The Assassin PrC [Archive] - Wizards Community

The Assassin PrC [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tigron321
01-25-08, 10:58 PM Do you absolutely -HAVE- to be evil for this? I don't see why you can't kill evil creatures, or evil people to get into this PrC... Does anyone have any good PrC's for a ninja/rouge combo?
DonThelonious
01-26-08, 02:43 AM Here is an alternate version of the Assassin, called the Avenger (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a). It is official WoTC material, so you need not worry about it being unbalanced (as far as WoTC stuff goes:rolleyes:).

Hope this helps:D.
Divisionbyzer0
01-26-08, 03:16 AM I think a neutral character could be an assassin provided he doesn't always get his contracts from evil organizations. A good one could be too provided he always works for good contractors.

I guess the idea of making an income by killing people is evil, but then all soldiers should be evil too.
Axiomatic_vampire
01-26-08, 07:56 AM I've never thought Assassins had to be evil, given two things:
1.) Poison is not inherently evil in your campaign. If it is, remove or do not use poison ability.
2.) Pre-requisite stating an assassin must murder someone specifically to be accepted as an assassin is probably a bad idea.

With those, my opinion is that good assassins are perfectly reasonable.
1 ton ghost
01-26-08, 03:15 PM ah, reasonable gentlemen and scholars.
i posted something to this affect a while back and an explosion of replies came in concerning the morality aspects and so on.

for your considertion (these are opinions mind you):

-assassin start at any non-good. it's the jobs you take and execute, not the entry to a mundane class. it's not like blackguard, you know? you have the option of turning down a contract and killing whom you want. yes, you will likely become evil if you indiscriminately kill ppl for $, but one can always choose their own path in life.
-guild affiliation is retarded. killing someone just to join "a guild" is retarded. perhaps a good plot hook, but not a necessity i feel. most professional assassins would be completely independent and self-sufficient. too many loose ends/contacts = less anonymity and a higher chance of getting caught. now, yes, some guilds can/would supply aid, but they can also roll over on you if you displease them. ie)a good assassin shouldn't be leveraged against.
you should not have to join a guild to qualify for a PrC. i mean, most PC parties want a degree of independence to begin w/, not be indentured to a group of shadowy ppl...especially those that might betray or strong arm said party into something they might not otherwise want to do...or enjoy.
-some poison use might be evil, Drow Sleep poison is decidely not. unless you are using it to murder an innocent type in their sleep, etc. who knows.

this isn't like paladins. pigeonholing and otherwise excellent PrC isn't fair. but there are many that would argue in maxims and absolutes concerning voaction and alignment, etc. i prefer role-playing myself, not invisible proclamations that don't justify their ends.
DonThelonious
01-26-08, 05:15 PM Seriously guys, the Avenger PrC I linked to in an above thread IS the Assassin. The flavor was changed as well as the alignment restrictions. Thats it. There you go, a good aligned assassin without having to houserule.

Sorry, nobody seems to be acknowledging this fact:P.

Cheerio gents:tiphat:
1 ton ghost
01-27-08, 12:41 AM Seriously guys, the Avenger PrC I linked to in an above thread IS the Assassin. The flavor was changed as well as the alignment restrictions. Thats it. There you go, a good aligned assassin without having to houserule.

Sorry, nobody seems to be acknowledging this fact:P.

Cheerio gents:tiphat:

no, i feel you Don, it's alright. it's just there shouldn't even have to be a "whole new PrC". alot of ppl resent the unrealistic boundries set for Asn in the DMG, so i guess they threw them a bone. just think about all the assassins in literature, cinema, TV, fantasy or otherwise. they don't all fit this motif very well. Leon, Agent 47, Altair, Le Femme Nikita, 007 (he did do wetwork), Aeon Flux (same thing), etc...all different though some actually did have a sorta' "guild affiliation" so to speak. not all were evil. and truth be told, a great many "novel character concepts" in game are cannibalized from our favorite media, you know?
i mean, if the plain vanilla assassin doesn't typecast, then i don't know what does. i like creative liberty and game growth, not unrealistic standards w/out much explanation or development.
oh, and there's a sect that thinks Avenger was a farce given it's release on April Fool's Day. a joke or some sh-t.
apart from dynamically evil spheres of influence like Blackguard, death cult types, ppl that traffic w/ demons, you know the obvious stuff, alignment restrictions have been poorly managed. like a Walmart in China, you know?
anyway, i'm w/ you and you/your timely mention is not getting the brush off of anything. it's cool...
Divisionbyzer0
01-27-08, 02:56 AM I think a neutral character could be an assassin provided he doesn't always get his contracts from evil organizations. A good one could be too provided he always works for good contractors.

