Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sevenaya 11-09-07, 10:34 PM	A friend showed me a copy of complete adventurer today. In that book I say a feat called Goad, and it dawned on me that this was a skill very similar to Taunt from WoW. I thought, hunh, imagine a dwarven defender with that, wouldn't that rock (get it, dwarves are like rocks, with dwarven defenders rocking even more so). Then I realized its a charisma based skill, my char is a fighter 8 DD 2, so I ask, is it worth going the extra mile taking one point of charisma to get 13, and grab this feat? If it worked he would be the "Ultimate Tank"!! :eek:
vorpo 11-09-07, 10:39 PM	DD pops in my mind when I just read the title. I'd say go for it if it suits your character flavor-wise. Mechanically, I'd say it works perfectly as DD can't move with his special ability (stance or what have you).
Board_Rider 11-09-07, 11:00 PM	I played a DD with this feat...it's nice. I would go with the Knight though and save the feat.
jradd777 11-10-07, 12:16 AM	It's weird, I have a friend that did a lot of optimization to make a DD have upwards of 60 AC at level 20 without fighting defensively, etc. or something like that. However, I know someone else that put together a build based on making sure he grabbed certain Swashbuckler abilities, and his character ended up having over 75 AC without using anything and I think over 120 AC potentially. I don't remember fully the details but I do remember that it was crazy how high an AC he was able to get so that it even exceeded a well-made DD. Also, I know someone who made a Knight and gave him Goad, so that he had both Goad and Knight's Challenge abilities. Unfortunately, Goad and those knight's abilities are good but won't make an enemy go kamikazee, so be careful of that because our player abused the ability because he didn't read it fully.
sevenaya 11-10-07, 02:56 AM	Ty for the feedback, Vander Stormpike will now "Goad" mobs into attacking him (cookie for the reference, internets loss for missing the reference).
Jaxgaret 11-10-07, 04:08 AM	The Crusader is the ultimate tanking class.
Marcus Majarra 11-10-07, 09:46 AM	The Crusader is the ultimate tanking class. Jaxgaret for the win!
imakuni67 11-10-07, 12:35 PM	Knight + DD = good combo?
The_Shaman 11-10-07, 12:40 PM	If you want to, you know, move every now and then - no. If you are guarding a 5-foot wide tunnel, it's pretty decent. Not quite crusader or a decent spellcasting/manifesting build, but decent. As for Goad, it would have been a much better feat if it required a swift action, not a move one. As it is, it's most useful for those who use standard actions a lot (ToB classes) or can give themselves another move action for a full attack (psy-warriors).
Jaxgaret 11-11-07, 03:10 AM	Jaxgaret for the win! Heh. Yeah, I know it was off-topic. I dislike misleading thread titles, I answered that to the T... If you weren't being sarcastic, my apologies, and thanks :) Also, no, a DD with Goad is not the ultimate tanking class. See my above post for the reason why.
Cartigan 11-12-07, 12:29 AM	In my upcoming gaming, I am planning to run a Knight into Dwarven Defender and see if that comes out to the quintessential tank I am thinking it is.
Marcus Majarra 11-12-07, 06:46 PM	If you weren't being sarcastic, my apologies, and thanks I wasn't being sarcastic. The best tanking class is indeed the Crusader. And with little effort, too.
Cartigan 11-12-07, 07:52 PM	Assuming you are allowed Tome of Battle.
rironin 11-12-07, 07:58 PM	Knight + DD = good combo?Great flavor combo - the only problem is that many of the Knight's abilities have DCs tied to your knight level, so you will end up weakening many of your powers when you take DD. For gestalt, though, I'd love to try a Knight//Favored Soul/DD.
Tempest Stormwind 11-12-07, 08:08 PM	Assuming you are allowed Tome of Battle. And why wouldn't you be? It's everything you've been trying to do with melee and failing for years. I like citing this particular example. Imagine that you, a mighty defender, have a wounded ally and just over that hill is an advancing army of demons. Naturally, you move between them and your charge and issue a challenge: "Bring on your thousands, one at a time or all at once, I don't care. None shall pass!" If you're a paladin, you ready an action to hit a guy and take your lone AoO as you normally would (since no paladin amps their Dexterity). That's worse than the party rogue, who could do the same thing but has a higher Dexterity for things like Combat Reflexes. If you're a knight, it's more of the same, except you might have possibly baited one of the incoming demons to attack you while the others are free to keep on moving. They can't charge adjacent to you thanks to Bulwark of Defense, but that's still not going to help all that much since they can still just walk around you. If you're hit, you have a low Fortitude save for some reason: hope to hell they don't have poison or Fort-bases Save-or-Dies. If you're a crusader, you not only lay out holy smack with your readied actions, you heal your charge at the same time. Furthermore, you either force every enemy to take AoOs if they try *any* form of movement to move past you, or (with a different stance) instead take a -4 penalty on attacks against your charge. If you *are* hit, you ignore the damage until the next round, whereupon you can actually create a temporary reserve of HP to absorb it before it hits you directly, meaning you Just Don't Die TM. Tell me which of those three mechanical representations best fits that classic champion image presented at the top, which probably has its roots back in the earliest days of paladins.
Cartigan 11-12-07, 08:48 PM	Great flavor combo - the only problem is that many of the Knight's abilities have DCs tied to your knight level, so you will end up weakening many of your powers when you take DD. For gestalt, though, I'd love to try a Knight//Favored Soul/DD. Actually, if you are going to prestige out of Knight, your Charisma is really more important since you only get half you Knight level to DC - half of 7 is 3 which is 16 Cha. The only problem is DD forces you to take 13 Dexterity. And why wouldn't you be? It's everything you've been trying to do with melee and failing for years. Which is the point. It overshadows all other fighting classes, even those mixed casters. If you're a knight, it's more of the same, except you might have possibly baited one of the incoming demons to attack you while the others are free to keep on moving. Yeah, if you are below level 4. And if you get to level 6 you can absorb their damage. So good job, a Crusader below level 4 is a better defender than a Knight. If you're hit, you have a low Fortitude save for some reason: hope to hell they don't have poison or Fort-bases Save-or-Dies. Oh, so our enemies have poison or save or dies? Lovely. I assume we are above level 4 now. Hope your Crusader doesn't get mind controlled, with his low Will saves, because then we are really SOL.
