Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Endarrion 06-15-07, 06:54 PM	Final Copy! Preface: This all started with me wanting to play a goliath monk that specialized in grappling. First, I went to the What’s a Player to Do forum and asked for suggestions for prestige classes and feats and whatnot. I soon received a suggestion that I should take my query to the CharOps forum. I did so and the only advice I received was (basically) that grappling is stupid. I then decided to create my own prestige class and posted a bare bones version of it in the classes section of this very forum (I forgot there was a separate section for prestige classes, oops). I soon realized that what I had was very similar to a 10 level version of the Reaping Mauler prestige class, and that my very bare example of my class would receive very little commenting with there being so little to comment on. So I created this. I hope its not too much like the 10 level Reaping Mauler and I also hope that its balanced and makes grappling a slightly more viable option. I’d also like to note that this is my first original prestige class that I’ve ever posted on the Prestige classes forum. Furthermore, this class is based on the idea of a character who, when challenged by another, shows up for the duel and is laughed at for his lack of weapons. The mangler laughs as well, because he is already picturing himself throttling his opponents twisted, and soon to be lifeless, body with his bare hands. The Mangler Created by Endarrion http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ss_gallery/49123.jpg “I need naught but mine own hands to crush the life from your little body.” -Kithani Katho-Olavi, Goliath mangler Manglers are masters of unarmed grappling. They see weapons as excuses for weakness. A true test of might is one body pitted against another body. Manglers are always looking for a fight, for a physical challenge to overcome with their bodies. Most manglers are either fighters, monks, or barbarians. Paladins find the style too chaotic and bloodthirsty, while wizards, sorcerers, and bards usually do not have the physical capabilities necessary to become manglers. Rangers, clerics, druids, and rogues rarely become manglers. To qualify to become a Mangler, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria: Base Attack Bonus: +4 Fort Save: +5 Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Endurance, Die Hard. Special: Must have defeated an opponent by grappling without the use of weapons or the benefit of any spells. Base Attack Fort Ref Will Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 1. +1 +2 +0 +0 Agile wrestling, ultimate grappler 2. +2 +3 +0 +0 Expert Pin, unarmed strike 1d6 3. +3 +3 +1 +1 Focused DR +1/adamantine, slam, improved grab. 4. +4 +4 +1 +1 Counter Throw, sturdy 5. +5 +4 +1 +1 Focused DR +2/adamantine, Deadly Wrestler +1d6 6. +6 +5 +2 +2 One Against the World, unarmed strike 1d8 7. +7 +5 +2 +2 Focused DR +3/adamantine, overbearing 8. +8 +6 +2 +2 Too Close for Comfort 9. +9 +6 +3 +3 Focused DR +4/adamantine, Deadly Wrestler +2d6 10. +10 +7 +3 +3 Secret technique, unarmed strike 1d10 ________________________________________ __________________ Hit Die: d10 Class Skills: Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex). Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier. Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: A mangler does not gain proficiency with any weapons or armors. Special: All of the mangler's abilities only function while he is unarmed. If he wields a weapon he loses all of his class abilities and suffers a -2 morale penalty to all attacks and saving throws for 24 hours. He may still benefit from spells, however. Agile Wrestling: A mangler retains his Dexterity bonus to armor class even while grappling. He still loses his Dexterity bonus while in a pin, however. Ultimate Grappler: A mangler adds his class level as an insight bonus to all grapple checks. Unarmed Strike: Manglers are masters of unarmed combat and deal more damage than normal. At 2nd, 6th, and 10th level the amount of damage you do with your unarmed strike increases to 1d6, 1d8, and 1d10 respectively. See the monk class feature (PHB 41). If your unarmed already deals this amount of damage, increase the base damage to the next step indicated on the monk class table. Expert Pin: If a mangler does nothing but pin an opponent (does not try to deal damage, move, etc) he gains a cumulative +2 bonus to grapple checks each consecutive round he maintains a pin. For example, on the first round of a pin, he receives no bonus, on the second round he receives a +2, on the third a +4, etc. You cannot gain a bonus higher than +20 from Expert Pin. Slam: At third level, as a standard action, a mangler may make a single unarmed attack at his highest base attack bonus and deal 1.5 times his strength bonus in damage. Improved Grab: To use this ability a mangler must hit with his slam attack. This ability functions just as the improved grab ability described in the monster manual. Focused: A mangler is such a focused wrestler that, during a grapple, he gains the ability to shrug off damage. He gains DR equal to his Constitution modifier (if positive) +1/adamantine while grappling. This bonus increases by 1 every two levels to a maximum of DR +4/adamantine at level 9. Sturdy: Due to his intense training, a mangler is able to endure effects that would normally harm him. At fourth level a mangler may add his Constitution modifier (if positive) to his Reflex and Will saving throws. Counter Throw: When attacked and hit in combat, a mangler may decide to make a reflex save with a DC equal to his opponent’s attack roll. If he succeeds, he turns his opponents momentum against him and throws his opponent. The opponent lands prone in a chosen square adjacent to the mangler. The throw deals 1d6 damage + Strength bonus and counts as an immediate action. Deadly Wrestler: A mangler ... mangles his opponents while grappling. Starting at 5th level he adds 1d6 to the amount of damage he deals while in a grapple. He adds another 1d6 at level nine for a total of +2d6 damage to grapples. One Against the World: At sixth level the mangler improves in his ability to deal with multiple opponents. When grappled by at least two opponents a mangler may make a grapple check against a DC of 15 + 5 for each opponent in the grapple. If he succeeds, he pushes the opponents 10 feet back. If a wall or another character occupies the space that the enemy would be pushed into, the enemy falls prone in the square in front of the obstacle. Overbearing: A mangler's proficiency in grappling allows him to automatically deal unarmed damage while in a pin. Every time you start your turn with your opponent pinned, you may deal unarmed strike damage as a standard action with no grapple check (he still has to succeed in his grapple checks to continue the pin). You now gain the benefit of Expert Pin even while dealing damage. Too Close for Comfort: While grappling, a mangler adds his class level to the DC for opponents to cast spells while grappling. Also, if a foe is acting under the influence of any spell that enhances movement (Freedom of Movement etc) the Mangler may (as a move action) force his opponent to abandon cowardly tactics. Make a will save against a DC equal to 10 + the caster level of the spell plus the key ability of the caster to suppress the spell for the duration of the grapple. If the mangler succeeds, the spell is suppressed for the duration of the grapple and resumes after the grapple assuming the duration of the spell has not run out (If a spell lasts 5 rounds and the mangler grapples the opponent for 6 rounds, the spell does not resume as its duration has already run out). If the mangler loses the check, he may not make another check against the same opponent for 1d6 rounds. Secret Technique: At 10th level a mangler’s skill at grappling culminates in the form of a Secret Technique. A mangler must choose one technique from the following list: Devastating Slam: As a standard action, make a slam attack. If you hit you deal double damage and your opponent must make a fortitude save against a DC = 15 + your strength modifier or be stunned for 1d6 rounds. Bear Hug: If a mangler can maintain a pin for 3 consecutive rounds the opponent is considered to be suffocating. Flying Foe: Your counter throw ability improves. Now on a successful counter throw, you fling your opponent into a square you choose up to 5 feet away per 2 points of strength bonus. You must be able to lift your opponents weight over your head and have line of effect to the square. The damage dealt by the throw improves to 2d6 + twice your strength bonus.
