Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Grod_The_Giant 03-13-07, 10:00 AM	The Hellfire Mage Requirements: Eldritch Blast 3d6 Feats: Weapon Focus (Eldritch Blast) Invocations: Brimstone Blast skills: Intimidate 5 ranks. Special: never learned Hellrime Blast Hit Die: D6 Eldritch Blast Damage Level Bab Fort Ref Will Special /Invocations Known ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 +0 +0 +0 +2 Hellfire Blast, Fire Vow, +1 Warlock Level Resistance to Fire 5 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2 +1 +0 +0 +3 Hellfire's Fury 5 +1 Warlock Level ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3. +2 +1 +1 +3 Hellfire's Burn +1 Warlock Level ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4 +3 +1 +1 +4 Hellfire's Fury 10, +1 Warlock Level Resistance to Fire 10 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5 +3 +1 +1 +4 Damage Reduction +1 Warlock Level 2/cold iron ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6 +4 +2 +2 +5 Hellfire's Fury 15 +1 Warlock Level ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7. +5 +2 +2 +5 Hellfire Shape +1 Warlock Level Resistance to Fire 15 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8 +6/+1 +2 +2 +6 Hellfire's Wrath +1 Warlock Level ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9 +6/+1 +3 +3 +6 Damage Reduction 4/Cold Iron +1 Warlock Level ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10 +7/+2 +3 +3 +7 Hellfire's Might +1 Warlock Level Class Skills: Skill points per level: 4 + Int modifier Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Disguise (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Arcana) (Int), Knowledge (the Planes) (Int), Knowledge (Religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha). Class Features Weapons and Armor Proficiency: The Hellfire Mage gains no proficiency with any weapons or armor. Eldritch Blast Damage/Invocations Known: At every level, a Hellfire Mage continues his advancement in Eldritch Blast damage and Invocations known as if he gained a new level in his warlock class. Hellfire Blast (Sp): The Hellfire Mage's Eldritch Blast can be turned into a Hellfire Blast at will. A Hellfire Blast deals fire damage, rather then untyped. Other Eldritch Essence Invocations may be applied to the Hellfire Blast (except for Hellrime Blast). This is an optional ability- He can still use his normal Eldritch Blast, but he may not apply any special Hellfire Fire Vow: A Hellfire Mage vows never to deal cold damage again. This includes damage from scrolls, wands, staffs, metamagic rods, and the Hellrime Blast Invocation. In addition, he may never learn a feat or a Invocation that allows him to deal cold damage. If he does, he looses all Hellfire Mage abilities and must seek an Atonement spell. Fire Resistance (Su): A Hellfire Mage's affinity to fire grants him resistance to fire 5. This resistance stacks with any previous fire resistance he may have. This improves to 10 at fourth level and 15 at seventh level. Hellfire's Fury (Su): Starting at second level, a Hellfire Mage's Hellfire Blast becomes so powerful, it can burn creature normally impervious to flame. At second level, it ignores 5 points of fire resistance. The resistance ignored improves to 10 at fourth level and 15 at seventh level. Hellfire's Burn (Sp): Any target struck by the Hellfire Mage's Hellfire Blast must make a reflex save or catch on fire, dealing 2d6 fire damage/round. It lasts for 1 round/five caster levels. Damage Reduction (Su): At fifth level, a Hellfire Mage's gains Damage Reduction 2/Cold Iron. At level 9, this improves to 4/Cold Iron.. This stacks with any existing damage reduction he may already have. Hellfire Shape (Su): At seventh level, a Hellfire Mage can gain great control over his Hellfire Blast. He can shape his Hellfire Blast to fit the situation. It can take the form of: a 10 foot radius, 30 foot high cylinder a 40 foot cone four 10 foot cubes a 20 foot radius spread ball a 120 foot line This ability counts as a Blast Shape Invocation, and can be used a number of times per day equal to the Hellfire Mage's Charisma modifier. Hellfire's Wrath (Su): At eighth level, a Hellfire Mage's Hellfire Blast is so powerful that it ignores the fire resistance/immunity of all creatures except for creatures with the Fire subtype. Hellfire's Might (Su): At tenth level, a Hellfire Mage's Hellfire Blast is so powerful that it ignore the fire resistance of all creatures.
obrysii 03-13-07, 10:17 AM	Looks pretty interesting. But does it's 10th level ability allow it to ignore Fire Immunity?