I guess the idea of making an income by killing people is evil, but then all soldiers should be evil too.

All characters should be evil following this reasoning -- even lawful good characters slaughter hordes of beings and take their treasure quite happily for their own use over the course of the game and to provide themselves food and board in many cases. Brings up the question of whether "intent" should matter that much in deciding alignment or if the effective outcome of actions should. Anyhow, soon this thread could delve into philosophic ethics.

I think using poison that causes "unreasonable pain and suffering" could be ruled as relatively "more evil" than those that don't.

I don't think poison use should be any more evil than using weapons that have gruesome effects like say vorpal weapons.

Any reasonable DM would say that an assassins alignment is based on his choice of actions not on some silly archetype of what an assassin is.
dman11235
01-27-08, 03:12 AM Seriously guys, the Avenger PrC I linked to in an above thread IS the Assassin. The flavor was changed as well as the alignment restrictions. Thats it. There you go, a good aligned assassin without having to houserule.

Sorry, nobody seems to be acknowledging this fact:P.

Cheerio gents:tiphat:

Also, notice the top of the page (2nd paragraph), and the date: April 1st.

@ 1 ton: Just because it was April fools (they say so in the article, 2nd paragraph), doesn't mean it's not right. I personally like the idea of casting off the alignment restrictions. Not only on the assassin, but on most classes, except the paladin, and cleric to a degree.

Now, as far as poisons go: look in the BoED. Anything that causes unreasonable suffering is out, but there are still some poisons. And then ravages.

As for the rest of the alignment issues with the assassin, I can make a case for any alignment. It's hardest with CE actually (at least for the 'kill for hire' part), but easiest with LN and LE. N, NE, and NG tie for second, and C has it's place at the end. W/o the kill for hire, LG is the hardest to make a case for. Still easy though.
Divisionbyzer0
01-27-08, 04:15 AM I could see a chaotic evil assassin, only he'd probably end up killing his contractor for self gain or amusement and losing his rep as an assassin. Or killing a lot which on the job for fun or due to lack of inhibition along the way which would again ruin his rep as one who exercises caution and discrimination so as to not get caught. Chaotic evil is more just a violent criminal in the extreme a serial killer / mass murderer for fun like Carnage from Spiderman.
Captain_Kobold
01-27-08, 03:49 PM The reason for the entry requirements in the Assassin class is due to it being based upon a specific guild. The Death attack, poison use and spellcasting are all guild secrets that only guild members are trained in and not shared with outsiders.

The way the guild ensures that it keeps its reputation, and that its members will not be turning down or failing contracts due to moral issues is to require them to kill someone for no other reason than to prove that they are worthy to join. This ensures that all its members are evil.

If you do not wish to use the published flavour and restrictions of the Assassin class, simply ask your DM to houserule them away.
Or show them the Avenger but hide the date. :P
dman11235
01-27-08, 04:38 PM The reason for the entry requirements in the Assassin class is due to it being based upon a specific guild....

That's why we think it's dumb. Personally, I don't think that classes, base classes especially, should be tied to specific guilds and organizations. Examples are the Assassin, Fist of the Forest, and Thayan Knight. At least, not with really general ideas like the Thayan Knight, Assassin, and FotF. Some things (Pelor's Shadow Gaurd, Red Wizard, Forest Reeve) are okay to do that sort of thing with, because they have really specific abilities tied to the organization. Anyone can kill people effectively and study arcane arts at the same time (well, not anyone, but you get the idea), but only a dedicated healer and servant of Pelor can receive the vast healing opportunities that Radiant Servant of Pelor offer, along with the sun domain related thing: what other deity of the sun has access to the healing domain? The red wizard has a few abilities that directly tie it to Thay as well, and so does the Forest Reeve with the Gaurdians of the Green, iirc.
Axiomatic_vampire
01-28-08, 08:09 AM Seriously guys, the Avenger PrC I linked to in an above thread IS the Assassin. The flavor was changed as well as the alignment restrictions. Thats it. There you go, a good aligned assassin without having to houserule.