Tuhljin 06-15-07, 08:17 PM	Interesting concept. I'll be watching to see how this one develops. As my first suggestion, I'd say you should put a cap on the bonus gained from Expert Pin. It can be a rather large cap, like +20, but I don't think - however unlikely such a situation might be - that you should be able to gain a bonus of +100 or something ridiculous like that, no matter how long you hold an opponent down.
Endarrion 06-15-07, 08:18 PM	Good idea. I'm taking it into consideration :)
Aage 06-15-07, 08:25 PM	I'd change the DC for crippling pin to 10 + class level + strength modifier (or con, if you prefer) and then rework improved crippling pin in some way... As it stands, crippling pin DC is kind of low compared to most PrC abilities (which usually are 10 + level + ability)... Otherwise, interesting concept... I'll try to take a look at it from time to time...
Endarrion 06-15-07, 08:29 PM	I'd change the DC for crippling pin to 10 + class level + strength modifier (or con, if you prefer) and then rework improved crippling pin in some way... As it stands, crippling pin DC is kind of low compared to most PrC abilities (which usually are 10 + level + ability)... Otherwise, interesting concept... I'll try to take a look at it from time to time... Thanks for the reply! As far as the save DC for crippling pin... I thought it would be too high if I did what you're suggesting... I mean, a 20th level character only has a base Fort save of +12. I'm afraid of making it too powerful... but I'll still consider the suggestion.
Aage 06-15-07, 08:34 PM	As a reference: The save for 9th level spells are 19 + ability (and this can be increased thorugh feats)... The assasin death attack has 10 + level + ability... So, IMO, it wouldn't be to much... Remember that a character has an ability score and probably magic items in addition to those +12
Endarrion 06-15-07, 08:37 PM	As a reference: The save for 9th level spells are 19 + ability (and this can be increased thorugh feats)... The assasin death attack has 10 + level + ability... So, IMO, it wouldn't be to much... Remember that a character has an ability score and probably magic items in addition to those +12 You make a good point. I think I'll go ahead and change that then. Especially if a Death Attack has a higher DC than crippling pin which just paralyzes. I'll also go ahead and put a cap on Expert Pin as suggested by Tuhljin.
Endarrion 06-16-07, 08:28 AM	I updated the save DC for the crippling pin ability and put a cap on the expert pin ability. I also added a hitdie and class skills which I totally forgot about when I first posted the PrC :doh:
Mordin 06-16-07, 01:49 PM	Very cool much better than the Mauler. And it looks quite balanced.
Endarrion 06-16-07, 02:21 PM	Thanks! But there is one thing I really need some feedback on: Are the three secret techniques all viable options for a character or does one seem obviously better or worse than the others?
Endarrion 06-16-07, 10:49 PM	One more question: What are the thoughts on making this PrC able to multiclass freely with Monk?
Soahc 06-16-07, 11:47 PM	You've done quite an amazing job on this, this class looks amazing enough to be published, it seems balanced enough. Only thing I'd suggest is making the skills per level 2 + Int a level. but it really doesn't make that big of a deal. Very well done
Aage 06-17-07, 02:22 AM	Nah, keep the skills at 4 + Int... 2 + Int is really pathetic and just... sad About the secret techniques, they all seem interesting enough to be taken. As for internal balance, the only thing I might see is that bear hug might be a little underpowered... not sure, but perhaps lower it to 3 rounds? About the monk multiclass, I don't see why not... The monk multiclass rule is a strange one anyway
Endarrion 06-17-07, 08:18 AM	Thanks for the compliments and the feedback. Now I realize why I put the Bear Hug at 5 rounds- you only have to maintain a hold, not a pin, to start the ability. Still... the assassin's death attack only requires him to study his opponent for three rounds. Hmmm, I'll have to think about it.
Mordin 06-17-07, 02:06 PM	On the Bear Hug you also have to take into account that while pining the opponent you are also gaining a +2 bonus each round. And as for the assassin's Death Attack at high levels watching someone for 3 round isn't that hard actually grabing someone or something can be very difficult so making it 3 round instead of 5 wouldn't be that big of a deal IMO.
Endarrion 06-18-07, 10:16 AM	Edited the Bear Hug to only take 3 rounds instead of 5. Any other comments?
