Post/Author/DateTime	Post
wolfie-kun 01-29-06, 11:28 AM	Now with a limited selection of martial maneuvers. The Shadow of Twilight "Darkness. A child's nightmare. The strongest weapon any man could ever wield." The Shadow of Twilight wields shadows and shadow spells with awe-inspiring ability. He finds the concept of fighting darkness, the shadows that creep over one's heart, to be a futile effort best left to a paladin. Even though his heart stays pure and good, a Shadow of Twilight uses the very darkness that threatens to overtake him to fight his enemies. He tries to break the concept that darkness must always be tied to evil, that the shadows are something that hides only danger. His weapons are everything from shadow illusions to swords and armor formed from pure darkness. Primarily a spellcaster early on, as a Shadow of Twilight learns more about what the powers of darkness can do for him, he becomes a strong melee combatant as well. Becoming a Shadow of Twilight Shadowcasters and stealthier than average sorcerers are the most common Shadows of Twilight. Occasionally other classes will find themselves following this path, but only rarely, as they do not readily have the spellcasting ability necessary to begin learning the almost otherworldly techniques of this prestige class. Entry Requirements Alignment: Any good Skills: Hide 4 ranks Spellcasting: Ability to spontaneously cast 2nd level or higher arcane spells, at least two of which must have the Darkness descriptor; or ability to use 3rd level mysteries. Maneuvers: One martial maneuver and one martial stance. The Shadow of Twilight Hit Die: d6 Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Shadow sword 2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 Sudden strike +1d6 3rd +2 +1 +1 +3 Cloak of darkness, shadow armor (+2) 4th +3 +1 +1 +4 - 5th +3 +1 +1 +4 Sudden strike +2d6 6th +4 +2 +2 +5 Shadow armor (+3, 10%) 7th +5 +2 +2 +5 - 8th +6 +2 +2 +6 Sudden strike +3d6 9th +6 +3 +3 +6 Shadow armor (+4, 20%) 10th +7 +3 +3 +7 Twilight blade Man. Man. Stances Level Spellcasting Known Read. Known 1st - 1 1 1 2nd +1 level arcane spellcasting class 0 0 0 3rd +1 level arcane spellcasting class 1 0 0 4th +1 level arcane spellcasting class 0 0 0 5th +1 level arcane spellcasting class 1 1 0 6th - 0 0 0 7th +1 level arcane spellcasting class 1 0 0 8th +1 level arcane spellcasting class 0 0 0 9th +1 level arcane spellcasting class 1 1 0 10th +1 level arcane spellcasting class 0 0 1 Class Skills (2+Int mod at each additional level): Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (religion), Listen, Move Silently, Profession, Search, Spellcraft, Spot 0-level Cure/Inflict Minor Wounds, Dancing Lights, Daze, Guidance, Message, Read Magic, Touch of Fatigue 1st level Cure/Inflict Light Wounds, Doom, Ebon Eyes, Insightful Feint, Low Light Vision, Mage Armor, Net of Shadows, Nightshield, Obscuring Mist, Pass without Trace, Phantom Threat, True Strike, Wall of Smoke 2nd level Blindness/Deafness, Blur, Cure/Inflict Moderate Wounds, Dark Way, Darkness, Darkvision, Fog Cloud, Hypnotic Pattern, Phantom Foe, Shadow Mask, Shadow Radiance, Shadow Spray, Undetectable Alignment, Veil of Shadow, Wall of Gloom 3rd level Blacklight, Blindsight, Blink, Claws of Darkness, Cure/Inflict Serious Wounds, Darkfire, Deeper Darkness, Displacement, Shadow Binding, Shadow Cache, Shadow Phase, Slashing Darkness, Spectral Weapon 4th level Arcane Eye, Armor of Darkness, Blindsight (greater), Cure/Inflict Critical Wounds, Detect Scrying, Fear, Shadow Blast, Shadow Form, Shadow Well, Wraithstrike 5th level Crawling Darkness, Cure/Inflict Light Wounds (mass), Darkbolt, Nightstalker’s Transformation, Overland Flight, Prying Eyes, Shadow Evocation, Shadow Fade, Teleport, True Seeing, Wall of Force, Waves of Fatigue 6th level Antilife Shell, Cure/Inflict Moderate Wounds (mass), Find the Path, Repulsion, Shadow Walk, Shadowy Grappler, Symbol of Fear, Tenser’s Transformation, Word of Recall 7th level Cure/Inflict Serious Wounds, Harm, Heal, Nightmare, Phase Door, Symbol of Stunning, Symbol of Weakness, Teleport (greater) 8th level Cure/Inflict Critical Wounds, Earthquake, Mind Blank, Power Word Blind, Protection from Spells, Screen, Shadow Evocation (greater), Temporal Stasis 9th level Freedom, Heal (mass), Implosion, Power Word Stun, Shades, Soul Bind, Teleportation Circle, Time Stop Class Features Weapon and Armor Proficiency: When a Shadow of Twilight gains his first level in this class he gains proficiency with the dagger, shortsword, and longsword. He gains no proficiencies with any type of armor or shield. Spellcasting: A Shadow of Twilight must make a major sacrifice upon entering this prestige class. When he takes his first level of this class, he loses the ability not only to cast, but to even gain knowledge of any spells that are not on the Shadow of Twilight spell list (even if these spells are granted through access to one of a deity's domains). In addition to this, he loses his familiar (or any ability he took that replaced that familiar, such as the Metamagic Specialist alternate ability for sorcerers from the PHB II), and the ability to summon a new one (he does not, however, lose XP). If he takes levels in any other spellcasting class, he continues to cast spells as if he'd simply gained another Shadow of Twilight level (instead of rearranging his spell list and spells known). He learns immediately all Shadow of Twilight spells of all levels he can currently cast spells from, essentially, his spell list is the same as his spells known list. The Shadow of Twilight casts spells in the same manner as the sorcerer, save his knowledge of spells. At each level except 1st and 6th, he gains spells per day as if he had gained a level in a previous arcane spellcasting class. If a character enters this class by use of mysteries instead of arcane casting, his effective mystery user level (when he gets mysteries, how many, what level, when they become spell-like or supernatural abilities) increases by one at every level except 1st, 5th, and 9th. None of the mysteries known are lost, and the mysteries available do not change, nor the level of any mysteries. Taking different paths still provides bonus feats as normal. Reasons: Shadowcasters have a d6 hit die, where arcane casters usually have a d4. Shadowcasters have no familiar to lose, and their list of mysteries available doesn't change. On top of that, the mystery user continues to gain bonus feats for gaining new mysteries from different paths, and thus