The Monstrous Disciple [Archive] - Wizards Community

The Monstrous Disciple [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
StevenO
05-20-07, 04:42 PM The Monstrous Disciple

A bit of innate magical ability and some understanding have enabled you to push your already imposing self into an incredible warrior.

Requirements:
Race: You must have an LA +3 or greater which can not later be removed/ignored.
Skill: Knowledge (arcane) 8 {If you are extraplanar or an outsider you may use Knowledge (Planes) instead.}
Languages: Draconic {optionally Celestrial, Infernal, or Abyssal}
Spellcasting: Ability to cast arcane spells without preparation

HD: d12
Skills: 2 + Int mod per level. Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Gather Info, Knowledge - all individually, Listen, Profession, Search, Speak Language, Spellcraft, Spot

Abilities:
Lv Att F/R/W Specials
1 +1 2/0/2 Bonus Spell,
2 +2 3/0/3 Bonus Spell,
3 +3 3/1/3 Bonus Spell, Blindsense 30 ft.
4 +4 4/1/4 Bonus Spell,
5 +5 5/2/5* Bonus Spell, Bonus HD
6 +6 6/2/6* Bonus Spell, Bonus HD, Wings
7 +7 7/3/7* Bonus Spell, Bonus HD, Blindsense 60 ft.

Features:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Monstrous Disciple gain no new proficiency in weapons or armor.

Bonus Spell: Gain one bonus spell slot as Dragon Disciple (DMG 184)

Blindsense (EX): as Dragon Disciple. If you already possess this ability instead increase range +15/+30 feet.

Bonus HD: Add additional HP and skills as if you gained two HD this level. Increase saves as if two HD were gained (* already included in table) this level. Treat character as having one additional HD for all other effects keyed off of HD; this includes HD based ability increases and feats. Effectively this character gets 2d12 new HD this level for all purposes except BAB and level for XP awards.

Wings: The Monstrous Disciple grow wings. He may now fly at a speed equal to his normal land speed with average maneuverability. If he already flies with wings he instead gains +10 feet to fly speed OR increase maneuverability one step.

Yes, it is just the Dragon Disciple stripped of the Half-Dragon Template which convienently has an LA of +3. Although it has some spellcasting requirements I hope everyone can see that this is a fighting class. As for the lack of goodies in the first few level (a bonus spell who-who) I hope double up on HD the last few levels makes up for that.
Darknight303
05-21-07, 08:40 PM I'm not sure what to say about this actually. It strikes me as a dragon discple with some eldricht knight thrown in for a kick. I dont have any magic supplement books yet so the only two classes I can think of that can take this are sorcers and bard... Neither of which have big armor/weapon proficiency or health. I might drop the required skill ranks down a bit if they have to be LA +3 which means they need 4 lvls already and there is no garuntee that the LA gives them any HD which means a cap of 4 skill points at ECL 4, that makes the minumum that some characters can take this PrC is ECL 8. Maybe require some ranks and an ECL req as well to keep a them from getting it too early or too late.

Also, bring the extra HD down a few levels, as forementioned, you are taking a bunch of classes that were never meant to see melee right up to the front lines. Consider giving them something to keep them alive at lower levels, maybe not an extra D12 but maybe an extra dice from the previous class or some natural armor bonus, say +1-3 (play with it a little)
otherwise, not bad

There's my two cents
StevenO
05-22-07, 12:05 AM You may be right about reducing the Skill requirement but I'd only go down three ranks to Knowledge 5. You should be able to enter this as your ECL 6 and having two HD and +3 LA keeps that possible. Given the spellcasting requirement I don't know that I'd jump in to quickly however. One could add the option for a LA +2 race to take the class up to level six in which case I'd still keep the minimum ECL 6 to enter the class.