Dean 06-18-07, 11:27 PM	As a grappler outside of the game i love it,i am always looking for a grappling class that i really like and this one is quite good. I have always felt grappling was underused and underpowered in D&D
LordFlatulence 06-19-07, 01:36 AM	A truly admirable job done here. I'd always wondered if someone would write a class about grappling that I'd be interested in, and I do not like the Reaping Mauler much. I think it might just need some reigning in: the class level bonus to grappling is pretty powerful, and the consecutive bonuses can stack up to be quite deadly. Also, that counter throw might need to be a limited no. of uses per day, or perhaps a ready action. It's just a bit over the top that every time someone hits you they have to fear being knocked prone and damaged. A hasted 20th level fighter would be in fear of having to have 5 checks to be knocked prone made against him. And you should just specify melee attacks. It's obvious, but just in case. Splendid job! PS. Also, imagine levels in mangler and reaping mauler together! Holding a pin long enough (which is no problem for a mangler) causes the mauler ability to kill the opponent! :eek:
Endarrion 06-19-07, 08:35 AM	As a grappler outside of the game i love it,i am always looking for a grappling class that i really like and this one is quite good. I have always felt grappling was underused and underpowered in D&D A truly admirable job done here. I'd always wondered if someone would write a class about grappling that I'd be interested in, and I do not like the Reaping Mauler much. I think it might just need some reigning in: the class level bonus to grappling is pretty powerful, and the consecutive bonuses can stack up to be quite deadly. Also, that counter throw might need to be a limited no. of uses per day, or perhaps a ready action. It's just a bit over the top that every time someone hits you they have to fear being knocked prone and damaged. A hasted 20th level fighter would be in fear of having to have 5 checks to be knocked prone made against him. And you should just specify melee attacks. It's obvious, but just in case. Splendid job! PS. Also, imagine levels in mangler and reaping mauler together! Holding a pin long enough (which is no problem for a mangler) causes the mauler ability to kill the opponent! :eek: Thanks for the replies! LordFlatulence: First off, the Counter Throw ability IS limited: it counts as your attack of opportunity for the round and you still need to succeed at beating your opponents attack roll with a grapple check. Heck, theres a feat that allows you to knock your opponent down any time they miss. Your other suggestions are noted and will be taken into consideration :) Thanks again for the comments guys!
LordFlatulence 06-19-07, 06:28 PM	Ah! Sorry, didn't notice that attacks of opportunity thing, sorry about that. Regardless, it's pretty good that at least once per round, without having to use an action, can knock an opponent prone. Re: Bear Hug; do they immediately count as suffocating, or do they count as having no air?
Tweedledope 06-19-07, 11:32 PM	Unbelievable work here. This has seriously made me want to play a grappler...and, it actually meshes quite well with the Reaping Mauler class. This begs my next question, have you seen the Real Reaping Mauler (http://www.wakinglands.com/htm_files/the_prestige_classes_page.htm) as designed by the creator? Never mind, I read your Preface... A quick side note...I would seriously change the HD to either d10 or d12...it's not horribly game breaking to increase the HD (rule of averages says that a d10 is only 1 HP more/level than a d8). Also, you'll be in the literal THICK of melee, you really need some strong HD. Otherwise, this is superb work. -=Tweedledope=-
Flay Crimsonwind 06-20-07, 12:08 AM	[size=1] Focused: A mangler is such a focused wrestler that, during a grapple, he gains the ability to shrug off damage. He gains DR equal to his Constitution bonus(if any) +1/- while grappling. This bonus increases by 1 every two levels to a maximum of DR 4/- at level 9. I think you mean DR +4/- at level 9. Otherwise, why bother having the con bonus converted to DR, cause it probably wouldn't ever increase...
theotherdraxen 06-20-07, 12:11 AM	Very nice PrC! Instead of unarmed strike improvements, maybe you should just require them to have Superior Unarmed Strike or grant it to them as a Bonus Feat (it's in Tome of Battle). The counter-throw ability is a little powerful. You might want to make that an immediate action, because once thrown, an enemy is out of actions. Also, he needs to be able to break Freedom of Movement. As for the final abilities...improved critical pin is the best one, since paralysis is a save-or-die effect. The others are nice, but IMO, not worth it. A very good job you've done here. It's a grappling PrC that actually makes grappling worthwhile at higher levels. You've done a good job making this powerful without being overpowering.
Sharp_Claw 06-20-07, 01:35 AM	1st off all, kudos on what appears to be a very well-rounded and thought out PrC. However: Also, he needs to be able to break Freedom of Movement. Now, I love a grappler as much as the next fella (what is it about grappling that makes us all want to try making a good build, or homebrew class?), but without a way to stave off FoM, a caster is gonna blow your entire strategy out of the water. It's really a shame that that spell is so accessible.