does not suffer from a lack of high-level spells (or equivalent thereof) as an arcane caster would. They mystery-using Shadow of Twilight will be pretty much right on par with the spellcasting version, but levels taken before entering the PrC will be very different. Maneuvers: At 1st, 3rd, 6th, and 9th, you gain a new maneuver known from the Shadow Hand school. You must meet a maneuver's prerequisites to learn it, and you add your full Shadow of Twilight levels to your initiator level to determine your total initiator level. You can recover any Shadow Hand maneuver by using a full round action to focus. This does not provoke attacks of opportunity. You gain a new maneuver readied at 1st, 5th, and 9th levels. You can ready any maneuver you already know. Stances Known: At 1st level you learn one 1st level stance from the Shadow Hand school. At 10th level, you learn a new stance (also from the Shadow Hand discipline). You must meet a stance's prerequisites to learn it. Shadow Sword (Su): From the very beginning of his training along this path, the Shadow of Twilight uses darkness to augment the very weapon he wields. Whenever a Shadow of Twilight picks up a masterwork dagger, short sword, or longsword, he may take a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity to imbue it with shadow energy. A weapon imbued with shadow energy in this way gains magic enhancement bonuses and weapon special abilities based on the Shadow of Twilight's class level. Level Enhancement (Total Bonus) 1st +1 ghost touch (+2) 2nd-3rd +1 keen ghost touch (+3) 4th-5th +2 keen ghost touch (+4) 6th +3 keen ghost touch (+5) 7th-9th +4 keen ghost touch (+6) 10th +5 keen ghost touch shadow striking (+10) As long as this ability is still functioning, the weapon temporarily loses any magic enhancement bonuses or special abilities it already has (this has no effect on the enhancements granted through use of this ability). This effect lasts a number of minutes equal to his class level. At 4th level and higher, a Shadow of Twilight can spend his swift action in the round he imbues a Shadow Sword to grant the effects to another blade he's wielding. Both blades have an enhancement bonus one lower than indicated on the above table, but have all the weapon special abilities listed. All the normal penalties for fighting with two weapons apply. (The shadow striking special ability is from Tome of Magic. It can be found in the Excerpts here. (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060303a&page=7) Since the property is very similar to the transmuting property from the Magic Item Compendium, you may choose to imbue your shadow sword with that property instead. The total bonus becomes +9--do not replace the +1 difference.) Sudden Strike (Ex): As the ninja (CAdv) ability of the same name. A sudden strike works basically the same as a sneak attack, but the Shadow of Twilight does not gain sudden strike bonus damage while he's flanking his target. At 2nd level, a Shadow of Twilight deals an additional +1d6 points of damage on all attacks he makes against an opponent who is denied a Dex bonus to AC. At 5th level, he deals an additional +2d6 damage, and at 8th an additional +3d6. Creatures that are immune to critical hits or sneak attacks are not subject to the extra damage from sudden strike, nor are creatures who have concealment or do not have discernable anatomies. Cloak of Darkness (Ex): Using shadows to his best advantage, the Shadow of Twilight finds stealth to be one aspect of adventuring he excels at. Starting at 3rd level, a Shadow of Twilight gains a bonus on all Hide and Move Silently checks equal to his class level -2. He can take 10 on Hide and Move Silently checks even if rushed or distracted. Shadow Armor (Su): Slowly but surely, the Shadow of Twilight learns how to shape pure darkness into a form that can provide him some protection. Starting at 3rd level, a Shadow of Twilight can form a nimbus of shadow around himself as a full round action that provokes attacks of opportunity. The shadows give him a +2 deflection bonus to AC for a number of minutes equal to his class level. At 6th level, the deflection bonus to AC provided by the armor increases to +3 (instead of +2), and opponents attempting to physically attack you suffer a 15% miss chance as the shadows partially conceal your true location. At 9th, the deflection bonus improves to +4, and the miss chance an opponent suffers when attacking you increases to 30%. The shadows now spread far enough from your position to grant you concealment, but only when you make Hide checks (you do not gain the other benefits of having concealment). Twilight Blade (Su): Even in the deepest, darkest cavern, a small amount of light shines still. Upon reaching 10th level, once per day as a swift action you may reshape your shadow sword into a Twilight Blade (the duration does not change). The sword imbued becomes incredibly bright, and all creatures other than you within a 10ft radius when you reshape it must make a DC 15 Ref save or be blinded for one round. The sword's base damage increases to 2d6. As a full round action, you may make a Whirlwind Attack (as the feat) with the Twilight Blade. While you are wielding your Twilight Blade, you may imbue it with spell energy. To use this ability, you must sacrifice an arcane spell as a swift action. Any attacks you make this round gain a +1 bonus on attack rolls for each level of the spell sacrificed, and deals an extra 1d4 points of damage per spell level on a successful hit.
MaverickWolf 01-29-06, 11:49 AM	I'm guessing this is still a work in progress, so here's what I've got to say so far. Wording for spellcasting is going to need work, but I don't have time to re-word it myself right now. Hide and Move Silently should be on the pre-reqs. It just goes with the feel of shadows. Needless to say, you need a class skill list. Any reason you want them to have the ability to spontaneously cast cure spells? Not saying there's anything wrong with it, but I see nothing in the flavor that explains why so far. The Shadow Equipment severely needs more duration and uses/day. Frankly, it'd be cool to walk around with it all day. Also, specify how the Shadow Blade would interact with abilities like those of the Kensai or the Incarnum Blade. I think it'd be pretty cool to allow characters to upgrade their Shadow Blades further through a ritual or even through normal means (maybe even build it straight into the class so the character can do it without anyone else's help).