Tempest Stormwind 11-12-07, 10:41 PM	Which is the point. It overshadows all other fighting classes, even those mixed casters. Bollocks. It's just more fun and better at *tanking*. If you're talking about offense, you can't beat core melee, even in the ToB. And if you add in casters to the mix, well, the ToB just *tanks*. I can show you the math to back up my point -- can you? Yeah, if you are below level 4. And if you get to level 6 you can absorb their damage. So good job, a Crusader below level 4 is a better defender than a Knight. Again, a knight is the poor man's crusader. If you're in an environment without the ToB -- and in such an environment there's really no reason to go melee in the first place -- then it'll serve. Barely. Honestly, have you ever *read* Devoted Spirit, the crusader's signature discipline? It's evident you haven't. Oh, so our enemies have poison or save or dies? Lovely. I assume we are above level 4 now. Hope your Crusader doesn't get mind controlled, with his low Will saves, because then we are really SOL. The crusader, unlike the knight, has Mettle, Indomitable Soul (Cha to Will saves), and Zealous Surge (reroll Will saves). It's evident you haven't read the class.
Cartigan 11-12-07, 11:30 PM	Bollocks. It's just more fun and better at *tanking*. If you're talking about offense, you can't beat core melee, even in the ToB. And if you add in casters to the mix, well, the ToB just *tanks*. I can show you the math to back up my point -- can you? I fail to see a point here. Again, a knight is the poor man's crusader. The Knight is parallel to what the Crusader would be if not for the power creep created by maneuvers. And then it would be a definitively better tank. The real problem with the Knight is people deciding they were going to set up parts of it so it easily prestiges into Cavalier. Honestly, have you ever *read* Devoted Spirit, the crusader's signature discipline? It's evident you haven't. It's evident I don't care about you acting like a stuck up know-it-all. You contributed nothing to your defense or even the conversation. The crusader, unlike the knight, has Mettle, Indomitable Soul (Cha to Will saves), and Zealous Surge (reroll Will saves). It's evident you haven't read the class. Constitution automatically goes to Fortitude saves.
DM-Scott 11-13-07, 12:10 AM	I have to say I was miffed by reading the last couple of posts. Tempest Stormwind simply pointed out why the crusader was the best tanking class, which he gave a mechanical example as to why this would be true: If you're a crusader, you not only lay out holy smack with your readied actions, you heal your charge at the same time. Furthermore, you either force every enemy to take AoOs if they try *any* form of movement to move past you, or (with a different stance) instead take a -4 penalty on attacks against your charge. If you *are* hit, you ignore the damage until the next round, whereupon you can actually create a temporary reserve of HP to absorb it before it hits you directly, meaning you Just Don't Die TM. Cartigan attacked - without provocation or evidence - the Tome of Battle and Tempest Stormwind's post, without any mechanical representation to either the crusader or the knight; states the ToB classes to be overpowered as the reason one wouldn't have access to the book, then continues to say the crusader is a better tank up until level 4, and that then the knight is better (so why is the ToB overpowered then?), and then cites the crusader's will save as a failing point compared to the knight (who has a poor fortitude save). Tempest said he could back up his point through example and logic, and asked if Cartigan could do the same. Tempest goes to note that it seems Cartigan doesn't really even know what he's talking about, as he doesn't even seem to understand the crusader class or know what it actually is or isn't capable of. Tempest points out the crusader's abilities to cover its weaker save, and make it a better tank against the Fortitude and Will save effects as well. I say attacked because Cartigan goes on to say: It's evident I don't care about you acting like a stuck up know-it-all. You contributed nothing to your defense or even the conversation. Tempest hadn't initiated any sort of aggression, so why would he need a defense? However he did contribute something to his defense AND the conversation if examples, flavor, and reasoning qualify. In fact, he actually sounds less like a stuck up know-it-all because he doesn't seem to be speaking ignorantly or without reason. I find this very rude, and in poor taste, and I think Tempest Stormwind deserves an apology for that unprovoked name calling and that general behavior. Back to the topic at hand... Constitution automatically goes to Fortitude saves. Which is true for all classes (my weenie wizard has just as good a fortitude save as the knight if my con matches his, which isn't too hard). However, what isn't true for all classes is the crusader gets his charisma bonus to his will saves (similar to divine grace), which means he can improve his saving throws more than usual - having an equal constitution to the knight, he will have a much higher fortitude save, and he adds his wisdom to his low will save, but in addition any spells or items that buff his charisma will further bring up his will save, as well as improving his charisma based skills - combined with the ability to re-roll against will saves, which further makes for a great determined tank (he's not going to turn and slaughter the person he's protecting easily). This means he's an effective tank in physical combat, and fairly sturdy against spells which would simply remove him from the equation (such as flesh to stone, finger of death, dominate person, and so forth). Combined with an ability to provoke your opponent to focus on you (as the Goad feat in question does), it makes you very effective at tanking for others. All Goad requires is cha 13 and a BAB of +1, which the crusader can qualify for very easily - and it just so happens that he will have at least a +1 bonus to put towards his will save from charisma. Spiffy, eh? Peace out, Game on.
