The Ex-Blackguard [Archive] - Wizards Community

The Ex-Blackguard [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
kyros_the_spawnslayer
10-21-07, 02:23 PM In stories there have occasionally been those that try to repent for their evil ways and that brought a question to mind, what sort of ablities should a ex-blackguard paladin gain?

Now its shown in the DMG that when a paladin takes up the mantle of blackguard he gains some special ablities (extra smite good attempts, increased sneak attack damage, and a undead minion to do his bidding) which are determined by the number of ex-paladin levels he had. But does anyone have any suggested abilities for an ex-blackguard that becomes a paladin to undo all the evil deeds he's done?
CryoSilver
10-21-07, 02:26 PM I say just let him trade in his levels of blackguard for paladin levels.
vorpo
10-21-07, 02:32 PM I say just let him trade in his levels of blackguard for paladin levels.

The problem would be if the ex-blackguard is actually lawful good. After all, blackguard's entry requirement is ANY evil not lawful evil. There is a reason why DND was thought to be satanistic after all. They have more materials luring people to become evil from good than the other way around :rolleyes:
CryoSilver
10-21-07, 04:02 PM Then use one of the variant paladins from Unearthed Arcana.

I don't know what they're called, since I don't own the book, m'self.
vorpo
10-21-07, 07:18 PM Then use one of the variant paladins from Unearthed Arcana.

I don't know what they're called, since I don't own the book, m'self.

Paladin of Freedom, Slaughter etc. However, they are all alignment-wise extremes. CG, LE, CE. So, you basically still have NG, LN, N, CN to fill in (all these alignments cause blackguards to be ex'd)
CryoSilver
10-21-07, 07:23 PM Well, I'm stumped, and my books are too far away for me to go get them out to make something up.
vorpo
10-21-07, 07:35 PM To OP: personally, when a paladin gets fouled to become blackguard are practically non-existant when it comes to becoming a paladin again. Really, alignment shifts of such extremity are so rare. The best way to handle this will probably be: a blackguard who even turns back to LG can never become paladin just because their sins just can't be repented.
septembervirgin
10-22-07, 03:19 PM The best way to handle this will probably be: a blackguard who even turns back to LG can never become paladin just because their sins just can't be repented.

However a blackguard who was never a paladin but later becomes a paladin can exercise paladin abilities. A blackguard who changes alignment should lose all special class features but retain level benefits, skills and feats obtained, and the prestige class levels. The blackguard would also lose their familiar: it would be returned to the underworld by its masters.
vorpo
10-22-07, 04:03 PM I think it's OP's intention to find out how not to waste blackguard levels when he becomes paladin or other classes. There is simply none officially. So, if you want to roleplay a blackguard-turned paladin, you just have to live with that choice and waste that many lvls of special abilities :weep:
Legdiwena
10-22-07, 04:29 PM At least give him smite good/day as in blackguard conversion. Celestial companion, maybe extra use of lay on hands.
kyros_the_spawnslayer
10-24-07, 05:22 PM Well orignally my thought was a normally evil character that is a blackguard (may of been a rogue, fighter, etc. beforehand) and after being taught the error of his ways he wants to make it up (i.e. take on the mantle of a paladin).

The main reason I would want this "ruling" is for a homebrewed campaign I'm working on, and for me it just seems logical that if a pure good creature gains extra dark powers by converting then why should not the reverse be also true for a dark being turning to the side of good?
1 ton ghost
10-25-07, 12:08 PM the "switch" you mean to speak of, is an old allusion to villainy and redemption.
evil is far more seductive and willing to entice w/ promises of power etc.
good require harder work and is generally harder to break into. more trusting on a whole, however, if you have many ill deeds, the branding sticks w/ you alot longer.
it's just a dramatic device used throughout history. far more examples in earth mythoi about great men and women perverted or corrupted vs. those that seek redemption and actually attain it.

some well know falls from grace:

-benedict arnold (disloyal, but not diabolic really)
-mao and stahlin (hero of the new govt's, actually killed more of their own ppl than Hitler did jews, 33million and 20 million respectively)
-oh, and the obvious one, judas iscariot, cuz' well, c'mon...

