Post/Author/DateTime	Post
starshooter2002 02-13-08, 07:05 PM	Mage Slayer First attempt lets go go go! "They say Prospero doesn't have the power anymore, that someone is holding his hand..." "Well I wouldn't be saying that too loudly.." Gerax to Svent three days before Prospero's assassination http://www.lynchs.com/images/412.jpg The mage slayer is a master of controlling wayward spell casters. He relies on his speed and stealth to catch the magic user off guard. He catches them unaware so as to minimize their ability to protect themselves. Mage slayers can be spies, killers for hire, or vengeful stalkers. Most rogues and monks who choose this class become classic assassins specializing in quickly striking from the shadows. Barbarians take this class when they finally become frustrated at being hit with powerful magicks and wish to retaliate. Due to the ever increasing power of magick, mage slayers are becoming increasingly common among the seedier areas of cities. As NPC’s mage slayers tend to be mercenaries or agents that extort powerful spell casters to do their bidding. Hit Dice: 1d8 Alignment: Any Requirements: Base Attack Bonus: +3 Skills: Hide 8 ranks, Move Silently 8 ranks, Spellcrafting 4 ranks Class Skills: Bluff, Craft, Decipher Script, Disguise, Escape Artist, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge Arcana, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spellcraft, Spot, Tumble, Use Magic Device, Use Rope. Skill Points at Each Level: 6 + Int modifier. Level BAB Fort Ref Will Fast Movement Special 1 +0 +0 +2 +2 +0 Mettle, Arcane Knowledge 2 +1 +0 +3 +3 +0 Sneak attack +1d6, Evasion 3 +2 +1 +3 +3 +5 Mage Slayer, Fast movement, Antimagic strike (1 time per encounter) 4 +3 +1 +4 +4 +5 Sneak attack +2d6, Detect Magic (60 ft) 5 +3 +1 +4 +4 +10 Spell Resistance, Rebound (Once per encounter) 6 +4 +2 +5 +5 +10 Sneak attack +3d6, Antimagic strike (2 times per encounter) 7 +5 +2 +5 +5 +15 Rebound (Twice per encounter) 8 +6/+1 +2 +6 +6 +15 Sneak attack +4d6, See the Invisible 9 +6/+1 +3 +6 +6 +20 Rebound (Three times per encounter), Antimagic strike (3 times per encounter) 10 +7/+2 +3 +7 +7 +20 Sneak attack +5d6, See through Fluff Class Features: Mettle(Ex): This works exactly as the Hexblade’s class feature. Arcane Knowledge (Ex): The mage slayer is adept at knowing what spells his foe will use against him, he gains a bonus to his spellcraft equal to half his class level rounded up. Evasion (Ex): This works exactly as the Rogue’s class feature, except if the Mage Slayer already has Evasion from other class levels, he gets Improved Evasion instead. Sneak Attack (Ex): This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name. The extra damage dealt increases by +1d6 every other level. If a mage slayer gets a sneak attack bonus from a different source, say assassin or rogue levels, the bonuses on damage stack. Fast Movement (Ex): The mage slayer is adept at catching fleeing mages when not restricted by medium or heavy armor. The speed increases as level increases and is displayed on the chart. Detect Magic (Su): The mage slayer can detect magic around him up to 60 feet at will starting at level 4. Mage Slayer(Ex): The mage slayer gains the ability to attack caster as if they are not defensively casting. The enemy caster becomes aware of this after the first attack. Spell Resistance (Ex): At 5th level the mage slayer gains spell resistance 15 + class level. Rebound (Su): The mage slayer may rebound a spell cast on him upon the caster. This ability can only work on spells targeting the individual. Follow the chart in the PHB for instructions on what happens when the caster has Spell Turning. Antimagic Strike (Ex): Starting at 3rd level the mage slayer may inflict either silence (stops verbal component requirements) or a minor paralyzing touch (stops somatic components) this effect lasts for rounds equal to how many times per encounter the mage slayer can use Antimagic Strike and can only be done once every 4 rounds. This can be used in the place of an attack of opportunity and requires a melee touch attack to hit that does not incur an attack of opportunity. See the Invisible (Su): The mage slayer at level 7 can see anyone under the effects of an invisibility. See through Fluff (Su): The mage slayer can see through illusions, automatically rerolling if he fails a save check.