Khael 03-13-07, 10:34 AM	Ahem... Fix the damage reduction. Now. That warlock example gets DR 6/-, because elemental damage isn't affected by DR so acid, lightning etc still works like they always did, and no normal weapon can get round the DR(a cold enchanted sword deal cold damge, but its slashing will still be Dr'd.) And like obrysii, I ask why ignore fire immunity? Normal hellfire works by splitting the damage half fire, half untyped. So really it doesn't make any sense how this master of hellfire is better at it, than an archfiend, who's declared himself 'god of hellfire'... Or even a hellfire wyrm...
Grod_The_Giant 03-13-07, 02:00 PM	And like obrysii, I ask why ignore fire immunity? Normal hellfire works by splitting the damage half fire, half untyped. So really it doesn't make any sense how this master of hellfire is better at it, than an archfiend, who's declared himself 'god of hellfire'... Or even a hellfire wyrm... huh? I know nothing about any specific rules about hellfire. Could you post them or give a link? I put in the ignoring fire resistance so that the Hellfire Mage wouldn't feel left out or useless if the group is up against something with fire resistance/immunity, like an elemental.
Khael 03-13-07, 05:45 PM	Okay then, hellfire is not orignal here, it's been stated as a type (sorta), and as I said its stated so half the damage is fire, and the other half untyped, like the warlock dealt to begin with. The problem is, there are sets of spells, monsters etc. all using hellfire, and this very in-game bizarre ability puts real hellfire to shame.
Grod_The_Giant 03-13-07, 06:58 PM	oh... well, it's not real hellfire, just a name. And the infernal, magical, part is what's causing it to ignore fire resistance.
Ventilatory_Threshold 03-14-07, 10:30 AM	Umm... Hellfire, as it's described deals untyped damage (see Fiendish Codex II). It burns so hot that it penetrates any resistance and immunity.
WinterPsionic 03-14-07, 12:09 PM	If memory serves Hellfire was a pet project of the Great Mephistopheles, lord of the 8th Layer of Hell, Cania, which oddly enough is the Frozen Layer. It's infernal essence bypasses ALL forms of Fire Resitance(including immunity) but using it syphons part of your life energy as it damages the soul(hence the Helllfire Warlocks Con damage for using it). At the moment I don't see a single benefit this class has over the Hellfire Warlock with the possible exception of Invocation progression. The 4 10ft cube shaping is a nice touch but I've seen a hombrewed blast shape that allows this as well. i think you did a pretty good job on the work, but as it stands I can't see a reason to invest in this class over the Hellfire Warlock, but like I said, I'll compare the 2 as soon as I can.
Grod_The_Giant 03-14-07, 02:58 PM	Hellfire warlock? Such a thing already exists? I list my books in my sig... I have the basic completes (Arc, Div, Adv, War), PHBII, stormwreck, and core. And, I guess you can look at it as the Warlock sort of building up to using hellfire. Is it balanced and useful, though? I have a player playing a warlock who's just about at the level a PrC like this would be useful.
WinterPsionic 03-14-07, 03:38 PM	The Hellfire Warlock was introduced in the Fiendish Codex 2: Tyrants of the Nine Hells, it also had a class feature article on the main page. Let's see if I can find it....here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061207a&page=3) it is
Ventilatory_Threshold 03-14-07, 03:39 PM	It's infernal essence bypasses ALL forms of Fire Resitance(including immunity) but using it syphons part of your life energy as it damages the soul(hence the Helllfire Warlocks Con damage for using it). Only the Hellfire Warlock has to pay for it. The class's fluff says they're essentially buying Hellfire when they use it. At the moment I don't see a single benefit this class has over the Hellfire Warlock with the possible exception of Invocation progression. The Hellfire Warlock has an invocation progression. The Hellfire Warlock. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061207a&page=3)
WinterPsionic 03-14-07, 03:45 PM	The Hellfire Warlock has an invocation progression. Well then there ya go(didn't have my books and wasn't sure if every level gave you the base progression). As for the fluff, gues I didn't pay enough attention, this is the only way I've seen hellfire directly interacted with so I got the impression that it "burned" the soul.
Grod_The_Giant 03-14-07, 03:56 PM	actually, I see numerous differences with the posted version. My Hellfire Blast is basically an eldrich blast with brimstone blast auto-attached, and a slowly built-up ability to bypass fire resistance. the hellfire warlock's hellfire blast sacrifices Con for extra damage, and has special (non-posted) rules on hellfire [which, from what you all say, are that it bypasses all fire resistance/immunity]. My version has a progression to better fire resistance AND IMMUNITY, rather then a single-time thing. finally, my version has the useful hellfire shape ability and improves the warlock's DR. The published version has the infusion and sheild abilities. Maybe it's just me, but I think I see which one I'd rather play. But please, is it balanced, and what could be done to improve it?
