initial target of his attack and the square immediately to the right or left of his target. The same attack roll is used for both squares. This ability wasn't written very well. Can he use it for every attack? If he can use it for every attack this ability is way to powerful. If he can use it like a standard action or something like that its way to weak. Weak Spots: Choose a single weapon which you have the following feats dedicated to - Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Improved Critical - and the proper Mastery of (x) ability listed above. With that weapon you bypass all breakable damage reduction. This ability may only ever be gained for a single weapon. This ability is so meh, yet a little to powerful and a little confusing. Does this ability only work for one weapon or weapon type? I would change this to a general ability and make the fighter lower DR of an opponent with some kind of special attack. Dedication: Once in this prestige class, the character must finish all 5 levels before gaining any levels in another prestige class. This is pretty bad, I'd remove this. Bonus Feat: Must be drawn from fighter bonus feat list. I'd make levels into this PrC stack with fighter levels for fighter feats. Basically this is making a fighter even more specialized.... The fighter really doesn't need to be more specialized they need to be versatile.
StevenO 08-12-07, 08:51 PM	Why not just simplify your Prereq. to "Fighter 8" as the +7 BAB is worthless as a gatekeeper and I take "bonus figher feats" to mean just that. If you just mean "five feats that are on the list of fighter feats" then it may become relevant. I think this too strong. Even assuming the Ftr8 entry requirement there is no real cost to enter the PrC. The one restriction, "Dedication", has no precident unless you count racial classes which are a completely different thing. Now how does this compare to five levels in figher? "Wow, I get five special abilities at no cost what so ever." Ok, you may have weapon focus in a second weapon but that isn't much. You may say that is true of any of the spellcasting PrC that have full progressions but most of them make some sacrifices to get them. Now to look at your abilites. Attack Power: There is an epic feat that does this exact thing. Improvised Damage Type: Typically weapons already count as all their damage types with no action required to change modes so is this effectively giving weapons damage type S/P/B? Master of X: A very similiar feat exsists that grants straight bonus to damage instead. Maneuver Focus: Is the +6 the net or on top of the bonuses the feats already provide? Should add Sunder and Disarm to the list. Sweeping Blows: Free cleave without the hassle? Weak Spots: I believe one of the Completes has a feat which allow the user to avoid DR. As named it doesn't make much sense either.
arderkrag 08-14-07, 11:14 AM	1. The "attack bonus" is only on attack rolls. 2. The class is FAR from over powered. 3. Fighters are fine like they are. They don't need to be less focused on dealing damage - this class just changes some things about them. 4. If you don't like it, hey - don't use it. It works fine in my playtests of it.
IdleAltruism 08-14-07, 01:31 PM	Play testing is one thing, not every group plays the same. Since you designed the class it might be better in your game then in others. Saying it worked fine in your game doesn't prove anything. What kind of circumstances was it against? What levels did you test it at? How long did you test it? Did you compare it to other classes with similar abilities at different levels? Alot must be done to really effectively understand how new classes can effect the game. When you post a class here someone might want to play it and when making a class its your responsibility to make an attempt to balance it. From what I can see this class has a lot of potential to be abused. I would work more on scaling the abilities with fighter types (make it an appealing choice for fighters but not a class that every fighter would be nutts not to go in)
StevenO 08-14-07, 08:23 PM	... From what I can see this class has a lot of potential to be abused. I would work more on scaling the abilities with fighter types (make it an appealing choice for fighters but not a class that every fighter would be nutts not to go in) The most basic definition of a broken class. On arderkrag's point "3. Fighters are fine like they are. They don't need to be less focused on dealing damage - this class just changes some things about them." This class, as presented, really changes NOTHING about the fighter but instead adds five levels of ADDITIONAL abilities. On point 4, I don't like it and wouldn't use it but do feel I should comment on it as to why. Odds are that your "playtesting" is biased in both the method and interpertation of the results. That is your "playtest" is, atleast unconsiously, made to make the class look fine and you may overlook the little thing that still say it isn't.
arderkrag 08-15-07, 03:41 PM	I don't see where it could be abused. Period. Like I said, as with any class, if you don't like it - don't use it. And +6 to a maneuver - how could that possibly be abused? It's meant to give you a stepping stone to use that manuever consistently in combat. That isn't "abuse", that's "playing smart". And the word "broken" needs to be banned from the forums.