Leress 02-13-08, 07:42 PM	Mage Slayer First attempt lets go go go! Okay Hit Dice: 1d6 Alignment: Any Requirements: Base Attack Bonus: +3 Saves: +4 Reflex from class levels (Dex modifier or items do not contribute to this) Skills: Move Silently 6 ranks, Hide 6 ranks So a rogue, expert(npc) and a ranger can enter this at 5th level. Okay Class Skills: Craft, Decipher Script, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Hide, Jump, Knowledge Arcana, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot, Tumble, Use Magic Device, Use Rope. Skill Points at Each Level: 6 + Int modifier. Okay, why does this class have forgery? Why doesn't this class have spellcraft? Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1 +0 +0 +2 +2 Spell Resistance I, Evasion, Know Thy Enemy 2 +1 +0 +3 +3 Sneak attack +1d6, Fast movement I 3 +2 +1 +3 +3 Spell Shift I 4 +3 +1 +4 +4 Sneak attack +2d6 5 +3 +1 +4 +4 Spell Resistance II 6 +4 +2 +5 +5 Sneak attack +3d6, Fast movement II 7 +5 +2 +5 +5 Spell Shift II 8 +6/+1 +2 +6 +6 Sneak attack +4d6 9 +6/+1 +3 +6 +6 10 +7/+2 +3 +7 +7 Sneak attack +5d6, Spell Resistance III, Fast movement III 11 +8/+3 +3 +7 +7 Spell Shift III 12 +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 Sneak attack +6d6 13 +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 14 +10/+5 +4 +9 +9 Sneak attack +7d6, Fast movement IV 15 +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +9 Spell Resistance IV, Spell Shift IV, Rebound Okay but let's look closer. Class Features: Spell Resistance (Ex): At 1st level and every 5th level after, the Mage slayer gains spell resistance against Arcane spells. This spell resistance raises as he gains spell resistance I, II, III, and IV. They become 15, 20, 25, 30 respectively. Okay, why have it name Spell resistance (i,ii,iii,iv) instead of just putting the number on there to simplify it. The spell resistance is good except since it only applies to arcane spells divine casters still kill you. Evasion (Ex): This works exactly as the Rogue’s class feature, except if the Mage Slayer already has Evasion from other class levels, he gets Improved Evasion instead. okay, getting improved evasion early. Know Thy Enemy (Ex): The mage slayer is adept at knowing what spells his foe may use against him. He may make a special spell identification check (d20) with a bonus equal to his mage slayer level + his Intelligence modifier to identify a spell being cast, this can be done as a free action. The DC against this check is 15 + Spell Level. *points to spellcraft skill* Sneak Attack (Ex): This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name. The extra damage dealt increases by +1d6 every other level. If a mage slayer gets a sneak attack bonus from a different source, say assassin or rogue levels, the bonuses on damage stack. Okay since I don't lose sneak attack dice. Fast Movement (Ex): The mage slayer is adept at catching fleeing mages. When not restricted by medium or heavy armor, the mage slayer gets a bonus of +5, +10.+15, or +20 to his movement. This doesn't even really matter when fighting most casters. Spell Shift (Su): The mage slayer is adept at hunting his prey, dodging his target, and disabling his foes. At third level and every 4 level following the mage slayer may choose a school of magic. The mage slayer gains a +5 competency bonus to identifying spells of the chosen spell’s school with his Know Thy Enemy class feature. As a free action a mage slayer may counter a spell he identifies once per round. The mage slayer is exhausted by this ability and does not receive a movement action the following round. The same of school can be chosen multiply times. This ability isn't that good since it is just a plain counter and you lose your movement. This hurts you more than the cast since they can just cast another spell that same round. Rebound (Su): Once per encounter a level 15 mage slayer may rebound a spell cast on a new target, this includes wand effects and other magical items but does not affect spell like abilities. The mage slayer must make a spell identification check to know the spell before he can rebound it. This needs to be cleared up, so the class can rebound any spell even if it is targeting the caster him/herself? Also why not spell like abilities since at higher levels that is what you will be hit with a lot. Overall this class isn't actually good at mage slaying and it would be better to just stay rogue. I doesn't have a way to shut down caster (for some strange reason it only has Spell resistance against arcane spells). Also with abilities that hurt you more than the caster that just isn't good.