ancalimohtar 06-20-07, 01:57 AM	Followed a link from the CO board. Hope I provide some useful insights from an optimizer:Ultimate Grappler: A mangler adds his class level as an insight bonus to all grapple checks.This one ability plus full-BAB makes this class worth it. Maybe half class level? Not sure. Unarmed Strike: A mangler’s class levels stack with monk levels to determine unarmed strike damage, but nothing else (flurry of blows, AC bonus, etc). If a mangler does not have any levels in monk, then his unarmed strike does 1d6 damage (or improves one step, whichever is greater) and this damage increases by one step every 2 levels (1d8 at 3rd level, 1d10 at 4th etc). The special damage gained from this class ONLY APPLIES DURING GRAPPLES, otherwise, use the characters normal unarmed damage for normal unarmed strikes.This ability is quite convoluted. Stacks with monk levels. Except for flurry, AC, etc. Except when you don't have monk, it just increases every two levels. Except the whole thing only applies during grapples. I appreciate that you are doing this for balance, but try to make it a simple ability in addition to a balanced ability. Why the focus on unarmed? A lot of--I dare say half or more of all--grappling is done with natural weapons or light weapons. How about just dropping this ability and adding a flat damage bonus while grappling? +X unnamed bonus to all damage rolls done while in a grapple, where X increases from 1 to 5 throughout the progression. Simple. Expert Pin: A mangler gains a cumulative +2 bonus to grapple checks each consecutive round he maintains a pin. For example, on the first round of a pin, he receives no bonus, on the second round he receives a +2, on the third a +4, etc. You cannot gain a bonus higher than +20 from Expert Pin.I like it. Focused: A mangler is such a focused wrestler that, during a grapple, he gains the ability to shrug off damage. He gains DR equal to his Constitution bonus(if any) +1/- while grappling. This bonus increases by 1 every two levels to a maximum of Constitution bonus (if any) + 4/- at level 9.Fixed. Counter Throw: When attacked and hit in melee, a mangler may decide to make a grapple check with a DC equal to his opponent’s attack roll. If he succeeds, he turns his opponents momentum against him and throws his opponent. The opponent lands prone in a chosen square adjacent to the mangler. The throw deals 1d6 damage + Strength bonus and counts as the mangler’s attack of opportunity for the round (or one attack of opportunity for the round in the case of Combat Reflexes).Cool concept, but a few things to think about: 1) Every mangler will want to lower his AC in order to get hit by weak rolls and then bone the opposition. Not necessarily the best of incentives. 2) What happens when you throw an opponent into a square occupied by a wall, an ally, or another opponent? 3) Make sure you make it clear it only uses up an AoO, and is not actually, in fact, an AoO, because then you could really abuse it. (Sidestep, etc.) Crippling Pin: If a mangler can pin an opponent for 3 consecutive rounds his opponent must make a fortitude save or become paralyzed for 1d4 rounds. The save DC is equal to 10 + the mangler’s class level + Strength modifier.I'm torn between thinking it's too powerful and thinking it's fine. Hmm. Strength Bonus: A mangler’s rigorous training manifests itself as a +2 inherent bonus to his strength score at 8th level.Careful. It's not an inherent bonus to strength. You want to say the mangler's "Strength score increases by 2," which means STR simply changes to a value that happens to be 2 above what it was. Inherent bonuses cap at 5, and there are only two ways of getting them, wishes and tomes. Improved Crippling Pin: The mangler now adds one and a half times his Strength modifier to the crippling pin’s fort save DC and the crippling pin now lasts for 1d6 rounds.Too powerful, for sure. Bear Hug: If a mangler can maintain a hold for 3 consecutive rounds the opponent is considered to be suffocating.Uh, problem. When you say "maintain a hold," you are using new terminology. Do you mean stay in a grapple, or do you mean maintain a pin? Also, what do you mean by suffocating? You mean that the guy starts making the CON checks, or you mean that the guy skips those checks and immediately begins suffocating, falling unconsciousness (0 hp) on the first round, -1 the next round, and death the third? I assume you mean that 3 rounds in a regular grapple (no pin) and the opponent starts making checks. This is a bit silly, as you are just, with all of these abilities, forcing the opponent to make dozens of rolls over and over and if he fails any of them, it's game over. Flying Foe: Your counter throw ability improves. Now on a successful counter throw, you fling your opponent into a square you choose up to 5 feet away per 2 points of strength bonus, but you must be able to lift your opponents weight over your head. The damage dealt by the throw improves to 2d6.Pretty cool, and not overpowered. Overall, I think the PrC is kind of cool, with some balancing issues. I think you should get rid of some of the "save or die" mechanics and focus on other cool stuff you can do while "wrassling." For example, how about being able to move your full speed while grappling instead of half? Or being able to take 5-ft steps without succeeding on an opposed check? Or retaining the ability to TWF, or retaining your ability to threaten squares (may be too powerful), or rapidly (in the first or second round) impose some kind of debuff on the target (you wrung his neck a little, he's now hacking and coughing, and now your best option is not to continue to grapple him but move on and attempt to grapple the next guy), etc., etc.
Endarrion 06-20-07, 08:12 AM	ancalimohtar: I was thinking of changing Ultimate Grappler to +half class levels. Probably a definite change now. How about adding 1d6 unnamed bonus on damage to all attacks during a grapple? What would a good progression for that be? Will fix text for DR. Why is crippling pin so powerful (or the improved version)? At fifth level a reaping mauler can outright kill an opponent at fifth level and at first an assassin can do it. What would a recommended change be? Basically, if the opponent can't end the bear hug in 3 rounds, he suffocates. He is considered to be in the first round of suffocation (0HP and unconscious.) The mangler would still have to maintain the bear hug for 3 rounds to kill the opponent though. A "hold" is the first step of grappling after the first successful grapple check, maybe I should change it to a pin? Ok, this one trick pony needs some revising. Cool beans. I like all the help I'm getting! To everyone else: thanks for the suggestions and keep them coming!
Tweedledope 06-20-07, 09:51 AM	I like this class so much, I introduced it over to my home...the CO Boards... Grappling...not just for mislead monks anymore (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=870329) I have an idea that might help you with Freedom of Movement. A caster level check opposed by your grapple check...if it fails, you penetrate their FoM and initiate as normal. Replace the lvl 8 Strength bonus with that and you're gravy.