Fox Lee 01-29-06, 05:53 PM	Nice idea, but just a thought - you have to already be able to spontaneously cast cure or inflict spells to get into the class, yet the class grants you the ability to do so, and with a different requirement. How does this interact with your existing ability to spontaneously channel? It technically makes the ability you already had worse, which is no good for a PrC ^^;
Maraxus 01-29-06, 06:29 PM	I think he means, you allready need to be able to cast cure or inflict spells (as a cleric, bard etc... - Does a bard with cure spells known quallify, btw?) And then, you also get the ability to spontaneous replace your tSoT - spells into cure or inflict spells (just a bit worse). Remember that you cant spontaneous switch your wizard spells to cure spells, if you are a cleric/wizard.
wolfie-kun 01-29-06, 09:58 PM	Okay, the whole spontaneous casting thing definitely will need clarification. Now, the idea here is that once you enter the PrC, you instantly become able to spontaneously cast both cure and inflict spells. The reason it requires higher-level sacrifices is because chances are that one is using arcane spells to suddenly cast divine ones. I know the shadow equipment and wording for spellcasting need some serious work, I'll get around to that probably Tuesday, when I have the chance. Till then, any more input would be great.
Fox Lee 01-29-06, 10:24 PM	Okay, the whole spontaneous casting thing definitely will need clarification. Now, the idea here is that once you enter the PrC, you instantly become able to spontaneously cast both cure and inflict spells. The reason it requires higher-level sacrifices is because chances are that one is using arcane spells to suddenly cast divine ones. I see, so the prerequisite does refer to the spontaneous channelling of cure or inflict spells? That's what I was thinking. It's a good idea to limit doing this with arcane spells, but it's still rather painful to have your existing ability (to do it with divine spells) reduced. I would apply the +1 spell level drawback only when channelling arcane spells.
Seeker of Undeath 01-30-06, 11:05 AM	What about a 7th-level Sorcerer who took Arcane Disciple (Healing) and properly learned to cast a cure spell? How would the 1st-level ability interact with that casting, if at all? Just a thought. And I picked 7th-level in anticipation of taking max cross-class ranks in Listen, in case you were wondering. For spells I'd probably take up Shadow Spray, Shadow Binding, Shadow Cache, Claws of Darkness, Dark Way, Phantasmal Assailants, Dead End, or something like those to meet the spell prerequisites. It's not terribly difficult to enter as yet--unless we're talking a core-only game. Then the spell requirement gets ugly.
wolfie-kun 01-30-06, 04:17 PM	What about a 7th-level Sorcerer who took Arcane Disciple (Healing) and properly learned to cast a cure spell? How would the 1st-level ability interact with that casting, if at all? Just a thought. And I picked 7th-level in anticipation of taking max cross-class ranks in Listen, in case you were wondering. For spells I'd probably take up Shadow Spray, Shadow Binding, Shadow Cache, Claws of Darkness, Dark Way, Phantasmal Assailants, Dead End, or something like those to meet the spell prerequisites. It's not terribly difficult to enter as yet--unless we're talking a core-only game. Then the spell requirement gets ugly. The PrC is definitely not meant for a core-only game. The spell list for the class would be absolutely miniscule. Anyway, I just now edited things a little bit, though I still haven't had enough time to post everything in a table. This has actuallly been nagging me for a little while, but what are some good sources for this PrC's spell list? I looked at CA and CD, and didn't find all too much in either one.
Molot 01-30-06, 04:58 PM	Maybe you say I'm obsessed, but... I really do like the concept I see here... but. But without small shiny table with bab, saves, class features & casting it is harder to "see" if it is about balanced or not. Aslo, make font size in requirements biger, and put some formatting, so people would not have to seek for "spellcasting" section in sth that looks like lot of gibberlish. And about his casting - if he incrases other class casting, then how do you want to make Shadow of Twilight's spells be Cha based, and base class to be (let's say) Int based? On example: Wizard 10 / Shadow 10, int 30, cha 19. Plz tell me how much bonus spells would he have, what DC would be to save against them and so on.
wolfie-kun 01-31-06, 07:29 PM	Maybe you say I'm obsessed, but... I really do like the concept I see here... but. But without small shiny table with bab, saves, class features & casting it is harder to "see" if it is about balanced or not. Aslo, make font size in requirements biger, and put some formatting, so people would not have to seek for "spellcasting" section in sth that looks like lot of gibberlish. And about his casting - if he incrases other class casting, then how do you want to make Shadow of Twilight's spells be Cha based, and base class to be (let's say) Int based? On example: Wizard 10 / Shadow 10, int 30, cha 19. Plz tell me how much bonus spells would he have, what DC would be to save against them and so on. First off, you now have your chart and I fixed the general formatting. :) As for the spellcasting... This was actually something of a problem for me to come up with. I really needed a way for the class to get the spells they need within a divine casting class, but I don't think there are anywhere near enough spells with the necessary descriptors that are actually available to divine casters. The other problem is starting with a new spell progression. I just don't think that it would work very well that way; it wouldn't feel quite right. Any ideas on fixing the spellcasting would be greatly appreciated!!
