The Blessed Thief - PEACH [Archive] - Wizards Community

The Blessed Thief - PEACH [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Liquidska
12-17-07, 05:06 PM I posted a bit ago about a Cleric/Rogue prestige class, I never did find one that suited me quite right. So I took the ones that did work for me and mixed and matched a bit. This si a mix of Temple Raider of Olidarama (CD), Luckstealer (RoW), Shadowbane Stalker (CAdv), Assassin (DMG), and Auspician (Faiths and Pantheons)

It’s been a while since I made a PrC so I am tempted to say that this is over powered, but I figure between the heavily stunted sneak attack progression and the need to focus on a few stats will balance it out. Any advice is appreciated

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/completechampion_gallery/104764.jpg

The Blessed Thief

A blessed thief is the scoundrel of the gods, a devout worshiper of the divine ne’er-do-wells. Mixing the perfect agility of rouges with the devotion of clerics, the Blessed Thief comes out with a very distinct style of spells and stealth. Able to talk to there deity on a more real basis, a blessed Thief is able to augment her own thief skills with that of the divine.

Clerics are usually the most common members of this class, possibly picking up a level of rogue to help them meet the skill requirements, or alternatively taking the trickery domain. Favored souls are known to take this class occasionally, as a much more free spirited divine caster, they can sympathize with the Blessed Thieves carefree nature. Druids rarely consider this class, wile they can meet several of the requirements, the gods of thieving rarely care enough for nature.

Hit Die: d6.

Requirements
To qualify to become a Blessed Thief, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Alignment: Any Nonlawful
Skills: Bluff 5 ranks, Hide 8 Ranks, Disguise 8 Ranks, Knowledge (Religion) 5 Ranks
Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells
Special: The character must be a worshiper of “thief god”, such as Dallah Thaun, or Olidarama.

Class Skills
The Blessed Thief’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Knowledge (Religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex).See Chapter 4 of the Player’s Handbook for skill descriptions.

Skill Points at Each Level: 6 + Int modifier.

CLASS FEATURES
All of the following are class features of the Blessed Thief prestige class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Blessed Thiefs gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.

Spells per Day/Spells Known: At 1st level, and every three levels thereafter, a Blessed Thief gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in any divine spell casting class to which he belonged before adding the prestige class level. If he had more than one arcane divine spell casting class or divine spell casting class before becoming a Blessed Thief, he must decide to which class to add each Blessed Thief level for the purpose of determining spells per day, spells known, and overall caster level. At all other levels, he may choose to do this with any one divine spell casting class to which he belonged before adding the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained.

Trap finding: A Blessed Thief can find and detect traps just as a rogue can. See rogue description. If the Blessed Thief already had this ability, then she gains +2 to all Disable Device, Search, and Spellcraft checks related to traps.

Poison Use (Ex): While distasteful to others, a Blessed thief is not one to let others dictate how they fight. They know that sometime, a special mix of sleeping juice is the difference between captivity and freedom. Blessed Thieves are trained in the use of poison and never risk accidentally poisoning themselves when applying poison to a blade.

Silent Spell: Even the most dimwitted of thieves know that opening your mouth while sneaking past the guards can prove fatal. The Blessed Thief knows this better then any one else, she gains the Silent spell metamagic feat as a bonus feat.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a Blessed Thief can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a Blessed Thief already has uncanny dodge from a different class she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

Sneak Attack: At 4th level a Blessed Thief can take advantage of temporary lapses in a foes defense and strike them when they are most venerable. They gain +1d6 Sneak attack damage as a rogue, at level 8 it increases to +2d6

Sacred Stealth (Su): As a free action, a Blessed Thief can give up any of her spells (or potential spells slots if she casts them spontaneously) and add the level of the spell to all Hide, Move Silently, Sleight of Hand, and Escape Artist checks for the next number of rounds equal to Blessed Thief level. This ability does not function if you are wearing medium or heavy armor or carrying a heavy load

Lucky Magic (Su): The Thief gods are kind to there followers, occasionally lending them a touch more luck then they should rightly have. At 6th level, whenever a Blessed Thief casts a spell that has a variable, numeric effect, you can reroll one die out of every five (minimum one reroll). You must take this result even if it’s worse.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A rogue of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked.
This defense denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does. If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.

Slippery Mind (Su): This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name, except that it is a supernatural rather than extraordinary ability.