Sorry, nobody seems to be acknowledging this fact:P.

Cheerio gents:tiphat:

I didn't see the point in acknowledging it. I only do that when there might be some doubt and a second voice could be seen as useful. Took one look at the avenger and said to myself "well, this thread is over, that about does it."
The_Shaman
01-28-08, 12:54 PM That's why we think it's dumb. Personally, I don't think that classes, base classes especially, should be tied to specific guilds and organizations. Examples are the Assassin, Fist of the Forest, and Thayan Knight. At least, not with really general ideas like the Thayan Knight, Assassin, and FotF. Some things (Pelor's Shadow Gaurd, Red Wizard, Forest Reeve) are okay to do that sort of thing with, because they have really specific abilities tied to the organization. Anyone can kill people effectively and study arcane arts at the same time (well, not anyone, but you get the idea), but only a dedicated healer and servant of Pelor can receive the vast healing opportunities that Radiant Servant of Pelor offer, along with the sun domain related thing: what other deity of the sun has access to the healing domain? The red wizard has a few abilities that directly tie it to Thay as well, and so does the Forest Reeve with the Gaurdians of the Green, iirc.

I'm getting tired of those debates. Look, there are two things I can't stress enough, both of these - imo - provide an easy way out of the problem.

A) The DM is the authority on what limitations the PrCs have and when/how they are accessible. All the books are just guidelines - useful guidelines, but only that. I regard the Avenger PrC as a April Fool joke, but it is a perfect illustration of this principle.

B) You do not need to have a levels in the Assassin PrC to be an assassin. Seriouly, not only are there 4-5 PrCs with similar "fluff" and abilities to begin with (Justice of Weald and Woe, Imaskari Vengeance Taker, Black Flame Zealot, Shattered Peak Cultist, Teflammar Shadowlord, etc etc.), but most skill-based characters can be assassins just as well. Rogues are the best at it, but monks, bards, rangers and even others have the necessary stealth and expertise - combat or otherwise.

The major problem with the PrC is that its title suggests a broad stereotype (assassin is quite a general term), while the mechanics and flavor represents a rather narrow stereotype. It involves some mystical training - of whatever source (just how assassins have spells and rogues don't I would kill to know), and a particularly ruthless society which doesn't just kill anyone for money but actually has you kill people for a test. The last part certainly calls for evil alignment.
Death1942
02-01-08, 04:21 PM well i spoke to my DM about the Avenger class. he said its fine if u can find it in one of the DnD books. well after hours (literally) of searching i found squat.

the reason why i don't want to be a plain old assassin is because we are planning to head into the temple of Elemental evil (not a good idea to be changing alignments before or during that crawl).

is the Avenger in any of the DnD books?

if not then what do you think about playing a Black Flame Zealot? my only problem is i have never really cared much for my religion in the game and so meeting some of the requirements might be a little hard
DonThelonious
02-01-08, 04:50 PM Sorry to tell you this but the Avenger, as far as I know, is strictly found in the online supplement. It is official WoTC material and if your DM is worried about it you can point out that other than the entry requirements, flavor text, and spell list the Avenger is the EXACT same as the assassin in all other respects. The only big changes in the spell list are that the evil aligned spells are switched out for their good counterparts.

As for the Black Flame Zealot, iirc, that is a wholly evil PrC that gets some nifty abilities. We should have asked before hand if your allowed to use online material or if you were limited to just the books.

Another class you might consider is the Occult Slayer from CW. They are not ranger or rogue specific but they will give you huge bonuses when fighting magic using or magical enemies. IIRC The ToEE is chock full of dangerous outsiders and monsters with some pretty impressive spell-like abilities.

Hope this helps and good luck with your character in the coming adventure:D.