Endarrion 06-20-07, 04:57 PM	I like this class so much, I introduced it over to my home...the CO Boards... Grappling...not just for mislead monks anymore (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=870329) I have an idea that might help you with Freedom of Movement. A caster level check opposed by your grapple check...if it fails, you penetrate their FoM and initiate as normal. Replace the lvl 8 Strength bonus with that and you're gravy. I was going to do exactly that. You read my mind :)
Endarrion 06-20-07, 05:43 PM	Revision These are all the things that are being revised for the final Mangler. New Abilities Mangler: At 5th and 9th level the mangler adds 1d6 to the amount of unarmed damage he does during a grapple. Bonus Feats: At 3rd and 7th level a mangler may choose a bonus feat from the following list of feats: Clever Wrestling (CW), Combat Reflexes, Earth's Embrace (CW), Fists of Iron (CW), Improved Toughness (CW), and Power Attack. A mangler must meet the prerequisites for these feats. Too Close for Comfort: (8th level, replaces boost to Str) While grappling, a mangler adds 5 to the DC for opponents to cast spells while grappling. Also, if a foe is acting under the influence of any spell that enhances movement(Freedom of Movement etc) the Mangler may make a grapple check opposed by a caster level check to suppress the spell for the duration of the grapple (this is a free action). The spell is suppressed for the duration of the grapple and resumes after the grapple assuming the duration of the spell has not run out (If a spell lasts 5 rounds and the mangler grapples the opponent for 6 rounds, the spell does not resume as its duration has already run out). thanks to tweedledope for this suggestion Retooled Abilities/Replacement Abilities Unarmed Strike: Manglers are masters of unarmed combat and deal more damage than normal. At 1st, 4th, and 8th level the amount of damage you do with your unarmed strike increases one step (1d6-> 1d8, etc). Mangler levels no longer stack with monk levels, and the unarmed damage no longer only applies to grapples Bear Hug: Instead of suffocating, the opponent is now considered "fatigued" (-2 Str and Dex, can't charge or run) for 5 rounds. One Against the World: When grappled by at least two opponents a mangler may make a grapple check against a DC of 10 + 5 for each opponent in the grapple. If he succeeds, he pushes the opponents 10 feet back. If a wall or another character occupies the space that the enemy would be pushed into, the enemy falls prone in the square in front of the obstacle. replaces the first form of Crippling Pin at 6th level Crippling Pin: If a mangler maintains a pin for 3 consecutive rounds the opponent must make a Fort save against a DC of 10 + one and a half times the mangler's Str modifier. If the opponent fails, he takes a -4 penalty to his Dexterity score and his movement is reduced by 5 ft for 1d6 rounds. this ability replaces the Improved Crippling Pin ability
Endarrion 06-22-07, 10:01 AM	No comments on the reworked abilities?
Tweedledope 06-22-07, 10:06 AM	Ditch Mangler...I like the Unarmed Strike progression and more and more PrCs are offering similar advancements. (Have you seen Fist of the Forest?!) Bonus Feats have never been my cup of tea for a PrC...it just seems to say, "I have no idea what else to put at this level so...here...have a feat!" Too Close for Comfort is very well written and nice. The revisions to Crippling Pin is nice (paralyzation is SO powerful). Also, why did you change Bear Hug? I really like it when someone suffocates...it seems to make more sense than fatigue. Revision These are all the things that are being revised for the final Mangler. New Abilities Mangler: At 5th and 9th level the mangler adds 1d6 to the amount of unarmed damage he does during a grapple. Bonus Feats: At 3rd and 7th level a mangler may choose a bonus feat from the following list of feats: Clever Wrestling (CW), Combat Reflexes, Earth's Embrace (CW), Fists of Iron (CW), Improved Toughness (CW), and Power Attack. A mangler must meet the prerequisites for these feats. Too Close for Comfort: (8th level, replaces boost to Str) While grappling, a mangler adds 5 to the DC for opponents to cast spells while grappling. Also, if a foe is acting under the influence of any spell that enhances movement(Freedom of Movement etc) the Mangler may make a grapple check opposed by a caster level check to suppress the spell for the duration of the grapple (this is a free action). The spell is suppressed for the duration of the grapple and resumes after the grapple assuming the duration of the spell has not run out (If a spell lasts 5 rounds and the mangler grapples the opponent for 6 rounds, the spell does not resume as its duration has already run out). thanks to tweedledope for this suggestion Retooled Abilities/Replacement Abilities Unarmed Strike: Manglers are masters of unarmed combat and deal more damage than normal. At 1st, 4th, and 8th level the amount of damage you do with your unarmed strike increases one step (1d6-> 1d8, etc). Mangler levels no longer stack with monk levels, and the unarmed damage no longer only applies to grapples Bear Hug: Instead of suffocating, the opponent is now considered "fatigued" (-2 Str and Dex, can't charge or run) for 5 rounds. One Against the World: When grappled by at least two opponents a mangler may make a grapple check against a DC of 10 + 5 for each opponent in the grapple. If he succeeds, he pushes the opponents 10 feet back. If a wall or another character occupies the space that the enemy would be pushed into, the enemy falls prone in the square in front of the obstacle. replaces the first form of Crippling Pin at 6th level Crippling Pin: If a mangler maintains a pin for 3 consecutive rounds the opponent must make a Fort save against a DC of 10 + one and a half times the mangler's Str modifier. If the opponent fails, he takes a -4 penalty to his Dexterity score and his movement is reduced by 5 ft for 1d6 rounds. this ability replaces the Improved Crippling Pin ability
LordFlatulence 06-22-07, 11:41 PM	I like the revision, but I also think that the bonus feats are a bit of an ad hoc addition to a dead level sort of thing. The original Bear Hug was also preferable, I think. The Unarmed Strike progression says it increases one step (assumably as increasing one size category), but does not stack with monk levels. So what if you have levels in monk and have unarmed strike damage of d8 or something? Does this increase by one step, or does the d3 base damage without monk increase? With one against the world, you could implement some ability involving slamming people's heads together. I like it as it is now, but that would be a really interesting addition. :D With Crippling Pin, what is the use of this new ability? If you've maintained a pin for three rounds, you're not going to let go just to watch them stagger around. If you keep them pinned (as far as I remember) they will lose their Dexterity bonus to AC anyway, and they can't move either. As for Too Close for Comfort, this check highly favours the Mangler, making it an unbalanced ability. The mangler's BAB will be close to the caster level by itself, and on top of it the Mangler is getting their (likely very high) Strength modifier, their size bonus, their class abilities that give it bonuses and Improved Grapple. Just to make it slightly more balanced, make it Grapple bonus vs. Caster level + Casting ability modifier (Int/Wis/Cha). This will still favour the Mangler slightly, but will even it out. (besides, if the mangler succeeds it lasts for the duration of the grapple, so the caster is screwed anyway) Good job!