Take another look, it is almost EXACTLY the Dragon Disciple, less the Half-Dragon part, with nothing else thrown in. Ok, there are alternatives for Blindsense and Wings but those are there in case you already have them. The bonus HD are in the last three levels to make sure they get taken and to keep this from being anything close to a dip class. If one is so worried about staying alive early they probably shouldn't be taking on such a big LA in the first place.
Darknight303
05-22-07, 12:57 PM I wouldn't say that an LA lowers survival chances, I play a monk with an LA +4 for the sole purpose of staying alive(helped get my AC up to 27), but you are taking some classes that generally prefer to be outside of melee and thrusting them right of there. I'd throw in a few proficiencies, not a general proficiency liike all martial weaps, but maybe proficiency with two of the players choice. Last time I checked, bard and sorc only get simple.
StevenO
05-24-07, 02:10 PM I'd expected a few more responses on how strong/weak this PrC would be. Overly strong because it effectively has 10d12 HD in only 7 levels or so weak because it doesn't offer enough class features.

It is always amusing reading thread on the Dragon Disciple and how "weak" it is but then don't see comments when you just strip the Half-Dragon out of that class.
rampant
05-24-07, 03:47 PM Ok first step, rethink preqs/benefits entirely. As it stands the only people who qualify are spell casters of monstrous races who already have enough trouble keeping their spells on par.

Next ditch the la +3 requirement and say non-humanoid or something like that.

Either offer actual spell casting progression or at least allow the effective caster level to increase.

Bonus HD, ok just just just stop! listen thats just bot going to work out well. Consider an improved toughness progression, or a saving throw bonus, increase the class skill points if you need to have more points.

Why blindsense? really its hard to see where you're going with this.

The dragon disciple was an awesome concept, but it had the worst execution I have ever seen in a Wizards product. Basing these guys off of that was a mistake.
StevenO
05-27-07, 07:40 PM So someone thinks there is absolutely zero merit for this as a PrC. Lets see: change prereqs, turn into a "real" spellcasting class, and then finally drop the concepts most unique feature.

After a little more thinking I figure the Prereqs need to keep the Knowledge 8. You may not be able to enter as early as ECL 6 but the intent is to be able to finish up at ECL 15.

As for complaints about how "weak" you'd be entering the class because you need to take an arcane casting class the Duskblade is the simple solution to that. At level one you'd know two 1st level spells and one of them can be True Strike which can be cast in heavy plate and is still useful at 20th level.

I know everyone hates the fighter but here is a comparison between a Half Dragon/Human Fighter 12 (HDF -ECL 15), a Human Duskblade1/Ftr4/DragonD10 (HDD), and a Half Dragon/Human DB1Ftr4//MD7 (MD -ECL15). All have the same basic stats and currently share the same Half-Dragon characteristics.

HDF: BAB +12; F/R/W 8/4/4; HD 12d10 (71); skill points 60+; 3 stat boosts next in 4 levels; Feats 6+7ftr
HDD: BAB +12; F/R/W 12/4/10; HD 1d8+4d10+10d12 (95); skill points 57+; 3 stat boosts next 1 level; feats 7+3ftr; spellcasting CL 1: 3 9 two lv 1 spells known; arcane attunement; blindsense 60'; Wings granting average flight.
MD: BAB +12; F/R/W 12/4/10; HD 1d8+4d10+10d12 (95); skill points 72+; 3 stat boosts next 1 level; feats 7+3ftr; spellcasting CL 1: 3 9 two lv 1 spells known; arcane attunement; blindsense 60'; Wings granting average flight.

As you can see the only big advantage for the HDF is the four extra fighter feats. Now do those four extra fighter feats make up for the one unrestricted feat of the other two, the big difference in hp and saves, and the other goodies the two Disciple examples receive? Next level up the Disciples also increase a stat which the HDF needs to wait three more levels for. The only difference between the Human Dragon Disciple and the Monstrous Disciple would be the skill points which are attributed to the level one INT boost due to starting with with the template. Even taking 12 skill points away from my MD to cover the prereq. it is hard for me to believe that the straight Half-Dragon fighter is at all better.

