Post/Author/DateTime	Post
karossii 10-31-07, 02:50 PM	Okay, so the name sucks... every multiclass bard/paladin is called a bardadin. Suggestions for that as well as the class itself are welcome! Hit Dice: d8 Requirements: Alignment: Lawful Good Feats: Devoted Performer Skills: Diplomacy (8 ranks), Knowledge: religion (6 ranks), Perform [chanting, singing, poetry, oratory, or other vocal variant](8 ranks) Special: must possess the Special Mount and Bardic Music class abilities. Class Base Fort Ref Will Level Attack Save Save Save Spellcasting Special 1 +0 +2 +2 +2 +1 Paladin Bardic Music, Divine Performance, Special Mount 2 +1 +3 +3 +3 +1 Paladin, +1 Bard Harmonious Assault 3 +2 +3 +3 +3 +1 Paladin, +1 Bard Song of Grace 4 +3 +4 +4 +4 +1 Paladin, +1 Bard 5 +3 +4 +4 +4 +1 Paladin Powerful Presence 6 +4 +5 +5 +5 +1 Paladin, +1 Bard Song of Health 7 +5 +5 +5 +5 +1 Paladin, +1 Bard 8 +6 +6 +6 +6 +1 Paladin, +1 Bard 9 +6 +6 +6 +6 +1 Paladin Song of Divinity 10 +7 +7 +7 +7 +1 Paladin, +1 Bard Greater Song of Divinity Spellcasting: At each level you gain +1 caster level in the Paladin class. At each listed level, you also gain +1 caster level in the Bard class. {I am purposefully stating paladin and bard instead of arcane and divine, as this is meant for a true bard/paladin combo. I am open to suggestions, though - if it is felt it should be arcane/divine instead, I would probably reduce the divine casting side; the full progression is only to make up for a paladin's already weak casting.} Bardic Music: add together levels of the bard class, paladin class, and Bardadin class to determine total number of uses of bardic music, and what type of music is available. Divine Performance: The Bardadin can fuel his Turn undead or Smite Evil class abilities by expending 2 of his daily uses of bardic music in place of either one. Special Mount: add together levels of the bard class, paladin class, and Bardadin class to determine the Special Mount’s hit dice and abilities. Harmonious Assault: At 2nd level the bardadin may treat any wielded melee weapon as if it possessed the Harmonious enhancement as long as he is under the effect of his own bardic music. In short, he adds half his levels (bard + paladin + bardadin) to his damage rolls as bonus sonic damage. If the weapon already possesses the harmonious enhancement, this ability provides no further benefit. Song of Grace: The Bardadin may extend his Divine Grace to all allies within 30’ by this use of his bardic music. This does not stack with itself and thus provides no extra benefit to the Bardadin himself. This lasts 5 rounds after the ally no longer hears the bardadin perform or moves out of range; 10 with the Lingering Song feat. This use of bardic music requires 12 ranks of perform (singing). Powerful Presence: By expending one or more of his daily uses of Turn/Rebuke Undead as a free action, the Bardadin can double the range and maximum number of targets, if applicable of any one of his Bardic Music effects initiated in the same round. For example, by expending 3 uses (2x, 3x, 4x) of turn/rebuke undead as he initiates a fascinate performance of bardic music, the bardadin can effect up to 4 individuals who are within 120 ft (30 x 4 = 120). Song of Health: The Bardadin may extend his Divine Health to all allies within 30’ by this use of his bardic music. All allies (including the bardadin) gain fast healing equal to the bardadin’s level + Charisma bonus. This lasts 5 rounds after the ally no longer hears the bardadin perform or moves out of range; 10 with the Lingering Song feat. This use of bardic music requires 15 ranks of perform (singing). Song of Divinity: By expending two daily uses of his bardic music, the Bardadin can gain divine power. He (or one ally touched) undergoes a transformation similar to Visage of the Deity, as follows; • skin takes on a shining, metallic appearance • gain the ability to smite evil once more/day • gain darkvision to 60’ • gain resistance to acid, cold, and electricity 20 • gain damage reduction 10/magic • gain spell resistance 20. This transformation lasts for 1 round per character level. This use of bardic music requires 18 ranks in perform (singing). Greater Song of Divinity: By expending three daily uses of his bardic music, the Bardadin can gain divine power. He (or one ally touched) undergoes a transformation similar to Greater Visage of the Deity, as follows; • gain the [outsider] [lawful] and [good] subtypes • grow feathered wings that allow you to fly at twice your normal speed (good maneuverability) • gain +1 natural armor • gain low-light vision • gain darkvision to 60’ • gain resistance to acid, cold, and electricity 20 • gain +4 racial bonus on saving throws against poison • gain damage reduction 10/magic • gain spell resistance 25 • gain +4 divine bonus to all ability scores This transformation lasts for 1 round per character level. Alright, I'm not at all certain about the abilities. It feels not quite finished somehow. I am open to suggestions for additions as well as changes!
RobbyPants 10-31-07, 05:03 PM	I'm not a huge fan of either of the base classes, so I can't say this is something I'd ever consider playing, but all the same: The Cha synergy is certainly nice. Having 3 good saves is nice, but you may want to consider dropping one save to poor (possibly Ref?) and replacing it with a full BAB advancement. Maybe you didn't picture this guy as a front-liner though. This is a bit of a nitpick, but you may want to consider whether or not such a character can continue taking bard levels after the PrC. Typically, a lawful bard retains all abilities, but can no longer advance as a bard.
