The Jade Phoenix Mage [Archive] - Wizards Community

The Jade Phoenix Mage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Totentanz
02-19-07, 10:20 PM The caster in the game I'm currently playing in wants to use the Jade Phoenix Mage from ToB. The DM and I, the ADM, have been discussing it for a while and we are a bit concerned. My evaluation of the class is as follows...

1. It's an easy entry class. A single level of Martial adept or three feats if you really want 18 vs 17 CL. If the character is a primary initiator, simply add 3 levels of a main casting class, or maybe precocious apprentice-esque tricks.

2. Loses two CL's. This means the JPM still gets 9th level spells even if he takes the level of a ToB class to qualify. I'll be the first to admit that losing those 2 or 3 levels will hurt, but that is the only drawback to the class I see.

3. Assuming one level of either Warblade or Crusader, will end up with a cleric BAB at 20th (15). If you want a primary ToB build, then you end up with 18 BAB.

4. Ends up being a 15th level initiator and 17 level caster. Pretty sweet deal, no matter how you look at it.

5. Arcane wrath completely breaks the mold for the sac'ing arcane spells for melee damage mechanic. D10's?! Also gets two stances which help offset the level loss. Assuming practiced spellcaster (and anyone in JPM would take it), ends up 21 CL at 20th, or 23 for fire spells. Ohh, and don't forget that DR 10/evil you get ALL-DAY for one 5th level slot.

6. Empowering strike and Quickening strike are both all-day free metamagic. There are plenty of gish PrC's that would KILL for that.

7. Gets Devoted Spirit and Desert Wind. Okay, so JPM gets to heal himself/allies with one, and increase his maneuverability and melee damage with the other.

All in all, both the DM and I feel this class is over-powered as designed. We are mostly happy with the TOB at large, but this just doesn't sit right. What have I missed in my analysis? Is there something that is actually weak about this PrC? The player who wants to take the class seems content to reassert "it's fine" endlessly, but at this point I'm curious about other people's opinions.

So, what do you think of the JPM? Would you allow it in your campaign as is? Why or why not? Let's please avoid the "rollplaying vs. roleplaying" stuff, and no I'm not looking for a critique of my group's playing style or anything like that. Is this class a little too powerful?

Ohh and FYI, I keep coming back to one thing as I look at it in my book. I think, "If this were a PrC published before the ToB came out, it would have the same abilities, including something that duplicates the stances, and the Empowering/Quickening Strike. It would still lose two caster levels, and people would still take it."

Thanks in advance.
Encard
02-19-07, 11:28 PM 1. It's an easy entry class. A single level of Martial adept or three feats if you really want 18 vs 17 CL. If the character is a primary initiator, simply add 3 levels of a main casting class, or maybe precocious apprentice-esque tricks.
3 feats is a lot, given that most characters only ever have 7. It's especially a lot for a gish - gish builds tend to be badly strapped for feats as is. If you want to finish off with four more levels of some gish PrC, you may have another feat requirement to meet. I think the 1 level entry requirement is more the norm, same as it is for most gish PrC's I've seen.

2. Loses two CL's. This means the JPM still gets 9th level spells even if he takes the level of a ToB class to qualify. I'll be the first to admit that losing those 2 or 3 levels will hurt, but that is the only drawback to the class I see.
Losing initiator levels and CL's, you mean.

3. Assuming one level of either Warblade or Crusader, will end up with a cleric BAB at 20th (15). If you want a primary ToB build, then you end up with 18 BAB.
You could also do ToB Class 1/Wizard 5/JPM 10/Other Gish PrC 4. You'll probably have BAB +17, CL 16 or 17. Not much difference here from most similar builds, except that a number I've seen will top those two numbers.

4. Ends up being a 15th level initiator and 17 level caster. Pretty sweet deal, no matter how you look at it.
Sure. That's a similar argument to saying that the Clr/Wiz/Mystic Theurge is great, though - you end up as a 13th divine caster and 17th arcane (or the other way around)! Of course, if you look at it another way, you're basically a 15th and a 17th level character with the HP and actions per round of one - at best, that puts your effective EL at 18. It's nice, but you're losing top level maneuvers, some effectiveness from your lower level maneuvers, and some higher-end casting ability.

