The Dervish [Archive] - Wizards Community

The Dervish [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
paradox1995
06-11-07, 10:41 AM I have a PC that is going to take levels in the Dervish Prc Located on page 25 of the Comp. warrior. It seems like a very powerfull fighter PrC, espically while using slashing weapons...from level 1-10 it adds +15 to he attack bonus...

Does anyone here have any experience with this prestige class? If so please share your thoughts/opinions (even if you don't have 1st hand experience with it).

Thanks everyone,:D
The_Shaman
06-11-07, 10:56 AM From what I've seen it's a good PrC, especially for TWF warriors that can't rely on power attack (mind you, the move+fight combo works well for characters with skirmish). In terms of pure power, of course, I would not put it as high as the gishes, frenzied berserker, etc, but it can definitely be fun. Strangely enough, it is a good way to enter the Tempest, another good class for TWFers.
RobbyPants
06-11-07, 10:59 AM I've looked at it several times and read some things here on it, but I don't have any 1st hand experience.

From what I've seen, it's a good, solid PrC, but not really broken. Depending on how you set up your encounters, a dervish can be either very powerful or quite weak. If you fight on a grid, confined areas can be a nightmare for a dervish dance. Mixing these things up can be a good way to please and provide chalanges to the PC.

Here's a link to the Dervish Handbook (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=629013&highlight=dervish) in the CO boards. It should have all sorts of great insights for you. Of course, I guess it depends a lot on how good said PC is at optimizing. ;)
nastynate
06-11-07, 11:18 AM Dervish is one of the handful of non-spellcasting prestige classes available to melee-based characters that actually has some muscle. A dervish can do some great damage and is able to execute full attacks when other melee-based characters are limited to move action + standard attack.

A mid- to high-level melee-based character is only truly effective when able to consistently make full attacks (pounce is a common method) or standard attacks that actually do some damage (like the strikes from ToB); dervish also falls in this group. If you routinely play D&D between levels 6-16 (when iterative attacks come into play) dervish will make a great addition to the game, but don't be shocked when the damage output of the melee-based PCs increases.

From what I've seen it's a good PrC, especially for TWF warriors that can't rely on power attack (mind you, the move+fight combo works well for characters with skirmish). In terms of pure power, of course, I would not put it as high as the gishes, frenzied berserker, etc, but it can definitely be fun. Strangely enough, it is a good way to enter the Tempest, another good class for TWFers.

For the love of all that is holy! Do not bother with Tempest. That class is about as bland and suboptimal as it comes (barring a focus on the spring attack, bounding assault, rapid blitz line of feats and a sub-focus on high sword, low axe); Since the afore mentioned feat chain has no synergy with dervish dance, tempest has little synergy with dervish.

Try something like scout 3 / ranger 3 / dervish 9 / bloodclaw master 5 with swift hunter, improved skirmish, and some tiger claw boosts (like raging mongoose) or scout 3 / ranger 3 /dervish 9 / revenant blade 5 (for some crazy power attacking goodness) if you want to make a good dervish.
Apupunchau
06-11-07, 12:34 PM For the love of all that is holy! Do not bother with Tempest. That class is about as bland and suboptimal as it comes (barring a focus on the spring attack, bounding assault, rapid blitz line of feats and a sub-focus on high sword, low axe); Since the afore mentioned feat chain has no synergy with dervish dance, tempest has little synergy with dervish.

Beyond just the fun flavor of a Dervish Dual Wielding Scimitars plus the fact that not all GMs (including my own) allow the use of Tome of Battle, I think Tempest is a great class for Dervish. Reduces the penalties for two weapon fighting, allows for a move attack move with Two Weapon Spring attack for when you are out of Dervish Dances for the day and most importantly additional AC for a class that uses minimal armor. All of that and best Bab advancement and I believe decent saves work out pretty well.