Molot 02-01-06, 04:21 PM	Entry Requirements Alignment: Any GoodWhy? Not that I say it's wrong... just asking, you know. Skills: Hide 5 ranks, Listen 5 ranksNot to low? With that ranks, those may be his "spare point keepers" - not so prestigeous nor even specialized. Spellcasting: Ability to spontaneously cast cure or inflict spells, ability to cast at least four spells from the Illusion school, with at least two bearing the Shadow descriptor, the Darkness descriptor, or the Phantasm descriptor.Ok, so clear Sorcerer may do the job with spells at 1'st level! And total requirements at second level. Waaay to early. Common guideline says "5 base levels before PrC". Do you have strong reason to break it so violentaly? Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1st +0 +2 +0 +2 Cloak of Darkness +3, Path of Twilight 2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 Shadow Blade 3rd +2 +3 +1 +3 Shadow Armor (+2, 10%) 4th +3 +4 +1 +4 Cloak of Darkness +6, Shadow Absorption DR 3/good 5th +3 +4 +1 +4 6th +4 +5 +2 +5 Shadow Armor (+4, 25%), Shadow Blade +1 7th +5 +5 +2 +5 Cloak of Darkness +8, Shadow Absorption 4/good 8th +6 +6 +2 +6 9th +6 +6 +3 +6 Shadow Armor (+6, 40%), Shadow Blade +2 10th +7 +7 +3 +7 Hide in plain sight, Shadow Absorption DR 5/goodBetter saves, better BaB, full casting and bonuses. I can't see HD, maybe I'm missing it, but it looks like Sor (easiest entry class) would be improved all possible ways. Class Skills (4+Int mod): Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (religion), Listen, Move Silently, Profession, Search, Spellcraft, Spot Good list. Not to good, but good enought. How many points per level he gets? Spellcasting: A Shadow of Twilight casts arcane spells, using Cha to determine save DCs and bonus spells. He prepares spells as a wizard, except that he automatically knows all spells on his spell list.Great bonus on a Sor - know all spells instead of small selection. And free Arcane Preparation. And nothing says he looses ways of casting from his prev class too. His spells per day increase as if he'd gained a level in his previous arcane spellcasting class at each level except for 3rd, 6th, and 9th. A Shadow of Twilight's spellcasting is otherwise completely separate from any previous classes he has.Geez, it does not make much sence, does it? Spell list: The Shadow of Twilight's spell list includes all spells with the Darkness, Phantasm, or Shadow Descriptors, and all cure and inflict spells.What? You require Cure & Inflict, and then not put it on class list? My idea of spellcasting: Spellcasting: At each level except ... character gains spells per day (and known, if applicable) as if he would gain a level in selected casting class he has efore becaming Shadow of Twilight. All spells form ... school and with ..., ... and ... descriptors are from now considered to be on his spell list too. Besides, this way it might be more balanced... If I would only know what exactly do you want... The Path of Twilight (Ex): A Shadow of Twilight is able to spontaneously cast both cure and inflict spells. He must, however, use a spell one slot higher to cast them (for instance, he would need to sacrifice a 2nd level spell to cast cure light wounds without preparation).But he already is able to do that, and without higer level cell used! Do you remove cleric's pontaneity? Cloak of Darkness (Ex): A Shadow of Twilight is always able to find the darkest hiding spot. He gains a +3 competence bonus on all Hide checks he makes. He make take 10 on a Hide check even if he is rushed or distracted. At 4th level, this bonus on Hide checks increases to +5, then to +8 at 7th. At 10th level, he gains the hide in plain sight ability.Bonuses are ok, hide in plain sight is a bit to powerfull. Shadow Blade (Su): By the time he has reached 2nd level, the Shadow of Twilight has learned to form even a material weapon from shadows. On command, he can summon shadows to produce the equivalent of a +1 longsword.But you don't even require him to be able to use longsword :| Shadow Armor (Su): Slowly but surely, the Shadow of Twilight learns how to shape pure darkness into a tangible form. Starting at 3rd level, a Shadow of Twilight can form a nimbus of shadow around him. The shadows improve his deflection bonus to AC by 2 (this stacks with any deflection bonus he may have from other sources),Bonuses of the same type does not stack. Do you have strong reason to change that? Shadow Absorption: A Shadow of Twilight also learns how to call the shadows to help reduce some of the damage he recieves. At 4th level, the armor provides DR 3/good for a number of round/day equal to the Shadow of Twilight's class level. At 7th, the armor provides DR 4/good when activated, then DR 5/ good at 10th.Hey, he is good guy and can be hurt by good guys?! And all this ability hardly make sence for me. Best compliment anyone can get from me: It was interesting enought to make me spent pretty much time reading & commenting...
wolfie-kun 02-01-06, 07:44 PM	Okay, before I start, I originally took only two hours to make this class. Up to this very moment, it's still only conceptual. That's why I actually posted it, so that I could get feedback on mechanics and game balance. Why? Not that I say it's wrong... just asking, you know. See above. Not to low? With that ranks, those may be his "spare point keepers" - not so prestigeous nor even specialized. Yes, far too low. I didn't notice that. Ok, so clear Sorcerer may do the job with spells at 1'st level! Hopefully not anymore. I'm really not sure though; at any rate, the skill prereqs should keep sorcs from getting in too early. And total requirements at second level. Waaay to early. Common guideline says "5 base levels before PrC". Do you have strong reason to break it so violentaly? No, no reason. It was a stupid mistake that I hadn't even noticed until you pointed it out. Thanks for noticing that, anyway. Good list. Not to good, but good enought. How many points per level he gets? It was already there. Might be a bit clearer now, though. Unfortunately, I think 4+Int mod may be too much. Better saves, better BaB, full casting and bonuses. I can't see HD, maybe I'm missing it, but it looks like Sor (easiest entry class) would be improved all possible ways. Great bonus on a Sor - know all spells instead of small selection. And free Arcane Preparation. And nothing says he looses ways of casting from his prev class too. Geez, [path of twilight] does not make much sence, does it? What? You require Cure & Inflict, and then not put it on class list? My idea of spellcasting: Spellcasting: At each level except ... character gains spells per day (and known, if applicable) as if he would gain a level in selected casting class he has efore becaming Shadow of Twilight. All spells form ... school and with ..., ... and ... descriptors are from now considered to be on his spell list too. Hopefully I've got all that fixed now. Losing spells known, any domain spells, and a familiar (not too big, but the idea of a familiar doesn't fit the class anyway) should be enough to help balance that out. It also fits the idea of what I'm trying to do better. But he already is able to do that, and without higer level spell used! Do you remove cleric's spontaneity? This is no longer a problem. Completely got rid of that part of the ability. Bonuses are ok, hide in plain sight is a bit to powerful. Hide in plain sight removed. But you don't even require him to be able to use longsword :| Aren't most classes that give spontaneous casting of cure or inflict spells already proficient with longswords? It isn't even a very key ability anyway, but just in case someone manages to enter without proficiency, he gains it. Bonuses of the same type does not stack. Do you have strong reason to change that? I thought I did, but then I realized that it made no sense. The bonus no longer stacks. Hey, he is good guy and can be hurt by good guys?! And all this ability hardly make sence for me. Gaining DR for # of rounds/ day equal to your class level doesn't make sense? I wish you had been more specific. The DR is now DR/evil. Best compliment anyone can get from me: It was interesting enought to make me spent pretty much time reading & commenting... Well, at least it is a complement. If I did things right, maybe now I can get better. :)
Molot 02-02-06, 04:03 AM	Ok, now it's twisted a bit, but it can work. Only uncleared issue - what with base class levels gained after this PrC? One level of Sor would allow him to cast spontaneously again, recreated his spell list and so on.