5. Arcane wrath completely breaks the mold for the sac'ing arcane spells for melee damage mechanic. D10's?! Also gets two stances which help offset the level loss. Assuming practiced spellcaster (and anyone in JPM would take it), ends up 21 CL at 20th, or 23 for fire spells. Ohh, and don't forget that DR 10/evil you get ALL-DAY for one 5th level slot.
Arcane Wrath is on a single attack. Compare that to Arcane Strike, which is on all attacks that round, and can be higher than a +4 bonus to attack. At higher levels, Arcane Strike wins out by a long shot. Practiced Spellcaster only raises your CL up to your HD, so I don't know that it'd stack the way you say with the JPM's +CL abilities. DR 10/evil all day long is only if you never want to use another stance, and it does cost you a spell slot - it's nice, but it kills a lot of your versatility and negates a substantial portion of your abilities from your martial adept side.

6. Empowering strike and Quickening strike are both all-day free metamagic. There are plenty of gish PrC's that would KILL for that.
Yeah, they're very nice abilities. Keep in mind that they're once per encounter, though.

7. Gets Devoted Spirit and Desert Wind. Okay, so JPM gets to heal himself/allies with one, and increase his maneuverability and melee damage with the other.
Devoted Spirit is pretty awesome. Desert Wind is arguably the least effective of the disciplines for damage, since it's all fire-based. You won't be lacking for maneuvers to choose, but you don't get many and your selection isn't too great. If you didn't start off with Devoted Spirit maneuvers - i.e. if you didn't come in with Martial Study feats/a Crusader level - you'll need to spend your limited maneuvers gained on low-level ones first. You'll also never get the highest tier of maneuvers, so no Heal or giant explosion for you.

All in all, both the DM and I feel this class is over-powered as designed. We are mostly happy with the TOB at large, but this just doesn't sit right. What have I missed in my analysis? Is there something that is actually weak about this PrC? The player who wants to take the class seems content to reassert "it's fine" endlessly, but at this point I'm curious about other people's opinions.
It's a great class. I don't believe that it's massively overpowered, though - although you get some very nice abilities, some of the other gish builds get things that the JPM doesn't - for example, casting in armor besides a twilight mithril chain shirt, more feats, high BAB/CL/HP, and certain miscellaneous abilities. Mind you, I'd love to play a JPM - it's one of the first things I think of when considering gish characters - but I don't think that it'd break the game. Honestly, a regular ol' full caster can probably do more, particularly one of the divine/Divine Metamagic bent.
Mister_Sinister
02-19-07, 11:35 PM I would allow it as-is. Here is why:

1) It requires 8 ranks in a skill, IIRC. That's IMPOSSIBLE before level 5. Furthermore, yes, it is easy-entry. So's abjurant champion, spellsword and EK, all of which power gish builds. There is absolutely no reason why this should be any harder to access than those.

2) Abjurant champion loses NO CLs. Spellsword, properly taken, loses NO CLs. EK loses ONE. Again, measuring by their yardstick, JPM is weak, not powerful. Furthermore, since you need 1 level in a martial adept class as well, by simply maxing it out, you're capping yourself to only getting 9th level spells at 20th. And this is assuming you use NO padding which hits caster levels. Since you get these spells a full 2 levels before full casters, you're not nearly as powerful as they are.

3) By the same token, martial class 1/caster class 6/ spellsword 1/abjurant champion 5/EK 8 gives you BAB of +18, caster level 9th with same level kill. JPM =/= crazy, it's actually LESS powerful than this 'vanilla gish'. And I know you get manouvres, your list is limited and fighting classes are weaker than casters anyhow, which is the whole purpose of making a gish.