There is a Dervish Handbook on the Character Optimization Board and one of the Builds is Swashbuckler 3/Fighter2/Dervish 10/Tempest 5 and I currently have a character who went Sb/Fgt/Sb/Fgt/Sb/Dervish 5/Tempest 3. He's gonna finish tempest and then go back to Dervish. With the Swashbuckler/Fighter build to qualify for Tempest you have to put off Improved Critical till level 12 Straight Fighter you can take it at level 9 and you can leave out the Weapon Finesse you get free as a Swashbuckler for other things if you like. Gonna go with two-weapon rend at 15th for my Dervish.
nastynate
06-11-07, 03:39 PM Suit yourself Apupunchau. Ultimately I feel (and I have argued for a few years now), that all you get from tempest is a +3 bonus to AC and +2 to hit. As opposed to either of the builds I already mentioned that get +4d6 skirmish damage, + 3 to AC, favored enemies, and either (in the case of bloodclaw master) +2 to hit and maneuvers or (in the case of revenant blade) 1.5 strength with both hands, 2:1 power attack return with both hands, and free improved critical (15-20 threat range).

If you want to go oldschool (w/o ToB, Complete Scoundrel, or Eberron material) swashbuckler 3 / rogue 3 / fighter 4 / dervish 10 is still preferable to tempest. I'll take a bonus feat (dervishes are really feat starved) and 2d6 sneak attack over anything tempest offers. That uses only two books (the PHB and Complete Warrior) and it's still got more damage potential than a tempest build. Not everything in the Dervish Handbook is good advice.

Are you really gonna bow out of dervish to take levels in an inferior class? Two-weapon spring attack is awful for a 5th level capstone class feature. The printing of bounding assault and rapid blitz make it more useful, but not so much in a dervish build. Besides, what dedicated dervish runs out of dervish dances in a day. Just keep taking dervish levels and you won't run out of dervish dances; it can be used 5/day (by 9th level) and it lasts the whole encounter. Taking tempest levels before you get to 9th as a dervish is only limiting the number of times per day you can dance...that's mind boggling. You are creating a weakness, not shoring it up.

Mind you, it's no skin off my back if people don't heed my advice, or if they disagree with me, but ask around on the CO boards about general opinions on Tempest (the class not Tempest Stormwind ;) )and you'll see I'm not alone in my assessment of the PrC. Tempest = Blech!

-Peace-

P.S. Sorry if I came off a little harsh or if I derailed the thread. I'll shut up and mind my own business now.
paradox1995
06-11-07, 03:41 PM Thaks for the link to the Dervish guide...awesome stuff, and thanks to the rest of you for your input as well... lplease keep the info coming.

From what I've seen it's a good PrC, especially for TWF warriors

Sorry for my ignorance... whats TWF stand for?:confused:
RobbyPants
06-11-07, 03:42 PM Sorry for my ignorance... whats TWF stand for?:confused:
Two Weapon Fighting. Not to be confused with THW (Two Handed Weapon).

For more, useful accronyms, check out Trollbill's Dictionary of Terminology (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=46916).
Apupunchau
06-11-07, 03:59 PM You are technically correct nastynate (which is or course the best kind of correct) and you didn't come off as harsh (at least not too much). I generally make characters to go with the concept of what I'm playing, which means flavor text is more important to me than stats. I got Tempest because it's a dedicated two-weapon fighting class (even if underpowered when taking other class/feat combos) and plus I love the name Tempest. As you stand by your build in terms of damage dealing I stand by mine in terms of character concept. And I won't hold it against you that you disagree with me.

To continue with the Dervish discussion I see Dervishes as Arabian Nights type characters and I'd like to see both a useful one in terms of ability and in terms of flavor for a powerful falchion fighter (of course no ToB) but I'll go ask on the CO board for that.
nastynate
06-11-07, 04:20 PM You are technically correct nastynate (which is or course the best kind of correct) and you didn't come off as harsh (at least not too much). I generally make characters to go with the concept of what I'm playing, which means flavor text is more important to me than stats. I got Tempest because it's a dedicated two-weapon fighting class (even if underpowered when taking other class/feat combos) and plus I love the name Tempest. As you stand by your build in terms of damage dealing I stand by mine in terms of character concept. And I won't hold it against you that you disagree with me.