PS: Is the ToEE adventure your running 3.5? I have been looking around for a ToEE that was 3.5 and if that is what your DM has I would love to know where he/she got it. Feel free to PM if you like.
The_Shaman
02-01-08, 10:00 PM well i spoke to my DM about the Avenger class. he said its fine if u can find it in one of the DnD books. well after hours (literally) of searching i found squat.

the reason why i don't want to be a plain old assassin is because we are planning to head into the temple of Elemental evil (not a good idea to be changing alignments before or during that crawl).

is the Avenger in any of the DnD books?

if not then what do you think about playing a Black Flame Zealot? my only problem is i have never really cared much for my religion in the game and so meeting some of the requirements might be a little hard

In a DnD book? No chance, buddy. I still think it was an April 1st joke - a jab at all the people who wondered why assassins can't be non-evil. Note the date: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a

About the BFZ... it helps if your assassin believes in something, but you don't have to. If you allow FR material - and make no mistake, the BFZ is as much a Realms thing as the Shattered Peak Cultist - it's passable.. For some odd reason, WotC believes that killing for faith is somehow better than killing for money, so your character can get around without being paladin-smitable-evil with the BFZ, for all it's worth. Unfortunately, if you want to maximize the Death Attack DC, it helps if you do it with higher intelligence. If you are a rogue-archivist, good for you. If not, I hope you have a decent intelligence.

Other PrcS you might want to look at are the Shattered Peak Cultist (LEoF), Imaskari Vengeance Taker (cool, but a bit weak - Underdark) or even the Long Death Monk (PGtF). If someone fancies themselves an expert on Eberron/Greyhawk/Dragonlance-fu, please add to the list.
Death1942
02-02-08, 04:53 AM well (thankfully) my rolling was decent when i made my rogue and his intelligence was decent (i think 14) so the Black Flame Zealot sounds like its for me (maybe after ToEE i might consider assassin). any tips on how to maximize his Death attack?
The_Shaman
02-02-08, 11:53 AM I think there was at least one weapon that adds to the DC, and PrCs which give death attack iirc stack for the DC so you might get some Dark Hunter, Assassin, etc. later. Apart from that, it depends how starved for feats and cash you are - there's the old ability focus feat (+2 to DC), intelligence-boosting items, and so forth.

However, if you are playing a BFZ it helps to also have decent wisdom - it's an assassin/cleric hybrid, after all.
1 ton ghost
02-02-08, 12:21 PM -Black Flame Zealot, at least the one i'm familiar w/ (Unapproachable East) is not markedly evil. it can be, but is not stipulated as such from start align.
-for most interested in Asn, i would heavilly advise removing both Evil and Guild affiliation as prereq., unless you're looking for that "spooky cabal of shady thuggee types."
-never got a final word on the Avenger-is-it-a-farce thing from WotC. part of the the big F-U of April Fool's Day i guess. use as directed i guess.
The_Shaman
02-02-08, 01:53 PM Black Flame Zealot was reprinted (updated?) in Complete Divine as non-good. Personally, I'd say 95% of the members of such a society would be evil, but PCs and statistics don't mix anyway.

If you can use UEast, I'd advise you to get Teflammar Shadowlord instead of assassin anyway - or mix the two.
1 ton ghost
02-02-08, 03:46 PM Black Flame Zealot was reprinted (updated?) in Complete Divine as non-good. Personally, I'd say 95% of the members of such a society would be evil, but PCs and statistics don't mix anyway.

If you can use UEast, I'd advise you to get Teflammar Shadowlord instead of assassin anyway - or mix the two.

i don't use/have CompDivine if can believe it. i should i guess.
Shadowlord is badass. totally decent. i particularly like the template coupled w/ it. well worth the LA
The_Shaman
02-02-08, 06:52 PM i don't use/have CompDivine if can believe it. i should i guess.
Shadowlord is badass. totally decent. i particularly like the template coupled w/ it. well worth the LA

No problem, I like UE a lot more anyway, and it's PrCs are all quite good (except perhaps the Durthan). Still, being in the complete books makes a PrC much more respectable than being in a half-3.0 book from a particular setting.
Death1942
02-03-08, 02:03 AM unfortunately i dont have the book about the far east.

i suppose i can gear my character to be more of a front line combatant. my party lacks heavily in this area as we lost our fighter and the closest PC to a fighter in our party is our Cleric.

do you suggest BFZ to help the party out more in combat and grab some more levels in rogue?
DonThelonious
02-04-08, 01:52 AM Never ever ever ever ever EVER have the rogue be the frontliner.

If your going to go that route than you should begin taking levels of ranger for the animal companion and the fighting styles. If you go ranged and max out hide than you can get some pretty sweet sneak attacks with your bow within 30 feet.