Windspear 10-31-07, 05:10 PM	The class seems fine to me, except one thing: saving throws. All of them on high is a little bit overpowered. I would definatly reduce reflex and maybe even fortitude. Other than that, the class seems just fine. P.S: Yes, the name sucks. Really hard. Try something more like, uhhh...... Divine Singer (if such a thing does not already exist).
karossii 10-31-07, 05:38 PM	The required feat, Devoted Performer, allows paladins to freely multiclass with bards, allows bards to advance while lawful, and lets their levels stack for purposes of determining smite and bardic music. That should take care of the nitpick. ;) As to the saves, bards get 2 (Ref and Will) and paladins get the third (Fort). if I dropped one, it would have to be Fort, as you were right in your guess - I don't really see these guys as being front-liners. They can fight fairly well (as good as rogues or clerics at least), but their role is to lead and inspire, and back up in battle where needed. I don't think 3 good saves is bad, with only d8 hit dice and 3/4 AB - it suits the monk just fine, as well as several similar PRCs. If more do feel it overpowered, it isn't too hard to adjust down. On the topic of names... I have thought of a few but feel they all suck - so I picked the worst one to name it, in hopes more people would make a suggestion. Here's what I have thought of; Divine Chorus Devoted Lyrist The Knight of the Voice Holy Troubador ... like I said, they all suck
Jaxgaret 10-31-07, 06:51 PM	I think that it is quite well balanced, actually. IMO all of the parts come together to make a nice Bard/Paladin hybrid. Good job! :) On the name: perhaps Consecrated Rhapsodist? Go to dictionary.com and search through the synonyms for Devoted, Bard, Blessed, etc.
Operation_Shoestring 10-31-07, 08:12 PM	Three good saves, and dual caster progression on a D8 hitdie? You need to tone that down. And you do realize that this, as currently written, is basically only ever going to be used as a 4 level dip on the way to SC-gish right? Bard 4/Paladin2/Your Class 4/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/Any full caster class 2 17 BAB, 18 CL, 9th level spells, 11 uses bardic music, nice class features. (no pally casting, but who cares?) I would suggest fixing this by requiring ability to cast divine spells as a prerequisite. That way 4 paladin levels are needed to get in.
karossii 10-31-07, 08:25 PM	Three good saves, and dual caster progression on a D8 hitdie? You need to tone that down. Well, the dual progression is not full - bard gets 7/10, and the paladin does get full...but it is paladin casting after all; which is inherently weaker than full casting. And you do realize that this, as currently written, is basically only ever going to be used as a 4 level dip on the way to SC-gish right? Bard 4/Paladin2/Your Class 4/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/Any full caster class 2 17 BAB, 18 CL, 9th level spells, 11 uses bardic music, nice class features. (no pally casting, but who cares?) I would suggest fixing this by requiring ability to cast divine spells as a prerequisite. That way 4 paladin levels are needed to get in.Actually, I already require special mount which means 5 levels of paladin...and even if not, that build wouldn't be taking all that much advantage of this class' features...not when they already have the required feat devoted performer (and probably another bard/paladin feat; initiate of milil)...
Operation_Shoestring 10-31-07, 08:36 PM	Well, the dual progression is not full - bard gets 7/10, and the paladin does get full...but it is paladin casting after all; which is inherently weaker than full casting. Still does not justify 3 good saves. Look at other dual progression classes. Most have weaker class abilities than yours (if they have any), smaller hit die, and at most 2 good saves. You're weaker than a full caster, true, but you're massively overpowered compared to a straight Paladin. better saves, extra casting, ability to fuel Turn Undead, and by proxy, divine MM or feats, with bardic music, which you get plenty of. Actually, I already require special mount which means 5 levels of paladin...and even if not, that build wouldn't be taking all that much advantage of this class' features...not when they already have the required feat devoted performer (and probably another bard/paladin feat; initiate of milil)... ack, missed that.
karossii 10-31-07, 08:37 PM	I think that it is quite well balanced, actually. IMO all of the parts come together to make a nice Bard/Paladin hybrid. Good job! :) On the name: perhaps Consecrated Rhapsodist? Go to dictionary.com and search through the synonyms for Devoted, Bard, Blessed, etc. Hmm, thanks for the comment and the suggestion... a couple quick thesaurus searches later I have a whole new list of half-assed sounding title, lol... What do you all think of Anointed Aesthete? Or maybe the Harmonious Paragon?
karossii 10-31-07, 08:40 PM	Still does not justify 3 good saves. Look at other dual progression classes. Most have weaker class abilities than yours (if they have any), smaller hit die, and at most 2 good saves. You're weaker than a full caster, true, but you're massively overpowered compared to a straight Paladin. better saves, extra casting, ability to fuel Turn Undead, and by proxy, divine MM or feats, with bardic music, which you get plenty of.Well, I suppose I can bump down the Fort save...there seems to be the most contention over having 3 good saves anyway; and/or drop hit dice to d6 for balance. ack, missed that.Easy enough to happen... :) [edit] responding to your suggested dipping problem, I moved the 4th level ability (use turn undead to expand bardic music range and targets) to 5th level; meaning to get it requires 2 lost caster levels in bard, not just 1. Haven't updated the saves yet, because I am in a rush and it takes a bit longer to do.