wolfie-kun 02-02-06, 08:23 PM	Ok, now it's twisted a bit, but it can work. Only uncleared issue - what with base class levels gained after this PrC? One level of Sor would allow him to cast spontaneously again, recreated his spell list and so on. Again with the lack of specifics. What do you mean by "twisted" and how can I fix that? The idea is that his spells have still technically been increasing based on his level, even if he didn't learn any new ones. His spells/day, if he switches back to his base class, would be as if his class level were his levels in the base class +his levels in the PrC; his spells known, however, would be based on his actual level in the class, I guess-I really should think that through more thoroughly, though. It doesn't make enough sense. Damn the necessity to change the spell list... Speaking of the spell list, I would love to get an actual list here. There are spells that fit the class that don't have the descriptors, and I want to find more Shadow and Darkness spells so I can get rid of the Phantasm ones; they don't fit all too well...
wolfie-kun 02-04-06, 04:24 PM	Anyone else have some opinions?
MaverickWolf 02-18-06, 01:19 PM	Friendly neighborhood :bump: and a quick question: Can a Shadow of Twilight further enhance their shadow blade through enchanting like a normal weapon?
wolfie-kun 02-18-06, 02:45 PM	Friendly neighborhood :bump: and a quick question: Can a Shadow of Twilight further enhance their shadow blade through enchanting like a normal weapon? I'm not sure if they should be able to or not. I don't think there would be any balance issues with it (it's pretty weak for a magic weapon at the respective levels it's granted, but it is free), but flavor-wise one must wonder how a wizard can bestow magic permanently upon something that is made of shadow. I'm still looking for a good source for Shadow and Dark spells...
MaverickWolf 02-18-06, 04:32 PM	I'm not sure if they should be able to or not. I don't think there would be any balance issues with it (it's pretty weak for a magic weapon at the respective levels it's granted, but it is free), but flavor-wise one must wonder how a wizard can bestow magic permanently upon something that is made of shadow. I'm still looking for a good source for Shadow and Dark spells...Unfortunately, there's not a lot of good sources for such spells. They really do need to be custom-brewed to get any decent number of them.
wolfie-kun 02-25-06, 12:37 PM	:bump: Alrighty now: I've got a spell list together for the class, and because of that spell list (over half is from the Spell Compendium) I had to reduce the BAB to a poor progression and make the Shadow Blade a +1 skillful longsword so they can at least use that at a 3/4 progression. This is because the class would be broken if they kept a 3/4 BAB with some of the spells they get. Past that, the only other change is very minor (or maybe major, depending on your DM and your alignment): the DR granted by Shadow Absorption is now vs. good and evil, more in line with what I had originally intended.
TailsofElements 04-02-06, 02:49 PM	Cool class. Might use it for my next character.
wolfie-kun 04-15-06, 03:15 PM	:bump: Just to see if I can get any more input on the class.
wolfie-kun 05-19-06, 03:05 PM	Okay, this isn't for random bumping this time. Has anyone tried to build a character with levels in this PrC? If so, how'd you manage it, and was it balanced about the same power level as other characters of the same level? Is it even possible to get into this PrC immediately following 5th level? Can a character get in before 10th, at least? Also, I just now took out the prereq of ranks in Hide and Listen...it would be somewhat tough to get them, as most base classes leading up to this PrC have 2+Int skill points per level, and have Hide and Listen as cross-class skills. I replaced the skill ranks with a requirement to be able to spontaneously cast 2nd level arcane spells. I may change that to 3rd level, don't know yet. I also noticed that, as is, there is no way for a Shadow of Twilight to actually get 9th level spells. Is there anything that I would need to change in order to give them spells per day at all levels except 4th and 8th instead of all except 3rd, 6th, and 9th? I mean, if I change it to that, would the class still be balanced, or would I need to tone down the power level of one or two abilities?
wolfie-kun 05-20-06, 01:49 PM	Anyone? Hello?
MoonSprite 05-22-06, 10:35 AM	Easiest way (Cleric 1/Sorcerer 4) is yet not viable because of the number of spells with the shadow subschool or darkness descriptor. In the SRD, two spells with the darkness descriptor, and 8 spells with the shadow subschool. All of 2nd level or higher. Maybe reduce the number of spells required (maybe 2nd level spells with at least 1 spell with the darkness descriptor) Better spellcasting,please? And it should require at least 4 ranks in Hide (because of the class ability) Those are if your idea for the class is to take it as your 6th level.
wolfie-kun 05-22-06, 11:39 AM	Easiest way (Cleric 1/Sorcerer 4) is yet not viable because of the number of spells with the shadow subschool or darkness descriptor. In the SRD, two spells with the darkness descriptor, and 8 spells with the shadow subschool. All of 2nd level or higher. Maybe reduce the number of spells required (maybe 2nd level spells with at least 1 spell with the darkness descriptor) Better spellcasting,please? And it should require at least 4 ranks in Hide (because of the class ability) Those are if your idea for the class is to take it as your 6th level. In the first place, half the spells on the spell list aren't SRD... Okay, I'll require 4 ranks in Hide, that does sound better (which would mean as a cross-class skill you'd need to be 5th level and spend 8 skill points on it...yeah, that sounds about right, and shouldn't be too tough to get). And the Darkness domain-Spell Compendium-is now a requirement instead of a specific number of spells with those descriptors (meaning your first cleric level will have you getting the Darkness domain, either that or taking Arcane Disciple for that domain and finding a different method for the spontaneous cure/inflict casting). Or if you don't have a way to get the spontaneous cure/inflict spells other than a level in cleric, you're simply one level down on spells/day because of that level in cleric. Unfortunately, the class would be too powerful if I gave better spellcasting, and...you still can't get 9th level spells if you have a level of Cleric. Damn. I'd have to remove the cure/inflict spells from the list to improve that, though. This makes me sad. Thanks MoonSprite. Now, does anyone have ideas on making the class so that losing only one level of spellcasting is viable?