Honestly though, from what I understand, your character was never meant to even be seen. If the party cleric chooses and prepares the right spells each day than he can actually make a better tank than the fighter.
Death1942
02-04-08, 03:19 PM well we don't have a fighter for some strange reason. the cleric is now filling that role. i just thought of going a more front line fighter would help our party more than a conventional rogue.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tigron321 01-25-08, 10:58 PM	Do you absolutely -HAVE- to be evil for this? I don't see why you can't kill evil creatures, or evil people to get into this PrC... Does anyone have any good PrC's for a ninja/rouge combo?
DonThelonious 01-26-08, 02:43 AM	Here is an alternate version of the Assassin, called the Avenger (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a). It is official WoTC material, so you need not worry about it being unbalanced (as far as WoTC stuff goes:rolleyes:). Hope this helps:D.
Divisionbyzer0 01-26-08, 03:16 AM	I think a neutral character could be an assassin provided he doesn't always get his contracts from evil organizations. A good one could be too provided he always works for good contractors. I guess the idea of making an income by killing people is evil, but then all soldiers should be evil too.
Axiomatic_vampire 01-26-08, 07:56 AM	I've never thought Assassins had to be evil, given two things: 1.) Poison is not inherently evil in your campaign. If it is, remove or do not use poison ability. 2.) Pre-requisite stating an assassin must murder someone specifically to be accepted as an assassin is probably a bad idea. With those, my opinion is that good assassins are perfectly reasonable.
1 ton ghost 01-26-08, 03:15 PM	ah, reasonable gentlemen and scholars. i posted something to this affect a while back and an explosion of replies came in concerning the morality aspects and so on. for your considertion (these are opinions mind you): -assassin start at any non-good. it's the jobs you take and execute, not the entry to a mundane class. it's not like blackguard, you know? you have the option of turning down a contract and killing whom you want. yes, you will likely become evil if you indiscriminately kill ppl for $, but one can always choose their own path in life. -guild affiliation is retarded. killing someone just to join "a guild" is retarded. perhaps a good plot hook, but not a necessity i feel. most professional assassins would be completely independent and self-sufficient. too many loose ends/contacts = less anonymity and a higher chance of getting caught. now, yes, some guilds can/would supply aid, but they can also roll over on you if you displease them. ie)a good assassin shouldn't be leveraged against. you should not have to join a guild to qualify for a PrC. i mean, most PC parties want a degree of independence to begin w/, not be indentured to a group of shadowy ppl...especially those that might betray or strong arm said party into something they might not otherwise want to do...or enjoy. -some poison use might be evil, Drow Sleep poison is decidely not. unless you are using it to murder an innocent type in their sleep, etc. who knows. this isn't like paladins. pigeonholing and otherwise excellent PrC isn't fair. but there are many that would argue in maxims and absolutes concerning voaction and alignment, etc. i prefer role-playing myself, not invisible proclamations that don't justify their ends.
DonThelonious 01-26-08, 05:15 PM	Seriously guys, the Avenger PrC I linked to in an above thread IS the Assassin. The flavor was changed as well as the alignment restrictions. Thats it. There you go, a good aligned assassin without having to houserule. Sorry, nobody seems to be acknowledging this fact:P. Cheerio gents:tiphat:
1 ton ghost 01-27-08, 12:41 AM	Seriously guys, the Avenger PrC I linked to in an above thread IS the Assassin. The flavor was changed as well as the alignment restrictions. Thats it. There you go, a good aligned assassin without having to houserule. Sorry, nobody seems to be acknowledging this fact:P. Cheerio gents:tiphat: no, i feel you Don, it's alright. it's just there shouldn't even have to be a "whole new PrC". alot of ppl resent the unrealistic boundries set for Asn in the DMG, so i guess they threw them a bone. just think about all the assassins in literature, cinema, TV, fantasy or otherwise. they don't all fit this motif very well. Leon, Agent 47, Altair, Le Femme Nikita, 007 (he did do wetwork), Aeon Flux (same thing), etc...all different though some actually did have a sorta' "guild affiliation" so to speak. not all were evil. and truth be told, a great many "novel character concepts" in game are cannibalized from our favorite media, you know? i mean, if the plain vanilla assassin doesn't typecast, then i don't know what does. i like creative liberty and game growth, not unrealistic standards w/out much explanation or development. oh, and there's a sect that thinks Avenger was a farce given it's release on April Fool's Day. a joke or some sh-t. apart from dynamically evil spheres of influence like Blackguard, death cult types, ppl that traffic w/ demons, you know the obvious stuff, alignment restrictions have been poorly managed. like a Walmart in China, you know? anyway, i'm w/ you and you/your timely mention is not getting the brush off of anything. it's cool...