IdleAltruism 10-31-07, 09:26 PM	Hit Dice: d8 Requirements: Alignment: Lawful Good Feats: Devoted Performer Skills: Diplomacy (8 ranks), Knowledge: religion (6 ranks), Perform [chanting, singing, poetry, oratory, or other vocal variant](8 ranks) Special: must possess the Special Mount and Bardic Music class abilities. Earliest entry level 6 and 5 of them must be paladin. Why exactly do they need a special mount other then you want them to be level 5 paladin? I don't see any special mount benefits in the class itself. Maybe require something like Divine Grace as a class feature and a BAB of 5 or 6? This would open up some options and if you took out the LG requirement paladins of all types could enter the PrC. This class really doesn't offer many combat bonuses, I'm going to suggest lowering the HD to 1d6. Class Base Fort Ref Will Level Attack Save Save Save Spellcasting Special 1 +0 +2 +2 +2 +1 Paladin Bardic Music, Divine Performance, Special Mount 2 +1 +3 +3 +3 +1 Paladin, +1 Bard Harmonious Assault 3 +2 +3 +3 +3 +1 Paladin, +1 Bard Song of Grace 4 +3 +4 +4 +4 +1 Paladin, +1 Bard Powerful Presence 5 +3 +4 +4 +4 +1 Paladin 6 +4 +5 +5 +5 +1 Paladin, +1 Bard Song of Health 7 +5 +5 +5 +5 +1 Paladin, +1 Bard 8 +6 +6 +6 +6 +1 Paladin, +1 Bard 9 +6 +6 +6 +6 +1 Paladin Song of Divinity 10 +7 +7 +7 +7 +1 Paladin, +1 Bard Greater Song of Divinity Saves are a bit high and seeing how this isn't a melee type class I'm going to suggest dropping both Fort and Ref. The casting progression is strange. I understand not wanting anything but paladin/bard for entering this class but I really don't see why anyone would take any other class for the entry. Right now it would take 12 levels before sublime cord could even be attempted. Any divine caster would be out of their mind trying to use this class to their benefit. As it is now the casting progressions don't need to be Paladin/Bard. What is the paladin giving up to get into this class? 3-4 BAB, 1-2 CL, and 1 average HP a level. Whats is a paladin gaining from this class? Some nifty bardic music abilities, bard spells, 2 additional good saves, and full progression in basically every paladin ability that matters. Bardic Music: add together levels of the bard class, paladin class, and Bardadin class to determine total number of uses of bardic music, and what type of music is available. Given the special abilities this class grants for bardic music "what type of music is available" is overkill. I suggest removing it altogether, generally bard PrC give them new types of music(as this class does) and basically drops its old uses. Divine Performance: The Bardadin can fuel his Turn undead or Smite Evil class abilities by expending 2 of his daily uses of bardic music in place of either one. Combined with some divine feats I'm not sure how good this is. I'll do some research and get back to you. Special Mount: add together levels of the bard class, paladin class, and Bardadin class to determine the Special Mount’s hit dice and abilities. I suggest dropping this, has nothing to do with the class. Harmonious Assault: At 2nd level the bardadin may treat any wielded melee weapon as if it possessed the Harmonious enhancement as long as he is under the effect of his own bardic music. In short, he adds half his levels (bard + paladin + bardadin) to his damage rolls as bonus sonic damage. If the weapon already possesses the harmonious enhancement, this ability provides no further benefit. I think this is better left to equipment, I'm going to suggest dropping this as well. Its cool fluff but I don't believe it belongs in a PrC. Its going to eventually add 10 sonic damage on top everything else(thats half a smite at 20th level). Song of Grace: The Bardadin may extend his Divine Grace to all allies within 30’ by this use of his bardic music. This does not stack with itself and thus provides no extra benefit to the Bardadin himself. This lasts 5 rounds after the ally no longer hears the bardadin perform or moves out of range; 10 with the Lingering Song feat. This use of bardic music requires 12 ranks of perform (singing). Do they use his charisma modifier? If they use their own, depending on the party it could be pathetically weak or very very strong. If they use the Bardadin CHA mod its overpowered. I like the idea, but I believe its a little to powerful and variable either way. Maybe make this a progressing ability through his Bardadin, like inspire courage, +1 saves at first level etc. I kind of want to see their Aura of courage projected through their bardic music. Possible add an ability that whoever is affected by your bardic music is also affected by your aura? Just a suggestion. Powerful Presence: By expending one or more of his daily uses of Turn/Rebuke Undead as a free action, the Bardadin can double the range and maximum number of targets, if applicable of any one of his Bardic Music effects initiated in the same round. For example, by expending 3 uses (2x, 3x, 4x) of turn/rebuke undead as he initiates a fascinate performance of bardic music, the bardadin can effect up to 4 individuals who are within 120 ft (30 x 4 = 120). I like the way this class incorporates turn undead, I'd like to see more of that. Some divine feats I know require turn attempts, I'll take a look at them later and see if any could be useful or inspire ideas for this class. Song of Health: The Bardadin may extend his Divine Health to all allies within 30’ by this use of his bardic music. All allies (including the bardadin) gain fast healing equal to the bardadin’s level + Charisma bonus. This lasts 5 rounds after the ally no longer hears the bardadin perform or moves out of range; 10 with the Lingering Song feat. This use of bardic music requires 15 ranks of perform (singing). Wow, something like 20 fast healing? 1-5 would be alot(and probably to powerful) but this is overkill. Nerf it, maybe 1 faster healing for every 5 or ten ranks into preform? Or have it base at 2 fast healing and +1 for every 5 ranks? Song of Divinity: By expending two daily uses of his bardic music, the Bardadin can gain divine power. He (or one ally touched) undergoes a transformation similar to Visage of the Deity, as follows; • skin takes on a shining, metallic appearance • gain the ability to smite evil once more/day • gain darkvision to 60’ • gain resistance to acid, cold, and electricity 20 • gain damage reduction 10/magic • gain spell resistance 20. This transformation lasts for 1 round per character level. This use of bardic music requires 18 ranks in perform (singing). This is alot of versatility in one ability. They do have bard spells and spell list, wands and such aren't a problem. A 6th level spell for 2 bardic music seems like a bit to much. Greater Song of Divinity: By expending three daily uses of his bardic music, the Bardadin can gain divine power. He (or one ally touched) undergoes a transformation similar to Greater Visage of the Deity, as follows; • gain the [outsider] [lawful] and [good] subtypes • grow feathered wings that allow you to fly at twice your normal speed (good maneuverability) • gain +1 natural armor • gain low-light vision • gain darkvision to 60’ • gain resistance to acid, cold, and electricity 20 • gain +4 racial bonus on saving throws against poison • gain damage reduction 10/magic • gain spell resistance 25 • gain +4 divine bonus to all ability scores This transformation lasts for 1 round per character level.[/sblock] 9th level spell, its just way to much. Also the spell itself has a range of person and doesn't grant that many stat adjustments, so this is better then a 9th level spell. This class looks mostly like a buffer(I don't know anyone who likes playing a buffer). Bard/Paladin is a strange combination, I think it should focus less on either of their abilities and more on a unique mesh. More of a combatant that passively buffs allies(this is how I'd do it). A mounted bard also seems like an interesting concept as well(for some strange reason I see a horse maintaining bardic music), lots of ways to take this. Right now, this class needs quite a bit of tweaking. Its an interesting concept but I think you missed some key features on your first attempt. Lack of combat abilities is very strange for a paladin, the focus is on buffing, why take so many levels in paladins? I like the concept, but I suggest taking this back and redoing it with a bit more focus on what exactly you want to do. Interesting mechanics could be 1) using bardic music for special divine stuff, 2) using turn attempts for special abilities, 3) using them in conjunction for Divine bardic effects. Word of creation also comes to mind.
karossii 10-31-07, 10:14 PM	Okay, thanks for the detailed breakdown and critique! You're right about most all of what you posted, which is why it feels disjointed and unfinished to me. I do want this to be a true bard/paladin mix, not a bard dipping into pally or a pally dipping into bard. I intended to require more on the bard side as well, but then didn't want to push the entry back to 9th+ level... maybe I just should anyway. I would also love ideas on better combination abilities - keeping them as mounted paragons of purity, but with a musical magic about them. I thought of having bardic music having special effects for the special mount, and/or letting the special mount 'harmonize' and either boost the effects, or be able to maintain concentration for the bardadin, or something along those lines, but nothing I could think of seems good; only comical. I initially did remove the standard uses of bardic music, but then all the songs I was adding in were basically inspire courage, inspire greatness, and inspire heroics with different names... so I removed them all and went this route instead. I'm still open to changing that.