Escape: A number of times per day equal to your Dexterity modifier, a Blessed thief can use slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door. Her caster level this effect is one-half her Character level. This ability does not function if you are wearing medium or heavy armor or carrying a heavy load

Lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Special Spells per Day/Spells Known
1 +0 +0 +2 +2 Trapfinding, Poison Use +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
2 +1 +0 +3 +3 Silent Spell +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
3 +2 +1 +3 +3 Uncanny Dodge +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
4 +3 +1 +4 +4 Sneak Attack +1d6 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
5 +3 +1 +4 +4 Sacred Stealth +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
6 +4 +2 +5 +5 Lucky Magic +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
7 +5 +2 +5 +5 Improved Uncanny Dodge +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
8 +6 +2 +6 +6 Sneak Attack +2d6 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
9 +6 +3 +6 +6 Slippery Mind +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
10 +7 +3 +7 +7 Escape +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
Liquidska
12-18-07, 11:29 PM So it's perfect? Peachy!

I wonder if wizards will give me a job.
StevenO
12-19-07, 12:45 AM So it's perfect? Peachy!

I wonder if wizards will give me a job.
Not even close. Bumping a thread in less than 48 hours can be considered a violation of the CoC and getting no response doesn't indicate that it is good or bad.

Why this class is unbalanced: It exchanges one hp per level (the drop from d8 to d6) and advancing turning power (attempts will probably power divine feats anyway) in exchange for four more skill points each level, shifting your Good FORT save over to REF, AND gives an additions special ability beyond improved spellcasting each and every level. This is all compared to the single class cleric which is all that is required to enter this class at only 6th level.

Assuming you want to keep this open to a straigh Cleric with Trickery there are a few things I think need to be done to get any balance:

Spellcasting: You need to give up some caster levels. I'd say at least three including first level. You text is either misleading or something else is wrong because the table shows full casting.

Poison Use: Drop this. The classes that get this ability also have an "evil" prereq which this doesn't so it isn't appropriate.

Lucky Magic: To complicated. If replaced in stead of removed I'd suggest you grant a DC to spells cast against a sneak attack eligable target.

Escape: Usable far too often. This should be a once per day ability otherwise it will lose any "escape" aspect it should have if it can be used for too many things.
AllWillFall2Me
12-19-07, 01:53 AM The first thing that needs to be addressed is spellcasting. With full, this is overpowered. With the text's assertion of advancement, it looks much more even.

As to Steven's points, I see no need to drop Poison Use. I don't believe his assertion of constant evil is correct, I seem to recall several "non-good" classes obtaining it, it could be myself that is mistaken.

I wouldn't call Lucky Magic too complicated, but it is a bit weird. It would be simpler to allow a reroll of the lowest die .

The problem I see with Escape is you're adding MAD to the Cleric. This is also shown by Sacred Stealth, and of course the entire concept of a Thief-Priest. Clerics rely on Wis, Con, and Cha. Rogues focus on Dex, Int, and Cha. So your efforts to force The Blessed Thief to be Dex dependent, I think, cloud the waters a little. I feel they match the flavor really well, they just seem strange.

You have several grammatical and structure flaws, but over all it could be understood.
Liquidska
12-19-07, 12:22 PM Using poision in of itself isn't evil, it's not quite paladin type behavoir but there is nothing evil about it. Esspecially if the charcter restricts themselves to sleeping and knock out poisions.

I lifted lucky magic from the Luck Stealer from Race of the Wild, I don't think its to terribly complicated, but for simplicity maybe the lowest roll would be better. Wouldn't be as powerful then either.

As far as escape goes, It was somewhat my intention to spread out the abilites. I figuired that basing it per use on wisdom would give to much, I wanted a score taht would make sense logically but not give 7 uses per day. Maybe I will change it to once per day.

If at all possible, I would like to keep the spellcasting intact at one per level. What would you suggest dropping? Loose Uncanny dodge and Sneak attack?
sigma999
12-21-07, 07:46 PM At least from a personal viewpoint, it's something that's neither well-desired nor lacking in D&D.
As you summed, there are other PrCs that do the same. Prestiges classes that combine the features of 2 other classes are a worth a peso each.
CharOp eats em up.

However, it's not very niche-oriented. Players will glance at this, then at one of the other barrelfulls of rogue/clerics, and proceed to abuse the f out of their 'build'.
If it doesn't reek of POWER and WIN, they will scrap a class like it's nothing.
That's one side of the audience.

One the other, there are gamers that love a good background to their characters.
These people will stay up all night, show up late for exams, because they were writing their character history.
They love a class with an inherent association to a place, a time, a function, a specific role that no one else can fill.
That's the other population.

There's many in between but they are less vocal or written about their likings. They lurk, they glimpse, and they move on.
The ever-climbing post counts on our threads attest to this.
They are looking for the next "Naruto ninja" or "Bleach samurai" or whatever activates the instinctive weeaboo region of their cerebellum.