Divisionbyzer0 01-27-08, 02:56 AM	I think a neutral character could be an assassin provided he doesn't always get his contracts from evil organizations. A good one could be too provided he always works for good contractors. I guess the idea of making an income by killing people is evil, but then all soldiers should be evil too. All characters should be evil following this reasoning -- even lawful good characters slaughter hordes of beings and take their treasure quite happily for their own use over the course of the game and to provide themselves food and board in many cases. Brings up the question of whether "intent" should matter that much in deciding alignment or if the effective outcome of actions should. Anyhow, soon this thread could delve into philosophic ethics. I think using poison that causes "unreasonable pain and suffering" could be ruled as relatively "more evil" than those that don't. I don't think poison use should be any more evil than using weapons that have gruesome effects like say vorpal weapons. Any reasonable DM would say that an assassins alignment is based on his choice of actions not on some silly archetype of what an assassin is.
dman11235 01-27-08, 03:12 AM	Seriously guys, the Avenger PrC I linked to in an above thread IS the Assassin. The flavor was changed as well as the alignment restrictions. Thats it. There you go, a good aligned assassin without having to houserule. Sorry, nobody seems to be acknowledging this fact:P. Cheerio gents:tiphat: Also, notice the top of the page (2nd paragraph), and the date: April 1st. @ 1 ton: Just because it was April fools (they say so in the article, 2nd paragraph), doesn't mean it's not right. I personally like the idea of casting off the alignment restrictions. Not only on the assassin, but on most classes, except the paladin, and cleric to a degree. Now, as far as poisons go: look in the BoED. Anything that causes unreasonable suffering is out, but there are still some poisons. And then ravages. As for the rest of the alignment issues with the assassin, I can make a case for any alignment. It's hardest with CE actually (at least for the 'kill for hire' part), but easiest with LN and LE. N, NE, and NG tie for second, and C has it's place at the end. W/o the kill for hire, LG is the hardest to make a case for. Still easy though.
Divisionbyzer0 01-27-08, 04:15 AM	I could see a chaotic evil assassin, only he'd probably end up killing his contractor for self gain or amusement and losing his rep as an assassin. Or killing a lot which on the job for fun or due to lack of inhibition along the way which would again ruin his rep as one who exercises caution and discrimination so as to not get caught. Chaotic evil is more just a violent criminal in the extreme a serial killer / mass murderer for fun like Carnage from Spiderman.
Captain_Kobold 01-27-08, 03:49 PM	The reason for the entry requirements in the Assassin class is due to it being based upon a specific guild. The Death attack, poison use and spellcasting are all guild secrets that only guild members are trained in and not shared with outsiders. The way the guild ensures that it keeps its reputation, and that its members will not be turning down or failing contracts due to moral issues is to require them to kill someone for no other reason than to prove that they are worthy to join. This ensures that all its members are evil. If you do not wish to use the published flavour and restrictions of the Assassin class, simply ask your DM to houserule them away. Or show them the Avenger but hide the date. :P
dman11235 01-27-08, 04:38 PM	The reason for the entry requirements in the Assassin class is due to it being based upon a specific guild.... That's why we think it's dumb. Personally, I don't think that classes, base classes especially, should be tied to specific guilds and organizations. Examples are the Assassin, Fist of the Forest, and Thayan Knight. At least, not with really general ideas like the Thayan Knight, Assassin, and FotF. Some things (Pelor's Shadow Gaurd, Red Wizard, Forest Reeve) are okay to do that sort of thing with, because they have really specific abilities tied to the organization. Anyone can kill people effectively and study arcane arts at the same time (well, not anyone, but you get the idea), but only a dedicated healer and servant of Pelor can receive the vast healing opportunities that Radiant Servant of Pelor offer, along with the sun domain related thing: what other deity of the sun has access to the healing domain? The red wizard has a few abilities that directly tie it to Thay as well, and so does the Forest Reeve with the Gaurdians of the Green, iirc.