dman11235 02-13-08, 10:05 PM	1) I'd give it spellcraft 4 ranks as a prereq, and up the hide and ms prereqs to 8 ranks. Also get rid of the reflex base save requirement. Thoose don't usually work as prereqs for PrCs. 2) Ditto Leresse on the skills. 3) Why 15 levels? It shouldn't be this many. 10 or 5 is the norm, and vary rarely does it stray from that. 3 is next most common, with two classes I can think of off hand. 7 and 13 are the next two, with a dragon PrC being 13 (Draconomicon?) and Initiate of the 7-fold veil being, well, 7. Also while I'm on this subject, the Occult Slayer is a mage killer PrC, so try not to double duty this shtick. 4) Know Thy Enemy is worthless. Throw it back, and maybe replace it with a bonus on spellcraft checks equal to1/2 your PrC level. 5) Spell Resistance should not progress like that. Give them SR=15+class levels, starting at level 5. And make it against both A and D. 6) Just put a value for the fast movement in the chart. Makes it easier. 7) Spell Shift is worthless for the first half, and overpowered the second. Throw it back. 8) You need to shoot those dead levels. And you need more abilities on killing mages and not being killed by them. This class needs Mettle (see the Hexblade). It also needs the ability to kill casters. Like Mage Slayer as a bonus feat or something. And more.
starshooter2002 02-13-08, 10:25 PM	Rebound does need some rewording, I will brain storm some ideas tonight. You are correct, Forgery really has no set purpose, I pretty much copy pasta'd the rogue list of Class Skills to come up with it, Forgery is out I agree. As for spell shifting I think it serves it's role really well. When was the last time you ever saw a wizard or sorcerer lose a concentration check, seriously. This was a away for a class to counter a caster without being a caster and still attack in the same turn. Rebound not working on spell like abilities made it so the Archmage prestige class still had a purpose and so he couldn't steal a dragon's breath weapon and whatnot. I think he is balanced. The "know thy enemy" is there for flavor reasons as well as not restricting an important class function to being regulated by a skill, imagine if fighters had to make balance checks before they swung a two handed great sword, it seems kinda ridiculous. Just my thoughts.
Leress 02-13-08, 10:42 PM	Rebound does need some rewording, I will brain storm some ideas tonight. Look at the "spell turning" spell You are correct, Forgery really has no set purpose, I pretty much copy pasta'd the rogue list of Class Skills to come up with it, Forgery is out I agree. Okay As for spell shifting I think it serves it's role really well. When was the last time you ever saw a wizard or sorcerer lose a concentration check, seriously. This was a away for a class to counter a caster without being a caster and still attack in the same turn. After using it, you can't move the caster still can. You need movement, the caster doesn't care about movement. Rebound not working on spell like abilities made it so the Archmage prestige class still had a purpose and so he couldn't steal a dragon's breath weapon and whatnot. A dragon's breath weapon is a supernatural ability. I think he is balanced. The "know thy enemy" is there for flavor reasons as well as not restricting an important class function to being regulated by a skill, imagine if fighters had to make balance checks before they swung a two handed great sword, it seems kinda ridiculous. Why make an ability when a skill does the same thing and is better, that is what is ridiculous. That wasn't a very good analogy. [/quote] Just my thoughts. Okay
dman11235 02-13-08, 10:44 PM	The last time I saw a mage fail a concentration check was when he faced a guy with Mage Slayer. Spellcasters can't succeed on the DC 40+ checks at level 10. and the breath weapon of dragons is (ex), it's not even (su), much less (sp). As for know thy enemy, there is nothing wrong with giving a bonus on a skill check as a class feature of this type. Besides, that's what spell craft is there to do. Balance is not there to determine if you fall over while swinging a GS, but spell craft is there to identify spells. If it's the main purpose of a feat, you should use it like that. And the Occult Slayer? It has spell craft as a prereq. So does Mage Slayer. Take a look at that PrC in CW. It has some ideas in it on good spell caster hatred. It's not a very good class, but it shows the niche well. CArc has Mage Slayer, which makes it so that casters cannot cast defensively, giving you an AoO. The damage you deal should be a lot. At least, enough so that 10+damage dealt+spell level is not possible to beat for them.
starshooter2002 02-13-08, 10:53 PM	I was originally disagreeing with the Spellcraft idea, because I didn't like the idea of the word itself, spell crafting, it has nothing to do with what this class is about, but you are right, both of you, it would stream line the class a lot more. I have access to the Complete Warrior, but I never opened it, I will read on the Occult Slayer and I didn't even know there was a feat called Mage Slayer lol. Mettle is good, and I might give the class "improved mettle" also I don't know if it exists, but it will be basically improved evasion but for fort and will. I am still against the idea of divine spell resistance as I think it restricts the class from being a party player as the cleric cannot cast his handy buffs and heals mid combat, unless the Mage Slayer decides to weaken himself from the one kind of person he is defended against.
luedre 02-13-08, 11:02 PM	You should actually add the mage slayer feat as a pre req. to the class, and maybe look at pierce magical protection and pierce magical concealment. Both are very good mage slayer feats and you may want to sneak those into it in exchange for one of the other items the class gives.