Cartigan 11-13-07, 12:20 AM	Cartigan attacked - without provocation or evidence - the Tome of Battle and Tempest Stormwind's post, without any mechanical representation to either the crusader or the knight; states the ToB classes to be overpowered as the reason one wouldn't have access to the book, then continues to say the crusader is a better tank up until level 4, and that then the knight is better (so why is the ToB overpowered then?), and then cites the crusader's will save as a failing point compared to the knight (who has a poor fortitude save). That's only kind of what I said. I was pointing out that at level 4+, the Knight has an ability which specifically gives it the ability to stop an attacking brood of creatures. And if he is going to point out who has weak what, the Crusader has weak will saves as the Knight has weak Fortitude saves; however, even with the move to add Charisma to Will saves, it won't add up as much as Constitution to Fortitude because Charisma for Crusader is a secondary ability behind Constitution and Strength, where as Constitution is primary for Knight. This requires all the extra roll bonuses to saving itself from getting owned by Will save spells. Tempest hadn't initiated any sort of aggression, so why would he need a defense? However he did contribute something to his defense AND the conversation if examples, flavor, and reasoning qualify. In fact, he actually sounds less like a stuck up know-it-all because he doesn't seem to be speaking ignorantly or without reason. Yes, none of that, just the general stuck up know-it-all option of deriding an opponent's presumed lack of knowledge. I fail to see how him insulting my knowledge of the class contributes in anyway to proof of the class' tanking ability. I find this very rude, and in poor taste, and I think Tempest Stormwind deserves an apology for that unprovoked name calling and that general behavior. I disagree, so no. However, what isn't true for all classes is the crusader gets his charisma bonus to his will saves (similar to divine grace), which means he can improve his saving throws more than usual That is a highly disengenuous statement givement the statement you just made about Constitution and Fortitude saves - having an equal constitution to the knight, he will have a much higher fortitude save, and he adds his wisdom to his low will save, And the Knight will have a much higher Will save (due to Charisma also being a secondary ability for the Knight) with a Fortitude save on par, but more than likely higher, than the Will save for the Crusader. Already explained. *snip* I would have kept going but there is no point. You are purposefully being obtuse. You are attacking the Knight solely because I am defending it and then using completely different arguments to say the Crusader is better for the same reasons as the Knight is dismissible. Good day to you, sir.
Jaxgaret 11-13-07, 01:49 AM	Tome of Battle is the best thing that ever happened to fighting types in D&D 3.5e. If you think it's really overpowering, here's a simple houserule to introduce this wonderful system into your game while still keeping your traditional base warrior classes in the mix: no more than half of a character's levels may be in a Martial Adept class. There you go, now you can go ahead and try out all the neat new stuff in Tome of Battle. Initiator levels even work quite well with multiclassing, so the houserule works on that front as well! ToB's really not that unbalanced. It just gives a fighting character options. Like the spellcasters get. I find it quite fun to play a ToB character.
Pandapeep 11-13-07, 02:43 AM	This might not be the best tank, but a Cleric/Ordained Champion is a solid tank. You have cleric spells, 2 free feats, not to mention, depending on your cha, dozens of smites per day by like 6th level, diehard, spontaneous war domain spells(Magic Weapon, Spiritual Weapon, Magic Vestment, Divine Power, Flame strike, blade barrier, Power Word Blind, Power Word Stun, Power Word Kill), swift action spontaneous casting, channel your spells into a weapon, wis to attack and dmg in place of str, and, damage reduction up to 9/chaotic The class is made of killing evil. Or good. Depends on the god you worship.
Marcus Majarra 11-13-07, 02:51 AM	Which is the point. It overshadows all other fighting classes, even those mixed casters. How do you figure this out? Yeah, if you are below level 4. And if you get to level 6 you can absorb their damage. So good job, a Crusader below level 4 is a better defender than a Knight. This value of this argument is debatable. While the 6th-level knight can indeed absorb half of the damage dealt to an ally, that ally has to remain adjacent to the knight in order for this ability to be active. This actually brings the shielded ally closer to melee and, by extension, closer to danger. The idea behind an effective tank is to keep opponents away from your allies. While reducing the amount of damage taken by allies is nothing to laugh at, it is by no means the most effective tactic when your ally has to remain in melee, especially when your ally's AC is lower than yours. In these cases, it's simply more effective for opponents to beat on your ally and damage you both more effectively, especially with feats like Power Attack coming into play. If this ability were to work at a range (a la shield other), I would agree that this ability would be great for tanks. Since this is not the case, I feel the knight's shield ally feature comes up short. Oh, so our enemies have poison or save or dies? Lovely. I assume we are above level 4 now. Hope your Crusader doesn't get mind controlled, with his low Will saves, because then we are really SOL. Well, if we're all going to jump into the whole "save or your character is useless" scenario, we're going to argue for a long time, because neither character gets both of the good saves. From an objective point of view, the crusader still wins over the knight for a couple of reasons: Indomitable Soul: this ability compensates for the crusader's poor Will bonus; nothing compensates the knight's low Fort bonus. Zealous Surge: the fact that you can use this ability after knowing the result of the save is enough to make this ability take the cake. The odds that you'll be forced to save against similar effects often in the same day (especially charm/domination effects) are slim. This ability makes it so that the odds of this actually happening are next to none. Mettle: With excellent fortitude saves and moderate will saves, on average, the crusader gets pretty big mileage from this ability. Not that this matters much, anyway. Save or die effects are more dangerous than save or charm effects, since the latter can simply be dispelled or broken. The Knight is parallel to what the Crusader would be if not for the power creep created by maneuvers. And then it would be a definitively better tank. The real problem with the Knight is people deciding they were going to set up parts of it so it easily prestiges into Cavalier. Actually, I see this the other way around. The knight bonus feats make it so that it can make up what it lacks in tanking, when compared to the crusader, it makes up for in sheer offense. Being mounted extends the area of your knight's bulwark of defense, which is a good thing for blocking movement. Furthermore, being mounted, carrying a lance, and having Spirited Charge means you bring the fight to your opponents, deal mucho damage, and do your best in keeping them in place. While the knight still can't take as much of a beating as the crusader, he can still deal plenty of damage. Constitution automatically goes to Fortitude saves. Which goes for the crusader