To continue with the Dervish discussion I see Dervishes as Arabian Nights type characters and I'd like to see both a useful one in terms of ability and in terms of flavor for a powerful falchion fighter (of course no ToB) but I'll go ask on the CO board for that.

Well both blood claw master and revenant blade are two-weapon fighting classes, and if your gunning for an Arabian Nights kinda theme take a look at my avatar...that's a revenant blade. Looks a bit more Arabian to me than the tempest pic.

I'll keep an eye for further posts on the topic on the CO boards, and jump in if I can recommend anything thematically appropriate. I too really dig concept optimization, and typically plot out my own characters with a thematic build in mind.
Apupunchau
06-11-07, 04:29 PM Well both blood claw master and revenant blade are two-weapon fighting classes, and if your gunning for an Arabian Nights kinda theme take a look at my avatar...that's a revenant blade. Looks a bit more Arabian to me than the tempest pic.

Bloodclaw is in ToB isn't it so I won't be able to use it what book is Revenant blade out of.
nastynate
06-11-07, 05:20 PM Bloodclaw is in ToB isn't it so I won't be able to use it what book is Revenant blade out of.

The Players Guide to Eberron.
damudar
06-30-07, 07:42 AM does any1 know where can i find these classes online? thanks a bunch!
The_Shaman
06-30-07, 03:57 PM Finding the classes themself is not hard, here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/prc) .

Well, if we gave you non-open content from the WotC books, chances are Wizos would not be very happy with us. They are kinda touchy on those copyright issues, mind you.

