Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DireHuman 10-05-07, 10:01 PM	The Caravan Lasher In the harsh wilderness, surrounded by hostile tribes and dangerous animals, the drivers of caravans have to be ready for anything and everything. The various guilds and teamsters that call the open road their home have thus taught their caravan leaders to fight off these hazards using what is often the only thing at hand: their whip. Hit Die: d8 Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1st +1 +0 +2 +0 Whip Mastery, Third Hand 2nd +2 +0 +3 +0 Caravan Lasher Feat 3rd +3 +1 +3 +1 Whip Sneak Attack +1d6 4th +4 +1 +4 +1 Caravan Lasher Feat 5th +5 +1 +4 +1 Whip Sneak Attack +2d6 6th +6 +2 +5 +2 Caravan Lasher Feat 7th +7 +2 +5 +2 Whip Sneak Attack +3d6 8th +8 +2 +6 +2 Caravan Lasher Feat 9th +9 +3 +6 +3 Whip Sneak Attack +4d6 10th +10 +3 +7 +3 Caravan Lasher Feat, What Comes to Hand Requirements To qualify to become a Caravan Lasher, a character must fulfill all the following criteria. Base Attack Bonus: +5. Skills: Use Rope 2 Ranks, Craft(leatherworking) 2 Ranks Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Whip), Weapon Focus (Whip), and any of the following: Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Deflect Arrows, or Quick Draw Special: Must be a member of the Intracontinental Brotherhood of Teamsters or a similar organization Class Skills The Caravan Lasher’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Spot (Wis), and Use Rope (Dex). Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier. Class Features Weapon and Armor Proficiency A Caravan Lasher's weapon training focuses on the whip. Caravan Lashers gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor. Whip Mastery At 1st level, a Caravan Lasher can attack an opponent in a threatened square with a whip, whip dagger, or improvised whip dagger and nor provoke an attack of opportunity. A Caravan Lasher can also make attacks of opportunity with his whip, whip dagger, or improvised whip dagger against foes within 5 feet as if it were a melee weapon. In addition, a Caravan Lasher can use a normal whip to deal regular damage to an opponent, instead of nonlethal damage, at her option. This allows the Caravan Lasher to inflict damage on creatures with an armor bonus of +1 or better or a natural armor bonus of +3 or better. If using the whip to deal nonlethal damage, it deals no damage to creatures with a +1 or more armor bonus or +3 or more natural armor (as usual). Caravan Lashers using a whip dagger or improvised whip dagger always deal regular damage to opponent. Third Hand At 1st level, a Caravan Lasher's precision with the whip, whip dagger, or improvised whip dagger allows her to use it almost like a third hand- a third hand at the end of a flexible 15-foot-long arm- as a standard action. Depositing a lashed object into your hand is a move-equivalent action. Note: A Caravan Lasher generally uses a normal whip to perform abilities granted by Third Hand, because a whip dagger or improvised whip dagger deals its damage to the object or individual grasped, while a regular whip does not. Sometimes, this is not a problem, especially if the item grasped has hardness, but other times inflicting damage by using Third Hand is a bad idea. Thus, most Caravan Lashers carry two whips. A Caravan Lasher successfully performs a task if her attack roll equals or exceeds the DC for a given task: Punch a button, snuff a candle flame, flick a coin lying along the ground, etc. as a move action. Range 15 feet, DC 15. Retrieve an unattended object of up to 20lbs, and deposit it into your off hand as a move action. Range 15 feet, DC 20. Firmly wrap the end of your whip around a pole, spike, or other likely projection up to 15 feet away as a move action. The DC is 22. If used to wrap around a projection at the top of a wall, reduce the DC to climb the wall by 5. If the point of attachment is optimal on a ceiling fixture, you could swing over a chasm of up to 25 feet wide. You can also wrap items heavier than 20lbs, but you cannot automatically flick them into your off hand (but you could drag them). You can unwrap the end of your whip from the entangled object as a free action. When the victim of a precipitous fall, you can give up your Reflex save in an attempt to use your whip to snag a likely projection, pillar, rafter, etc. within 15 feet of the edge of the pit, cliff, bridge, etc. Generally, an unattached item (such as a statue, table, etc.) must weigh twice as much as you for you to arrest your fall, otherwise you merely pull it after you. You may attempt to snag a friend or foe standing near the edge of the precipice as you fall. You make a ranged touch attack against another creature's AC (the friend does not apply his Dexterity bonus, while an unwilling friend or a foe applies their Dexterity modifier to AC). If you hit, you wrap your whip around the target, who must make a successful Strength check against DC 20 to arrest both you and himself. An unsuccessful Strength check sends both you and your target into the precipice. You can unwrap the end of your whip from the entangled object as a free action. Bonus Feat At 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, and 10th level, a Caravan Lasher may choose a bonus feat from the list of feats noted as Caravan Lasher bonus feats. This is in addition to the feats that a character of any class normally gets from advancing levels. The character must still meet any prerequisites for these bonus feats. Whip Sneak Attack If a Caravan Lasher