4) Yeah, so? Using anima mage, I can make a binder with 8th level vestiges (highest) and a caster with 9th level spells. Using ardent, I can make a cerebremancer with 9th level psionics AND 9th level spells. Using arcane trickster, I can make a rogue with 9th level spells and 7 dice of sneak attack. Multiple-threat classes are powerful, but this isn't broken, it's average for such a class, maybe even slightly subpar.

5) All of the things you mention may be true. Then you remember that by that stage, druids are spending all day in collossal dragon form, rogues aren't seen for months on end, not to mention casting as well as the wizard, and speaking of wizards, they end combats before they even begin. Your doing of some d10s of damage, having DR/evil all day, and having caster level up high is not even close to the realm of broken.

6) Yeah, the fact you have to burn strikes for them does mitigate it somewhat. Then again, as I said, you're mitigating this a LOT by losses elsewhere from a plain arcane gish. Good, yes. Broken, no.

7) AND NOTHING ELSE. No White Raven, no Iron Heart, no Stone Dragon. Not to mention very few manouevres, so you never hit many of the really good ones. Ever.

Overall, your DM and you are vastly overstating the JPM's power. Broken is the Planar Shepherd of 6:1 time and the CoDzilla. This is on the same level as most arcane gishes, the Radiant Band-Aid of Pelor or Frenzied Berserker builds. Powerful, but not broken.

Give it a try. I'm playing a gish like this now, and let me tell you, it's one heck of a challenge. It's not as powerful as you may suspect, particularly at early levels, when you need to be skillful and ingenuitive.

I'm not trying to tell you how to play the game here, not at all. I'm just saying to give it a chance, and you'll see that it's actually one of the most sensible gish classes ever designed, unlike 1-level-dip spellsword or abjurant cheese-pion.
Totentanz
02-19-07, 11:53 PM Both of you made some good points, I have just a few responses.

Encard, good catch on the Arcane Wrath. I should have double-checked the CW feat myself, but oh well. Makes me much more comfortable with the ability.

MS, most of your opinions are spot on. Though, I have to say that using Planar Shepherd as the measuring stick for broken is probably a bad idea. :D That, and when I compare classes I generally don't think about the obvious DMM cheese etc.

I didn't really WANT to say something was wrong with it, I was just seeing it from a somewhat skewed perspective. Seeing it as just another gish, and a relatively weak one at that, it really isn't bad. I had this feeling the entire time I was missing something, and I was. Many somethings. Thanks for the help.
Barloch
02-20-07, 10:53 PM Remember theyre relatively fragile compared to other melee classes as well. Only a d6 hit die and no special armored casting abilities (unless they're a warmage base). And they still only have one standard action a round, they're awesom I'll grant that but I wouldn't count them among some of the more broken prcs out there.
Johannixx
02-22-07, 11:53 PM I'm planning on using JPM as the capstone to a gish build I've been tinkering with for a long while: Rogue2/Swashbuckler3/Half-elf Figher2 (RoD substitution levels)/Mage(Diviner)1/Warblade2/AbjurantChampion5/JPM5

The character won't even get spells until 9th level, but by 20th should be fairly well-rounded, with Evasion; Uncanny Dodge; Int bonus to Ref saves & damage; reasonable stealth; a few low-to-mid-level maneuvers from Diamond Mind, Iron Heart and Desert Wind; 5th-level arcane spells @ CL 19; and reasonable TWF abilities (via the half-elf racial fighter levels). He'll be reasonably effective at most things, but specialized in nothing. Kind of like a straight 20th-level bard... ;)
Timespike
02-23-07, 01:06 AM The proper use, in my opinion at least, of Jade Phoenix Mage is to dip arcane for 3 or 4 leves and go in primarily as an initiator (preferably crusader, so you can keep advancing devoted spirit maneuvers). If you're going in primarily as a spellcaster...