WinterPsionic 03-14-07, 04:16 PM	Having not compared them still I won't make any calls, I was going off what I remembered from reading the class(during my first post I completely forgot the class was published online). I'll compare as soon as I get enough free time to sit down and read over them both.
Grod_The_Giant 03-17-07, 10:25 PM	:bump:
Khael 03-18-07, 12:35 PM	actually, I see numerous differences with the posted version. My Hellfire Blast is basically an eldrich blast with brimstone blast auto-attached, and a slowly built-up ability to bypass fire resistance. the hellfire warlock's hellfire blast sacrifices Con for extra damage, and has special (non-posted) rules on hellfire [which, from what you all say, are that it bypasses all fire resistance/immunity My version has a progression to better fire resistance AND IMMUNITY, rather then a single-time thing. finally, my version has the useful hellfire shape ability and improves the warlock's DR. The published version has the infusion and sheild abilities. Maybe it's just me, but I think I see which one I'd rather play. But please, is it balanced, and what could be done to improve it? Your're version is also over 10 levels, it would be directly superior in long-term, it can string stronger stuff over longer (case in point a warlock8/incarnate1/hellfire warlock3 deals 6d6 extra damage, bypassing fire resistance at no con damage. A warlock9/hellfire mage3 now... can get past a third of the the others resistance. That with the fact its a three level PrC versus this 10 level fire-focused one... I also think I can see which class I'd choose... And what is the HD and skill points info? I assume its as normal warlock, but you never know... As to balance comparing it to the hellfire warlock... I'd go with no. but only by a slight amount. You've given two good saves, relatively easy entrance conditions (no skills ranks needed for example), rammed up the DR slightly applying it in a big glob, given a nice effect (The shape if you wondered, I like its effect a lot) with only two drawbacks: no cold damage, and no imbue (the imbue is by reputation worth a lot though). But ultimately you gain a point or two DR, shape, and the fire immunity over the hellfire warlock, while losing imbue, one evocation and much of the resistance to another element. The hellfire warlock now...loses three levels for an damage boosted attack with an effect like this 10th level one, and a drawback overcome by use of incarnum or similar. I would consider dropping the good fort save, and not going with fire immunity. Remember, the class isn't apparently dealing with true hellfire until 10th level, and even the mortals masters of that don't get that kind of protection permanently(the closest I know of is the pyrokinesist from XPH, and that is only for a short while). I would however give over and grant this in an evocation, maybe an extra prerequisite for this class: Forged in (element): The hellfire mage can as a standard action gain immunity to (element) for 1 minute/hour/round per caster level. Also... spread out the DR, in theory it won't be used much anyway, but its much more plausible if the DR is spread out over two or three levels. And lastly on a flavour note for on this board, Stop Using The Term 'Hellfire blast' here... Until 10th level its a shadow of the actual hellfire blast... And infernal magical origins is no real excuse for an otherwise normal warlock to ignore fire resist. Hellfire is not normal fire. Magical fire is not normal fire either. Magical fire is not however hellfire. It's just by the explanation (post #5) pit fiends should ignore fire resistance... They are of infernal origin wielding magical fire... In this last bit BTW I'm wasn't trying to make fun if it comes out that way, most things I say just come out like that... BTW I'm not sure if I should apologise to you for comparing your class to the hellfire warlock so much, but if I should, sorry... Yes, I know I should be shot for the word 'plausible' in a non-storyline D&D context. At least no catgirls were harmed.
Grod_The_Giant 03-18-07, 01:01 PM	Ok. I took out the Fire Immunity, added an intimidate requirement, and changed the DR to a pair of +2 boosts. I'm going to keep the Hellfire Name, beacuse: a. it fits the Warlock theme, and b. I don't have any of the fiend folis or other demon-focused books, so I have no paticular rules for fire.
hunterc311 03-18-07, 03:19 PM	I'm going to keep the Hellfire Name, beacuse: a. it fits the Warlock theme, and b. I don't have any of the fiend folis or other demon-focused books, so I have no paticular rules for fire. Heh, that's like saying you're "going to keep the Dragon Shaman name because you don't have the PHB2"... I'm not sure you're aware, but you're basically trying to overpower an existing PrC with no actual knowledge of that PrC or the concepts involved. Hellfire exists in the D&D world already. If you are making a class that uses hellfire, for use in the D&D world, it should be the same hellfire, not just your different version of it. The Hellfire Warlock is a pretty powerful PrC, which is why it's only 5 levels. Your 10-level version is amped up and gets even more over the long term progression, so I think if you want to design a class like this, you should at least become familiar with the Hellfire Warlock PrC and the concept of hellfire in general.