dman11235 02-13-08, 11:02 PM	No, repeat after me: "I will not ever give a class improved mettle, other than the possible epic prestige class. This epic PrC will not recieve improved mettle until the character is at least level 30 minimum." As for the divine SR, you need to do it. If this guy hates spell casters, why would he not get this ability? I do change SR a little (okay, a lot) in my games: I let SR (harmless) go through if the reciever want it to. Without my houserule, there is no difference between SR: harmless and SR: yes. EDIT: I don't agree that Mage Slayer should be a prereq. The feat does have BAB +3 as a prereq, so rogues can't enter this class until level 7 if it is a prereq. I'd give it to them as a bonus feat at level 3. also, I'd still lower the PrC to 10 levels.
starshooter2002 02-13-08, 11:16 PM	I am sorry first off I am not going to lower it to 10 levels, I like it as a specialization for a rogue. Almost like he goes rogue 5 then maxes this as his chosen specialization, I read some more on improved mettle now that I know it does exist and it is broken. I like your house rule, and though my group has been regularly against amending the core rules, it causes arguments, I think this one will go over relatively well. Also what book is the Mage Slayer feat in? and if you guys are going to keep giving feat suggestions, mind telling me what books they are in? I will update the first post soon btw.
Leress 02-13-08, 11:24 PM	Okay... Dman, Breath weapon is a Supernatural ability You people are making the class too complicated Spell Resistance] Spell resistance is the extraordinary ability to avoid being affected by spells. (Some spells also grant spell resistance.) To affect a creature that has spell resistance, a spellcaster must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) at least equal to the creature’s spell resistance. (The defender’s spell resistance is like an Armor Class against magical attacks.) If the caster fails the check, the spell doesn’t affect the creature. The possessor does not have to do anything special to use spell resistance. The creature need not even be aware of the threat for its spell resistance to operate. Only spells and spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance. Extraordinary and supernatural abilities (including enhancement bonuses on magic weapons) are not. A creature can have some abilities that are subject to spell resistance and some that are not. Even some spells ignore spell resistance; see When Spell Resistance Applies, below. A creature can voluntarily lower its spell resistance. Doing so is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Once a creature lowers its resistance, it remains down until the creature’s next turn. At the beginning of the creature’s next turn, the creature’s spell resistance automatically returns unless the creature intentionally keeps it down (also a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity). A creature’s spell resistance never interferes with its own spells, items, or abilities. A creature with spell resistance cannot impart this power to others by touching them or standing in their midst. Only the rarest of creatures and a few magic items have the ability to bestow spell resistance upon another. Spell resistance does not stack. It overlaps. See, that house is sorta pointless. Star, You shouldn't specialize it for just one class. A type of class sure, but not just one class. Also Mage slayer is in Complete Arcane and the Miniatures handbook. Don't just add feats to a class it just makes it point less to take it. Add real abilities to it.
starshooter2002 02-13-08, 11:37 PM	I know you can lower it, but it takes a standard action, something you might not have in battle, and it leaves you defenseless against incoming magical attacks, unless I lower when you get "rebound" or spell turning... I guess that would serve as a practical way to block spells when you are low on hp and need healing. * starts implementing *
dman11235 02-13-08, 11:45 PM	1) it takes a standard action to do so, and 2) when down, (harmless) and (yes) have the same effect, and when up, same effect. They are no different with one another. As for breath weapon, huh, I could have sworn (ex). My point still stands though, not a (sp). At least some breath weapons are (ex). Somewhere I saw (ex) breath weapons. Adding a feat like mage slayer to this class would be a good idea. It fits the theme really well, and they would probably take it anyway. Lots of PrCs have bonus feats like this. It's not a good idea to overdo it. If more than 1/4 or so of the class is bonus feats, it's probably not a good thing. That's one reason the fighter is so poorly designed. But the ranger is fairly well designed, especially in the first 10 levels, and gets bonus feats. This class does need to be shorter. The only other class I know of that is more than 10 levels (the 12, not 13 level from Draconomicon) was meant to be taken by dragons. Not PCs. Actually, it's every PrC in that section. But all of them have BAB requirements of a lot (highest is +30), and are meant only to be taken by dragons. Also, ten level PrCs are very exhausting. Usually, you can get a specialization done in 5 if you try hard enough. The Occult Slayer did it for mage killing. I think you can manage 10 for an alternative mage killer (a sneaky one as opposed to a warrior one). Finally, it closes off a lot of other options if you make it 15 levels. If it's 15, you might as well go the whole way and make it a base class. Note: do not do this. This is PrC territory, not base class territory.