...those maneuvers basically add up to a few extra spells per day.
Johannixx
02-25-07, 05:00 PM I think going in as a swordsage with a dip of a few levels in arcane classes would also be useful, as the higher BAB of the JPM would allow you to be a more effective combatant, and you can build up Desert Wind maneuvers. Of course, you may find that you encounter fire-resistant critters with a startling regularity if your DM's worth his salt...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Totentanz 02-19-07, 10:20 PM	The caster in the game I'm currently playing in wants to use the Jade Phoenix Mage from ToB. The DM and I, the ADM, have been discussing it for a while and we are a bit concerned. My evaluation of the class is as follows... 1. It's an easy entry class. A single level of Martial adept or three feats if you really want 18 vs 17 CL. If the character is a primary initiator, simply add 3 levels of a main casting class, or maybe precocious apprentice-esque tricks. 2. Loses two CL's. This means the JPM still gets 9th level spells even if he takes the level of a ToB class to qualify. I'll be the first to admit that losing those 2 or 3 levels will hurt, but that is the only drawback to the class I see. 3. Assuming one level of either Warblade or Crusader, will end up with a cleric BAB at 20th (15). If you want a primary ToB build, then you end up with 18 BAB. 4. Ends up being a 15th level initiator and 17 level caster. Pretty sweet deal, no matter how you look at it. 5. Arcane wrath completely breaks the mold for the sac'ing arcane spells for melee damage mechanic. D10's?! Also gets two stances which help offset the level loss. Assuming practiced spellcaster (and anyone in JPM would take it), ends up 21 CL at 20th, or 23 for fire spells. Ohh, and don't forget that DR 10/evil you get ALL-DAY for one 5th level slot. 6. Empowering strike and Quickening strike are both all-day free metamagic. There are plenty of gish PrC's that would KILL for that. 7. Gets Devoted Spirit and Desert Wind. Okay, so JPM gets to heal himself/allies with one, and increase his maneuverability and melee damage with the other. All in all, both the DM and I feel this class is over-powered as designed. We are mostly happy with the TOB at large, but this just doesn't sit right. What have I missed in my analysis? Is there something that is actually weak about this PrC? The player who wants to take the class seems content to reassert "it's fine" endlessly, but at this point I'm curious about other people's opinions. So, what do you think of the JPM? Would you allow it in your campaign as is? Why or why not? Let's please avoid the "rollplaying vs. roleplaying" stuff, and no I'm not looking for a critique of my group's playing style or anything like that. Is this class a little too powerful? Ohh and FYI, I keep coming back to one thing as I look at it in my book. I think, "If this were a PrC published before the ToB came out, it would have the same abilities, including something that duplicates the stances, and the Empowering/Quickening Strike. It would still lose two caster levels, and people would still take it." Thanks in advance.
Encard 02-19-07, 11:28 PM	1. It's an easy entry class. A single level of Martial adept or three feats if you really want 18 vs 17 CL. If the character is a primary initiator, simply add 3 levels of a main casting class, or maybe precocious apprentice-esque tricks. 3 feats is a lot, given that most characters only ever have 7. It's especially a lot for a gish - gish builds tend to be badly strapped for feats as is. If you want to finish off with four more levels of some gish PrC, you may have another feat requirement to meet. I think the 1 level entry requirement is more the norm, same as it is for most gish PrC's I've seen. 2. Loses two CL's. This means the JPM still gets 9th level spells even if he takes the level of a ToB class to qualify. I'll be the first to admit that losing those 2 or 3 levels will hurt, but that is the only drawback to the class I see. Losing initiator levels and CL's, you mean. 3. Assuming one level of either Warblade or Crusader, will end up with a cleric BAB at 20th (15). If you want a primary ToB build, then you end up with 18 BAB. You could also do ToB Class 1/Wizard 5/JPM 10/Other Gish PrC 4. You'll probably have BAB +17, CL 16 or 17. Not much difference here from most similar builds, except that a number I've seen will top those two numbers. 