I could add an Optional in the Prereqs:
Race: LA +2 which may not be reduced or removed. You may take six levels of Monstrous Disciple.
That would open this up to a huge number of creatures which I think would seriously consider it if they were inclined to fighting.
rampant
05-27-07, 10:52 PM Having LA +x for a req is like saying must be level 7 to qualify. Its a poor req, for a PRC. Just like requiring int of 15+, or must have fighter levels.

The beef i have with your class is that its poorly focused. Power is not the issue. A prc should have a theme to it. how are bonus spells monstrous? blindsense? What does this class offer to the minotaur sorcerer? The Insectile drow duskblade? Winged lizard folk beguiler? the ogre bard?

The bonus HD is designed primarly to give skill points and Hp right? does it give saves? increase max skill cap? there just a thousand little rules, spells, and special abilities to be considered here. Your messing with one of the most complex and necessary aspects of character progression here
StevenO
05-27-07, 11:27 PM I actually see having LA +x as a prereq is more like saying character must be a half-dragon, half-fiend, half-celestrial, illithid, and so on than putting on a level restriction. It just simplifies the pool of legal applicants like saying must be type abberation would. Lets be honest, all PrC have a level requirement that can be expressed as a BAB, skill, spellcasting, or feat requirement. Using feats and spell levels as prereqs also can set stat requirements as an Int 12 character can't cast 3rd level wizard spells.

If you look at it the focus is basically to allow a LA +3 character to get HD to make up for those lost to the LA. Fluff is fluff and while it may allow things make more sense it doesn't always do them justice. The name of any class is always up for alteration if that is desired.

If you actually want a focus try this: You use a little bit of innate magical ability to boost yourself into a warrior who is more powerful than can be expected. Blindsense is something an warrior should appreciate as it keeps you effective in a number of situations. The addition of wings help in your mobility. If you consider yourself a primary spellcaster this class does nothing for you but if you consider yourself a warrior it offers some nice bonuses in the end.