IdleAltruism 08-15-07, 05:56 PM	You don't seem to get our point. Instead of rejecting our opinions why not ask us what we see? Personally I don't like it, it doesn't really add any flavor to things. I wouldn't play it but I know people who might and for those people I would want to make it as balanced as possible. That isn't "abuse", that's "playing smart" The ability is to good not to take, its not the smart choice its the obvious one. You would be stupid not to take it. Which is why its to powerful. And yes it is abuse if the class itself is not balanced. The maneuver focus gives a huge bonus to a given special attack action. It actually counts you as a size and a half bigger for these. Early game this means you can't fail, these combos were powerful to begin with and now you make them unstoppable. At 8th level, you can get the tripping maneuver focus and get above a 15+ trip, thats a greater bonus then alot of the CR 8 monsters. And everything that isn't large size or bigger is pretty much going to get tripped regardless. The sweeping blow looks ridiculous if it does what it sounds like it does. How does it work with a spike chain? Could you make a full attack against 3 targets? If so this ability is way to much. And weak spot looks just a tad bit much. DR has a purpose and just throwing it out the window for monsters is probably not a good idea. I know theres things like warblades maneuvers that can do it but they can't full attack and do it. If you made the ability more like that it would be suitable. Well I hope this helps you to understand why I think the class needs a bit of tweaking still.
Waldo_di 08-15-07, 11:13 PM	I don't see where it could be abused. Period. Like I said, as with any class, if you don't like it - don't use it. And +6 to a maneuver - how could that possibly be abused? It's meant to give you a stepping stone to use that manuever consistently in combat. That isn't "abuse", that's "playing smart". And the word "broken" needs to be banned from the forums. The word broken should be used less often. But, this class is super broken. How can you not see this? Same fighter Feat Progression with amazing special abilities better than feats. This my good sir is the supreme defention of Broken. The only thing more broke than this character is my spelling and Grammar. you've got to tone this bad boy down to 3 toned down diffrent war craft with no bonus feats and scrap dedication.
natzero 08-16-07, 10:02 AM	you could say: Manyshot [General, Fighter] (PH p97) Dexterity 17 Base Attack Bonus +6 Point Blank Shot Rapid Shot Ranger 6th As part of a Standard Action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30’. You make a single attack roll with a –4 penalty. If it hits, then the opponent takes the damage from both arrows, but only takes “precision based” damage once (this includes Sneak Attack, Ranger Favored Enemy, Critical hits, etc.). Damage Reduction applies to each arrow separately. If your Base Attack Bonus is +11 or higher, you may shoot 3 arrows at once at a penalty of –6. If your Base Attack Bonus is +16 or higher, you may shoot 4 arrows at once at a penalty of –8. ok Sweeping Strikes: As a standard action you can make an attack roll against two enemies to whom you are adjacent. (does not count against flanking enemies, but only to those whom you can see and are in squares you threaten) Benefit: You make one attack roll at a -4 penalty, effective against both creatures. This attack does not fail entirely if the attack roll misses against one enemy, you just fail to deal damage to that enemy. If the attack is successful you deal damage normally to both enemies. Special: Precision damage (skirmish,sudden strike, sneak attack) only effects the first enemy struck. which is decided before the roll. Attack bonuses such as true strike, smite, and power attack can effect both enemies struck as this is only one attack roll. ok guys what do you think of this rewrite? hell it may make a nice normal fighter feat :) as you can see i based is on the many shot feat.
IdleAltruism 08-16-07, 01:30 PM	That would be alot more balanced compared to the current version. Actually that would be a decent fighter feat, the only problem I see is we already have a feat thats kind of like that, whirlwind attack. I know its a full round action but essentially its doing the same. How would that work with a spike chain?
natzero 08-16-07, 03:37 PM	well i posted a feat version of this ability on feats threads. feel free to see more formal version of it. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=907000
imakuni67 08-18-07, 12:59 PM	I don't really think it makes sense. I know you are trying to emulate the Archmage, but the Archmage has a certain prestige were a fighter is just a fighter and when he gets to 15+ levels he already is looked highly upon. First I would say lose the bonus feats for one. Also the abilities are too powerful, especially the weapon size one. One thing you could add is abilities you can normally only get from PRCs, such as Supreme Cleave or Superior Two Weapon Fighting. Here are some other abilites. * Damage reduction 1/-. * You may quick draw any weapon you have weapon focus in. * You get +4 bonus to avoid being disarmed.