catches an opponent unable to defend himself effectively from her attack anywhere within range (up to 15 ft.), she can use a whip, whip dagger, or improvised whip dagger to strike a vital spot for extra damage (a Caravan Lasher does not gain a sneak attack with any other weapons). Any time the Caravan Lasher's target would be denied his Dexterity bonus to AC (whether he actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), the Caravan Lasher's attack deals +1d6 points of damage. This extra damage increases by a +1d6 every other level (+2d6 at 5th level, +3d6 at 7th level, and +4d6 at 9th level). Should the Caravan Lasher score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. This ability stacks with any other sneak attack ability. With a regular whip (but not a whip dagger or improvised whip dagger), the Caravan Lasher can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of normal damage (see Whip Mastery above). A Caravan Lasher can only sneak attack living creatures with discernible anatomies- undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Additionally, any creature immune to critical hits is similarly immune to sneak attacks. Also, the Caravan Lasher must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach a vital spot. A Caravan Lasher cannot sneak attack while striking at a creature with concealment or by striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach. If a Caravan Lasher gets a general sneak attack bonus from another source (such as Rogue levels), the bonuses to damage stack. What Comes to Hand At 10th level, the Caravan Lasher may use any rope or rope-like object of at least 15 feet of length as an impromptu whip. Any action performed with this object must be preceded by a DC 15 Use Rope check, plus an additional DC of 5 for every 5 feet the object extends. Caravan Lasher Feats Firm Grip [Caravan Lasher] Your mastery of the whip enables you keep an opponent down. Prerequisites: Improved Trip, Third Hand class ability Benefit: On a successful trip attempt using your whip, whip dagger, or improvised whip dagger you may use your Third Hand ability to establish a Firm Grip on the target. If the target attempts to stand up from a prone position while under your Firm Grip, you may use up an Attack of Opportunity for that round to make a trip attempt with your whip without having to make a successful ranged touch attack. While keeping a Firm Grip, you are considered Flat-Footed and cannot leave the area around the target that the whip can reach. If you are keeping a Firm Grip with a whip dagger or improvised whip dagger, you may deal the weapon's damage to the target as a Standard Action on your turn without making an attack roll, but not any damage from sneak attack or a similar effect. If the target succeeds against a trip attempt provoked in this way after you have established the Firm Grip, the Firm Grip ends. You may voluntarily end the Firm Grip by taking a move-equivalent action to disengage the whip from the target, or as an immediate action by dropping the whip. Special: A Caravan Lasher may select Firm Grip as one of his Caravan Lasher bonus feats. Whip Drag [Caravan Lasher] You can drag a prone opponent across the ground with your whip. Prerequisites: Improved Trip, Third Hand class ability, Firm Grip Benefit: If you have a Firm Grip on a target, as the Firm Grip ability, you may pull the target 5 feet directly towards you as a Standard Action with a Strength Check DC of 15. The DC increases by 5 for every size category the target exceeds your own, and decreases by 5 for every size category the target is below your own. Special: A Caravan Lasher may select Whip Drag as one of his Caravan Lasher bonus feats. Disarming Snatch [Caravan Lasher] Your mastery of the whip enables you steal your opponent's weapon. Prerequisites: Improved Disarm, Third Hand class ability Benefit: On a successful disarm attempt with your whip, you may use your Third Hand ability to deposit the disarmed object into your free hand as a move action. Normal: A successful disarm attempt causes the disarmed object to fall in the original owner's space. Special: A Caravan Lasher may select Disarming Snatch as one of his Caravan Lasher bonus feats. Forced Strike [Caravan Lasher] You can force an opponent to attack an adjacent target as you disarm him. Prerequisites: Improved Disarm, Third Hand class ability, Disarming Snatch Benefit: On a successful disarm attempt in which you use your Disarming Snatch ability, you may use your Third Hand ability to force the target to attack any creature he threatens at his highest base attack bonus before disarming him, as a free action. Special: A Caravan Lasher may select Forced Strike as one of his Caravan Lasher bonus feats. Quick Snatch [Caravan Lasher] You can use your whip to quickly pick up objects. Prerequisites: Quick Draw, Third Hand class ability Benefit: You can now use your Third Hand ability to retrieve an unattended object of up to 20lbs and deposit it into your free hand as a swift action. Normal: A Caravan Lasher can deposit a lashed object into her free hand is a move-equivalent action. Special: A Caravan Lasher may select Quick Snatch as one of his Caravan Lasher bonus feats. Whip Improvisation [Caravan Lasher] You can turn any object you can pick up into an improvised whip dagger. Prerequisites: Quick Draw, Third Hand class ability, Quick Snatch Benefit: When you use your Third Hand ability to grasp an object of up to 2lbs, you may use a move action to turn your whip into an improvised whip