Bonus HD are designed to give the character all the benefits of another HD including hp, skills, saves (already included in the save progression), and increasing all HD dependant features such as skill caps and aquiring HD related feats and stat increases. The only things these bonus HD don't add is BAB (treat as +0), special class features (the bonus spell slots), and they don't count against your ECL for determining XP and leveling.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
StevenO 05-20-07, 04:42 PM	The Monstrous Disciple A bit of innate magical ability and some understanding have enabled you to push your already imposing self into an incredible warrior. Requirements: Race: You must have an LA +3 or greater which can not later be removed/ignored. Skill: Knowledge (arcane) 8 {If you are extraplanar or an outsider you may use Knowledge (Planes) instead.} Languages: Draconic {optionally Celestrial, Infernal, or Abyssal} Spellcasting: Ability to cast arcane spells without preparation HD: d12 Skills: 2 + Int mod per level. Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Gather Info, Knowledge - all individually, Listen, Profession, Search, Speak Language, Spellcraft, Spot Abilities: Lv Att F/R/W Specials 1 +1 2/0/2 Bonus Spell, 2 +2 3/0/3 Bonus Spell, 3 +3 3/1/3 Bonus Spell, Blindsense 30 ft. 4 +4 4/1/4 Bonus Spell, 5 +5 5/2/5* Bonus Spell, Bonus HD 6 +6 6/2/6* Bonus Spell, Bonus HD, Wings 7 +7 7/3/7* Bonus Spell, Bonus HD, Blindsense 60 ft. Features: Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Monstrous Disciple gain no new proficiency in weapons or armor. Bonus Spell: Gain one bonus spell slot as Dragon Disciple (DMG 184) Blindsense (EX): as Dragon Disciple. If you already possess this ability instead increase range +15/+30 feet. Bonus HD: Add additional HP and skills as if you gained two HD this level. Increase saves as if two HD were gained (* already included in table) this level. Treat character as having one additional HD for all other effects keyed off of HD; this includes HD based ability increases and feats. Effectively this character gets 2d12 new HD this level for all purposes except BAB and level for XP awards. Wings: The Monstrous Disciple grow wings. He may now fly at a speed equal to his normal land speed with average maneuverability. If he already flies with wings he instead gains +10 feet to fly speed OR increase maneuverability one step. Yes, it is just the Dragon Disciple stripped of the Half-Dragon Template which convienently has an LA of +3. Although it has some spellcasting requirements I hope everyone can see that this is a fighting class. As for the lack of goodies in the first few level (a bonus spell who-who) I hope double up on HD the last few levels makes up for that.
Darknight303 05-21-07, 08:40 PM	I'm not sure what to say about this actually. It strikes me as a dragon discple with some eldricht knight thrown in for a kick. I dont have any magic supplement books yet so the only two classes I can think of that can take this are sorcers and bard... Neither of which have big armor/weapon proficiency or health. I might drop the required skill ranks down a bit if they have to be LA +3 which means they need 4 lvls already and there is no garuntee that the LA gives them any HD which means a cap of 4 skill points at ECL 4, that makes the minumum that some characters can take this PrC is ECL 8. Maybe require some ranks and an ECL req as well to keep a them from getting it too early or too late. Also, bring the extra HD down a few levels, as forementioned, you are taking a bunch of classes that were never meant to see melee right up to the front lines. Consider giving them something to keep them alive at lower levels, maybe not an extra D12 but maybe an extra dice from the previous class or some natural armor bonus, say +1-3 (play with it a little) otherwise, not bad There's my two cents
StevenO 05-22-07, 12:05 AM	You may be right about reducing the Skill requirement but I'd only go down three ranks to Knowledge 5. You should be able to enter this as your ECL 6 and having two HD and +3 LA keeps that possible. Given the spellcasting requirement I don't know that I'd jump in to quickly however. One could add the option for a LA +2 race to take the class up to level six in which case I'd still keep the minimum ECL 6 to enter the class. Take another look, it is almost EXACTLY the Dragon Disciple, less the Half-Dragon part, with nothing else thrown in. Ok, there are alternatives for Blindsense and Wings but those are there in case you already have them. The bonus HD are in the last three levels to make sure they get taken and to keep this from being anything close to a dip class. If one is so worried about staying alive early they probably shouldn't be taking on such a big LA in the first place.
Darknight303 05-22-07, 12:57 PM	I wouldn't say that an LA lowers survival chances, I play a monk with an LA +4 for the sole purpose of staying alive(helped get my AC up to 27), but you are taking some classes that generally prefer to be outside of melee and thrusting them right of there. I'd throw in a few proficiencies, not a general proficiency liike all martial weaps, but maybe proficiency with two of the players choice. Last time I checked, bard and sorc only get simple.
StevenO 05-24-07, 02:10 PM	I'd expected a few more responses on how strong/weak this PrC would be. Overly strong because it effectively has 10d12 HD in only 7 levels or so weak because it doesn't offer enough class features. It is always amusing reading thread on the Dragon Disciple and how "weak" it is but then don't see comments when you just strip the Half-Dragon out of that class.