Grod_The_Giant 03-18-07, 03:30 PM	:hoppingma just forget about the ******* hellfire connection! it's just a flavor name! If it makes you feel better, just replace the word "hellfire" with "Mageflame" or something. I don't give a **** about any existing classes this is similar to. IS IT BALANCED? is the question here.
Khael 03-18-07, 05:12 PM	No it isn't just a flavour thing. If its a flavour name only you aren't using hellfire, so you have NO reason given to us why it can ignore fire resistance. And since we will point out holes in such things... (Much like a player might, after all, will you want to go down a route where you have no idea about the nature of the route involved? Being a evil/nongood warlock channeling the fires of hell is a known thing to a person with planar knowledge, but this magefire... what is it? will it give me cancer in two years time? How come the party wizard can hurl bolts of 'hellfire' that cut though fire protected monsters so much faster than my magefire?) In toher words if we now PEACHing this 'magefire' stuff remove the 'ignore fire resistance' effect. It has no apparent reason other than it sounds cool, especially when they have no reason to use fire blast, up until level 7 in the PrC... Eldritch blast after all ignores fire resistance... This I hope you understand can be the problem with throwing an idea to the board. If it is appears not too well thought out, we will tell you, and to tell us 'its just a flavour thing',....well... Why Did You Make This PrC? Wasn't It For The Flavour Of A Fire-Using Warlock?! And to further this: If its not hellfire, throw out the ignore fire resistance, and bolt on a few extra damage dice, spread out, that apply only to a brimstone blast, to represent the warlock's fire mastery. If a Balor, lord of fire, who burns with eternal flame cannot overcome fire immunity, this upstart whelp using plain magical fire on a once per 6 seconds(Or one round) cannot.
Grod_The_Giant 03-18-07, 07:04 PM	If its a flavour name only you aren't using hellfire, so you have NO reason given to us why it can ignore fire resistance. I'm NOT using hellfire. The reason it ignores fire resistance, as I have already said, is to keep the class useful when everything starts having fire resistance.
Electricall 03-18-07, 07:26 PM	I'm NOT using hellfire. The reason it ignores fire resistance, as I have already said, is to keep the class useful when everything starts having fire resistance. That's awful reasoning. It's totally metagame thinking. That's like saying "I'm giving the Fighter the level 20 ability to ignore all kinds of damage redution, since everything has damage reduction at level 20" Just because it's useful doesn't necessarily mean a class should have it. There needs to be a proper in-game, logical reason for it. And I have to agree with the other posters, the name Hellfire has already been taken in D&D. If you want to use that name, you have to respect it. Respect in this case mean researching hellfire and adapting your class to fit in among the other hellfire classes/feats/spells/invocations/etc. It'll get confusing otherwise.
Khael 03-20-07, 06:33 AM	I'm NOT using hellfire. The reason it ignores fire resistance, as I have already said, is to keep the class useful when everything starts having fire resistance. So tell me this: What will you do if your player asks why? Why does it do this? Because if you players like to go for effects that work in-game, not because their DM thought it would affect their balance (Which isn't really true anyway, Warlocks ignore fire res with their base blast. And the blast doesn't deal that much damage at high levels anyway.) Also those big monsters with fire resistance? They'll still laugh. Spell reistance still works for them.
cog_n_taz 03-20-07, 06:58 AM	How about this... "There are creatures who stand impervious to fire, can laugh in the heart of an inferno, yet even these mighty beasts fall before hellfire, for hellfire burns not the body, but the very soul. As the victim's soul is burned, so too do they disappear from this world...forever"
cog_n_taz 03-20-07, 07:12 AM	This would also mean (by 10th level, maybe?) that it would be like disintegrate: if you are taken down by it, you're only coming back with some limited stuff.