dagger. The name is somewhat of a misnomer: an improvised whip dagger deals damage based on the object the whip has retrieved. For example, an improvised whip dagger created using a smooth stone deals bludgeoning damage, while an improvised whip dagger with a short sword deals piercing damage. Regardless of type, an improvised whip dagger deals 1d6 damage, has a range of 15 feet, and provokes a critical hit on 19-20/x2. You may drop the improvised whip dagger's grasped object as a move action, turning it back into an ordinary whip. If you are disarmed or the improvised whip dagger otherwise leaves your hand, the grasped object falls into your space. Special: A Caravan Lasher may select Whip Improvisation as one of his Caravan Lasher bonus feats. Whip Deflection [Caravan Lasher] You can deflect any projectile that comes within your whip's range. Prerequisites: Deflect Arrows, Third Hand class ability Benefit: You may use your Third Hand ability with a DC of 17 to apply your Deflect Arrows feat anywhere within your whip, whip dagger, or improvised whip dagger's full range. Special: A Caravan Lasher may select Whip Deflection as one of his Caravan Lasher bonus feats. Whip Snatch [Caravan Lasher] You can snatch any projectile that comes within your whip's range. Prerequisites: Deflect Arrows, Third Hand class ability, Whip Deflection Benefit: You may use your Third Hand ability with a DC of 20 to apply your Snatch Arrows feat anywhere within your whip's full range. Unlike using Snatch Arrows with a free hand, however, you may not take an immediate action to send throwing weapons back. Special: A Caravan Lasher may select Whip Snatch as one of his Caravan Lasher bonus feats.
war_thog 10-06-07, 12:21 AM	So this is a pointless PrC. The Lasher already exists. Does roughly the same things *and other better stuff* Except this one is "caravan themed"
nevered 10-07-07, 03:03 PM	A little intro: Dire Human is the DM of the campaign we're playing, and I am the player who is using this class as his character. The way I create characters is to think up some really cool idea, and then try to find some way to do this using the game rules. When I conceived of this character, the general idea was "Wouldn't it be cool if this guy could throw a dagger into one person's face, and then grab the dagger and stab someone with it using his whip?" I looked through the books, and found the lasher class: the only PrC that specialized in whips, but was disappointed to find that the class had none of what i wanted: the class is mostly about stunning people. so, I wrote up a redesign: i decided to make the class versatile enough to do what I wanted, and still be used by other people to do what they wanted: the feat selection system we designed allows people to take the character in many different directions, including the grabbing arrows out of midair and grabbing sharp things with a whip to hit people with. This class is also a great deal more powerful than the original lasher, who i found to be very lacking in that respect. the "caravan" part comes from the world that DireHuman created: a large continent that consists of large cities separated by vast expanses of wilderness. trade is done mostly via merchant caravans, as a convenient quest hook that breaks the mold of the cliche "dark stranger in a tavern" quest hook. When DH asked why exactly my character used a whip, I said that the character made a living as the wagon driver handling the animals in the caravan. While the caravans have hired mercenaries to protect them, my character is occasionally forced to defend himself with whatever comes to hand: his whip. DH took my character's personal motivations and made it the flavor theme of the PrC To sum up: yes, there is already a whip-based PrC. This is a revamp of the class that is more powerful and more versatile please critique on the playability of the class.
war_thog 10-08-07, 03:05 AM	Alright a critique of what this guy does..... Whip deflect/snatch are just a little on the inconceivable side of life. Lots of stuff in D's makes no sense what so ever. But these go beyond that. How does it work? Like normal deflect arrows except you can do it to anything within 15ft reach? Then you make your check. Alright. This however is power that not even epic characters get. A Colossal creature with deflect arrows can't do anything like this. It can't deflect for others inside its reach. And just thinking of how this works makes my brain hurt. Arrows move faster than whips. You aren't going to be able to draw your whip and attack with it in time to catch an arrow in flight. Now it says you use 3rd hand, a standard action to be able to do this. How long does it last for? Deflect arrows is a free action. The way it looks, we use a standard action to deflect any attack in our reach. Now does this mean we are readying for it? Deflect can only be used once per turn too. So we are giving up a standard action to gain reach deflect arrows for what appears to be infinity. Or is it just 1 round? If its infinity, then it should just be passive, not something you wake up and activate in the morning. Thats just silly. If its 1 use = 1 round then its stupidly crap. Giving up a full round to deflect 1 arrow? Considering that at lvl 2 rangers are firing off 2 arrows per turn, and there are ways to get 10+ arrows per turn, using your full action to deflect 1 arrow sucks. And snatch arrows. What the hell is the point of snatch arrows if you can't fling it back? Yay I keep his dagger. This is only useful if youre fighting a throwing