MoonSprite 05-22-06, 12:43 PM	Mm... that´s a hard one. d6 to d4 and 4 to 2 skill points coul make it a full caster, but loses some spark. Maybe a tad bit harder requirements, maybe one or two feats, or a roleplaying requirement. That should balance things a bit Although you could make it so it loses spellcasting only at 1st and 6th. (And maybe you could make that DR 3/-, 4/- and 5/- because it is already hard to have both evil and good in a single weapon and is a limited time amount per day)
wolfie-kun 05-22-06, 07:05 PM	Mm... that´s a hard one. d6 to d4 and 4 to 2 skill points coul make it a full caster, but loses some spark. Maybe a tad bit harder requirements, maybe one or two feats, or a roleplaying requirement. That should balance things a bit Although you could make it so it loses spellcasting only at 1st and 6th. (And maybe you could make that DR 3/-, 4/- and 5/- because it is already hard to have both evil and good in a single weapon and is a limited time amount per day) About the DR, the "and" actually means "or". That's just how they do it in D&D. And the problem with losing even just two levels of casting is that a sorcerer doesn't get 9th level spells until 18th level. 1 level of cleric takes that to 19th level. Two lost levels of spellcasting take it to 21st. So, not necessarily full casting, but something to take the power level down just enough so that you lose only one level of spellcasting. *light bulb* That one level of Cleric required is pretty much the same as losing a level of spellcasting...particularly since you need 2nd level arcane spells to get into the class. Once you're in, you lose your spells, so your cleric level looks pretty crappy, except for your increased weapon proficiencies and the single d8 hit die, making you a slightly-less-squishy-than-normal sorc until you get a level in this class. Perhaps it doesn't need anything changed, and you simply don't gain spells at 1st level in the class (meaning you have the same spells per day as you did one level before that). I think that will work pretty well, though of course it will need some playtesting. EDIT: Just noticed something else. You go from spontaneous spellcasting to preparing spells again, only you gain spontaneous casting for cure/inflict spells. That's another major loss right there. I think it really might be balanced to lose only one level of spells, right as you take a level in the class. I'll put it at that for now, and see what people think (if they'd ever look at this damn thread...I'm thinking the only reason it originally got any attention was because the first version of it was so terrible).
Ryuu_Tenshi 06-07-06, 08:00 PM	One itty bitty thing: If I recall you wanted this class to emulate Riku. thing about Riku is, he's the LEAST spellcasty type of any of the Keyblade Bearers in Kingdom Hearts. Sora's got Arcane, Mickey's got Divine... Riku NEVER casts spells other than summoning Heartless. At least not that I can tell. This is especially true if you go by his Chain of Memories incarnation. He -only- has weapon cards and only gets interesting powers once he's in Dark Mode. Yes, in KHII he has the little Dark Aura and Cure Potion things, and also Dark Sheild which I guess you could say are Cure and Inflict and a class ability, but.... dunno. *shrug* But as a class it's fine.
wolfie-kun 06-08-06, 08:14 AM	One itty bitty thing: If I recall you wanted this class to emulate Riku. thing about Riku is, he's the LEAST spellcasty type of any of the Keyblade Bearers in Kingdom Hearts. Sora's got Arcane, Mickey's got Divine... Riku NEVER casts spells other than summoning Heartless. At least not that I can tell. This is especially true if you go by his Chain of Memories incarnation. He -only- has weapon cards and only gets interesting powers once he's in Dark Mode. Yes, in KHII he has the little Dark Aura and Cure Potion things, and also Dark Sheild which I guess you could say are Cure and Inflict and a class ability, but.... dunno. *shrug* But as a class it's fine. In concept, my dear friend, in concept. In role-playing situations, they may be a lot like Riku. The class abilities were originally intended to reflect some of Riku's abilities (such as the shadow blade, which I had intended to be something like Soul Eater), but they weren't all quite so directly based on him. If you really want the flavor of playing Riku to reflect in your class abilities, I'm certain there are other options, and I did say it wasn't a perfect representation. I'm glad you like the class though. I though it would fit, overall, into a KH setting, considering.
Ryuu_Tenshi 06-08-06, 04:01 PM	It would absolutly fit into a KH campaign setting. And as I said, it's a fine class in general, I'd actually love to try it out. Furthermore, since it's only got a touch of the KH-flavor, I might even be able to convince one of my DM's to let me try it :P After reading this class, I got another interesting idea, partly inspired by KH and partly inspired by one of the vesiges from Tome of Magic: what about a Twilight class that goes along with the Paladin/Blackguard pairing? We have Paladins, and we have "Anti-paladins" or Blackguards... what about something in-between? The vestige in question started out as a paladin, and became a blackguard (if I recall correctly). After that, he left the path of the blackguard and gave up war in general. Thus, the idea is someone who either was good, turned to evil, but then decided that evil was stupid too, or someone evil, who turned to good, and then went "screw it" and turned to walk a path between. Not sure what the class features would be, but some of the requirements would be: "Alignment: Lawful Neutral Special: Must have had the Good and Evil alignments at some point, and have willingly changed from both those alignments." *shrug* just thoughts.
wolfie-kun 06-09-06, 12:42 PM	After reading this class, I got another interesting idea, partly inspired by KH and partly inspired by one of the vesiges from Tome of Magic: what about a Twilight class that goes along with the Paladin/Blackguard pairing? We have Paladins, and we have "Anti-paladins" or Blackguards... what about something in-between? The vestige in question started out as a paladin, and became a blackguard (if I recall correctly). After that, he left the path of the blackguard and gave up war in general. Thus, the idea is someone who either was good, turned to evil, but then decided that evil was stupid too, or someone evil, who turned to good, and then went "screw it" and turned to walk a path between. Not sure what the class features would be, but some of the requirements would be: "Alignment: Lawful Neutral Special: Must have had the Good and Evil alignments at some point, and have willingly changed from both those alignments." *shrug* just thoughts. Make a new post with some of the ideas, and come up with a few concepts for the base classes necessary and the actual class features. I'll help flesh it out, no prob.