Tuhljin 06-23-07, 03:42 AM	Too Close for Comfort: (8th level, replaces boost to Str) While grappling, a mangler adds 5 to the DC for opponents to cast spells while grappling. Also, if a foe is acting under the influence of any spell that enhances movement(Freedom of Movement etc) the Mangler may make a grapple check opposed by a caster level check to suppress the spell for the duration of the grapple (this is a free action). The spell is suppressed for the duration of the grapple and resumes after the grapple assuming the duration of the spell has not run out (If a spell lasts 5 rounds and the mangler grapples the opponent for 6 rounds, the spell does not resume as its duration has already run out). thanks to tweedledope for this suggestion You need a limit on how often this attempt to suppress such spell effects can be made. As it reads currently, since it's a free action with no such defined limit, you could force a check again and again until you succeed. You could fix this by stating that if the mangler loses the opposed check then he cannot attempt a check against that particular opponent again for X number of rounds or perhaps the duration of the encounter.
Endarrion 06-23-07, 07:57 AM	First off, Mangler levels and Monk levels do not stack to determine unarmed damage, instead, your existing unarmed damage (be it from monk levels or feats) increases one step (1d6-> 1d8, 1d8-> 1d10, 1d10->2d6, etc). A mangler may not want to sit there and pin someone until they're dead, especially if there's other baddies running around. Maybe his friends need help, maybe someone's pelting him with arrows. Sometimes, he'll just need to get up and move on. I'll keep the old version of Bear Hug I suppose, but it seemed that some people had a problem with it being too powerful. Too Close for Comfort: (8th level, replaces boost to Str) While grappling, a mangler adds 5 to the DC for opponents to cast spells while grappling. Also, if a foe is acting under the influence of any spell that enhances movement(Freedom of Movement etc) the Mangler may (as a standard action) make a grapple check opposed by a caster level check to suppress the spell for the duration of the grapple. If the mangler succeeds, the spell is suppressed for the duration of the grapple and resumes after the grapple assuming the duration of the spell has not run out (If a spell lasts 5 rounds and the mangler grapples the opponent for 6 rounds, the spell does not resume as its duration has already run out). If the mangler loses the check, he may not make another check against the same opponent for 1d6 rounds. Hows that? ^
LordFlatulence 06-24-07, 03:39 AM	Too close for comfort is still an unbalanced check, especially if a success for the mangler (extremely likely) will last the length of the grapple while a success by the caster (extremely unlikely) will only delay the mangler for a few rounds. I'm not sure if you noted this suggestion of mine, but I think the check should be grapple vs. caster level + casting ability modifier (Int/Wis/Cha). Bear Hug isn't really too powerful, as an average fighter will kill someone outright through damage in that many rounds and a caster can kill someone in the first round with a death effect. Bear Hug (if you can maintain it that long) will effectively prevent you from affecting combat for a good long while. Besides, the flavour of the ability is awesome. :D
Endarrion 06-24-07, 08:26 AM	Oh yeah, just remembered to post my change to Too Close for Comfort. I was thinking of adding in Iron Will for free as a feat at some level, and then making Too Close a Will Save vs Caster Level: that way the mangler doesn't always win, but neither does the caster (and Iron Will helps make up for the bad Will save of the mangler). LordFlatulence: The only problem I have with the casting ability modifier is in the case of someone drinking a potion or reading a scroll. With caster level, the NPC could just roll 1d20 and add the caster level of the item (a potion of haste at 7th caster level, for example). With the ability modifier, you'd have to go in to detailing things that really don't matter (was the creator a cleric or a wizard, what was his ability score, etc.) Unless I'm horribly wrong (which is possible, and likely).
LordFlatulence 06-25-07, 02:34 AM	Actually, I had not considered gaining Freedom of Movement or equivalent from an item, but when such a problem arises the solution is usually that the ability modifier is the minimum required to cast the spell in question (the DM can usually overrule this if they want). Also, it shouldn't matter if they are a cleric or a wizard. However, if you find this too complex a system, the Will save idea seems to work. Would the DC be 10 + caster level or just straight caster level? Also, do you think some sort of flavour/reasoning is required to explain how a Will save overcomes a buffing effect?
Endarrion 06-25-07, 11:28 AM	Well at first I was thinking a caster level check opposed by the will save of the mangler... But I now understand what you're saying about items, so I guess there's no problem there. And yeah, a DC of 10+ caster level + ability modifier wouldn't be too bad I suppose. Great idea. And the flavor for the will save was going to be something like "Through sheer force of will you are able to force your opponent to fight on your level, pitting the strength of your body against his." Or something similar. I'm also thinking of adding on an ability to the effect that as long as you successfully pin your opponent you automatically deal unarmed damage. Is this too powerful? (normally you need to make an opposed grapple check and win to damage your opponent as well as the check to keep the pin).