weapon specialist who uses returning weapons. So basically we have an ability that removes returning from our opponents weapons. Needs a feat, and a special power. Yay. Super power! Again its cool flavour, stealing that dagger out of the air! But it sucks mechanincally *and is hard to conceive* Turning any normal whip into a whip dagger.... yeah cool fluff wise. Pretty pointless normality wise. It's a very underpowered ability. You're going to have a whip dagger anyway. And the odd occasion that you don't.... well you deal normal damage with your whip anyway so its hardly crucial. You do increase a normal whips damage from 1d3 to 1d6. However consider that youll have a whip dagger on you regardless, this is nothing special. Use a full round action to increase your backup weapons damage by 0-3? Not so great. Only 1.5 average. Almost entirely useless in combat, using that full round to attack is much better. Outside, ok. But in a situation where your whip daggers been taken from you will likely involve losing the whip too. Now sure you can combine your level 10 ability with this so taht if you get robbed of everything except your mug and rope then you can make a whip dagger. But this ability is so specialised that its almost pointless. Very underpowered vs the other "caravan whip feats" This I can conceive, more so than the previous thing. On the topic of the ultimate. Its cool flavour wise. Everythings a whip in your hands *and even a whip dagger!* We can be Jackie Chan! Go team rope and horshoe rope dart! :) Ah Shanghai Noon. However power wise? Terrible for the capstone of a 10 level prestige class. Unless you're DM is robbing you every session you're almost never going to use it. However.... It says that you can use any rope object of at least 15ft in length. Does this mean we can get a 50ft whip? *assuming we can beat a use rope DC of 50* On a normal character this is ridiculous. This of course matters not for the rules. Weapon size is not relevant to reach. Whips are reach weapons effectively giving triple reach. Unless you're changing it so that we can get a medium character walking around with ridiculous reach. Which at lvl 15 is not so hard to manage. Take 18 ranks, + 2 for silk rope, +5 dex and we have auto pass 25ft. Any feats, items and take 10 on the roll and we can easily break into the realms of 50ft and beyond. Suddenly the worlds crappest ability becomes stupidly overpowered. Why even carry a whip with you? Throw it out, you don't need it! You have a length of rope! 50ft+ reach for a whip is way too good. You can trip, disarm, attack at that range better than an archer can. Alright next Firm grip...... After you trip *an attack action* we use a standard action to hold them. So you can't actually do it in your turn. We wait until its our next turn and hope they havent stood up. So what it does is allow us to make AoO's at range with our whip against 1 specific opponent who attempts to stand up. I think you're intending to create a trip loop but it doesnt work. AoO's happen before the intended action takes place. Thus a person with a scythe can't trip someone who is attempting to stand. They are already on the ground, you can't fall prone from a prone position. Same thing with this ability. So what we are doing, is using an attack and a standard action to render ourselves flat footed so that we can attempt to watch an opponent stand up as our whip doesnt actually do anything. Another point why this doesnt work. You are flat footed doing it. Flat footed people cannot make AoO's. So we can't make an AoO at all to attempt to trip our opponent who cant be tripped. Then we have the drag ability. It's clear the intent is to drag people on the ground towards you. Kinda cool. Also kinda useless. As already noted Firm grip doesnt actually work. However lets assume it does or we cant critique this ability. We keep them on the ground...... and drag them towards us. Why the crap are we doing this? We have a whip. We like range. Thats the whole point of it. We are using our standard action to move an enemy by 5ft. And only towards us. Great! So when they do manage to stand up, they don't have to move next to us to hit us. Alright. Awesome. And again. We are wasting our actions. A standard action to move an opponent by 5ft while we remain flat footed? 1v1 this is not such a big deal *except that the ability keeping them down doesnt work* However waht about every other guy on the battlefield. You are taking yourself out of the picture to do sweet **** all while rogues get free sneaks on you and your AC hits the floor. And again we cant make AoO's because we are flat footed. We now have the whip disarm power. Stolen straight from v3's Lasher. Not changed at all, excpept that Lashers get it for free and get Disarm for free. Then we have the upgrade of that. Forced Strike. Quite a cool ability. The only one that actually works as it's a free action to do. It shouldnt be using the enemies attack roll though. They arent doing it. You are. If anything theyd resist you and youd get a negative. It should definitely be your attack roll though. And with concession for weapon size. It'd be easier to do this to a dagger than a greatsword. It cant physically work in all situations though. Say we have titan, who youve disarmed of his dagger. you then use his weapon to attack someone 30ft behind him. Rules wise theres no flaws here. Common sense wise its ridiculous. You would never physically be able to do this, ever. I know D's is a bit low on the realism, but at least its