Axiomatic_vampire 01-28-08, 08:09 AM	Seriously guys, the Avenger PrC I linked to in an above thread IS the Assassin. The flavor was changed as well as the alignment restrictions. Thats it. There you go, a good aligned assassin without having to houserule. Sorry, nobody seems to be acknowledging this fact:P. Cheerio gents:tiphat: I didn't see the point in acknowledging it. I only do that when there might be some doubt and a second voice could be seen as useful. Took one look at the avenger and said to myself "well, this thread is over, that about does it."
The_Shaman 01-28-08, 12:54 PM	That's why we think it's dumb. Personally, I don't think that classes, base classes especially, should be tied to specific guilds and organizations. Examples are the Assassin, Fist of the Forest, and Thayan Knight. At least, not with really general ideas like the Thayan Knight, Assassin, and FotF. Some things (Pelor's Shadow Gaurd, Red Wizard, Forest Reeve) are okay to do that sort of thing with, because they have really specific abilities tied to the organization. Anyone can kill people effectively and study arcane arts at the same time (well, not anyone, but you get the idea), but only a dedicated healer and servant of Pelor can receive the vast healing opportunities that Radiant Servant of Pelor offer, along with the sun domain related thing: what other deity of the sun has access to the healing domain? The red wizard has a few abilities that directly tie it to Thay as well, and so does the Forest Reeve with the Gaurdians of the Green, iirc. I'm getting tired of those debates. Look, there are two things I can't stress enough, both of these - imo - provide an easy way out of the problem. A) The DM is the authority on what limitations the PrCs have and when/how they are accessible. All the books are just guidelines - useful guidelines, but only that. I regard the Avenger PrC as a April Fool joke, but it is a perfect illustration of this principle. B) You do not need to have a levels in the Assassin PrC to be an assassin. Seriouly, not only are there 4-5 PrCs with similar "fluff" and abilities to begin with (Justice of Weald and Woe, Imaskari Vengeance Taker, Black Flame Zealot, Shattered Peak Cultist, Teflammar Shadowlord, etc etc.), but most skill-based characters can be assassins just as well. Rogues are the best at it, but monks, bards, rangers and even others have the necessary stealth and expertise - combat or otherwise. The major problem with the PrC is that its title suggests a broad stereotype (assassin is quite a general term), while the mechanics and flavor represents a rather narrow stereotype. It involves some mystical training - of whatever source (just how assassins have spells and rogues don't I would kill to know), and a particularly ruthless society which doesn't just kill anyone for money but actually has you kill people for a test. The last part certainly calls for evil alignment.
Death1942 02-01-08, 04:21 PM	well i spoke to my DM about the Avenger class. he said its fine if u can find it in one of the DnD books. well after hours (literally) of searching i found squat. the reason why i don't want to be a plain old assassin is because we are planning to head into the temple of Elemental evil (not a good idea to be changing alignments before or during that crawl). is the Avenger in any of the DnD books? if not then what do you think about playing a Black Flame Zealot? my only problem is i have never really cared much for my religion in the game and so meeting some of the requirements might be a little hard
DonThelonious 02-01-08, 04:50 PM	Sorry to tell you this but the Avenger, as far as I know, is strictly found in the online supplement. It is official WoTC material and if your DM is worried about it you can point out that other than the entry requirements, flavor text, and spell list the Avenger is the EXACT same as the assassin in all other respects. The only big changes in the spell list are that the evil aligned spells are switched out for their good counterparts. As for the Black Flame Zealot, iirc, that is a wholly evil PrC that gets some nifty abilities. We should have asked before hand if your allowed to use online material or if you were limited to just the books. Another class you might consider is the Occult Slayer from CW. They are not ranger or rogue specific but they will give you huge bonuses when fighting magic using or magical enemies. IIRC The ToEE is chock full of dangerous outsiders and monsters with some pretty impressive spell-like abilities. Hope this helps and good luck with your character in the coming adventure:D. PS: Is the ToEE adventure your running 3.5? I have been looking around for a ToEE that was 3.5 and if that is what your DM has I would love to know where he/she got it. Feel free to PM if you like.