as well. Or any other class. This argument is nothing out of the ordinary and doesn't show any edge on the knight's part. Heck, Wisdom automatically goes to Will saves. For crusaders, Charisma does it in addition. That's only kind of what I said. I was pointing out that at level 4+, the Knight has an ability which specifically gives it the ability to stop an attacking brood of creatures. And if he is going to point out who has weak what, the Crusader has weak will saves as the Knight has weak Fortitude saves; however, even with the move to add Charisma to Will saves, it won't add up as much as Constitution to Fortitude because Charisma for Crusader is a secondary ability behind Constitution and Strength, where as Constitution is primary for Knight. This requires all the extra roll bonuses to saving itself from getting owned by Will save spells. Many things are wrong with this argument. First, the crusader has a truckload of abilities to stop broods of opponents, first and foremost being the Thicket of Blades stance and the Defensive Rebuke boost. Second, even if a knight will be inclined to favor Constitution, the crusader can afford to disregard both Wisdom and Charisma and obtain the same net gain. As if this wasn't enough, the crusader can even compensate further by getting that extra re-roll AFTER knowing the result. I fail to see how having a second chance you can use is a bad thing, when the knight doesn't get any. Finally, getting owned by Fort spells tends to be more lethal than getting owned by Will spells, which can usually be dispelled. And the Knight will have a much higher Will save (due to Charisma also being a secondary ability for the Knight) with a Fortitude save on par, but more than likely higher, than the Will save for the Crusader. Already explained. This makes little sense either. Charisma in no way benefits the knight's Will saves. Second, the knight's Fort save will not be on par with the crusader's. At level 20, a knight needs 22 Con to be on par with a 10 Con crusader of the same level. This difference is huge, especially in point-buy systems. Similarly, the crusader merely needs 16 in Cha and Wis to be on par with the knight. These ability scores will be far more accessible to the crusader than the 22 Con will be to the knight. Come to think of it, this is true in both point-buy and die roll character generation.
Cartigan 11-13-07, 08:58 AM	This value of this argument is debatable. While the 6th-level knight can indeed absorb half of the damage dealt to an ally, that ally has to remain adjacent to the knight in order for this ability to be active. This actually brings the shielded ally closer to melee and, by extension, closer to danger. The idea behind an effective tank is to keep opponents away from your allies. Excellent point. But stuff like Iron Guard's Glare, Shield Block don't work at any better range. Though they do work differently. While reducing the amount of damage taken by allies is nothing to laugh at, it is by no means the most effective tactic when your ally has to remain in melee, especially when your ally's AC is lower than yours. It would be worth it then to dip into a class that lets you add shield bonuses to your allies. Indomitable Soul: this ability compensates for the crusader's poor Will bonus; nothing compensates the knight's low Fort bonus. Like I said, that is a disingenuous argument. Nothing needs to "compensate" because Constitution automatically adds to Fortitude saves. Great, you get to add your Charisma to your Will saves (where Wisdom is likely a dump stat and either dismissible or hindering). Charisma is a secondary stat for both the Crusader and the Knight; Constitution is a primary stat. It is patently absurd to say Indomitable Soul gives Crusader an edge compared to Knight's Fortitude save because Constitution automatically affects Fortitude. You don't need a class ability to do it. That argument is so stupid I don't understand how you people keep making it. Zealous Surge: the fact that you can use this ability after knowing the result of the save is enough to make this ability take the cake. The odds that you'll be forced to save against similar effects often in the same day (especially charm/domination effects) are slim. This ability makes it so that the odds of this actually happening are next to none. You just make a second shot at a saving throw, there is no guarantee that you make the save. Are you familiar with the Crusader? Mettle: With excellent fortitude saves and moderate will saves, on average, the crusader gets pretty big mileage from this ability. Evasion against Fortitude and Will effects. That is a good effect but seriously, what point are you making here? Actually, I see this the other way around. The knight bonus feats make it so that it can make up what it lacks in tanking, when compared to the crusader, it makes up for in sheer offense. Not really. It is designed to go into Cavalier - a mounted class. Mounted combat is rarely useful in any games. So you will be wasting feats going after mounted combat that could help you defend better or just not be wasting feats. While the knight still can't take as much of a beating as the crusader, he can still deal plenty of damage. The Knight is likely to have plenty of armor based on its abilities. And will have more HP, on average. Even with delayed damage, Knight can take far more of a beating. Which goes for the crusader as well. Or any other class. This argument is nothing out of the ordinary and doesn't show any edge on the knight's part. Heck, Wisdom automatically goes to Will saves. For crusaders, Charisma does it in addition. But the Charisma bonus to Will is not going to outstrip the Constitution bonus to Fortitude for the Knight, despite you people's repeated insistence that it does. Many things are wrong with this argument. First, the crusader has a truckload of abilities to stop broods of opponents, first and foremost being the Thicket of Blades stance and the Defensive Rebuke boost. Thicket of Blades no more stops them than Knight's ability to force any area he threatens as difficult ground. Thicket of Blades just discourages them getting past you, it in no way, shape or form stops them. Same goes for Defensive Rebuke. Test of Mettle forces them to attack you, literally. Second, even if a knight will be inclined to favor Constitution, the crusader can afford to disregard both Wisdom and Charisma and obtain the same net gain. Of course a martial, front-line class is inclined to favor Constitution :rolleyes: As if this wasn't enough, the crusader can even compensate further by getting that extra re-roll AFTER knowing the result. It increases the chance of making the save, it does not guarantee it. This makes little sense either. Charisma in no way benefits the knight's Will saves. But a Knight has good Will saves. Similarly, the crusader merely needs 16 in Cha and Wis to be on par with the knight. Oh, only 16 in a secondary stat and a dump stat to be on par with the Knight. Hope he doesn't need to take hits or do damage. And I don't see you throwing around "point buy" in that argument. These ability scores will be far more accessible to the crusader than the 22 Con will be to the knight. Come to think of it, this is true in both point-buy and die roll character generation. No way by level 20 would I have anything to boost my Con higher than it would already be. I'm tired of arguing this, you are all attacking me just to do it. Your arguments are flimsy, at best, and the same methodology used to attack the Knight is dismissed in favor of touting the Crusader. Good days to all of you. Sit around patting yourselves on the back for making bad arguments.