usually closeish. This is way too far fetched. Alright and now we have quick snatch. Cool ability. Grab stuff as a swift action. No problems here. Lets you use snatch weapon in a full attack action. Probably the only ability thats got nothing wrong with it. Whip sneak attack....... giving them +1d6 more than the normal Lasher. Dont see any reason for it but well, +1d6 isnt going to break anything. However looking at the many apparent flaws in the class theres a lot of work to do. I think I know what you guys intended to do, but you didnt pull it off rules wise. Then we look at power. I'd say these are a lot weaker than the Lasher. Less versatile too. Lashers cant attack people with their own weapons and get 1d6 less sneak. However they kick ass in all other ways. Free disarm, free trip, easier requirements to get in, more attacks, abilities that dont waste your full action to do, stun, helpless at top *I <3 Coup De Grace*. However your ultimate power is massively unbalanced and game breaking. At lvl 9, the Lasher is crapping all over this guy as this guys powers really are sub optimal. However the 10th level of your caravan man is ridiculous if it really does allow you to get reach = use Rope DC you can beat. If it doesnt, then the Lasher continues to beat you up. Hell even if it does, the lashers ultimate owns. Reflex DC = atk roll or be stunned, then Fort DC18 or helpless? At all in range. Ownage. Its abilities at face value are more versatile. But then you realise they are crapola and not worth doing, and we become much less versatile than the already versatile Lasher. And definetely less powerful. However there is 1 point I would like to raise, and its a flaw with the v3 Lasher man. The 15ft thing. This is only relevant if youre a small or medium char with a whip. Larger or smaller people arent going to have the same reach. A colossal character has 30ft reach. Are you trying to tell me that a titan with a whip and levels in this class can only use his Third Hand power at 15ft? You should rewrite it to be "range = your reach with a whip" so that rules wise creatures of larger size are actually able to use it. I think that just about sums it up. Why am I interested in this at all? The next character I want to play would be a Lasher man. With a few tweaks to fix up the v3 flaws.
DireHuman 10-08-07, 04:32 PM	:) Thank you. Most of the reason I posted this here was to figure out where it's weak and where it's broken, and that actually may have sort of kinda helped. I'm going to take a few days to mess with it and see if I can't get it in line, but bear in mind that these feats were meant to be combined and be greater than the sum of their parts. All of the Snatch feats (Quick Snatch, Disarming Snatch, and Whip Snatch) can be coupled to Whip Improvisation (which is getting a boost), Disarming Snatch and Quick Snatch enable you to nab that nasty +5 longsword from the Fighter, and I'm trying to get Firm Grip to play nice with Trip and AoO rules (which, you pointed out, it still doesn't). Oh, and using a Caravan Lasher feat isn't necessarily a Standard Action; the "you may use your Third Hand ability to" bit is just to let you know that Quick Snatch and Whip Improvisation can augment them. Thanks, though.
nevered 10-08-07, 06:26 PM	Whip deflect/snatch are just a little on the inconceivable side of life. Lots of stuff in D's makes no sense what so ever. But these go beyond that. How does it work? Like normal deflect arrows except you can do it to anything within 15ft reach? Then you make your check. Alright. This however is power that not even epic characters get. A Colossal creature with deflect arrows can't do anything like this. It can't deflect for others inside its reach. And just thinking of how this works makes my brain hurt. Arrows move faster than whips. You aren't going to be able to draw your whip and attack with it in time to catch an arrow in flight. Now it says you use 3rd hand, a standard action to be able to do this. How long does it last for? Deflect arrows is a free action. The way it looks, we use a standard action to deflect any attack in our reach. Now does this mean we are readying for it? Deflect can only be used once per turn too. So we are giving up a standard action to gain reach deflect arrows for what appears to be infinity. Or is it just 1 round? If its infinity, then it should just be passive, not something you wake up and activate in the morning. Thats just silly. If its 1 use = 1 round then its stupidly crap. Giving up a full round to deflect 1 arrow? Considering that at lvl 2 rangers are firing off 2 arrows per turn, and there are ways to get 10+ arrows per turn, using your full action to deflect 1 arrow sucks. And snatch arrows. What the hell is the point of snatch arrows if you can't fling it back? Yay I keep his dagger. This is only useful if youre fighting a throwing weapon specialist who uses returning weapons. So basically we have an ability that removes returning from our opponents weapons. Needs a feat, and a special power. Yay. Super power! Again its cool flavour, stealing that dagger out of the air! But it sucks mechanincally *and is hard to conceive* here's how it's intended to work in combat: if you have a whip armed, and an opponent fires an arrow that passes within your reach, you may choose to knock it out of the air (the way the 'deflect arrows' feat works, except you're doing it with a whip) you can only use this once per round (so you can't deflect thirty arrows at the same time) the 'whip snatch arrows' feat extends on this: instead of knocking it out of the air, you actually grab it with your whip and bring it back to your hand. Turning any normal whip into a whip dagger.... yeah cool fluff wise. Pretty pointless normality wise. It's a very underpowered ability. You're going to have a whip dagger anyway. And the odd occasion that you don't.... well you deal normal damage with your whip anyway so its hardly crucial. You do increase a normal whips damage from 1d3 to 1d6. However consider that youll have a whip dagger on you regardless, this is nothing special. Use a full round action to increase your backup weapons damage by 0-3? Not so great. Only 1.5 average. Almost entirely useless in combat, using that full round to attack is much better. Outside, ok. But in a situation where your whip daggers been taken from you will likely involve losing the whip too. Now sure you can combine your level 10 ability with this so taht if you get robbed of everything except your mug and rope then you can make a whip dagger. But this ability is so specialised that its almost pointless. Very underpowered vs the other "caravan whip feats" This I can conceive, more so than the previous thing. I intended this to be a little more varied depending on what you pick up with it: whatever bonuses the target weapon has are transferred to your improvised version. are your enemies shooting poison arrows at you? well, grab that sucker out of the air and stab them with it! did you pick up a dagger of +1 vs. undead somewhere? sounds like the perfect thing to wrap your whip around On the topic of the ultimate. Its cool flavour wise. Everythings a whip in your hands *and even a whip dagger!* We can be Jackie Chan! Go team rope and horshoe rope dart! :) Ah Shanghai Noon. However power wise? Terrible for the capstone of a 10 level prestige class. Unless you're DM is robbing you every session you're almost never going to use it. However.... It says that you can use any rope object of at least 15ft in length. Does this mean we can get a 50ft whip? *assuming we can beat a use rope DC of 50* On a normal character this is ridiculous. This of course matters not for the rules. Weapon size is not relevant to reach. Whips are reach weapons effectively giving triple reach. Unless you're changing it so that we can get a medium character walking around with ridiculous reach. Which at lvl 15 is not so hard to manage. Take 18 ranks, + 2 for silk rope, +5 dex and we have auto pass 25ft. Any feats, items and take 10 on the roll and we can easily break into the realms of 50ft and beyond. Suddenly the worlds crappest ability becomes stupidly overpowered. Why even carry a whip with you? Throw it out, you don't need it! You have a length of rope! 50ft+ reach for a whip is way too good. You can trip, disarm, attack at that range better than an archer can. yes, the intention was that a lvl 10 lasher (min. lvl 15 char) could pick up a 20 or 30 ft. rope and use it as a whip (with 20 or 30 ft. reach) on a successful use rope check. I will admit, though that I severely underestimated the DC of the check necessary. as far as it being the capstone to a 10 lvl prestige class: the class has 4 pairs of feats, but only 5 slots to put them in. A lasher could specialize in two branches (the 'disarm' and 'trip' branches, for example) while another could specialize in the other two ('anti-range' and 'improvisation') I wanted the 10th level bonus prize to be something that would help both of those characters. it seems to me that increasing the range is the best option. first instinct is to double the DC, but if you have a different suggestion, I'd be glad to hear it. oh, another thing: in order to use this, you have to be a level 15 character, minimum. what spells are the lvl 15 wizards casting at this level? what damage is the lvl 15 barbarian doing at this level? the caravan lasher is made for battlefield control, plain and simple. it does very little damage, but it's made for support. personally, I don't think doubling the range (or more, if you can) at this level is game breaking. Alright next Firm grip...... After you trip *an attack action* we use a standard action to hold them. So you can't actually do it in your turn. We wait until its our next turn and hope they havent stood up. So what it does is allow us to make AoO's at range with our whip against 1 specific opponent who attempts to stand up. I think you're intending to create a trip loop but it doesnt work. AoO's happen before the intended action takes place. Thus a person with a scythe can't trip someone who is attempting to stand. They are already on the ground, you can't fall prone from a prone position. Same thing with this ability. So what we are doing, is using an attack and a standard action to render ourselves flat footed so that we can attempt to watch an opponent stand up as our whip doesnt actually do anything. Another point why this doesnt work. You are flat footed doing it. Flat footed people cannot make AoO's. So we can't make an AoO at all to attempt to trip our opponent who cant be tripped. I think we worded it badly. the intention was basically this: if you trip someone with your whip (say, wrap it around a leg and pull them over), the whip would automatically pull free and play would continue. this feat would allow you to keep the whip attacked to the opponent (in a "firm grip") any time the target attempts to rise from the prone position, it automatically triggers the opposed strength checks that are part of the normal trip routine. if they fail, they remain prone. note that