TheDarkPrince 06-27-07, 03:36 AM	I'd like to see this class as a finished product. It looks great, and has most likely saved me from taking the Reaping Mauler class. (I'm just now making a grappler/unarmed combatant.) Thanks, and keep up the good work! :D
Endarrion 06-27-07, 03:53 PM	Final Copy!!!!one11 Also editing the first post to reflect the changes. Preface: This all started with me wanting to play a goliath monk that specialized in grappling. First, I went to the What’s a Player to Do forum and asked for suggestions for prestige classes and feats and whatnot. I soon received a suggestion that I should take my query to the CharOps forum. I did so and the only advice I received was (basically) that grappling is stupid. I then decided to create my own prestige class and posted a bare bones version of it in the classes section of this very forum (I forgot there was a separate section for prestige classes, oops). I soon realized that what I had was very similar to a 10 level version of the Reaping Mauler prestige class, and that my very bare example of my class would receive very little commenting with there being so little to comment on. So I created this. I hope its not too much like the 10 level Reaping Mauler and I also hope that its balanced and makes grappling a slightly more viable option. I’d also like to note that this is my first original prestige class that I’ve ever posted on the Prestige classes forum. Furthermore, this class is based on the idea of a character who, when challenged by another, shows up for the duel and is laughed at for his lack of weapons. The mangler laughs as well, because he is already picturing himself throttling his opponents twisted, and soon to be lifeless, body with his bare hands. The Mangler Created by Endarrion http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ss_gallery/49123.jpg “I need naught but mine own hands to crush the life from your little body.” -Rurik Ungart, Dwarven mangler Manglers are masters of unarmed grappling. They see weapons as excuses for weakness. A true test of might is one body pitted against another body. Manglers are always looking for a fight, for a physical challenge to overcome with their bodies. Most manglers are either fighters, monks, or barbarians. Paladins find the style too chaotic and bloodthirsty, while wizards, sorcerers, and bards usually do not have the physical capabilities necessary to become manglers. Rangers, clerics, druids, and rogues rarely become manglers. To qualify to become a Mangler, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria: Base Attack Bonus: +4 Fort Save: +5 Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Endurance, Die Hard. Special: Must have defeated an opponent by grappling without the use of weapons or the benefit of any spells. Base Attack Fort Ref Will Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 1. +1 +2 +0 +0 Agile wrestling, ultimate grappler, unarmed strike 2. +2 +3 +0 +0 Expert Pin, Iron Will 3. +3 +3 +1 +1 Focused DR +1/-, Fists of Fury. 4. +4 +4 +1 +1 Counter Throw, unarmed strike 1d8. 5. +5 +4 +1 +1 Focused DR +2/-, Deadly Wrestler +1d6 6. +6 +5 +2 +2 Crippling pin 7. +7 +5 +2 +2 Unarmed strike 2d6, focused DR +3/- 8. +8 +6 +2 +2 Too Close for Comfort, unarmed strike 1d10 9. +9 +6 +3 +3 Focused DR +4/-, Deadly Wrestler +2d6 10. +10 +7 +3 +3 Secret technique ________________________________________ ___________________________________ Hit Die: d8 Class Skills: Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex). Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier. Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: A mangler does not gain proficiency with any weapons or armors. Special: All of the mangler's abilities only function while he is unarmed. If he wields a weapon he loses all of his class abilities and suffers a -2 morale penalty to all attacks and saving throws for 24 hours. He may still benefit from spells, however. Agile Wrestling: A mangler retains his Dexterity bonus to armor class even while grappling. He still loses his Dexterity bonus while in a pin, however. Ultimate Grappler: A mangler adds half his class level as an insight bonus to all grapple checks. Unarmed Strike: Manglers are masters of unarmed combat and deal more damage than normal. At 1st, 4th, and 8th level the amount of damage you do with your unarmed strike increases one step in size to a maximum of 3d8. The Superior Unarmed Strike feat takes precedence over this ability (use superior unarmed strike's damage progression instead of this one). Expert Pin: If a mangler does nothing but pin an opponent (does not try to deal damage, move, etc) he gains a cumulative +2 bonus to grapple checks each consecutive round he maintains a pin. For example, on the first round of a pin, he receives no bonus, on the second round he receives a +2, on the third a +4, etc. You cannot gain a bonus higher than +20 from Expert Pin. Iron Will: At second level the mangler gains the feat Iron Will for free. Fists of Fury: At third level a mangler's unarmed strikes are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Focused: A mangler is such a focused wrestler that, during a grapple, he gains the ability to shrug off damage. He gains DR equal to his Constitution bonus(if any) +1/- while grappling. This bonus increases by 1 every two levels to a maximum of DR +4/- at level 9. Counter Throw: When attacked and hit in combat, a mangler may decide to make a grapple check with a DC equal to his opponent’s attack roll. If he succeeds, he turns his opponents momentum against him and throws his opponent. The opponent lands prone in a chosen square adjacent to the mangler. The throw deals 1d6 damage + Strength bonus and counts as an immediate action. Deadly Wrestler: A mangler ... mangles his opponents while grappling. Starting at 5th level he adds 1d6 to the amount of damage he deals while in a grapple. He adds another 1d6 at level nine for a total of +2d6 damage to grapples. One Against the World: At sixth level the mangler improves in his ability to deal with multiple opponents. When grappled by at least two opponents a mangler may make a grapple check against a DC of 10 + 5 for each opponent in the grapple. If he succeeds, he pushes the opponents 10 feet back. If a wall or another character occupies the space that the enemy would be pushed into, the enemy falls prone in the square in front of the obstacle. Overbearing: A mangler's proficiency in grappling allows him to automatically deal unarmed damage while in a pin (he still has to succeed in his grapple checks to continue the pin) and he now gains the benefit of Expert Pin even while dealing damage. Too Close for Comfort: While grappling, a mangler adds 5 to the DC for opponents to cast spells while grappling. Also, if a foe is acting under the influence of any spell that enhances movement (Freedom of Movement etc) the Mangler may (as a swift action) force his opponent to abandon cowardly tactics by making a will save against a DC equal to 10 + the caster level of the spell plus the key ability of the caster to suppress the spell for the duration of the grapple. If the mangler succeeds, the spell is suppressed for the duration of the grapple and resumes after the grapple assuming the duration of the spell has not run out (If a spell lasts 5 rounds and the mangler grapples the opponent for 6 rounds, the spell does not resume as its duration has already run out). If the mangler loses the check, he may not make another check against the same opponent for 1d6 rounds. Secret Technique: At 10th level a mangler’s skill at grappling culminates in the form of a Secret Technique. A mangler must choose one technique from the following list: Crippling Pin: If a mangler maintains a pin for 3 consecutive rounds the opponent must make a Fort save against a DC of 10 + one and a half times the mangler's Str modifier. If the opponent fails, he takes a -4 penalty to his Dexterity score and his movement is reduced by 10 ft for 1d6 rounds. Bear Hug: If a mangler can maintain a pin for 3 consecutive rounds the opponent is considered to be suffocating. Flying Foe: Your counter throw ability improves. Now on a successful counter throw, you fling your opponent into a square you choose up to 5 feet away per 2 points of strength bonus, but you must be able to lift your opponents weight over your head. The damage dealt by the throw improves to 2d6.
asteroth16 06-29-07, 05:24 PM	have you considered as another possible capstone ability the ability constrict?