Khael 03-20-07, 09:16 AM	Except for two things...(The two we're yelling about) 1)He wants hellfire, we have hellfire. It has official rules. 2)But he doesn't want hellfire as hellfire, he wants it as flavour because it sounds good, with an effect tacked on as a metagame psuedo-balance. And yes, channeled hellfire by the rules (outside of magic) does affect the spirit, its why hellfire warlocks take CON damage. However the idea of destroying the soul... makes it an evil only effect. No spell directly destroys souls, not distingrate, not destruction and with good reason. Destroying a soul doesn't kill them, it wipes them from existance, an act only undone by wish, miracle etc. followed by true resurrection... The destruction is also by D&D morality a 'do not pass go, do not recieve redemption' route direct to baator on final death... The fact each death would likely need the wish-true res combo as hellfire affects the user...
Grod_The_Giant 03-20-07, 03:08 PM	ok, let me settle the hellfire issue by saying this. Normally, a Brimstone Blast takes the normal Eldritch Blast, and makes it fire damage. As he takes levels in this class, he learns to allow more and more of the raw magical power to enter his normally fiery blast. That's the end of the story on the Hellfire part. Period. I will ignore totally any more posts on the subject. Like I said, if you disagree, see the version below, renamed to avoid the issue. Now, will you please help me balance the darn thing? The Magefire Warlock Requirements: Eldritch Blast 3d6 Feats: Weapon Focus (Eldritch Blast) Invocations: Brimstone Blast skills: Intimidate 5 ranks. Special: never learned Hellrime Blast Hit Die: D6 Eldritch Blast Damage Level Bab Fort Ref Will Special /Invocations Known ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 +0 +0 +0 +2 Magefire Blast, Fire Vow, +1 Warlock Level Resistance to Fire 5 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2 +1 +0 +0 +3 Magefire's Fury 5 +1 Warlock Level ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3. +2 +1 +1 +3 Magefire's Burn +1 Warlock Level ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4 +3 +1 +1 +4 Magefire's Fury 10, +1 Warlock Level Resistance to Fire 10 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5 +3 +1 +1 +4 Damage Reduction +1 Warlock Level 2/cold iron ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6 +4 +2 +2 +5 Magefire's Fury 15 +1 Warlock Level ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7. +5 +2 +2 +5 Magefire Shape +1 Warlock Level Resistance to Fire 15 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8 +6/+1 +2 +2 +6 Magefire's Wrath +1 Warlock Level ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9 +6/+1 +3 +3 +6 Damage Reduction 4/Cold Iron +1 Warlock Level ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10 +7/+2 +3 +3 +7 Magefire's Might +1 Warlock Level Class Skills: Skill points per level: 4 + Int modifier Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Disguise (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Arcana) (Int), Knowledge (the Planes) (Int), Knowledge (Religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha). Class Features Weapons and Armor Proficiency: The Magefire Warlock gains no proficiency with any weapons or armor. Eldritch Blast Damage/Invocations Known: At every level, a Magefire Warlock continues his advancement in Eldritch Blast damage and Invocations known as if he gained a new level in his warlock class. Magefire Blast (Sp): The Magefire Warlock's Eldritch Blast can be turned into a Magefire Blast at will. A Magefire Blast deals fire damage, rather then untyped. Other Eldritch Essence Invocations may be applied to the Magefire Blast (except for Hellrime Blast). This is an optional ability- He can still use his normal Eldritch Blast, but he may not apply any special abilities gained from this class to it. Fire Vow: A Magefire Warlock vows never to deal cold damage again. This includes damage from scrolls, wands, staffs, metamagic rods, and the Hellrime Blast Invocation. In addition, he may never learn a feat or a Invocation that allows him to deal cold damage. If he does, he looses all Magefire Warlock abilities and must seek an Atonement spell. Fire Resistance (Su): A Magefire Warlock's affinity to fire grants him resistance to fire 5. This resistance stacks with any previous fire resistance he may have. This improves to 10 at fourth level and 15 at seventh level. Magefire's Fury (Su): Starting at second level, a Magefire Warlock's learns to infuse his normal Magefire Blast with the chaotic magics of his soul. This lets it burn creatures normally impervious to flame. At second level, it ignores 5 points of fire resistance. The resistance ignored improves to 10 at fourth level and 15 at seventh level. Magefire's Burn (Sp): Any target struck by the Magefire Warlock's Magefire Blast must make a reflex save or catch on fire, dealing 2d6 fire damage/round. It lasts for 1 round/five caster levels. Damage Reduction (Su): At fifth level, a Magefire Warlock gains Damage Reduction 2/Cold Iron. At level 9, this improves to 4/Cold Iron.. This stacks with any existing damage reduction he may already have. Magefire Shape (Su): At seventh level, a Magefire Warlock can gain great control over his Magefire Blast, shaping it to fit his needs. It can take the form of: a 10 foot radius, 30 foot high cylinder a 40 foot cone four 10 foot cubes a 20 foot radius spread ball a 120 foot line This ability counts as a Blast Shape Invocation, and can be used a number of times per day equal to the Magefire Warlock's Charisma modifier. Magefire's Wrath (Su): At eighth level, a Magefire Warlock's Magefire Blast is so powerful that it ignores the fire resistance/immunity of all creatures except for creatures with the Fire subtype. Magefire's Might (Su): At tenth level, a Magefire Warlock's Magefire Blast is so powerful that it ignore the fire resistance of all creatures.