Tempest Stormwind 11-13-07, 12:27 PM	Excellent point. But stuff like Iron Guard's Glare, Shield Block don't work at any better range. Though they do work differently. Doesn't stop the crusader from getting far more AoOs which can be used on trips to cancel the enemy attack altogether. Furthermore, several of the crusader's strikes (and one of his stances) heal allies within 30 feet, which is a far cry away from adjacent. Even so, I never argued that the crusader would prefer to be further away from his charge than the knight -- and if they're adjacent, the crusader does his job better than the knight (Defensive Rebuke, Shield Block, Shield Counter, Faith Unswerving, etc... all combined with Steely Resolve/Furious Counterstrike so he doesn't actually take the damage until his next turn -- see below on what that means). Like I said, that is a disingenuous argument. Nothing needs to "compensate" because Constitution automatically adds to Fortitude saves. Great, you get to add your Charisma to your Will saves (where Wisdom is likely a dump stat and either dismissible or hindering). Charisma is a secondary stat for both the Crusader and the Knight; Constitution is a primary stat. It is patently absurd to say Indomitable Soul gives Crusader an edge compared to Knight's Fortitude save because Constitution automatically affects Fortitude. You don't need a class ability to do it. That argument is so stupid I don't understand how you people keep making it. You just make a second shot at a saving throw, there is no guarantee that you make the save. Are you familiar with the Crusader? Let's look at it this way and assume the knight prioritized Constitution. He's a melee class and thus not prone to single-ability dependency, so he has more than one primary score (unlike, say, a wizard who has only one primary score that ever matters). Level 20: Good save: +12. Bad save: +6. Primary ability: We'll say 20. Secondary ability (and yes, both Wisdom and Charisma are secondary to the crusader): Let's go with 16. Dumps (Int, on both): Let's go with 10. Fortitude: Knight: 6+5 = +11. Crusader: 12+3 = +15, plus Mettle ("fortitude evasion"), assuming the crusader considers Constitution SECONDARY (note: He's more likely to take it primary, since the crusader is based around taking a beating, but I'll be generous here.) Will: Knight: 12+3 = 15. Crusader: 6+3+3 = +12, plus Mettle ("will evasion") and Zealous Surge. What does Zealous Surge add to the game? Let's hit both people with a DC 23 Will save effect that Mettle can't reduce. Knight's chance of success: 60% (8 or higher on 1d20) Crusader's chance of success: 45% on first throw (11 or higher). If he fails (55% of the time) he can attempt a second throw for another 45% chance. In other words, 0.45+0.55(0.45) = 0.6975 ~= 70%. This is on top of Mettle, which doesn't apply on this hypothetical Will save but will on others. Conclusion: "Patently absurd"? I say that claim's bunk. The Knight is likely to have plenty of armor based on its abilities. And will have more HP, on average. Even with delayed damage, Knight can take far more of a beating. d12 HD has +1 average HP per level over d10 HD. However, every single crusader has Steely Resolve, meaning less damage matters on this turn (and in fact they get deadlier because of it!), and I have yet to meet a crusader who didn't take Stone Power. The trick with Stone Power is this: If you're hit, it goes into your Steely Resolve. You then use Stone Power on your next turn, before Steely Resolve empties, which gives you temporary HP. The damage you took is applied to your HP at the end of your turn, but is removed from the temp HP first. Effectively, this is DR 10/- against *everything*, even spell damage, except that it is per round instead of per attack. Let's look at level 10 for a second and get a sense of what this means. (Recall that above I was *generous* and gave the crusader a secondary Con. In practice, they'll have *primary* Con for this very reason. Both the knight and the crusader will have 17 Con, which is the best you can get at level 10 from the standard elite array.) Since I'm assuming the crusader has Stone Power, let's give the knight a feat to improve his defenses too -- Improved Toughness. Knight: 12+9*6.5+10*3+10 = 111 HP. Crusader: 10+9*5.5+10*3 = 90 HP. Let's assume the fight goes on for 5 rounds before the character slays the challenger, and the enemy does 20 weighted damage per hit (weighted damage = probability of hit * average damage; he'll have damage potential much higher than 20 but we're accounting for their AC here. This would be a very challenging foe -- or what the knight might call a worthy adversary). Knight: He has no means of directly negating these attacks so he sits and takes it while counterattacking (no different than a fighter or warrior in this regard, although he did use a signature ability to force the monster to only fight him). At the end of the battle he's got 11 HP left, best-case scenario, and absorbs 100 HP worth of healing from the party healer to get back to full strength. Crusader: Every round, the monster deals only 10 damage to him, as the other 10 are delayed until the next round, whereupon he absorbs them through Stone Power while continuing to counter-attack. Even assuming he uses NO maneuvers at all, this puts him at 40 HP at the end of the battle, worst-case scenario. If a single one of his counter-attacks was the Stone Dragon defensive strike Stone Bones (which he probably knows), the damage is reduced even more because that strike grants him real DR. Although he couldn't combine it with Stone Power (and would thus save it to the end), if his final strike was a Devoted Spirit healing strike (say, Revitalizing Strike), he'd have MORE HP than that. Oh, and this doesn't even *begin* to account for his stance -- the best choice for him here would be Martial Spirit (unless the monster's 20 weighted damage came across multiple attacks; if that's the case Roots of the Mountain may be the better choice, but I'll go with Martial Spirit here). Putting all of these together (that is, Stone Power, Martial Spirit, Revitalizing Strike at the end, Stone Bones somewhere in between, and full attacks otherwise) the crusader finishes with 78 HP, best-case scenario (assuming average rolls on Revitalizing Strike), requiring only 12 HP from the party healer to return to full strength. And this is *nothing* like the Warrior or Fighter, but