Jaxgaret 10-31-07, 10:34 PM	I'm going to suggest something a bit different that you can reject or modify if you like: First step: Make all the saves poor. Second step: Give them a class feature called Choral Blessing, which adds half of their Cha mod to every save (or just Will saves), up to a max of their Consecrated Rhapsodist (Bardadin PrC) level.
Operation_Shoestring 10-31-07, 11:00 PM	I'm going to suggest something a bit different that you can reject or modify if you like: First step: Make all the saves poor. Second step: Give them a class feature called Choral Blessing, which adds half of their Cha mod to every save (or just Will saves), up to a max of their Consecrated Rhapsodist (Bardadin PrC) level. The class already has divine grace from paladin, unless i missed something.
Zovc 10-31-07, 11:41 PM	I really like this idea. The meshing of a bard and a paladin is an interesting concept. Entry to this class, to me, seems weird. I have to be nonlawful (let's say I'm Neutral Good) as I gain levels in bard. Once I've satisfied the need for bard levels, I have to become lawful good to gain levels in paladin and this prestige class. Perhaps a way around this is giving good bards the ability to take levels in paladin. Or if I'm unaware of a change that makes paladins available to other alignments, please inform me of the most commonly adopted one. Now, I know everyone is pointing this out, but I think for sure your saves need to be dropped. You would be safe with all of them being poor, you're a bard with Divine Grace. This might be taken as a bad idea, but I think it would be interesting to allow you to cast paladin spells spontaneously based on your charisma score. You've got a very good idea here, I love it. I would also like to say that I enjoy playing buffers, and that I never was fond of mounts. :P
karossii 11-01-07, 01:28 AM	Okay, I missed the last few replies while I was off making the major overhaul to the PrC found below. I decided to use a name (Harmonious Paragon) even though it still doesn't sound as great as I want it to. {I do see the Consecrated Rhapsodist, which is good too...thanks!! But it still seems to be lacking that certain... ... perfectness, I am hoping for, lol). I also made a lot of changes to everything in the class. I thought of just editing the first post with these changes, but I think for now, at least, I will leave both versions up for comparison sake. Entry Requirements Alignment: Any Good (usually LG) Feats: Devoted Performer Skills: Diplomacy (9 ranks), Knowledge: Religion (9 ranks), Perform: Singing* (9 ranks) Spellcasting: Able to cast cure light wounds as an arcane spell, Able to cast bless weapon as a divine spell Special: Bardic Music (including the Inspire Courage effect) and Turn Undead, both at least 3/day {* or some other vocalization such as chanting, oratory, poetry, storytelling, etc.} Hit Dice: d6 Skills: Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Heal, Jump, Knowledge (all skills taken individually), Listen, Perform, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, and Tumble. Skill points at each level: 4 + Int bonus Class Attack Fort Ref Will Caster Level Bonus Save Save Save Level Special 1 +0 +0 +2 +2 +1P Bardic Music, Smite Evil, Song of Grace†, Special Mount 2 +1 +0 +3 +3 +1B,+1P Divine Performance 3 +2 +1 +3 +3 +1B,+1P Empowered Performance, Chant of Courage† 4 +3 +1 +4 +4 +1B,+1P Accompaniment (+1, standard action) 5 +3 +1 +4 +4 +1P Healing Harmonies† 6 +4 +2 +5 +5 +1B,+1P 7 +5 +2 +5 +5 +1B,+1P Accompaniment (+2, move action), Cacophonous Resonance† 8 +6 +2 +6 +6 +1B,+1P Musical Mount 9 +6 +3 +6 +6 +1P 10 +7 +3 +7 +7 +1B,+1P Accompaniment (+3, swift action), Song of Divinity††Bardic Music effects Spellcasting: At each level, gain 1 caster level in the Paladin class (+1P). At each listed level, gain 1 caster level in Bard class (+1B). These increases in caster level include the level of spells available, the number of spells known and cast/day, and any other effects based on caster level. Bardic Music: As per the Devoted Performer feat, all paladin and bard levels stack to determine the number of uses of bardic music each day. Levels in this class are added to that total, and also increases the bonuses from Inspire Courage based on Bard + Harmonious Paragon (but not Paladin) levels. Smite Evil: As per the Devoted Performer feat, all paladin and bard levels stack to determine the damage bonus of your smite evil ability. Levels in this class are added to that total, and also increases the number of uses/day based on Paladin + Harmonious Paragon (but not Bard) levels. Song of Grace: Starting at first level, you may expend one of your daily uses of bardic music to produce an effect similar to your Divine Grace ability. All allies gain a morale bonus equal to half your level (Harmonious Paragon levels only, minimum +1) to all saving throws as long as they can hear this performance and are within 30’ of you, and for an additional 5 rounds after you stop the performance (or 5 rounds after they can no longer hear you, or 5 rounds after they move out of range). This effect of bardic music requires a minimum of 10 ranks in perform: singing*. Special Mount: You may add ½ of your Bard class levels and all of your Harmonious Paragon class levels to your Paladin class levels to determine your effective level for the paladin’s Special Mount. If you do not yet have the Special Mount ability, you gain it now. In addition, you may choose to summon an unusual special mount (as per DMG pp. 204) – few Harmonious Paragons have a warhorse for a special mount. A Giant Eagle (see MM pp. 93) or Giant Owl (see MM pp. 205) or other beast capable of speech is most common, as it can be trained to assist with your bardic music (see 'Accompaniment', below) Divine Performance: You may use your Bardic Music to fuel your divine powers. By expending 2 of your daily uses of bardic music, you gain the use of an extra smite evil. By expending 3 of your daily uses of bardic music, you gain the use of an extra turn undead. Empowered Performance: By expending one of your daily uses of your turn undead ability, you may replicate any bardic music effect which you could normally produce, but at double its normal effectiveness (range, number of targets, bonus or penalty granted, etc.). You cannot maintain this effect, however, unless you also expend one (or more, if normally required) of your daily uses of bardic music – otherwise it is simply an instantaneous use (which may last for an additional 5 rounds, as per the bardic music abilities). Accompaniment: By 4th level, your special mount has associated with you long enough to understand the principles behind your bardic music. It may accompany your bardic music (through coughs, growls, hoofbeats, screeches, snorts, wingbeats, etc.) as a standard action each