wolfie-kun 06-19-06, 02:33 PM	:bump: No one ever said anything about the change in spellcasting progression...does that mean it's okay?
wolfie-kun 06-28-06, 03:35 PM	Again I ask, is the change in spellcasting progression balanced? Also, I just now actually put the Hide req actually in the class description...didn't notice that I'd forgotten it. >.>
LordPendragon 06-28-06, 04:16 PM	I'm not sure about it being balanced... I've never been much good at balancing things. However, I did notice one thing... the DR is 5/good and evil, which makes no sense. There isn't a damage type available that is good and evil at the same time. What it should be is either "5/good or evil" or "5/nongood and nonevil". Probably the nongood/nonevil version makes most sense for this class.
wolfie-kun 06-28-06, 07:53 PM	I'm not sure about it being balanced... I've never been much good at balancing things. However, I did notice one thing... the DR is 5/good and evil, which makes no sense. There isn't a damage type available that is good and evil at the same time. What it should be is either "5/good or evil" or "5/nongood and nonevil". Probably the nongood/nonevil version makes most sense for this class. >.> Something fooled me into thinking that they never used the word "and" for that...um...getting changed now... >.>
LordPendragon 06-28-06, 08:36 PM	I read over the spellcasting progression and spell list, and they seem mostly balanced, except maybe a little confusing. Since the spell list is mostly divine, and the class prepares spells like a cleric, you may want to cut the arcane element altogether. Personally, I think the flavour of the class would be more well matched by requiring 2nd (or 3rd) level divine spellcasting, and also the Sun domain (since you seem to be emphasizing both dark and light in the class). The only part of the class that could really be considered unbalanced is the Shadow Armour. 40% miss chance is a lot, especially for a primary caster (who're supposed to be easy targets). You also may want to change the deflection bonus to an armour bonus, to discourage the use of real armour.
wolfie-kun 06-28-06, 09:01 PM	I read over the spellcasting progression and spell list, and they seem mostly balanced, except maybe a little confusing. Since the spell list is mostly divine, and the class prepares spells like a cleric, you may want to cut the arcane element altogether. Personally, I think the flavour of the class would be more well matched by requiring 2nd (or 3rd) level divine spellcasting, and also the Sun domain (since you seem to be emphasizing both dark and light in the class). To some extent, the arcane element is a balancing factor. You have to be able to spontaneously cast cure/inflict spells as a cleric in addition to having the Darkness domain. Then 2nd level arcane spells. You'll be taking your first level of this class at 7th, instead of 6th (not that it matters too much), but you then immediately lose that pretty part of arcane casting called the familiar. Past that, there are very, very few shadow-ish spells that are divine. They're almost all arcane. And no, I'm not emphasizing anything at all about light through the class features...the only thing tha's even close to that is Path to Twilight. Lastly, I want them to keep the arcane spell failure chance for wearing real armor. That's why Shadow Armor only gives up to a +6 deflection bonus. Trust me, his AC will still suck. Just not quite as bad as a Wizard or Sorcerer's. The only part of the class that could really be considered unbalanced is the Shadow Armour. 40% miss chance is a lot, especially for a primary caster (who're supposed to be easy targets). You also may want to change the deflection bonus to an armour bonus, to discourage the use of real armour. Okay, don't know aobut you, but I don't think someone with that spell list is ever going to be an easy target, not even for a monk with Mage Killer. However, a constant 40% miss chance is a little too much... Do you think it should scale to 20% miss chance, then 30% instead? Or maybe to 15%, then 20%, then 25%? Not giving them divine casting, not worrying about bonus types...
wolfie-kun 07-01-06, 11:51 PM	Does anyone else think that they should be casting divine spells instead? Anyway, changed scaling of the miss chance provided by Shadow Armor to 20%, then 30% (instead of 25% and 40%).
wolfie-kun 07-25-06, 11:13 PM	Does anyone else think that they should be casting divine spells instead? I repeat my question.
Neodymium 07-28-06, 05:14 AM	um... isn't anybody going to say something about losing all other weapon and armor proficiencies, but not getting the only weapon you can use until 2nd level? i understand the sacrifice thing, but -4 to every attack for an entire level is pretty intense.
wolfie-kun 07-29-06, 08:59 AM	um... isn't anybody going to say something about losing all other weapon and armor proficiencies, but not getting the only weapon you can use until 2nd level? i understand the sacrifice thing, but -4 to every attack for an entire level is pretty intense. *points at spell list* IIRC, you don't need weapon or armor proficiencies with those spells available to you the instant you enter the class. I'll admit, yes, that the first class level is going to be pretty damn tough, almost no matter what you do (other than making sure you have 3rd level spells before you enter). But really, a 1st level Shadow of Twilight is going to be doing more battlefield set-up than anything else; making things so the rogue can sneak attack, and the wizard (since the SoT is able to heal the party shouldn't need a cleric) can maintain a safe distance, being well obscured without wasting any of his spells for the day. The instant you've hit level 2 and have 3rd level spells, though, most of what you lost gets made up for with the spell lists and proficiency in the shadow blade.
wolfie-kun 09-02-06, 05:45 PM	Okay, so I just made a huge, huge edit to the class. I think it's overall more balanced, in that its party role can be seen much more clearly. It no longer has any divine casting prerequisites, and no longer needs to prepare spells. All of the class abilities have changed as well. Take a look at the Recent Edits sblock in the OP for more specific info on what changed, or if you're just now taking your first look at the class, skip that and read on through the OP. Please be sure to comment on anything that looks wierd, or, if you like, on the class as a whole.