rather a totally distinct fighting style. "More HP"? Sure, 111>90. More *survivability*? Hell no. Crusaders, as I've said, Just Don't DieTM. But the Charisma bonus to Will is not going to outstrip the Constitution bonus to Fortitude for the Knight, despite you people's repeated insistence that it does. Charisma + Wisdom might give it a run for its money, though. You seem to discount that all classes get Wisdom to Will saves and that a crusader actually favors a good Charisma modifier (as it powers Devoted Spirit and Indomitable Soul, plus several class skills). On a related note, though, this is a false comparison. We should compare *fortitude to fortitude* and *will to will*, which I showed above. The knight has an inferior Fortitude save even if the crusader has secondary Con (which he will NOT), and while the knight has superior Will saves over the crusader, the crusader's Mettle ability and Zealous Surge give him a spectacularly high chance of making the save or enduring the result. (By the way, even if he only had a 14 Wisdom and Charisma, his chance of success with Zealous Surge would be 58% -- which is virtually identical to the knight's superior Will save, even though he had even less focus on secondary scores!) Thicket of Blades no more stops them than Knight's ability to force any area he threatens as difficult ground. Thicket of Blades just discourages them getting past you, it in no way, shape or form stops them. Same goes for Defensive Rebuke. Test of Mettle forces them to attack you, literally. Actually, it does. Thicket of Blades provokes AoOs, meaning you can trip them before they complete their movement to your charge (who cares if they're attacking you so long as they're not attacking your charge). Likewise, for Defensive Rebuke, if you whack them with that and they attack your charge, you get an AoO, which can be used to trip them. All of this assumes that your AoOs can't actually *kill* the monster, which is also a possibility. Test of Mettle forces them to attack you if they fail a Will save (oh, look, it's a Charisma-based Will save, too, with a Charisma-based duration -- so the Knight will need to split his focus from his primary scores to Charisma to even use this, just like the crusader!). You can actually look up average creature Will saves for every CR value here (http://www.cuberocks.net/DnD/CritterFilter/CritterFilter.php), and see if any particular knight has a good enough chance of provoking it or not. Test of Mettle, interestingly, won't stop mooks (i.e. goblins) or unintelligent creatures/creatures without languages, while Thicket of Blades will (kill them before they pass or trip them). It increases the chance of making the save, it does not guarantee it. Doesn't need to. If it makes the chance of making the save greater than the knight's, it's better than the knight's. Oh, only 16 in a secondary stat and a dump stat to be on par with the Knight. Hope he doesn't need to take hits or do damage. And I don't see you throwing around "point buy" in that argument. Neither Charisma nor Wisdom is a dump stat for Crusaders. Crusaders have Int as their only dump stat (they value Strength slightly less than knights due to their maneuvers, but they value Dexterity slightly more due to Combat Reflexes. They value Constitution above pretty much all else, Charisma powers their Devoted Spirit discipline and several class skills, and Wisdom explicitly because they have a poor Will save). It seems that you aren't doing the math to back up your statements either. I'm tired of arguing this, you are all I am attacking me you just to do it. Your My arguments are flimsy, at best, and the same methodology used to attack the Knight Crusader is dismissed in favor of touting the Crusader Knight. Good days to all of you. Sit around patting yourselves on the back for making bad arguments. Fixed. I will gladly apologize for that and remove it if you can make tesable, mathematical statements regarding the mathematics of the knight that back it up with the same fervor that you've been throwing behind appeals to emotion. Until then I'll have to work off of the objective analysis that the crusader does this job flat-out better, and the subjective opinion that even if the knight was as good as the crusader at this, the crusader would be more fun to play. Have a good day.
Marcus Majarra 11-13-07, 01:03 PM	I would offer a rebuke, but TS covered it all pretty much. In any case, I'm not dismissing the knight's ability to tank. The knight can tank well. Just not as well as the crusader. Just as a side-note, in the late game, the Just Won't Die crusader takes it up a huge notch with Immortal Fortitude kicking in. If he can get Steadfast Determination in (which would make Wis completely useless and Con that much better), he'll never die unless a single attack brings him down to at least a number of negative hit points equal to his Fort save bonus + 2. With Stone Power, even the crusader's full Steely Resolve 30 kicking in can be tanked with little effort.
Jaxgaret 11-15-07, 11:33 PM	This might not be the best tank, but a Cleric/Ordained Champion is a solid tank. You have cleric spells, 2 free feats, not to mention, depending on your cha, dozens of smites per day by like 6th level, diehard, spontaneous war domain spells(Magic Weapon, Spiritual Weapon, Magic Vestment, Divine Power, Flame strike, blade barrier, Power Word Blind, Power Word Stun, Power Word Kill), swift action spontaneous casting, channel your spells into a weapon, wis to attack and dmg in place of str, and, damage reduction up to 9/chaotic The class is made of killing evil. Or good. Depends on the god you worship. Cleric/Ordained Champion/Fist of Raziel is sweet, sweet evil destruction in a can.
Jaxgaret 11-15-07, 11:38 PM	I have yet to meet a crusader who didn't take Stone Power. Meet my Crusader (actually Fighter2/Marshal2/Crusader6). Feat selection (not necessarily in order selected): Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Force of Personality, Powerful Charge, and Leap Attack. I could see having taken Stone Power instead of Powerful Charge, but I am charging so often at full PA or power attacking for -2 BAB on any non-charge attacks (2 because of Armbands of Might) that I hardly know when I could even use Stone Power to get the DR 10/round. He's usually too busy killin' things to go defensive. Though I could see it being useful against single, powerful melee opponents.