round, providing a +1 bonus to all bardic music effects which provide a morale bonus, or adding +1 to the DC if the effect allows a saving throw. If the mount is actually capable of speaking one or more languages, this bonus increases by an additional +2 (as the effect is not language dependent, it does not matter if anyone actually speaks or understands that language). At 7th level, in addition to increasing the bonus to +2, the required action for your mount decreases from a standard to a move action; and again at 10th it is reduced to a swift action, as the bonus is increased to +3. Chant of Courage: Starting at 3rd level, you may expend one of your daily uses of bardic music to produce an effect similar to your Aura of Courage ability. All allies gain immunity to fear as long as they can hear this performance and are within 30’ of you, and for an additional 5 rounds after you stop the performance (or 5 rounds after they can no longer hear you, or 5 rounds after they move out of range). In addition, enemies that are within range (30’) and can hear your chant must succeed a Will saving throw (DC = your actual ranks {not including your Charisma or other bonuses} in the perform: singing* skill) or become shaken as long as you maintain the chant. This effect of bardic music requires a minimum of 12 ranks in perform: singing*. Healing Harmonies: Beginning at 5th level, by expending one or more of your daily uses of bardic music and spending a full round action in song, you can use your Lay on Hands ability to heal additional damage. For each use of bardic music expended you can choose to double (using standard doubling rules – x2, x3, x4, etc.) the total amount of hit point damage you can normally cure in a day. You also gain the ability to use that healing touch to cure other ailments (as long as you have used Healing Harmonies at least once that day); By expending 5 points of hit point ‘healing’ you can instead heal 1 point of ability damage. By expending 5 points of hit point ‘healing’ you can instead remove the ‘dazed’, ‘fatigued’, or ‘sickened’ condition from one creature. By expending 10 points of hit point ‘healing’ you can instead remove the ‘exhausted’, ‘nauseated’, ‘poisoned’, or ‘stunned’ condition from one creature. By expending 20 points of hit point ‘healing’ you can instead remove one negative level from one creature. By expending 20 points of hit point ‘healing’ you can instead remove the ‘blinded’, ‘deafened’, or ‘diseased’ condition from one creature. You can remove one or more conditions from one or more creatures in addition to normal hit point ‘healing’ in the same day, as long as you have enough total points of healing to spend. Just as with the standard Lay on Hands ability, you may choose how much (and which type of) healing is applied to each creature you touch throughout the day. This effect of bardic music requires a minimum of 15 ranks in perform: singing*. Musical Mount: Starting at 8th level, your mount gains the ability to sing, in its own fashion. Even if it could not before, it learns to vocalize - it gains use of one language which you can speak and understand (you can decide or it may be determined randomly). Not only does this guarantee the extra +2 bonus from your Accompaniment class ability, but it allows the mount to perform its own bardic music, independently from you. It gains one daily use of bardic music per hit die it possesses, and knows all the same forms of bardic music effects that you do (with the same DC or level of bonuses you receive). It must meet all perform skill rank requirements for each type of music it wishes to perform. These effects are independent of your own bardic music, and require the mount to spend the normal standard action each round to maintain, if that is required of the effect being used. Finally, while your mount is performing bardic music, it cannot accompany you to empower your own bardic music. Cacophonous Resonance: At 7th level, you gain the ability to perform a devastating sonic attack, which can take effect in one of two ways. First, you may expend two daily uses of your bardic music ability and spend a full-round action belting forth a string of overpowering and supernaturally loud melodies which creates a 30’ cone or 60’ line (determined each time this ability is used) of sonic damage (1d6 per each 2 actual ranks in perform: singing* you possess). Alternately, you may expend three daily uses of your bardic music ability to begin a continuous droning chant which suffuses all of your allies’ weapons with resonating vibrations, increasing their damage by adding (1d6 points of sonic damage per each 3 actual ranks of perform: singing* you possess) to every successful attack. Maintaining this effect is always a standard action each round, regardless of any spells, feats, or items you may possess to alter that. All allies gain this bonus to damage as long as they can hear this performance and are within 30’ of you, and for an additional 5 rounds after you stop the performance (or 5 rounds after they can no longer hear you, or 5 rounds after they move out of range). This effect of bardic music requires a minimum of 16 ranks in perform: singing*. {I know this is simply a variation of the Dragonfire Inspiration feat, but it allows the use without expending 2-3 feats and possibly a race type as well. It also is limited by your actual ranks in a perform skill, rather than being based on Inspire Courage which can easily be optimized to ridiculous proportions for this application. It also allows for a breath weapon, which I feel all bards should have!} Song of Divinity: At 10th level, you may expend a number of daily uses of your bardic music to achieve a divine transformation. You gain the benefits of the Greater Visage of the Deity (see SpC, pp. 231) spell for 1 round per daily use of bardic music spent. Though you do not need to actively perform to enact or maintain this ability, you are surrounded with a ghostly heavenly chorus of music for the duration of this effect. This effect of bardic music requires a minimum of 18 ranks in perform: singing*. Okay, a ton of changes... let's see if I can sum them up. The entry requirements were changed to encourage more bard levels, and allow a paladin in with only 4 levels. I lowered hit dice and fort saves. I altered most of the abilities, with more emphasis on the blend of bard and paladin. I removed the stacking for types of bardic music, but added a clause to keep inspire courage leveled up. I added mount specific abilities, and some paladin based songs. I kept song of divinity, but changed it to be a bit more balanced (one round per BM expended, exactly as the spell). That hardly covers everything in detail, but it is just a summary, I suppose. So... lemme have it! What critiques, suggestions, comments, or complaints do you have for me?