NeoRaven01 09-02-06, 06:02 PM	:bump:
wolfie-kun 09-04-06, 08:59 PM	... Does no one have anything to say? At all? Should I re-post the thread without all the clutter?
wolfie-kun 09-07-06, 11:37 PM	:bump: I'm seriously about to re-post this...someone has to have something to say... Good? Bad? In-between? Would you touch it with a 10 ft pole? With a spiked chain? Anything? *gets puppy eyes*
MoonSprite 09-08-06, 10:54 AM	:bump: I'm seriously about to re-post this...someone has to have something to say... Good? Bad? In-between? Would you touch it with a 10 ft pole? With a spiked chain? Anything? *gets puppy eyes* You mean these puppy eyes? :bigeyes: For the moment, I like what I see. For the moment. Maybe later I'll do a real analysis of the class abilities. Also, there should be a special 10th level ability besides the shadow striking sword. Please? Hope it helps! -GFV
wolfie-kun 09-08-06, 06:38 PM	a +3 enhancement bonus isn't good enough? ... I'll try to think of something.
wolfie-kun 09-23-06, 01:18 PM	You mean these puppy eyes? :bigeyes: For the moment, I like what I see. For the moment. Maybe later I'll do a real analysis of the class abilities. Also, there should be a special 10th level ability besides the shadow striking sword. Please? Hope it helps! -GFV Okay, Moon, you have your capstone ability now. It's pretty :D
Ryuu_Tenshi 09-23-06, 02:59 PM	... y'know what, Wolfie, I'd love to see this guy fighting alongside a Sun/Shadow Ninja (ToB) Or perhaps even more fun, make my killer Fallen Sun/Shadow Ninja BBEG and have him face off against a Shadow of Twilight. To make it fair (and make up for the BBEG's two Legacy weapons, the fact that he's 17+, and Vampire template) maybe the Shadow of Twlight could use Oblivion and the Faerie Garb. *whistles: this is the ultimate showdown, of ultimate destiny...)
wolfie-kun 09-23-06, 05:20 PM	... y'know what, Wolfie, I'd love to see this guy fighting alongside a Sun/Shadow Ninja (ToB) Or perhaps even more fun, make my killer Fallen Sun/Shadow Ninja BBEG and have him face off against a Shadow of Twilight. To make it fair (and make up for the BBEG's two Legacy weapons, the fact that he's 17+, and Vampire template) maybe the Shadow of Twlight could use Oblivion and the Faerie Garb. *whistles: this is the ultimate showdown, of ultimate destiny...) Oblivion and the Faerie Garb were both made specifically to counteract their own negatives, so...they're stronger than most. Plus, the SoT has 9th level spells pretty easily, and gets some damn nasty combos (like wraithstrike cast the round he uses a whirlwind attack with the Twilight Blade). I saw the Shadow Sun Ninja and I went "Damn it, they stole my flavor!!" :weep:
wolfie-kun 01-18-07, 02:32 PM	:bump:
wolfie-kun 04-06-07, 10:27 AM	Hm...starting to feel like the class is a little underpowered. Possibly add a very short maneuver progression or something?
tl 04-20-07, 02:36 PM	well, at the first glance, entering as a arcane caster is pretty bad idea. you lose a lot of excellent spells, and characters drawn to this PrC may well be better suited to take up Arcane trickster or Unseen Seer. it's quite powerful at high levels, granting a fair amount of nice high level spells to the spell list, especially nice for a spontaneous caster, but a fixed spell list limits it in lower levels. it looks like a good dip for a caster with very little spells known. this is offset a bit by possible early entry, but still... now as a mystery user... it made me want to try this :) mystery users are considered quite underpowered at the moment, so adding a few Shadow Stance maneuvers would probably attract a bit more arcane casters, while giving mystery users some very needed extra edge (perhaps look at Shadow Sun Ninja). one question, however: why so low entry requirements? I mean, prepared arcane caster with Hide as class skill (there's sure a way to get that) is in on his 4th. all in all, I like it :D
wolfie-kun 04-20-07, 03:03 PM	well, at the first glance, entering as a arcane caster is pretty bad idea. you lose a lot of excellent spells, and characters drawn to this PrC may well be better suited to take up Arcane trickster or Unseen Seer. now as a mystery user... it made me want to try this :) mystery users are considered quite underpowered at the moment, so adding a few Shadow Stance maneuvers would probably attract a bit more arcane casters, while giving mystery users some very needed extra edge (perhaps look at Shadow Sun Ninja). I like it :D Thanks. I'll think of a progression, maybe four maneuvers known, two readied, and one stance, all Shadow Hand, of course. Sound good?
tl 04-20-07, 03:18 PM	only one stance limits it to first level, which may be a good thing, but perhaps give one more in late levels (9th or 10th). I think there's no doubt about recovery method (swordsage's, of course). warblade's would make it a bit to powerful and crusader's... well, it' crusader's. :D
wolfie-kun 04-20-07, 03:20 PM	only one stance limits it to first level, which may be a good thing, but perhaps give one more in late levels (9th or 10th). I think there's no doubt about recovery method (swordsage's, of course). warblade's would make it a bit to powerful and crusader's... well, it' crusader's. :D Hm...new maneuver known at 1, 3, 6, 9; readied at 1, 5; stance at 10?
tl 04-20-07, 03:34 PM	I haven't study ToB PrCs, but classes are forced to take a first level stance when they get their first stance (which is a 1st level for all three). if that would not be the case for your PrC then it makes sense. but there are only two 1st level SH stances, Island of Blades, which wouldn't see much action with this PrC and Child of Shadow, which overlaps with PrCs abilities. so perhaps giving a first level only stance soon wouldn't unbalance things. your PrC should also probably count as Initiator PrC for Initiator level calculations. other then that, it looks nice
wolfie-kun 04-20-07, 03:40 PM	That was supossed to say "stance at 1 and 10." Typo...>.> It would be full IL of course, so even someone with no martial adept levels could at least get a 5th level stance and a 5th level maneuver. Going to add Martial Study to the prereqs when I add the rest, but don't wait around--I won't get to it until tomorrow morning, most likely.
wolfie-kun 04-21-07, 11:24 AM	Aaaaaaand update. Just looked at the last part of your first post, tl. And 2nd level spontaneous casting is required, so a prepared caster isn't going to cut it.
tl 04-22-07, 04:34 AM	Just looked at the last part of your first post, tl. And 2nd level spontaneous casting is required, so a prepared caster isn't going to cut it. totally overlooked. my bad, my bad... maybe you ought to mention the fact that first stance must be first level... otherwise it becomes a perfect dip for Assassin's Stance...
wolfie-kun 04-22-07, 08:10 AM	totally overlooked. my bad, my bad... maybe you ought to mention the fact that first stance must be first level... otherwise it becomes a perfect dip for Assassin's Stance... Probably a good idea, didn't think of that.