starshooter2002 02-13-08, 11:53 PM	Big update coming to first post, I will be brainstorming what good ability I should great/defining for a "finisher." I am thinking something similar to death attack for assassins but silences instead.
dman11235 02-14-08, 12:00 AM	If I were you, I'd take that silence idea and grow on it. Make an ability that gets introduced early on (even level 1) that is a silencing strike. Make the DC equal to 10+class level+dex, int, or strength. Possibly as a capstone something like 3/day make a anti-magic strike instead of a silencing strike. Disallows magic usage for 3 rounds. Or something else. This is just an idea to get you thinking. I'm tired now though, so you won't get anymore feedback from me until tomorrow.
starshooter2002 02-14-08, 12:05 AM	Everything is up so far, He needs an ability for 6, 8, and 10 and I think he will be fine, I will update with ideas when I get them.
starshooter2002 02-14-08, 12:14 AM	If I were you, I'd take that silence idea and grow on it. Make an ability that gets introduced early on (even level 1) that is a silencing strike. Make the DC equal to 10+class level+dex, int, or strength. Possibly as a capstone something like 3/day make a anti-magic strike instead of a silencing strike. Disallows magic usage for 3 rounds. Hmm this sounds interesting how about I push sneak attack up to the odd levels and then put this at the even levels allowing it to stop spells of spell level equal to the Mage slayer's PrC level from being cast maxing out at 9 of course. The radius of this effect would be based on the level of the mage slayer too, it could be the movement of the mage slayer as the dependent, so assuming the mage slayer is a human with a movement of 30 at 10th level mage slayer he would have a 50 move speed and he would stop all spells from being cast in a 50 foot radius of his initial strike with this ability. no wait that is a horrible idea, a speed buff effect would break this pretty quickly, unless it actually acted like a true antimagic field and suppressed magic weapons too... Hmm I will begin brainstorming.
starshooter2002 02-15-08, 01:03 PM	Major update feel free to rip it apart :D.
starshooter2002 02-15-08, 01:06 PM	Oh important to note, I updated the ability list and upped the HD to a d8 from a d6. I was also thinking of throwing out Antimagic strike and squishing the list together to a 5 lvl prestige class more like the Occult Slayer, with a spell resistance at lvl 5 equal to 15 + half your CL. Oh, and I made Bluff and intimidate class skills.
dman11235 02-15-08, 02:33 PM	SR=15+1/2 CL is going to get worthless quickly. Just have it be 10+character level or HD. Also, Ati-magic Strike is a nice ability, but I'd change it to be just the silence/paralyzing. If you want it to be damage, don't have sneak attack, and replace the SA progression with AMS. I'd also add an ability that allows SA (or AMS) damage to be applied to an AoO against a casting spellcaster, even if the spell caster is not flanked or flat footed. That could be the distinction between Occult Slayer and this class. EDIT: This class has really come together. Good job. EDIT take 2: Keen sight is overpowered. Maybe detect magic constant? And later on see invisibility (not true seeing) possibly.
JaronK 02-15-08, 04:42 PM	Note that absolutely no class in existance gains Evasion at level 1. Since Evasion is useful for many builds (especially foculean lyracists) this is actually a huge deal. Evasion and Mettle at level 1 makes this too much of a dip class. Also, how much of a bonus does Fast Movement grant? JaronK
dman11235 02-15-08, 05:05 PM	The fast movement is in the table. He should say that in the ability though. And you are right about Evasion and Mettle.
starshooter2002 02-15-08, 05:07 PM	the speed boost is on the chart for fast movement near will saves, I was thinking of moving mettle up to a lvl 2 and I will be considering the revamp changes on the others, also note this is a prestige class and one that has skill requirements that do hinder how easily you can dip into them. Also nice idea on removing sneak attack for AMS, I will also consider this give me some time.
dman11235 02-15-08, 05:19 PM	You should say in the ability description for FM that the numbers are on the chart. Stupid people exist, that's why they need warning labels lik: "Warning, Keep Out Of Children" on a knife and "Warning, this is not underwear, do not put in pants" on a wristwatch.
starshooter2002 02-15-08, 08:44 PM	I made it more people friendly and exchanged keen sight, I changed AMS, I think this is the final version.
dman11235 02-15-08, 10:25 PM	Make the Detect Magic just the spell at will. You don't need all that other stuff in there. Either the spell at will, or constant as a (su). Either way is fine. Make Mage Slayer as the feat. Less confusion that way, and less cheapness. All you need to do is say that they gain the feat. For the see through illusions, how about they get a will save for illusions by just looking at them, without needing to interact? Much more balanced than the way it is now (doesn't completely screw over ilusionists and beguilers). I see you took out Mettle.