Rumple_Fugly 11-16-07, 12:06 AM	Sorry for playing Devil's advocate, but it just seems like Cartigan just can't win =/ All his points on the knight have been shot down through Tome of Battle - when is the Knight better then the Crusader? And if the Knight is never better then the Crusader, then isn't it true that the Crusader does overshadow the Knight? That the Crusader has made the Knight class obsolete? If there is never any reason to play a Knight when you can play a Crusader instead, then it seems a power creep has indeed occurred. Now, I'm not against Tome of Battle - I really like the mechanics (though I'm not too hot on the flavor in generalized campaigns :tongue:) but I feel it does make the traditional 3.X fighter-class obsolete. Though this isn't the right thread for that, if needed I can further explain myself in PMs or some such. As for the OP's original question - Goad is alright if thats all you have access to (IE no PHB2 or ToB) but, after seeing a crusader tank cleave his way through the first couple adventures in the Shackled City, I can't deny that they are extremely effective and fun to play! :D
Kaede 11-16-07, 11:12 AM	Hail the Crusader! :fight!: :mage: :cheer: :dancin:
Cartigan 11-16-07, 11:29 AM	*cut down to points about Knight are shot down by Tome of Battle* Given the fact that martial classes in Tome of Battle far outclass any martial base classes released before it, except maybe Barbarian, of course the Crusader easily has the ability to outstrip the Knight as a tank (granted he gets the maneuvers he wants at the right time). Let's take ToB out of the equation and make a fair argument.
Marcus Majarra 11-17-07, 12:00 PM	Given the fact that martial classes in Tome of Battle far outclass any martial base classes released before it, except maybe Barbarian, of course the Crusader easily has the ability to outstrip the Knight as a tank (granted he gets the maneuvers he wants at the right time). This statement is unfounded. In certain specific combat roles, the ToB classes do outstrip other classes, and this is normal. The idea is to select your target role, and find your best options. As it is, both fighers and barbarians can outshine ToB classes in terms of damage output with little effort, and keep up the pressure in he right way every round. In any case, the knight seems like a balance act between the mounted fighter and the crusader in that it does mounted combat and tanking well, just not as well as either class. The ToB is not an unbalancing factor. It's quite balanced, actually.
tomersss 11-17-07, 05:16 PM	are we talking about the same DD? the one that gets +4 AC? how the hell can u go over 30? i use a ninja 10/thrall of demigorgon 10,8 from ninja because of 22 wis and +4 from demigorgon because of scaly flesh,that gives me +12 ac,with dex its +15,thats 25,how the hell can u get to more then 30?
Cartigan 11-17-07, 06:09 PM	It depends what you mix up. Knight 10/Dwarven Defender 10 - +1 Dodge bonus from Dex, +4 Dodge bonus from Dwarven Defender, +13 armor from +5 Full Plate, +7 from +5 Heavy Shield, +1 Shield Bonus and +1 Dodge bonus conditionally, that is 25 w/ 27 conditionally which is 29 to 31 while in Defensive Stance. And then there is damage reduction 6. I'm sure if you optimize more you can get 30 without Defensive Stance.
The_Shaman 11-17-07, 07:17 PM	Tomerss, are we allowed to use deflection, natural, natural enhancement, sacred, lucky, insight etc bonuses to armor class? Or, perhaps, defending weapons? Frankly, the only thing that surprises me is that the DD build seem to have too low AC for its levels.
Cartigan 11-17-07, 07:19 PM	Tomerss, are we allowed to use deflection, natural, natural enhancement, sacred, lucky, insight etc bonuses to armor class? Or, perhaps, defending weapons? Frankly, the only thing that surprises me is that the DD build seem to have too low AC for its levels. Well it's core...
The_Shaman 11-17-07, 07:44 PM	So are all the things I mentioned ;)
Cartigan 11-17-07, 08:11 PM	So are all the things I mentioned ;) You obviously missed the point. Dwarven Defender isn't affected by power creep therefore it would look like its AC progression is low.
The_Shaman 11-18-07, 06:39 AM	I suppose I did miss your point, and I still can't see it. DD does offer an AC-improving ability, and (most of) the bonuses I mentioned can be obtained by items in the DMG. You are imo right that there has been a "power creep" since the 3.5 DMG (although tbh some of the most powerful PrCs came in 3.0) but it's beside the point - with only core items, the Dwarven Defender build that tomersss was wondering about can have a much higher AC. I wasn't saying anything about the PrC itself, just that with proper equipment the character can get an AC a lot higher than 30 at these levels.
Cartigan 11-18-07, 08:52 AM	I suppose I did miss your point, and I still can't see it. DD does offer an AC-improving ability, and (most of) the bonuses I mentioned can be obtained by items in the DMG. You are imo right that there has been a "power creep" since the 3.5 DMG (although tbh some of the most powerful PrCs came in 3.0) but it's beside the point - with only core items, the Dwarven Defender build that tomersss was wondering about can have a much higher AC. I wasn't saying anything about the PrC itself, just that with proper equipment the character can get an AC a lot higher than 30 at these levels. But so can the Ninja class combination he was referring to, that is why I only brought up armor and shields when making the comparison.
Tempest Stormwind 11-18-07, 01:04 PM	Well it's core... So's Druid 20, which will have AC comparable to this but retain full spellcasting, stronger melee capability, a potent second warrior, and far better mobility. That last one's critical. "Oh no! The dwarven defender's after us! Quick, everybody! Walk briskly!" That's just ONE class. There are other examples (clerics can easily outdo the druid for AC, and since you're allowed one noncore book to get the knight, we're allowed one noncore book to get Divine Metamagic....) right there in core of something too ludicrously powerful for its own good, and easily stronger than *almost* anything published since then. Incidentally, the fact that the strongest, most broken things in the game are mostly in the core books kind of damages the idea of power creep, doesn't it? (I say mostly because every so often you get a PrC that takes one of those core things and makes it even more of a beast. However, the number of times a noncore supplement takes something *other* than those already-broken things and breaks them is startlingly low. You'll find far more PrCs that turn the OMFG wizard into a beast, but remarkably few that do the same thing for the ranger, for instance.)
tomersss 11-18-07, 03:31 PM	then those guys who talked about 75 AC didnt know what they were crapping about?