4. Ends up being a 15th level initiator and 17 level caster. Pretty sweet deal, no matter how you look at it. Sure. That's a similar argument to saying that the Clr/Wiz/Mystic Theurge is great, though - you end up as a 13th divine caster and 17th arcane (or the other way around)! Of course, if you look at it another way, you're basically a 15th and a 17th level character with the HP and actions per round of one - at best, that puts your effective EL at 18. It's nice, but you're losing top level maneuvers, some effectiveness from your lower level maneuvers, and some higher-end casting ability. 5. Arcane wrath completely breaks the mold for the sac'ing arcane spells for melee damage mechanic. D10's?! Also gets two stances which help offset the level loss. Assuming practiced spellcaster (and anyone in JPM would take it), ends up 21 CL at 20th, or 23 for fire spells. Ohh, and don't forget that DR 10/evil you get ALL-DAY for one 5th level slot. Arcane Wrath is on a single attack. Compare that to Arcane Strike, which is on all attacks that round, and can be higher than a +4 bonus to attack. At higher levels, Arcane Strike wins out by a long shot. Practiced Spellcaster only raises your CL up to your HD, so I don't know that it'd stack the way you say with the JPM's +CL abilities. DR 10/evil all day long is only if you never want to use another stance, and it does cost you a spell slot - it's nice, but it kills a lot of your versatility and negates a substantial portion of your abilities from your martial adept side. 6. Empowering strike and Quickening strike are both all-day free metamagic. There are plenty of gish PrC's that would KILL for that. Yeah, they're very nice abilities. Keep in mind that they're once per encounter, though. 7. Gets Devoted Spirit and Desert Wind. Okay, so JPM gets to heal himself/allies with one, and increase his maneuverability and melee damage with the other. Devoted Spirit is pretty awesome. Desert Wind is arguably the least effective of the disciplines for damage, since it's all fire-based. You won't be lacking for maneuvers to choose, but you don't get many and your selection isn't too great. If you didn't start off with Devoted Spirit maneuvers - i.e. if you didn't come in with Martial Study feats/a Crusader level - you'll need to spend your limited maneuvers gained on low-level ones first. You'll also never get the highest tier of maneuvers, so no Heal or giant explosion for you. All in all, both the DM and I feel this class is over-powered as designed. We are mostly happy with the TOB at large, but this just doesn't sit right. What have I missed in my analysis? Is there something that is actually weak about this PrC? The player who wants to take the class seems content to reassert "it's fine" endlessly, but at this point I'm curious about other people's opinions. It's a great class. I don't believe that it's massively overpowered, though - although you get some very nice abilities, some of the other gish builds get things that the JPM doesn't - for example, casting in armor besides a twilight mithril chain shirt, more feats, high BAB/CL/HP, and certain miscellaneous abilities. Mind you, I'd love to play a JPM - it's one of the first things I think of when considering gish characters - but I don't think that it'd break the game. Honestly, a regular ol' full caster can probably do more, particularly one of the divine/Divine Metamagic bent.
Mister_Sinister 02-19-07, 11:35 PM	I would allow it as-is. Here is why: 1) It requires 8 ranks in a skill, IIRC. That's IMPOSSIBLE before level 5. Furthermore, yes, it is easy-entry. So's abjurant champion, spellsword and EK, all of which power gish builds. There is absolutely no reason why this should be any harder to access than those. 2) Abjurant champion loses NO CLs. Spellsword, properly taken, loses NO CLs. EK loses ONE. Again, measuring by their yardstick, JPM is weak, not powerful. Furthermore, since you need 1 level in a martial adept class as well, by simply maxing it out, you're capping yourself to only getting 9th level spells at 20th. And this is assuming you use NO padding which hits caster levels. Since you get these spells a full 2 levels before full casters, you're not nearly as powerful as they are. 3) By the same token, martial class 1/caster class 6/ spellsword 1/abjurant champion 5/EK 8 gives you BAB of +18, caster level 9th with same level kill. JPM =/= crazy, it's actually LESS powerful than this 'vanilla gish'. And I know you get manouvres, your list is limited and fighting classes are weaker than casters anyhow, which is the whole purpose of making a gish. 4) Yeah, so? Using anima mage, I can make a binder with 8th level vestiges (highest) and a caster with 9th level spells. Using ardent, I can make a cerebremancer with 9th level psionics AND 9th level spells. Using arcane trickster, I can make a rogue with 9th level spells and 7 dice of sneak attack. Multiple-threat classes are powerful, but this isn't broken, it's average for such a class, maybe even slightly subpar. 