I think they allow selected sites to present sneak peaks of them (first 2 levels, usually) in their lists. Crystalkeep.com and the excerpts provided on the WotC site are the best sites for you if you want to get something for free and keep it legit.
Skara
06-30-07, 05:36 PM I have never played a dervish or used one as an NPC, but I read the class over carefully, since I think they're pretty neat. Unless I missed something, going to level 10 would be pretty important for a thousand cuts. I should make an NPC dervish...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
paradox1995 06-11-07, 10:41 AM	I have a PC that is going to take levels in the Dervish Prc Located on page 25 of the Comp. warrior. It seems like a very powerfull fighter PrC, espically while using slashing weapons...from level 1-10 it adds +15 to he attack bonus... Does anyone here have any experience with this prestige class? If so please share your thoughts/opinions (even if you don't have 1st hand experience with it). Thanks everyone,:D
The_Shaman 06-11-07, 10:56 AM	From what I've seen it's a good PrC, especially for TWF warriors that can't rely on power attack (mind you, the move+fight combo works well for characters with skirmish). In terms of pure power, of course, I would not put it as high as the gishes, frenzied berserker, etc, but it can definitely be fun. Strangely enough, it is a good way to enter the Tempest, another good class for TWFers.
RobbyPants 06-11-07, 10:59 AM	I've looked at it several times and read some things here on it, but I don't have any 1st hand experience. From what I've seen, it's a good, solid PrC, but not really broken. Depending on how you set up your encounters, a dervish can be either very powerful or quite weak. If you fight on a grid, confined areas can be a nightmare for a dervish dance. Mixing these things up can be a good way to please and provide chalanges to the PC. Here's a link to the Dervish Handbook (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=629013&highlight=dervish) in the CO boards. It should have all sorts of great insights for you. Of course, I guess it depends a lot on how good said PC is at optimizing. ;)
nastynate 06-11-07, 11:18 AM	Dervish is one of the handful of non-spellcasting prestige classes available to melee-based characters that actually has some muscle. A dervish can do some great damage and is able to execute full attacks when other melee-based characters are limited to move action + standard attack. A mid- to high-level melee-based character is only truly effective when able to consistently make full attacks (pounce is a common method) or standard attacks that actually do some damage (like the strikes from ToB); dervish also falls in this group. If you routinely play D&D between levels 6-16 (when iterative attacks come into play) dervish will make a great addition to the game, but don't be shocked when the damage output of the melee-based PCs increases. From what I've seen it's a good PrC, especially for TWF warriors that can't rely on power attack (mind you, the move+fight combo works well for characters with skirmish). In terms of pure power, of course, I would not put it as high as the gishes, frenzied berserker, etc, but it can definitely be fun. Strangely enough, it is a good way to enter the Tempest, another good class for TWFers. For the love of all that is holy! Do not bother with Tempest. That class is about as bland and suboptimal as it comes (barring a focus on the spring attack, bounding assault, rapid blitz line of feats and a sub-focus on high sword, low axe); Since the afore mentioned feat chain has no synergy with dervish dance, tempest has little synergy with dervish. Try something like scout 3 / ranger 3 / dervish 9 / bloodclaw master 5 with swift hunter, improved skirmish, and some tiger claw boosts (like raging mongoose) or scout 3 / ranger 3 /dervish 9 / revenant blade 5 (for some crazy power attacking goodness) if you want to make a good dervish.
Apupunchau 06-11-07, 12:34 PM	For the love of all that is holy! Do not bother with Tempest. That class is about as bland and suboptimal as it comes (barring a focus on the spring attack, bounding assault, rapid blitz line of feats and a sub-focus on high sword, low axe); Since the afore mentioned feat chain has no synergy with dervish dance, tempest has little synergy with dervish. Beyond just the fun flavor of a Dervish Dual Wielding Scimitars plus the fact that not all GMs (including my own) allow the use of Tome of Battle, I think Tempest is a great class for Dervish. Reduces the penalties for two weapon fighting, allows for a move attack move with Two Weapon Spring attack for when you are out of Dervish Dances for the day and most importantly additional AC for a class that uses minimal armor. All of that and best Bab advancement and I believe decent saves work out pretty well. There is a Dervish Handbook on the Character Optimization Board and one of the Builds is Swashbuckler 3/Fighter2/Dervish 10/Tempest 5 and I currently have a character who went Sb/Fgt/Sb/Fgt/Sb/Dervish 5/Tempest 3. He's gonna finish tempest and then go back to Dervish. With the Swashbuckler/Fighter build to qualify for Tempest you have to put off Improved Critical till level 12 Straight Fighter you can take it at level 9 and you can leave out the Weapon Finesse you get free as a Swashbuckler for other things if you like. Gonna go with two-weapon rend at 15th for my Dervish.