Jaxgaret 11-01-07, 01:32 AM	The class already has divine grace from paladin, unless i missed something. No, you didn't miss anything.
Jaxgaret 11-01-07, 01:53 AM	Double post.
Jaxgaret 11-01-07, 01:57 AM	That hardly covers everything in detail, but it is just a summary, I suppose. So... lemme have it! What critiques, suggestions, comments, or complaints do you have for me? Well, I do love the plethora of class features you've created for this class. Cleric3/Bard2/PrestigePaladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestige Paladin)1 would be an awesome entry into this class, as it is written now. To prevent blatant power grabs like that (I'm sure there are others) and keep more of the Paladin flavor, I would recommend changing it back to +1 Paladin spellcasting per level. Half arcane progression is fine, though I didn't really see a problem with the 7/10 Bard spellcasting progression. There are plenty of PrCs out there that specify that they only advance a specific class's spellcasting. I think it is a bit underpowered now, though. Is it even as good as going straight Bard? It's not. It is better than going straight Paladin, but what isn't? Bring it back up a bit. As with any dual-spellcasting progression PrC, it seems more powerful than it actually is; you're so far behind the power curve in terms of spellcasting, that you can amp the power a bit and be fine.
karossii 11-01-07, 02:30 AM	I actually considered that, which is why I chose Bless Weapon, a spell not on the cleric lists of divine spells. The only way I know of getting that spell is by getting paladin level 4 and 1st level pally spells...
Jaxgaret 11-01-07, 02:41 AM	I actually considered that, which is why I chose Bless Weapon, a spell not on the cleric lists of divine spells. The only way I know of getting that spell is by getting paladin level 4 and 1st level pally spells... There are several PrCs that will get you access to that spell at 1st level that I know of - the Champion of Gwynharwyf, the Knight of the Chalice, and the Slayer of Domiel. There may be others. Or you can take a level in Prestige Paladin, as I stated, which would be optimal.
karossii 11-01-07, 02:54 AM	Well, I'm not all that familiar with the others, but prestige paladin specifically advances divine casting of the previous class - since cleric doesn't have access to bless weapon, neither does a cleric/prestige paladin. Anyway, since there are surely SOME workarounds out there (probably including the rest of the prc's you mentioned as well as others), it is more or less a moot point; I'll move back to the specific paladin/bard spellcasting advancement.
karossii 11-01-07, 03:03 AM	I really like this idea. The meshing of a bard and a paladin is an interesting concept. Entry to this class, to me, seems weird. I have to be nonlawful (let's say I'm Neutral Good) as I gain levels in bard. Once I've satisfied the need for bard levels, I have to become lawful good to gain levels in paladin and this prestige class. Perhaps a way around this is giving good bards the ability to take levels in paladin. Or if I'm unaware of a change that makes paladins available to other alignments, please inform me of the most commonly adopted one. Now, I know everyone is pointing this out, but I think for sure your saves need to be dropped. You would be safe with all of them being poor, you're a bard with Divine Grace. This might be taken as a bad idea, but I think it would be interesting to allow you to cast paladin spells spontaneously based on your charisma score. You've got a very good idea here, I love it. I would also like to say that I enjoy playing buffers, and that I never was fond of mounts. :P The alignment thing can be a sticky wicket for some. You do have to start out as any non-lawful, and then move to lawful good to get into paladin from bard. Once there, you take the feat 'devoted performer' which lets you continue advancing as a lawful bard and has some other nice side effects mentioned above. I know one DM I play with made another player take Devoted Performer at 1st level, even though I believe this is a technical violation of the feat's requirements...and started out at first level as a lawful good bard. I've played one character with this base, and found that it was simple enough to roleplay an epiphany so life-changing, in character, that the DM had no problem letting me switch alignments in the game at the start of my 3rd level (when I took both a first level in paladin and the devoted performer feat). I am sure in other cases, if the DM is aware of your intentions in advance, or even if it wasn't pre-planned but comes on for roleplaying reasons, an alignment switch to get into paladin would be acceptable.
Jaxgaret 11-01-07, 04:02 AM	Well, I'm not all that familiar with the others, but prestige paladin specifically advances divine casting of the previous class - since cleric doesn't have access to bless weapon, neither does a cleric/prestige paladin. Anyway, since there are surely SOME workarounds out there (probably including the rest of the prc's you mentioned as well as others), it is more or less a moot point; I'll move back to the specific paladin/bard spellcasting advancement. That's odd. I could have sworn that Prestige Pallies got Paladin spells on their spell list. But I think it's a good idea to keep it to Paladin/Bard spellcasting. That's what it's meant for, after all. For what it's worth, I found another method for a Cleric to get Bless Weapon as a known spell: the Glory domain, from CDiv.
karossii 11-01-07, 04:45 AM	That's odd. I could have sworn that Prestige Pallies got Paladin spells on their spell list. But I think it's a good idea to keep it to Paladin/Bard spellcasting. That's what it's meant for, after all. For what it's worth, I found another method for a Cleric to get Bless Weapon as a known spell: the Glory domain, from CDiv. I just double checked, and it is a possibility that the prestige paladin can get paladin spells - previously I had stopped reading at the 'spells per day' description on pp. 70 of Unearthed Arcana. I did have the foresight to glance at pp. 71 and see the entry did indeed end there, and the text specifically stated it advanced previous divine casting. And because I only glimpsed, even though I had already checked twice, I missed a sidebar both times. At the bottom of pp. 71, it indicates all 3 prestige classes (bard, ranger, and paladin) should receive their unique spells at the appropriate level. However, it is an optional sidebar, and thus not specifically a part of the class - yet still the possibility does exist (and I bet most who allow any of the 3 prestige classes will follow it). [edit] On triple-checking that sidebar, it states the spells should be received 'at the same levels indicated for the standard class'. Does this mean spell level or class level? I can see various DM's ruling either way - meaning a paladin wouldn't get bless weapon until 4th level, so a prestige paladin can't get it until 4th level... OR it is a 1st level paladin spell, so the prestige paladin can cast it as a 1st level divine spell. In any event, it's a moot point and I'm obviously tired to be double and triplpe checking myself on something I already declared a moot point and changed earlier. I'm off to bed!