The_Shaman 11-18-07, 05:08 PM	Well, I think it's possible that they do. I suppose that "wildshaping" into one of the crazier forms and a liberal use of wild armor and clasps of wilding may be involved, though.
Jaxgaret 11-18-07, 11:01 PM	Incidentally, the fact that the strongest, most broken things in the game are mostly in the core books kind of damages the idea of power creep, doesn't it? (I say mostly because every so often you get a PrC that takes one of those core things and makes it even more of a beast. However, the number of times a noncore supplement takes something *other* than those already-broken things and breaks them is startlingly low. You'll find far more PrCs that turn the OMFG wizard into a beast, but remarkably few that do the same thing for the ranger, for instance.) The reason for this, of course, is that spellcasting classes are completely unbalanced compared to non-spellcasting classes, right from the beginning in core. However, I'm going to disagree with your quasi-argument against there having been power creep; there hasn't been much power creep when it comes to base spellcasting classes, sure, but that's because they're so powerful that adding an even more powerful base class (although the Archivist and Artificer do come close to that level) would be silly. There has been, however, power creep when it comes to prestige classes across the board.
Kaede 11-19-07, 12:14 PM	If we take out the ToB... I vote for the Abjurant Champion... A fighter that takes 1 lvl wizard can take that class at level 6. A 4 lvl fighter/2 lvl Battle Sorcerer can go and take the class. Its better a 3lvl fighter/ 1 lvl armored mage/ 2 lvl Wizard. You take the Abjurant champion, and then the eldricht knight... Imagine this. At level 5 of Abjurant champion you're grant of a +5 in any abjuration you make, you cast shield and get a +9 deflection to AC, then you can get a quick draw for the heavy shield +2, you can use a chainshirt +4, (you will have to put some high dex or use cat's grace on yourself) +4 dex, you can cast haste that grants another +4 to AC, Blink or Displacement to have 50% concealment. (And let's not say you can cast fly, mirror image, invisibility, spider climb, Wraith strike, etc, etc... to improve yourself in battle). At this point gives a total of 33 AC with out much effort, and considering you have a normal chainmail... and you have an 11th lvl character... You should take still spell for not having problems with the shield, BUT why whould i want a shield? It's useless, +2 to AC? HA! i better get a Mithral Breastplate that gives me a +5 to AC and +6 max dex... you have +3 more in AC and no spellfailure... If you take the Eldricht Knight up to lvl 9 (for letting him at lvl 20th character) you cast spells as a 15th lvl wizard/sorcerer and have MUCH more spells to improve yourself. The abjuration and the transmutation will be great, illusions are usefull too, and let's not say that your AC can go higher Fighter 3/Armored Mage 1/Wizard 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldricht Knight 9... OR Fighter 4/Battle Sorcerer 2/Abj Chp 5/Eld Kng 9 (15th lvl caster/ +19 Bab)... OR Battle Sorcerer 6/Fighter 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldricht Knight 8 (you are 18th lvl caster/ +18 Bab)... THATS A TANK! WITH MAGICAL POWER TO RELEASE
Tytalus 11-21-07, 11:41 PM	Fighter 3/Armored Mage 1/Wizard 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldricht Knight 9... Ugh, Fighter 3? That's an absolutely horrific level. Replacing it with a level of wizard is much better. OR Fighter 4/Battle Sorcerer 2/Abj Chp 5/Eld Kng 9 (15th lvl caster/ +19 Bab)... Too much fighter. Swapping two fighter levels with two in battle sorcerer and your caster level improves by +2, while your BAB stays the same.
Kaede 11-22-07, 04:38 AM	Ugh, Fighter 3? That's an absolutely horrific level. Replacing it with a level of wizard is much better. You don't get the +5 to BaB at level 6th to enter to the Abjurant Champion PrC... And neither at that level you get the prerequisit to enter to Eldricht Knight PrC The problem incomes with the +5 BaB prerequisit of Abjurant Champion. Perhaps you were thinkg in entering first to Eldricht Knight? It's more caster tipe but it has a prerequisist of caster of 3rd lvl spells. 6 lvl wiz/1 Armored Caster lets you go in (with a +4 BaB) get 1 lvl of Eldricht and get the Abjurant Champion... Not bad idea... finally goes: 6 wiz/1 Arm Cast/5 Abj Champ/8 Eld Knt... final BaB +17 caster lvl 18 the BaB doesn't drops too down, but the caster level improves by +3, interesting... BUT if you search more caster levels... Too much fighter. Swapping two fighter levels with two in battle sorcerer and your caster level improves by +2, while your BAB stays the same. I don't think it much better, but it's viable and it gets the +5 BaB. 1 armored caster/ 1 fighter / 4 Battle Sorcerer... 1 Fighter/1 Arm Cast/4 Btle Sorc/5 Abj Chmp/9 Eldr kng +19 BaB and 17th caster lvl... BUT some extra fighter class feats aren't a bad idea... You will be more effective in melee, and you get +4 feats in the first two options... Many really... They can be a big difference in melee... So i take that as a vote for my proposition, or not?
archerpwr 11-22-07, 11:57 PM	If we take out the ToB... I vote for the Abjurant Champion... CO approved Gish stubs: Pally 2/ Sorc 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8 Fighter 1/ Wizard 6/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch knight 7 Wizard 6/ Swiftblade 10/ Abjurant Champion 4 Just so you know.
Kaede 11-23-07, 07:10 AM	CO approved Gish stubs: Pally 2/ Sorc 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8 Fighter 1/ Wizard 6/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch knight 7 Wizard 6/ Swiftblade 10/ Abjurant Champion 4 Just so you know. Interesting... but too much multiclass for my taste...