on the other hand, it's alot harder to think of the reformed
-saul (paul), killed alot of ppl in the Bible, but "smote by God", reformed, etc.
damn, i'm having trouble thinking of more (more coffee needed). plenty in the Bible and other religious texts cuz' they're about mankinds' inner goodness, forgiveness, etc., most major tenets of most major religions are the same really.

in game, i wouldn't express it via any one formula. an Atonement alone shouldn't be a get out of jail free card, nor a case-closed Redemption via BoED. better to just RP it out indie w/ your DM...
The_Shaman
10-25-07, 05:43 PM Unless there is a good being actively interested in getting ex-villains, I don't think you'd get any special abilities. In the case of blackguards, the evil powers are said to be particularly interested in getting ex-paladins on board. OTOH, you keep the sneak attack and the poison use - these are actual combat tricks, not something you gain through affiliation with the forces of evil.
bkdubs123
10-26-07, 12:48 AM I would say that you can convert the Smite Goods you have into Smite Evils as well. As a blackguard you channeled your very soul into destroying good characters. As a paladin you channel your very soul into destroying evil characters. When you switch between the two alignments your "soul" effectively "switches" as well. You already know how to put that energy to use to attack with, you now just have a different purpose to use it for.

As far as other abilities go... probably not. As stated above, the agents of good don't usually seek to convert the agents of evil, and therefor don't really entice them with gifts of power.
imakuni67
10-26-07, 01:58 PM As far as other abilities go... probably not. As stated above, the agents of good don't usually seek to convert the agents of evil, and therefor don't really entice them with gifts of power.