all of this would happen on their turn, and your may still take actions on your next turn. however, doing this should leave you vulnerable. after all, if you're busy pulling the legs out from under a helpless orc, you're not really in a position to dodge incoming blows, are you? so we added the 'flat-footed' (so that your dex bonus is no longer added to your AC) Is there a better way to word the feat to get it to do what we want? Then we have the drag ability. It's clear the intent is to drag people on the ground towards you. Kinda cool. Also kinda useless. As already noted Firm grip doesnt actually work. However lets assume it does or we cant critique this ability. We keep them on the ground...... and drag them towards us. Why the crap are we doing this? We have a whip. We like range. Thats the whole point of it. We are using our standard action to move an enemy by 5ft. And only towards us. Great! So when they do manage to stand up, they don't have to move next to us to hit us. Alright. Awesome. And again. We are wasting our actions. A standard action to move an opponent by 5ft while we remain flat footed? 1v1 this is not such a big deal *except that the ability keeping them down doesnt work* However waht about every other guy on the battlefield. You are taking yourself out of the picture to do sweet **** all while rogues get free sneaks on you and your AC hits the floor. And again we cant make AoO's because we are flat footed. Since the entire class is pretty much a support character in any party, the intention was that you would be able to grab an enemy and drag him into the easy reach of the damage-dealing elements of the party (the waiting hands of a barbarian, for example), as well as removing him from his allies. dragging an enemy into a square where he is flanked by your allies, prone (because you're holding him down), and out of the range of his healers is a quick and easy kill for the good guys. also: traps. We now have the whip disarm power. Stolen straight from v3's Lasher. Not changed at all, excpept that Lashers get it for free and get Disarm for free. pretty much. (although the revised lasher pretty much gets them for free. it's just that instead of a prepackaged skill at a specific level, he gets a choice of abilities. they're called 'feats' because the feat selection was the closest available mechanic for what we were trying to do with this.) Then we have the upgrade of that. Forced Strike. Quite a cool ability. The only one that actually works as it's a free action to do. It shouldnt be using the enemies attack roll though. They arent doing it. You are. If anything theyd resist you and youd get a negative. It should definitely be your attack roll though. And with concession for weapon size. It'd be easier to do this to a dagger than a greatsword. It cant physically work in all situations though. Say we have titan, who youve disarmed of his dagger. you then use his weapon to attack someone 30ft behind him. Rules wise theres no flaws here. Common sense wise its ridiculous. You would never physically be able to do this, ever. I know D's is a bit low on the realism, but at least its usually closeish. This is way too far fetched. Alright and now we have quick snatch. Cool ability. Grab stuff as a swift action. No problems here. Lets you use snatch weapon in a full attack action. Probably the only ability thats got nothing wrong with it. Thank you. Whip sneak attack....... giving them +1d6 more than the normal Lasher. Dont see any reason for it but well, +1d6 isnt going to break anything. However looking at the many apparent flaws in the class theres a lot of work to do. I think I know what you guys intended to do, but you didnt pull it off rules wise. Then we look at power. I'd say these are a lot weaker than the Lasher. Less versatile too. Lashers cant attack people with their own weapons and get 1d6 less sneak. However they kick ass in all other ways. Free disarm, free trip, easier requirements to get in, more attacks, abilities that dont waste your full action to do, stun, helpless at top *I <3 Coup De Grace*. However your ultimate power is massively unbalanced and game breaking. At lvl 9, the Lasher is crapping all over this guy as this guys powers really are sub optimal. However the 10th level of your caravan man is ridiculous if it really does allow you to get reach = use Rope DC you can beat. If it doesnt, then the Lasher continues to beat you up. Hell even if it does, the lashers ultimate owns. Reflex DC = atk roll or be stunned, then Fort DC18 or helpless? At all in range. Ownage. Its abilities at face value are more versatile. But then you realise they are crapola and not worth doing, and we become much less versatile than the already versatile Lasher. And definetely less powerful. However there is 1 point I would like to raise, and its a flaw with the v3 Lasher man. The 15ft thing. This is only relevant if youre a small or medium char with a whip. Larger or smaller people arent going to have the same reach. A colossal character has 30ft reach. Are you trying to tell me that a titan with a whip and levels in this class can only use his Third Hand power at 15ft? You should rewrite it to be "range = your reach with a whip" so that rules wise creatures of larger size are actually able to use it. I think that just about sums it up. Why am I interested in this at all? The next character I want to play would be a Lasher man. With a few tweaks to fix up the v3 flaws. The Caravan Lasher is meant to be a supporting character, first and foremost. it deals almost no damage (except as far as the sneak attack goes), but the deflecting arrows branch and disarming branch are meant to neutralize enemy attack, while the tripping branch of the class is meant to disable single enemies entirely, and the improvisation branch of the class is meant to make you better in specific, specialized areas of the battle. We call it 'versatile' because while no character can excel in all the branches of the class, players are free to specialize in the areas of the class that interest them. Thank you very much for your comments. We're always open to suggestions for rewording some of the things that we may have messed up a bit, but I hope that we gave you the sense of what we want to do with this character, so that you can help us make it work.