The_Shaman 02-01-08, 10:00 PM	well i spoke to my DM about the Avenger class. he said its fine if u can find it in one of the DnD books. well after hours (literally) of searching i found squat. the reason why i don't want to be a plain old assassin is because we are planning to head into the temple of Elemental evil (not a good idea to be changing alignments before or during that crawl). is the Avenger in any of the DnD books? if not then what do you think about playing a Black Flame Zealot? my only problem is i have never really cared much for my religion in the game and so meeting some of the requirements might be a little hard In a DnD book? No chance, buddy. I still think it was an April 1st joke - a jab at all the people who wondered why assassins can't be non-evil. Note the date: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a About the BFZ... it helps if your assassin believes in something, but you don't have to. If you allow FR material - and make no mistake, the BFZ is as much a Realms thing as the Shattered Peak Cultist - it's passable.. For some odd reason, WotC believes that killing for faith is somehow better than killing for money, so your character can get around without being paladin-smitable-evil with the BFZ, for all it's worth. Unfortunately, if you want to maximize the Death Attack DC, it helps if you do it with higher intelligence. If you are a rogue-archivist, good for you. If not, I hope you have a decent intelligence. Other PrcS you might want to look at are the Shattered Peak Cultist (LEoF), Imaskari Vengeance Taker (cool, but a bit weak - Underdark) or even the Long Death Monk (PGtF). If someone fancies themselves an expert on Eberron/Greyhawk/Dragonlance-fu, please add to the list.
Death1942 02-02-08, 04:53 AM	well (thankfully) my rolling was decent when i made my rogue and his intelligence was decent (i think 14) so the Black Flame Zealot sounds like its for me (maybe after ToEE i might consider assassin). any tips on how to maximize his Death attack?
The_Shaman 02-02-08, 11:53 AM	I think there was at least one weapon that adds to the DC, and PrCs which give death attack iirc stack for the DC so you might get some Dark Hunter, Assassin, etc. later. Apart from that, it depends how starved for feats and cash you are - there's the old ability focus feat (+2 to DC), intelligence-boosting items, and so forth. However, if you are playing a BFZ it helps to also have decent wisdom - it's an assassin/cleric hybrid, after all.
1 ton ghost 02-02-08, 12:21 PM	-Black Flame Zealot, at least the one i'm familiar w/ (Unapproachable East) is not markedly evil. it can be, but is not stipulated as such from start align. -for most interested in Asn, i would heavilly advise removing both Evil and Guild affiliation as prereq., unless you're looking for that "spooky cabal of shady thuggee types." -never got a final word on the Avenger-is-it-a-farce thing from WotC. part of the the big F-U of April Fool's Day i guess. use as directed i guess.
The_Shaman 02-02-08, 01:53 PM	Black Flame Zealot was reprinted (updated?) in Complete Divine as non-good. Personally, I'd say 95% of the members of such a society would be evil, but PCs and statistics don't mix anyway. If you can use UEast, I'd advise you to get Teflammar Shadowlord instead of assassin anyway - or mix the two.
1 ton ghost 02-02-08, 03:46 PM	Black Flame Zealot was reprinted (updated?) in Complete Divine as non-good. Personally, I'd say 95% of the members of such a society would be evil, but PCs and statistics don't mix anyway. If you can use UEast, I'd advise you to get Teflammar Shadowlord instead of assassin anyway - or mix the two. i don't use/have CompDivine if can believe it. i should i guess. Shadowlord is badass. totally decent. i particularly like the template coupled w/ it. well worth the LA
The_Shaman 02-02-08, 06:52 PM	i don't use/have CompDivine if can believe it. i should i guess. Shadowlord is badass. totally decent. i particularly like the template coupled w/ it. well worth the LA No problem, I like UE a lot more anyway, and it's PrCs are all quite good (except perhaps the Durthan). Still, being in the complete books makes a PrC much more respectable than being in a half-3.0 book from a particular setting.
Death1942 02-03-08, 02:03 AM	unfortunately i dont have the book about the far east. i suppose i can gear my character to be more of a front line combatant. my party lacks heavily in this area as we lost our fighter and the closest PC to a fighter in our party is our Cleric. do you suggest BFZ to help the party out more in combat and grab some more levels in rogue?
DonThelonious 02-04-08, 01:52 AM	Never ever ever ever ever EVER have the rogue be the frontliner. If your going to go that route than you should begin taking levels of ranger for the animal companion and the fighting styles. If you go ranged and max out hide than you can get some pretty sweet sneak attacks with your bow within 30 feet. Honestly though, from what I understand, your character was never meant to even be seen. If the party cleric chooses and prepares the right spells each day than he can actually make a better tank than the fighter.
Death1942 02-04-08, 03:19 PM	well we don't have a fighter for some strange reason. the cleric is now filling that role. i just thought of going a more front line fighter would help our party more than a conventional rogue.