But let's look at something like the example of the illithid in BoED, given pity by good creatures and developing a better outlook on life.
Ultima0071
10-26-07, 06:44 PM A new prestige class maybe. Names? I'm thinking about the Repented or the Undecided Soul.
The_Shaman
10-27-07, 05:36 PM Wasn't there something in the 3.0 books, ghost walker or some such, that allowed a character to get benefits from paladin or blackguard levels?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kyros_the_spawnslayer 10-21-07, 02:23 PM	In stories there have occasionally been those that try to repent for their evil ways and that brought a question to mind, what sort of ablities should a ex-blackguard paladin gain? Now its shown in the DMG that when a paladin takes up the mantle of blackguard he gains some special ablities (extra smite good attempts, increased sneak attack damage, and a undead minion to do his bidding) which are determined by the number of ex-paladin levels he had. But does anyone have any suggested abilities for an ex-blackguard that becomes a paladin to undo all the evil deeds he's done?
CryoSilver 10-21-07, 02:26 PM	I say just let him trade in his levels of blackguard for paladin levels.
vorpo 10-21-07, 02:32 PM	I say just let him trade in his levels of blackguard for paladin levels. The problem would be if the ex-blackguard is actually lawful good. After all, blackguard's entry requirement is ANY evil not lawful evil. There is a reason why DND was thought to be satanistic after all. They have more materials luring people to become evil from good than the other way around :rolleyes:
CryoSilver 10-21-07, 04:02 PM	Then use one of the variant paladins from Unearthed Arcana. I don't know what they're called, since I don't own the book, m'self.
vorpo 10-21-07, 07:18 PM	Then use one of the variant paladins from Unearthed Arcana. I don't know what they're called, since I don't own the book, m'self. Paladin of Freedom, Slaughter etc. However, they are all alignment-wise extremes. CG, LE, CE. So, you basically still have NG, LN, N, CN to fill in (all these alignments cause blackguards to be ex'd)
CryoSilver 10-21-07, 07:23 PM	Well, I'm stumped, and my books are too far away for me to go get them out to make something up.
vorpo 10-21-07, 07:35 PM	To OP: personally, when a paladin gets fouled to become blackguard are practically non-existant when it comes to becoming a paladin again. Really, alignment shifts of such extremity are so rare. The best way to handle this will probably be: a blackguard who even turns back to LG can never become paladin just because their sins just can't be repented.
septembervirgin 10-22-07, 03:19 PM	The best way to handle this will probably be: a blackguard who even turns back to LG can never become paladin just because their sins just can't be repented. However a blackguard who was never a paladin but later becomes a paladin can exercise paladin abilities. A blackguard who changes alignment should lose all special class features but retain level benefits, skills and feats obtained, and the prestige class levels. The blackguard would also lose their familiar: it would be returned to the underworld by its masters.
vorpo 10-22-07, 04:03 PM	I think it's OP's intention to find out how not to waste blackguard levels when he becomes paladin or other classes. There is simply none officially. So, if you want to roleplay a blackguard-turned paladin, you just have to live with that choice and waste that many lvls of special abilities :weep:
Legdiwena 10-22-07, 04:29 PM	At least give him smite good/day as in blackguard conversion. Celestial companion, maybe extra use of lay on hands.
kyros_the_spawnslayer 10-24-07, 05:22 PM	Well orignally my thought was a normally evil character that is a blackguard (may of been a rogue, fighter, etc. beforehand) and after being taught the error of his ways he wants to make it up (i.e. take on the mantle of a paladin). The main reason I would want this "ruling" is for a homebrewed campaign I'm working on, and for me it just seems logical that if a pure good creature gains extra dark powers by converting then why should not the reverse be also true for a dark being turning to the side of good?
1 ton ghost 10-25-07, 12:08 PM	the "switch" you mean to speak of, is an old allusion to villainy and redemption. evil is far more seductive and willing to entice w/ promises of power etc. good require harder work and is generally harder to break into. more trusting on a whole, however, if you have many ill deeds, the branding sticks w/ you alot longer. it's just a dramatic device used throughout history. far more examples in earth mythoi about great men and women perverted or corrupted vs. those that seek redemption and actually attain it. some well know falls from grace: -benedict arnold (disloyal, but not diabolic really) -mao and stahlin (hero of the new govt's, actually killed more of their own ppl than Hitler did jews, 33million and 20 million respectively) -oh, and the obvious one, judas iscariot, cuz' well, c'mon... on the other hand, it's alot harder to think of the reformed -saul (paul), killed alot of ppl in the Bible, but "smote by God", reformed, etc. damn, i'm having trouble thinking of more (more coffee needed). plenty in the Bible and other religious texts cuz' they're about mankinds' inner goodness, forgiveness, etc., most major tenets of most major religions are the same really. in game, i wouldn't express it via any one formula. an Atonement alone shouldn't be a get out of jail free card, nor a case-closed Redemption via BoED. better to just RP it out indie w/ your DM...
The_Shaman 10-25-07, 05:43 PM	Unless there is a good being actively interested in getting ex-villains, I don't think you'd get any special abilities. In the case of blackguards, the evil powers are said to be particularly interested in getting ex-paladins on board. OTOH, you keep the sneak attack and the poison use - these are actual combat tricks, not something you gain through affiliation with the forces of evil.
bkdubs123 10-26-07, 12:48 AM	I would say that you can convert the Smite Goods you have into Smite Evils as well. As a blackguard you channeled your very soul into destroying good characters. As a paladin you channel your very soul into destroying evil characters. When you switch between the two alignments your "soul" effectively "switches" as well. You already know how to put that energy to use to attack with, you now just have a different purpose to use it for. As far as other abilities go... probably not. As stated above, the agents of good don't usually seek to convert the agents of evil, and therefor don't really entice them with gifts of power.
imakuni67 10-26-07, 01:58 PM	As far as other abilities go... probably not. As stated above, the agents of good don't usually seek to convert the agents of evil, and therefor don't really entice them with gifts of power. But let's look at something like the example of the illithid in BoED, given pity by good creatures and developing a better outlook on life.
Ultima0071 10-26-07, 06:44 PM	A new prestige class maybe. Names? I'm thinking about the Repented or the Undecided Soul.
The_Shaman 10-27-07, 05:36 PM	Wasn't there something in the 3.0 books, ghost walker or some such, that allowed a character to get benefits from paladin or blackguard levels?