war_thog 10-08-07, 07:53 PM	He is a support hero, this is clear. So is the lasher though. He's a fighter/rogue multiclass using the whip which is not your get into melee and start smashing weapon choice. Basically I think that the whip drag needs to go. Pulling someone 5ft towards you? Takes your whole round, DC 15 +/- stuff for the check? And you have to trip them first and hope they dont get up? Charcters can take a 5ft step as a free action. Bull Rush is an easier check to pass and it moves them a lot more. Takes less time too. Its a really really sub optimal choice of what you can do in combat. Tripping someone else, disarming your foe, hell just hitting them are all way better options. Even if its your party vs 1 guy. They are still better. However if its you vs 1, well hes going to either be super powered and own you. Or you're going to gangbash the hell out of him anyway. You are more effective fighting normally. Your party wont need this kind of support. Same goes for the firm grip idea of keeping them down. Unless you're 1v1 you can do better stuff withy our turn. And even if youa re 1v1, a full attack is probably going to be more useful. Its idea is fine, keep them down. But using your turn and being flat footed to do it is way way way underpowered. Personally I'd make it so that you can't attack with your whip while doing this and arent flat footed. Least it gives you some viable combat options. Though keeping 1 person down vs tripping others and disarming others is not a good choice most of the time. On a note for balance.... This character should not be compared to a Wizard or Cleric of equal level. That isnt how you balance power. In the PHB at this level mages are overpowered, Fighters underpowered. However your intent is to make a semi skill full combat support class. So judge his abilities vs other people who do this. Not vs wizards. To fix up the wording..... Remove the "Use 3rd Hand ability" from almost every single one of your skills. Unless you intend it to take an action. For Firm Grip it should read something like this..... If you trip someone you may establish a grip as a free action *lose whatever actions you want, wahtever, etc* People who have been gripped must pass a Strength/Dex check to stand up opposed by your trip attempt. If they fail they remain prone. If they pass, tehy stand and firm grip is ended. To make Drag better........... Make it work like bull rush. Opposed strength checks modified by size, etc. They go 5ft + 5ft per 5 you win by, if you fail, firm grip is lost. Or something like that. Doubling the Ult DC would moderate its ridiculosity a bit. A character like this doesnt deal no damage either. Youve got full BaB + trip so youre going to hit what you want to hit. 1d6+str is under par damage, I admit. However you can 2 hand a whip as its a 1 hand weapon and bust out Some PA. Or just 1 hand it. Theres more damage. Weapon augments go well too, more damage. Youre more fighty than a rogue, less sneak attacky. however you do have reasonable SA. Youll deal more damage than a rogue vs opponents who arent flat footed, and deal more than a fighter vs those who are. Wanting it to be a support character by giving it powers that waste its actions and force it to not fight is not a way to acheive this goal. Playing this guy I would never ever get firm grip if it took your turn to do. You need to completely rethink how that works. If you want to let improvised whip ness add bonuses equal to your enemies magic weapons, then thats crazy awesome. Way unbalanced compared to the other abilities that they get. If youre going to give variable "feat" choices, then making some better than others is not good. People will get the good ones, not the crap ones. As is its reasonably crap. If you gave it the magic weapon bonuses then it is king of the castle compared to most of their powers. The original Lasher is a support class as well. Stun is an awesome support power. Lots of attacks for lots of trips and disarms is awesome support. Ranged deflect arrows is not. Its not physically feasible and still ends up doing nothing. If your friend is really going to be saved by you stopping 1 arrow hitting him, then hes probably going to die anyway. Deflecting to save your mates is a cool idea. But how could you do it if they were standing in front of you? Do you need line of effect? Youd have to jsut stop the first attack in every round. Regardless of whether it would hit or not, you dont know your mates AC, your deflecting it before he blocks/dodges/armours it. Picking and choosing to stop that critical hit would be massive metagaming, which further reduces this power as youd have to use it if the attack would miss anyway, you wouldnt know *unless they say crit missed and shot the floor :P*