Endarrion 06-29-07, 06:11 PM	have you considered as another possible capstone ability the ability constrict? ::blinks:: Huh?
asteroth16 06-29-07, 08:41 PM	constrict is a special attack that does automatic damage on sucessful grapple checks. not even requiring an action. example a pit fiend constricts for 2d8+26 damage per check, no matter the damage this ability would rock with expert pin.
LordFlatulence 06-29-07, 08:45 PM	Constrict (Ex): A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, after making a successful grapple check. The amount of damage is given in the creature’s entry. If the creature also has the improved grab ability it deals constriction damage in addition to damage dealt by the weapon used to grab. It's looking fantastic to me Endarrion, just like to point out a few things. It is very thick with class abilities, and said abilities are quite powerful. Just so you understand my comments, I condsider the mangler flavour-wise to be unmagical, just a well-trained and very powerful wrestler. I link it more closely to the Reaping Mauler than the Monk. Scrap the 24 hour thing when wielding weapons. It doesn't make any sense flavour-wise, and it's restricting enough to just say that they lose their class abilities while wielding a weapon and get -2 morale penalty on some stuff while wielding the weapon. An interesting addition would be to give the Mangler a slam attack at some level, which would deal damage equal to the Mangler's unarmed strike damage + 1 1/2 x Str Modifier. Scrap Fists of Fury. The mangler will have an amulet of mighty fists or suchlike at that level anyway, and again it doesn't make any sense with the flavour of the mangler. Pull the max bonus from Expert Pin down to +10. Just to even it out a bit. Besides, no one's going to bother with a pin for 10 rounds anyway. Focused is a very powerful ability. It is very easy to pump one's Constitution Modifier. My suggestion is to have it so it's Con Modifier+x / adamantine (rather than /-) or just take out the Con Modifier all together, so you'll have 1,2,3,4/- DR. I'm still adamant that Counter Throw is too powerful. I also note that you seem to have taken out the bit that says it uses an Attack of Opportunity for the round. I think a viable alternative would be to change it to Counter Blow and get a free unarmed attack to anyone who attacks him who he is grappling. Change the DC for One Against the World to 20 + 5 per opponent. This won't be to hard a DC, as he will likely have around +30 or more to grapple by that point. Power up Crippling Pin (I'm not actually sure how, less rounds needed to pin?). No one is going to choose that over Bear Hug at 10th level. Also, Flying Foe will need reworking if Counter Throw is changed. Again, I must express my admiration for this class. It is really quite incredible!
Endarrion 06-29-07, 10:27 PM	Hmmm, not quite as final as I thought. Oh well. It was expected. Suggestions duly noted. Revision: Slam attack instead of Fists of Fury = standard action to do an attack at highest BAB, damage = unarmed + 1.5 str and start grapple as free action? DC for One Against the World will go up to 20. I am adamant that Counter Throw as an immediate action is not too powerful, but perhaps changing it to a Reflex save instead of Grapple check (so its a little harder)? Crippling Pin: -4 Dex AND Str, 10ft penalty to movement for 1d6 rounds OR Pin opponent for 1 round, opponent makes Fort save or suffers -4 Dex and 10ft penalty to movement for 1d6 rounds? I don't see Focused as too powerful, since it's only in a grapple. Expert Pin will come down to +10. Hows that sound?
WIUGamers 06-30-07, 04:19 AM	The work that's been done on this class is fantastic. I like the point of view and the consideration that has been put into this class.
Endarrion 06-30-07, 08:18 AM	Thank you much WIUGamers :)
LordFlatulence 07-01-07, 12:08 AM	I am sorry if I am nitpicking unfairly, but that is just how I feel. Keep in mind that I have every chance of being in the wrong, and this is your class, so you can make it how you like, not how I like! :D Sorry about that Counter Throw thing, I am just trying to recall the rules about immediate actions. Are they done on anyone's turn but only once per turn? Also, does that mean that it is done once per each person's turn or once per the entire round? If the former, it's too powerful, if the latter, just fine with me. I like the standard action slam attack + improved grab idea. I thought improved grab as a class ability would be too powerful, but I also thought that there should be some way to incorporate it into a grappling-based class. I think your idea might just be the solution! With Focused, does it only affect attacks from the people you're grappling or anyone who attacks you if you are grappling? For Crippling Pin, you could institute something like the Called Shot feat from Neverwinter Nights, only more powerful (and of course as a grapple check against a pinned opponent). Here is the feat - http://www.gamebanshee.com/neverwinternights/feats/calledshot.php And sorry for taking away your finality that you thought was iminent...
Endarrion 07-01-07, 11:48 AM	Immediate action can be done on anyone's turn and only once per round. Focused would count against anyone attacking the mangler. And what about giving an improved slam ability instead of crippling pin, but with similar effects? "As a standard action, make a slam attack. If you hit, your foe must make a fortitude save or become stunned (or dazed maybe) for 1d6 rounds. You may not use this ability to initiate a grapple."
WIUGamers 07-02-07, 10:27 PM	What about........... leave him open - when you have the option to pin, you can instead hold your enemy in place in the open. Meaning, instead of pinning the enemy, your allies would be able to attack & automatically hit in place of the Mangler being able to hurt the foe. what about something like that? this ability would make the mangler even more ally friendly?
Endarrion 07-05-07, 08:24 PM	:bump:
Ketone 07-05-07, 09:09 PM	This class is pretty cool, I'd like to play one. But there should be fewer basically killing techniques and more things to do with the actual grappling mechanics. Someone suggested being able to move your full speed in a grapple. Might be fun. I'd make a suicidal grappler who grabs people and runs off of cliffs.
Endarrion 07-10-07, 04:39 PM	I made the final edit to the class and changed the first post. Thanks to all who helped! I mean it!