bkdubs123 11-01-07, 11:17 AM	I liked this a bit more in its first incarnation, although now you are certainly focusing the class more. This one feels way too Bardy for me. You need to find a happy medium between the Paladin's martial ability and the Bard's music (don't forget that there are numerous ways to make a Bard a passable meleer as well). When I think Bardadin I think of a warrior who can inspire troops or allies with unparalleled valor and grace. I think of abilities that could be called say, Glorious Charge, or Chorus of Clashing Blades (stolen from my Songblade class). The Bardadin represents a warrior-poet to me and thus should probably get full bab, and maybe a lot less spellcasting to balance it out. They can still have music, and they should get bonuses for combining music with valorous attacks and combat manuevering. Glorious Charge might be a Charge attack with a heightened Inspire Courage effect tacked on, maybe only a few times each day, or using two attempts, or what have you. Chorus of Clashing Blades could be a passive song, maybe granting allies the benefits of sanctuary. Check out my Songblade base class and see what you can glean from that class. It is very much the warrior-poet archetype.
vorpo 11-01-07, 02:55 PM	Bardic Music: add together levels of the bard class, paladin class, and Bardadin class to determine total number of uses of bardic music, and what type of music is available. Special Mount: add together levels of the bard class, paladin class, and Bardadin class to determine the Special Mount’s hit dice and abilities. Why? Paladin lvl shouldn't count toward bard music and bard level shouldn't count toward paladin's special mount. Paladin and bard simply do not have synergy until you take this class. You shouldn't retroactively make them synergetic.
bkdubs123 11-01-07, 03:02 PM	More to think about: Inspiring Smite: A certain number of times each day a Bardadin can Smite Evil and use Bardic Music at the same time (so long as his Smite attempt succeeds). If the smite attack fells the foe he gets his use of bardic music back. The songs of Divinty are really good, and the sonic damage one can work, you just have to flavor it right. Voice of Judgement comes to mind. Maybe you should have it expend a use of Bardic Music and Smite Evil at the same time to use it though (it's pretty strong). Maybe make a song that disorients the enemies. I mean... a warrior, cracking skulls open and singing songs while he does it is pretty disorienting to begin with. Maybe something that lowers initiative and attack rolls or something.
karossii 11-01-07, 03:07 PM	I liked this a bit more in its first incarnation, although now you are certainly focusing the class more. This one feels way too Bardy for me. You need to find a happy medium between the Paladin's martial ability and the Bard's music (don't forget that there are numerous ways to make a Bard a passable meleer as well). When I think Bardadin I think of a warrior who can inspire troops or allies with unparalleled valor and grace. I think of abilities that could be called say, Glorious Charge, or Chorus of Clashing Blades (stolen from my Songblade class). The Bardadin represents a warrior-poet to me and thus should probably get full bab, and maybe a lot less spellcasting to balance it out. They can still have music, and they should get bonuses for combining music with valorous attacks and combat manuevering. Glorious Charge might be a Charge attack with a heightened Inspire Courage effect tacked on, maybe only a few times each day, or using two attempts, or what have you. Chorus of Clashing Blades could be a passive song, maybe granting allies the benefits of sanctuary. Check out my Songblade base class and see what you can glean from that class. It is very much the warrior-poet archetype. Thanks for the input! While I do like several of your suggestions, I would like to point out that in my mind, the bard/paladin combo is all about leadership through support, not combat. They are not the king at the front of a charge, first to fight. In my mind, that is a fighter's job. They are also not the ones to hang back behind the battle and watch dispassionately - that is an aristocrat's (or mage's) position. These are those who lead from the midst of their men, probably surrounded by an elite guard or group of close friends. They can hold their own when pressed, but tend to focus on the buffing. That is my image of a bardadin and focus in this class. I'll be making some more changes, including a bit of what you've suggested, but all in all I think it won't be much different from what I have now.
karossii 11-01-07, 03:08 PM	Why? Paladin lvl shouldn't count toward bard music and bard level shouldn't count toward paladin's special mount. Paladin and bard simply do not have synergy until you take this class. You shouldn't retroactively make them synergetic. Paladin and bard do have synergy before this class through a number of feats, one of which is a prerequisite for the class.
karossii 11-01-07, 03:09 PM	More to think about: Inspiring Smite: A certain number of times each day a Bardadin can Smite Evil and use Bardic Music at the same time (so long as his Smite attempt succeeds). If the smite attack fells the foe he gets his use of bardic music back. The songs of Divinty are really good, and the sonic damage one can work, you just have to flavor it right. Voice of Judgement comes to mind. Maybe you should have it expend a use of Bardic Music and Smite Evil at the same time to use it though (it's pretty strong). Maybe make a song that disorients the enemies. I mean... a warrior, cracking skulls open and singing songs while he does it is pretty disorienting to begin with. Maybe something that lowers initiative and attack rolls or something.Good suggestions all! Thanks for the input and I'll be using some of this for an update I am working on now.
Leress 11-02-07, 01:28 AM	Where are the weapon and armor proficiencies?
karossii 11-02-07, 04:49 AM	no new proficiencies gained... I did forget to put it in there, but since that is standard for 99% of prestige classes, it should be obvious.
vorpo 11-02-07, 01:50 PM	Paladin and bard do have synergy before this class through a number of feats, one of which is a prerequisite for the class. Even so, I highly disagree that somehow paladin level can count toward bardic music or bard level count toward special mount. By doing so, it's apparent to me you don't want to get behind in either ability. But that's what you are supposed to be when you multiclass.
bkdubs123 11-02-07, 02:37 PM	I agree with Vorpo here. The PrC levels can certainly count for both, but you shouldn't retroactively make the other levels counting for abilities they have nothing to do with.