Khael 03-20-07, 04:31 PM	Why? You still have to get round this. Why, with a reason that isn't metagaming, does the magefire overcome fire resistance? Being magical is no reason. Balors don't do it, and if a fire demon ranked in the demon general-to-noble area would have a mastery here... why does this warlock? (Especially since the normal reason for a warlock's powers is along the lines of a watered down fiendish/fey essence) Heat is no reason, since plasma (fire so hot its solid or can seem to be in basics)still deals normal fire damage. So why does magefire? Note i'm not going to compare it to that-which-shall not be named on this, but it is the argument several of us when on with, and which has not been answered. And which still may well be asked by the player. And also as I've said... Eldritch blast counters the Magefire's might/wrath effect on balance, since it isn't affected by fire resistance, and both are counted by spell resistance. So that is not a good reason.
Grod_The_Giant 03-20-07, 05:21 PM	^ | Ignored. :tantrum: I WAS SERIOUS. THAT PART WON'T CHANGE. NOW WILL SOMEONE PLEASE STOP GOING ON ABOUT THAT AND CRITIQUE OTHER PARTS OF THE GODDARNED CLASS!?!?:hoppingma :headexplo :banghead:
Khael 03-20-07, 05:36 PM	Do you want balanced or useful? (This is a serious question, based on the combined rumours of warlocks i've heard here) Becasue at the moment, other than the questionable skill point thing (Why does this get 4+int, while warlocks get 2+int? Again, it sounds cool is not a good gameplay answer.), it'll have balanced maybe, but not useful, based on what you gave up (I speak not of the cold vow, but of the mimicry of spells for crafting. And no, I don't see how based on the point of the class you can insert that, unless its a spell with the fire descriptor being used, so this can craft a staff with firestorm, but not a staff with true seeing.). As for the class as a whole then... its still a 'it sounds cool' concept idea than a playable useful class.
Grod_The_Giant 03-20-07, 05:42 PM	oops. I didn't have my book with me to check the skill points. Should be 2+int. As to the second thing, I can't quite understand what you mean, but from what I can, I think you're misinterpreting the Vow of Fire as meaning that you can only use fire subtype spells. In fact, all it does is prohibit you from using [cold] spells or magic items.
Khael 03-20-07, 05:55 PM	No i'm not misinterpreting anything (I think). The major use according, to rumour, of a warlock after about 10th level or so, is the 12th level crafting ability. This is because at high levels (The levels you entended to 'help' with magefires wrath/might) the warlock's attack is a low-medium damage one-shot-per turn trick that spell resistance affects. While everyone else pumps out higher damage (The fighter even can pump out 4 arrows, dealing the same kind of damage but with no SR applied.) This is why I keep telling you, the magefire wrath/might balances and helps in no way, unless you expect the player to use magefire EVERY time, which he does not have to, when better evocations exist (the only real benefit of magefire is the shaping. Every other time... Eldritch blast and acid damage will likely help more. But i'm now digressing: The major use of a high level warlock is that he can craft any item, by mimicing any spell. This class used to the full will never get that. Also based on the entire idea of the class he never should, except for a very limited verison where he can mimic other fire spells, or spells limited to those mimied by evocations. Anything else destroys the feel of being a fire-focused fiend, since to mimi other spells...he's drawing away for the fire focus you declare is the only reason to have amgefire, the only thing making this different from a base warlock but one thats slightly more powerful than a normal warlock at no loss (increased fire res, lowered other res, lowered fiendish resil, better DR, better brimstone blast, loses out on a totally optional evocation.)
cog_n_taz 03-20-07, 09:30 PM	How about allowing hellrime blast in, but not any other cold damage? Combine it with hellfire for... The flames of Cania. Sorta blue-black fire aura that fears/freezes/burns the enemy? Also, the whole burning the soul thing was just fluff, I meant it to just bypass fire res, and at 10th perhaps work like destruction if it is the killing blow up to WL/day.