rampant 05-24-07, 03:47 PM	Ok first step, rethink preqs/benefits entirely. As it stands the only people who qualify are spell casters of monstrous races who already have enough trouble keeping their spells on par. Next ditch the la +3 requirement and say non-humanoid or something like that. Either offer actual spell casting progression or at least allow the effective caster level to increase. Bonus HD, ok just just just stop! listen thats just bot going to work out well. Consider an improved toughness progression, or a saving throw bonus, increase the class skill points if you need to have more points. Why blindsense? really its hard to see where you're going with this. The dragon disciple was an awesome concept, but it had the worst execution I have ever seen in a Wizards product. Basing these guys off of that was a mistake.
StevenO 05-27-07, 07:40 PM	So someone thinks there is absolutely zero merit for this as a PrC. Lets see: change prereqs, turn into a "real" spellcasting class, and then finally drop the concepts most unique feature. After a little more thinking I figure the Prereqs need to keep the Knowledge 8. You may not be able to enter as early as ECL 6 but the intent is to be able to finish up at ECL 15. As for complaints about how "weak" you'd be entering the class because you need to take an arcane casting class the Duskblade is the simple solution to that. At level one you'd know two 1st level spells and one of them can be True Strike which can be cast in heavy plate and is still useful at 20th level. I know everyone hates the fighter but here is a comparison between a Half Dragon/Human Fighter 12 (HDF -ECL 15), a Human Duskblade1/Ftr4/DragonD10 (HDD), and a Half Dragon/Human DB1Ftr4//MD7 (MD -ECL15). All have the same basic stats and currently share the same Half-Dragon characteristics. HDF: BAB +12; F/R/W 8/4/4; HD 12d10 (71); skill points 60+; 3 stat boosts next in 4 levels; Feats 6+7ftr HDD: BAB +12; F/R/W 12/4/10; HD 1d8+4d10+10d12 (95); skill points 57+; 3 stat boosts next 1 level; feats 7+3ftr; spellcasting CL 1: 3 9 two lv 1 spells known; arcane attunement; blindsense 60'; Wings granting average flight. MD: BAB +12; F/R/W 12/4/10; HD 1d8+4d10+10d12 (95); skill points 72+; 3 stat boosts next 1 level; feats 7+3ftr; spellcasting CL 1: 3 9 two lv 1 spells known; arcane attunement; blindsense 60'; Wings granting average flight. As you can see the only big advantage for the HDF is the four extra fighter feats. Now do those four extra fighter feats make up for the one unrestricted feat of the other two, the big difference in hp and saves, and the other goodies the two Disciple examples receive? Next level up the Disciples also increase a stat which the HDF needs to wait three more levels for. The only difference between the Human Dragon Disciple and the Monstrous Disciple would be the skill points which are attributed to the level one INT boost due to starting with with the template. Even taking 12 skill points away from my MD to cover the prereq. it is hard for me to believe that the straight Half-Dragon fighter is at all better. I could add an Optional in the Prereqs: Race: LA +2 which may not be reduced or removed. You may take six levels of Monstrous Disciple. That would open this up to a huge number of creatures which I think would seriously consider it if they were inclined to fighting.
rampant 05-27-07, 10:52 PM	Having LA +x for a req is like saying must be level 7 to qualify. Its a poor req, for a PRC. Just like requiring int of 15+, or must have fighter levels. The beef i have with your class is that its poorly focused. Power is not the issue. A prc should have a theme to it. how are bonus spells monstrous? blindsense? What does this class offer to the minotaur sorcerer? The Insectile drow duskblade? Winged lizard folk beguiler? the ogre bard? The bonus HD is designed primarly to give skill points and Hp right? does it give saves? increase max skill cap? there just a thousand little rules, spells, and special abilities to be considered here. Your messing with one of the most complex and necessary aspects of character progression here
StevenO 05-27-07, 11:27 PM	I actually see having LA +x as a prereq is more like saying character must be a half-dragon, half-fiend, half-celestrial, illithid, and so on than putting on a level restriction. It just simplifies the pool of legal applicants like saying must be type abberation would. Lets be honest, all PrC have a level requirement that can be expressed as a BAB, skill, spellcasting, or feat requirement. Using feats and spell levels as prereqs also can set stat requirements as an Int 12 character can't cast 3rd level wizard spells. If you look at it the focus is basically to allow a LA +3 character to get HD to make up for those lost to the LA. Fluff is fluff and while it may allow things make more sense it doesn't always do them justice. The name of any class is always up for alteration if that is desired. If you actually want a focus try this: You use a little bit of innate magical ability to boost yourself into a warrior who is more powerful than can be expected. Blindsense is something an warrior should appreciate as it keeps you effective in a number of situations. The addition of wings help in your mobility. If you consider yourself a primary spellcaster this class does nothing for you but if you consider yourself a warrior it offers some nice bonuses in the end. Bonus HD are designed to give the character all the benefits of another HD including hp, skills, saves (already included in the save progression), and increasing all HD dependant features such as skill caps and aquiring HD related feats and stat increases. The only things these bonus HD don't add is BAB (treat as +0), special class features (the bonus spell slots), and they don't count against your ECL for determining XP and leveling.