Jaxgaret 11-02-07, 03:05 PM	Even so, I highly disagree that somehow paladin level can count toward bardic music or bard level count toward special mount. By doing so, it's apparent to me you don't want to get behind in either ability. But that's what you are supposed to be when you multiclass. I agree with Vorpo here. The PrC levels can certainly count for both, but you shouldn't retroactively make the other levels counting for abilities they have nothing to do with. The Devoted Performer feat already does that, you nattering nabobs of negativity! Read and reason before you post. Karossii even already answered this, and you're still harping on it.
bkdubs123 11-02-07, 04:42 PM	Devoted Performer stacks the levels for how many times each day a Bardadin can use Music, but does not effect what types of music you can use. It also has nothing to do with Special Mount, it merely adds bard levels with paladin to determine the damage dealt by a Smite. There is one other bard/paladin feat in Champions of Valor a somewhat obscure Forgotten Realms book, but I can't remember exactly what it does.
vorpo 11-02-07, 07:10 PM	The Devoted Performer feat already does that, you nattering nabobs of negativity! Read and reason before you post. Karossii even already answered this, and you're still harping on it. Whatever bkdubs123 said. Oh, and donate me like $500 so I can get all the books.
karossii 11-02-07, 08:49 PM	Aside from the Devoted Performer, Initiate of Milil, and Song to Smite feats, which are specific to paladins and bards meshing, there are quite a few other 'offically' published feats and prestige class abilities which allow stacking of multiple class levels for determining class abilities. If you would prefer to view it in that manner, think of that as a combination of a free feat which allows the paladin and bard levels to stack for the special mount (as that is the only new thing I presented), along with the advancement of the special mount through this prestige class. If you just have a problem with blending bards and paladins in general, and this is pointless hostility, then it will be readily apparent in your next post or two and I'll completely ignore you. I don't have time to waste on such idiocy.
karossii 11-02-07, 08:53 PM	Minor updates, but mainly an explanation for the delay in a major update I mentioned before... I took the 10-level Prestige Class I created above, whose aim was to mesh the abilities of the Bard and Paladin core classes, and I split it into three separate 4-level Prestige Classes. Why? The reason is simple; there seem to be multiple conceptualizations of how a bard and paladin should mix. One has it as a primary combatant/leader that can also support his troops. Another has it as a support focused character that can handle themselves in a fight, but are not optimized for combat. I was initially striving to find the perfect blend of the two concepts, but either way I went, I had someone complaining about their particular view and desires not being met adequately. (Not just o n these forums, but in other areas I presented it as well.) So now, I have taken the class and made two different 'bases' which can be taken together or separately; one which is combat focused and one which is support focused. I then added a 'capstone' class to aid in the blending and provide stronger powers. This allows those who want the first to take a combat and capstone only, those who prefer the second can take the support and capstone only, and those who fall in the middle can take all three classes. OR, only the third could be taken (albeit at higher levels), or only one or both of the base classes taken. Whatever you want. In any case, I'm still in the midst of tweaking these to get them to the point I like them enough to post.
Jaxgaret 11-03-07, 11:13 PM	Minor updates, but mainly an explanation for the delay in a major update I mentioned before... I took the 10-level Prestige Class I created above, whose aim was to mesh the abilities of the Bard and Paladin core classes, and I split it into three separate 4-level Prestige Classes. Why? The reason is simple; there seem to be multiple conceptualizations of how a bard and paladin should mix. One has it as a primary combatant/leader that can also support his troops. Another has it as a support focused character that can handle themselves in a fight, but are not optimized for combat. I was initially striving to find the perfect blend of the two concepts, but either way I went, I had someone complaining about their particular view and desires not being met adequately. (Not just o n these forums, but in other areas I presented it as well.) So now, I have taken the class and made two different 'bases' which can be taken together or separately; one which is combat focused and one which is support focused. I then added a 'capstone' class to aid in the blending and provide stronger powers. This allows those who want the first to take a combat and capstone only, those who prefer the second can take the support and capstone only, and those who fall in the middle can take all three classes. OR, only the third could be taken (albeit at higher levels), or only one or both of the base classes taken. Whatever you want. In any case, I'm still in the midst of tweaking these to get them to the point I like them enough to post. Sounds awesome. I can't wait to check it out!
Jaxgaret 11-03-07, 11:38 PM	Devoted Performer stacks the levels for how many times each day a Bardadin can use Music, but does not effect what types of music you can use. So does karossii's Harmonious Paragon of Faith: Bardic Music: As per the Devoted Performer feat, all paladin and bard levels stack to determine the number of uses of bardic music each day. Levels in this class are added to that total, and also increases the bonuses from Inspire Courage based on Bard + Harmonious Paragon (but not Paladin) levels. The Harmonious Paragon levels advance IC progression and # of BM uses/day, and nothing else. And it does no such retroactive addition of Paladin levels to effective Bardic Music level as you suggested above: I highly disagree that somehow paladin level can count toward bardic music I agree with Vorpo here. The PrC levels can certainly count for both, but you shouldn't retroactively make the other levels counting for abilities they have nothing to do with. ________________________________________ _____________________________________ Whatever bkdubs123 said. Except that bkdubs is wrong. Oh, and donate me like $500 so I can get all the books. You're posting about things that you don't even have the books for and have no idea what they actually do? That's... ill-advised. No matter if you can afford the books or not, don't post what you don't know. You can just ask instead of spouting off uninformed opinions. No excuses necessary.
Jaxgaret 11-03-07, 11:40 PM	Double post.
bkdubs123 11-04-07, 02:43 AM	@Karossii: I have no problem blending Bard with Paladin. The two go together like PB&J! I just think that certain powers don't blend well together. Like Special Mount gaining strength from Bard levels (or Smite for that matter, but since there are existing feats that do it, there's no reason for your class not to) and gaining new uses of Bardic Music from Paladin levels. I see now that the Special Mount only gains half power from Bard levels (seems okay to me especially with the Accompaniment feature), and that you DO NOT give things like Inspire Greatness and Song of Freedom through stacked levels. I thought you did. My error. Did the first incarnation? Anyway, carry on! I look forward to reading the three classes this has been split into!
karossii 11-07-07, 04:10 AM	As the new classes are fairly different from start to finish, I decided to start a new thread for them. It can be found here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=949442).