So consider who you're creating the class for and adjust accordingly, cuz (and not to seem rude) from what I see, it just doesn't stand out. It's like the Mystic Theurge, but much less powerful.
Design is not a science, so if you take the best of Clerics/Rogues/whatever other similar PrCs and throw it together, there's no guarantee it will be balanced.
But still keep the objective in mind "what does this class do?" and if no other class out there does even similar, you'll know you have something original and new.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Liquidska 12-17-07, 05:06 PM	I posted a bit ago about a Cleric/Rogue prestige class, I never did find one that suited me quite right. So I took the ones that did work for me and mixed and matched a bit. This si a mix of Temple Raider of Olidarama (CD), Luckstealer (RoW), Shadowbane Stalker (CAdv), Assassin (DMG), and Auspician (Faiths and Pantheons) It’s been a while since I made a PrC so I am tempted to say that this is over powered, but I figure between the heavily stunted sneak attack progression and the need to focus on a few stats will balance it out. Any advice is appreciated http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/completechampion_gallery/104764.jpg The Blessed Thief A blessed thief is the scoundrel of the gods, a devout worshiper of the divine ne’er-do-wells. Mixing the perfect agility of rouges with the devotion of clerics, the Blessed Thief comes out with a very distinct style of spells and stealth. Able to talk to there deity on a more real basis, a blessed Thief is able to augment her own thief skills with that of the divine. Clerics are usually the most common members of this class, possibly picking up a level of rogue to help them meet the skill requirements, or alternatively taking the trickery domain. Favored souls are known to take this class occasionally, as a much more free spirited divine caster, they can sympathize with the Blessed Thieves carefree nature. Druids rarely consider this class, wile they can meet several of the requirements, the gods of thieving rarely care enough for nature. Hit Die: d6. Requirements To qualify to become a Blessed Thief, a character must fulfill all the following criteria. Alignment: Any Nonlawful Skills: Bluff 5 ranks, Hide 8 Ranks, Disguise 8 Ranks, Knowledge (Religion) 5 Ranks Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells Special: The character must be a worshiper of “thief god”, such as Dallah Thaun, or Olidarama. Class Skills The Blessed Thief’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Knowledge (Religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex).See Chapter 4 of the Player’s Handbook for skill descriptions. Skill Points at Each Level: 6 + Int modifier. CLASS FEATURES All of the following are class features of the Blessed Thief prestige class. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Blessed Thiefs gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor. Spells per Day/Spells Known: At 1st level, and every three levels thereafter, a Blessed Thief gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in any divine spell casting class to which he belonged before adding the prestige class level. If he had more than one arcane divine spell casting class or divine spell casting class before becoming a Blessed Thief, he must decide to which class to add each Blessed Thief level for the purpose of determining spells per day, spells known, and overall caster level. At all other levels, he may choose to do this with any one divine spell casting class to which he belonged before adding the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. Trap finding: A Blessed Thief can find and detect traps just as a rogue can. See rogue description. If the Blessed Thief already had this ability, then she gains +2 to all Disable Device, Search, and Spellcraft checks related to traps. Poison Use (Ex): While distasteful to others, a Blessed thief is not one to let others dictate how they fight. They know that sometime, a special mix of sleeping juice is the difference between captivity and freedom. Blessed Thieves are trained in the use of poison and never risk accidentally poisoning themselves when applying poison to a blade. Silent Spell: Even the most dimwitted of thieves know that opening your mouth while sneaking past the guards can prove fatal. The Blessed Thief knows this better then any one else, she gains the Silent spell metamagic feat as a bonus feat. Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a Blessed Thief can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a Blessed Thief already has uncanny dodge from a different class she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead. Sneak Attack: At 4th level a Blessed Thief can take advantage of temporary lapses in a foes defense and strike them when they are most venerable. They gain +1d6 Sneak attack damage as a rogue, at level 8 it increases to +2d6 Sacred Stealth (Su): As a free action, a Blessed Thief can give up any of her spells (or potential spells slots if she casts them spontaneously) and add the level of the spell to all Hide, Move Silently, Sleight of Hand, and Escape Artist checks for the next number of rounds equal to Blessed Thief level. This ability does not function if you are wearing medium or heavy armor or carrying a heavy load Lucky Magic (Su): The Thief gods are kind to there followers, occasionally lending them a touch more luck then they should rightly have. At 6th level, whenever a Blessed Thief casts a spell that has a variable, numeric effect, you can reroll one die out of every five (minimum one reroll). You must take this result even if it’s worse. Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A rogue of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked. This defense denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does. If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character. Slippery Mind (Su): This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name, except that it is a supernatural rather than extraordinary ability. Escape: A number of times per day equal to your Dexterity modifier, a Blessed thief can use slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door. Her caster level this effect is one-half her Character level. This ability does not function if you are wearing medium or heavy armor or carrying a heavy load Lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Special Spells per Day/Spells Known 1 +0 +0 +2 +2 Trapfinding, Poison Use +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 2 +1 +0 +3 +3 Silent Spell +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 3 +2 +1 +3 +3 Uncanny Dodge +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 4 +3 +1 +4 +4 Sneak Attack +1d6 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 5 +3 +1 +4 +4 Sacred Stealth +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 6 +4 +2 +5 +5 Lucky Magic +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 7 +5 +2 +5 +5 Improved Uncanny Dodge +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 8 +6 +2 +6 +6 Sneak Attack +2d6 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 9 +6 +3 +6 +6 Slippery Mind +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 10 +7 +3 +7 +7 Escape +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
Liquidska 12-18-07, 11:29 PM	So it's perfect? Peachy! I wonder if wizards will give me a job.
StevenO 12-19-07, 12:45 AM	So it's perfect? Peachy! I wonder if wizards will give me a job. Not even close. Bumping a thread in less than 48 hours can be considered a violation of the CoC and getting no response doesn't indicate that it is good or bad. Why this class is unbalanced: It exchanges one hp per level (the drop from d8 to d6) and advancing turning power (attempts will probably power divine feats anyway) in exchange for four more skill points each level, shifting your Good FORT save over to REF, AND gives an additions special ability beyond improved spellcasting each and every level. This is all compared to the single class cleric which is all that is required to enter this class at only 6th level. Assuming you want to keep this open to a straigh Cleric with Trickery there are a few things I think need to be done to get any balance: Spellcasting: You need to give up some caster levels. I'd say at least three including first level. You text is either misleading or something else is wrong because the table shows full casting. Poison Use: Drop this. The classes that get this ability also have an "evil" prereq which this doesn't so it isn't appropriate. Lucky Magic: To complicated. If replaced in stead of removed I'd suggest you grant a DC to spells cast against a sneak attack eligable target. Escape: Usable far too often. This should be a once per day ability otherwise it will lose any "escape" aspect it should have if it can be used for too many things.
AllWillFall2Me 12-19-07, 01:53 AM	The first thing that needs to be addressed is spellcasting. With full, this is overpowered. With the text's assertion of advancement, it looks much more even. As to Steven's points, I see no need to drop Poison Use. I don't believe his assertion of constant evil is correct, I seem to recall several "non-good" classes obtaining it, it could be myself that is mistaken. I wouldn't call Lucky Magic too complicated, but it is a bit weird. It would be simpler to allow a reroll of the lowest die . The problem I see with Escape is you're adding MAD to the Cleric. This is also shown by Sacred Stealth, and of course the entire concept of a Thief-Priest. Clerics rely on Wis, Con, and Cha. Rogues focus on Dex, Int, and Cha. So your efforts to force The Blessed Thief to be Dex dependent, I think, cloud the waters a little. I feel they match the flavor really well, they just seem strange. You have several grammatical and structure flaws, but over all it could be understood.
Liquidska 12-19-07, 12:22 PM	Using poision in of itself isn't evil, it's not quite paladin type behavoir but there is nothing evil about it. Esspecially if the charcter restricts themselves to sleeping and knock out poisions. I lifted lucky magic from the Luck Stealer from Race of the Wild, I don't think its to terribly complicated, but for simplicity maybe the lowest roll would be better. Wouldn't be as powerful then either. As far as escape goes, It was somewhat my intention to spread out the abilites. I figuired that basing it per use on wisdom would give to much, I wanted a score taht would make sense logically but not give 7 uses per day. Maybe I will change it to once per day. If at all possible, I would like to keep the spellcasting intact at one per level. What would you suggest dropping? Loose Uncanny dodge and Sneak attack?
sigma999 12-21-07, 07:46 PM	At least from a personal viewpoint, it's something that's neither well-desired nor lacking in D&D. As you summed, there are other PrCs that do the same. Prestiges classes that combine the features of 2 other classes are a worth a peso each. CharOp eats em up. However, it's not very niche-oriented. Players will glance at this, then at one of the other barrelfulls of rogue/clerics, and proceed to abuse the f out of their 'build'. If it doesn't reek of POWER and WIN, they will scrap a class like it's nothing. That's one side of the audience. One the other, there are gamers that love a good background to their characters. These people will stay up all night, show up late for exams, because they were writing their character history. They love a class with an inherent association to a place, a time, a function, a specific role that no one else can fill. That's the other population. There's many in between but they are less vocal or written about their likings. They lurk, they glimpse, and they move on. The ever-climbing post counts on our threads attest to this. They are looking for the next "Naruto ninja" or "Bleach samurai" or whatever activates the instinctive weeaboo region of their cerebellum. So consider who you're creating the class for and adjust accordingly, cuz (and not to seem rude) from what I see, it just doesn't stand out. It's like the Mystic Theurge, but much less powerful. Design is not a science, so if you take the best of Clerics/Rogues/whatever other similar PrCs and throw it together, there's no guarantee it will be balanced. But still keep the objective in mind "what does this class do?" and if no other class out there does even similar, you'll know you have something original and new.