5) All of the things you mention may be true. Then you remember that by that stage, druids are spending all day in collossal dragon form, rogues aren't seen for months on end, not to mention casting as well as the wizard, and speaking of wizards, they end combats before they even begin. Your doing of some d10s of damage, having DR/evil all day, and having caster level up high is not even close to the realm of broken. 6) Yeah, the fact you have to burn strikes for them does mitigate it somewhat. Then again, as I said, you're mitigating this a LOT by losses elsewhere from a plain arcane gish. Good, yes. Broken, no. 7) AND NOTHING ELSE. No White Raven, no Iron Heart, no Stone Dragon. Not to mention very few manouevres, so you never hit many of the really good ones. Ever. Overall, your DM and you are vastly overstating the JPM's power. Broken is the Planar Shepherd of 6:1 time and the CoDzilla. This is on the same level as most arcane gishes, the Radiant Band-Aid of Pelor or Frenzied Berserker builds. Powerful, but not broken. Give it a try. I'm playing a gish like this now, and let me tell you, it's one heck of a challenge. It's not as powerful as you may suspect, particularly at early levels, when you need to be skillful and ingenuitive. I'm not trying to tell you how to play the game here, not at all. I'm just saying to give it a chance, and you'll see that it's actually one of the most sensible gish classes ever designed, unlike 1-level-dip spellsword or abjurant cheese-pion.
Totentanz 02-19-07, 11:53 PM	Both of you made some good points, I have just a few responses. Encard, good catch on the Arcane Wrath. I should have double-checked the CW feat myself, but oh well. Makes me much more comfortable with the ability. MS, most of your opinions are spot on. Though, I have to say that using Planar Shepherd as the measuring stick for broken is probably a bad idea. :D That, and when I compare classes I generally don't think about the obvious DMM cheese etc. I didn't really WANT to say something was wrong with it, I was just seeing it from a somewhat skewed perspective. Seeing it as just another gish, and a relatively weak one at that, it really isn't bad. I had this feeling the entire time I was missing something, and I was. Many somethings. Thanks for the help.
Barloch 02-20-07, 10:53 PM	Remember theyre relatively fragile compared to other melee classes as well. Only a d6 hit die and no special armored casting abilities (unless they're a warmage base). And they still only have one standard action a round, they're awesom I'll grant that but I wouldn't count them among some of the more broken prcs out there.
Johannixx 02-22-07, 11:53 PM	I'm planning on using JPM as the capstone to a gish build I've been tinkering with for a long while: Rogue2/Swashbuckler3/Half-elf Figher2 (RoD substitution levels)/Mage(Diviner)1/Warblade2/AbjurantChampion5/JPM5 The character won't even get spells until 9th level, but by 20th should be fairly well-rounded, with Evasion; Uncanny Dodge; Int bonus to Ref saves & damage; reasonable stealth; a few low-to-mid-level maneuvers from Diamond Mind, Iron Heart and Desert Wind; 5th-level arcane spells @ CL 19; and reasonable TWF abilities (via the half-elf racial fighter levels). He'll be reasonably effective at most things, but specialized in nothing. Kind of like a straight 20th-level bard... ;)
Timespike 02-23-07, 01:06 AM	The proper use, in my opinion at least, of Jade Phoenix Mage is to dip arcane for 3 or 4 leves and go in primarily as an initiator (preferably crusader, so you can keep advancing devoted spirit maneuvers). If you're going in primarily as a spellcaster... ...those maneuvers basically add up to a few extra spells per day.
Johannixx 02-25-07, 05:00 PM	I think going in as a swordsage with a dip of a few levels in arcane classes would also be useful, as the higher BAB of the JPM would allow you to be a more effective combatant, and you can build up Desert Wind maneuvers. Of course, you may find that you encounter fire-resistant critters with a startling regularity if your DM's worth his salt...