nastynate 06-11-07, 03:39 PM	Suit yourself Apupunchau. Ultimately I feel (and I have argued for a few years now), that all you get from tempest is a +3 bonus to AC and +2 to hit. As opposed to either of the builds I already mentioned that get +4d6 skirmish damage, + 3 to AC, favored enemies, and either (in the case of bloodclaw master) +2 to hit and maneuvers or (in the case of revenant blade) 1.5 strength with both hands, 2:1 power attack return with both hands, and free improved critical (15-20 threat range). If you want to go oldschool (w/o ToB, Complete Scoundrel, or Eberron material) swashbuckler 3 / rogue 3 / fighter 4 / dervish 10 is still preferable to tempest. I'll take a bonus feat (dervishes are really feat starved) and 2d6 sneak attack over anything tempest offers. That uses only two books (the PHB and Complete Warrior) and it's still got more damage potential than a tempest build. Not everything in the Dervish Handbook is good advice. Are you really gonna bow out of dervish to take levels in an inferior class? Two-weapon spring attack is awful for a 5th level capstone class feature. The printing of bounding assault and rapid blitz make it more useful, but not so much in a dervish build. Besides, what dedicated dervish runs out of dervish dances in a day. Just keep taking dervish levels and you won't run out of dervish dances; it can be used 5/day (by 9th level) and it lasts the whole encounter. Taking tempest levels before you get to 9th as a dervish is only limiting the number of times per day you can dance...that's mind boggling. You are creating a weakness, not shoring it up. Mind you, it's no skin off my back if people don't heed my advice, or if they disagree with me, but ask around on the CO boards about general opinions on Tempest (the class not Tempest Stormwind ;) )and you'll see I'm not alone in my assessment of the PrC. Tempest = Blech! -Peace- P.S. Sorry if I came off a little harsh or if I derailed the thread. I'll shut up and mind my own business now.
paradox1995 06-11-07, 03:41 PM	Thaks for the link to the Dervish guide...awesome stuff, and thanks to the rest of you for your input as well... lplease keep the info coming. From what I've seen it's a good PrC, especially for TWF warriors Sorry for my ignorance... whats TWF stand for?:confused:
RobbyPants 06-11-07, 03:42 PM	Sorry for my ignorance... whats TWF stand for?:confused: Two Weapon Fighting. Not to be confused with THW (Two Handed Weapon). For more, useful accronyms, check out Trollbill's Dictionary of Terminology (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=46916).
Apupunchau 06-11-07, 03:59 PM	You are technically correct nastynate (which is or course the best kind of correct) and you didn't come off as harsh (at least not too much). I generally make characters to go with the concept of what I'm playing, which means flavor text is more important to me than stats. I got Tempest because it's a dedicated two-weapon fighting class (even if underpowered when taking other class/feat combos) and plus I love the name Tempest. As you stand by your build in terms of damage dealing I stand by mine in terms of character concept. And I won't hold it against you that you disagree with me. To continue with the Dervish discussion I see Dervishes as Arabian Nights type characters and I'd like to see both a useful one in terms of ability and in terms of flavor for a powerful falchion fighter (of course no ToB) but I'll go ask on the CO board for that.
nastynate 06-11-07, 04:20 PM	You are technically correct nastynate (which is or course the best kind of correct) and you didn't come off as harsh (at least not too much). I generally make characters to go with the concept of what I'm playing, which means flavor text is more important to me than stats. I got Tempest because it's a dedicated two-weapon fighting class (even if underpowered when taking other class/feat combos) and plus I love the name Tempest. As you stand by your build in terms of damage dealing I stand by mine in terms of character concept. And I won't hold it against you that you disagree with me. To continue with the Dervish discussion I see Dervishes as Arabian Nights type characters and I'd like to see both a useful one in terms of ability and in terms of flavor for a powerful falchion fighter (of course no ToB) but I'll go ask on the CO board for that. Well both blood claw master and revenant blade are two-weapon fighting classes, and if your gunning for an Arabian Nights kinda theme take a look at my avatar...that's a revenant blade. Looks a bit more Arabian to me than the tempest pic. I'll keep an eye for further posts on the topic on the CO boards, and jump in if I can recommend anything thematically appropriate. I too really dig concept optimization, and typically plot out my own characters with a thematic build in mind.
Apupunchau 06-11-07, 04:29 PM	Well both blood claw master and revenant blade are two-weapon fighting classes, and if your gunning for an Arabian Nights kinda theme take a look at my avatar...that's a revenant blade. Looks a bit more Arabian to me than the tempest pic. Bloodclaw is in ToB isn't it so I won't be able to use it what book is Revenant blade out of.
nastynate 06-11-07, 05:20 PM	Bloodclaw is in ToB isn't it so I won't be able to use it what book is Revenant blade out of. The Players Guide to Eberron.
damudar 06-30-07, 07:42 AM	does any1 know where can i find these classes online? thanks a bunch!
The_Shaman 06-30-07, 03:57 PM	Finding the classes themself is not hard, here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/prc) . Well, if we gave you non-open content from the WotC books, chances are Wizos would not be very happy with us. They are kinda touchy on those copyright issues, mind you. I think they allow selected sites to present sneak peaks of them (first 2 levels, usually) in their lists. Crystalkeep.com and the excerpts provided on the WotC site are the best sites for you if you want to get something for free and keep it legit.
Skara 06-30-07, 05:36 PM	I have never played a dervish or used one as an NPC, but I read the class over carefully, since I think they're pretty neat. Unless I missed something, going to level 10 would be pretty important for a thousand cuts. I should make an NPC dervish...