Tome of Battle prestige classes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Tome of Battle prestige classes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
SirEnigma
04-16-08, 09:24 PM Reading through the Tome of Battle, I notice that none of the prestige classes that learn new maneuvers seem to have options listed to swap out old maneuvers for new ones (the way the base classes do at even levels 4th and higher). Is this an oversight on my part and the rule for this is listed elsewhere? Do the rules from previous martial adept classes apply to a prestige class built on them, swapping maneuvers at even levels? (This one seems a bit unlikely to me.) Or are the prestige classes unable to swap out maneuvers, which seems like a major disadvantage compared to the base classes - being able to swap low-level maneuvers for their more advanced one rather than having to learn both seems like a significant advantage.

If I'm reading this right and there's no way to swap maneuvers, do people think it would create game balance issues to allow swapping at even levels for maneuver-granting prestige classes, as long as you're building off a martial adept class rather than Martial Study and Martial Stance?
serow_#R
04-17-08, 08:19 AM You're right, the prestige classes are not able to swap out their old maneuvers for new ones. It's the price they pay for getting newer and more funky class features, on top of full initiator level progression.

Personally, I wouldn't allow that change you propose, because being able to swap your old maneuvers in exchange for new ones is the main reason for staying in the base classes. This isn't the era of Complete Arcane and Divine anymore, the new class design philosophy seems to be "nothing comes for free".
Mr_Teapot
04-17-08, 09:11 AM If I'm reading this right and there's no way to swap maneuvers, do people think it would create game balance issues to allow swapping at even levels for maneuver-granting prestige classes, as long as you're building off a martial adept class rather than Martial Study and Martial Stance?

It would basically double the number of higher level maneuvers available to the characters, so I would use this with caution. More higher level maneuvers=more raw power.

And because of the martial adept swapping system, a martial adept base class learns a new maneuver every level one way or the other (swordsages often learn two - one new and one swapped). So any time a character wanted to, they could take another level of their base class and get new/swapped maneuvers. I'd argue in some cases - like Jade Phoenix Mages - this redipping into a previous class is more valuable than the maneuver progression the class actually gives.
SirEnigma
04-17-08, 07:09 PM It would basically double the number of higher level maneuvers available to the characters, so I would use this with caution. More higher level maneuvers=more raw power.

And because of the martial adept swapping system, a martial adept base class learns a new maneuver every level one way or the other (swordsages often learn two - one new and one swapped). So any time a character wanted to, they could take another level of their base class and get new/swapped maneuvers. I'd argue in some cases - like Jade Phoenix Mages - this redipping into a previous class is more valuable than the maneuver progression the class actually gives.

Unfortunately, the class I'm looking at is the Eternal Blade, which doesn't really allow for that kind of back-dipping. The points about the full maneuver swapping making the prestiges too good is fair - particularly the eternal blade, which also has full BAB and some nifty class features - but it seems to me that taking it out entirely is a bit too far in the other direction - it cuts down high level maneuver access enough that it doesn't seem worth it to me. Maybe there's a middle ground - such as swapping maneuvers at 3rd, 6th and 9th instead of even levels? This would mean that a 5 level prestige would only get 1 maneuver swap, so the base classes will always have a couple more high level maneuvers, but still gives a chance to upgrade a bit.

Another thing I was wondering about is determining IL for learning maneuvers if you multiclasses martial adept classes previously. The section on Maneuvers in the book says:
Prestige classes work a bit differently. In most cases you add the full prestige class level to your martial adept level to determine your initiator level.
Using the Eternal Blade as an example, does this mean that if you're a Warblade 8/Crusader 2/Eternal Blade 1 choosing a maneuver, you are either IL 10 Warblade (and can add a maneuver up to level 5 to your Warblade list) or IL 7 Crusader (and add a maneuver up to level 4 to your Crusader list)? Or does it mean that you are IL 11 and can add up to a level 6 maneuver to either of your lists? I'm guessing the first, but am a bit unsure.

Thanks for all your help.
navar100
04-17-08, 07:15 PM However, one of the Eternal Blade's class abilities is the use of a floating maneuver. They can pick any extra maneuver they want for which they qualify for an encounter. It can be a different maneuver for the next encounter. This extra maneuver is readied in addition to their normal allotment. It can be recovered during the combat.
Mr_Teapot
04-18-08, 11:51 AM Another thing I was wondering about is determining IL for learning maneuvers if you multiclasses martial adept classes previously. The section on Maneuvers in the book says:

Using the Eternal Blade as an example, does this mean that if you're a Warblade 8/Crusader 2/Eternal Blade 1 choosing a maneuver, you are either IL 10 Warblade (and can add a maneuver up to level 5 to your Warblade list) or IL 7 Crusader (and add a maneuver up to level 4 to your Crusader list)? Or does it mean that you are IL 11 and can add up to a level 6 maneuver to either of your lists? I'm guessing the first, but am a bit unsure.

Thanks for all your help.

Your initiator levels are kept separate, but the PrC adds it full value to both. So the first scenario that you describe is right: IL 10 Warblade and IL 7 Crusader, and when you pick a power from Eternal Blade you decide which class you're adding it to. Note that you could this way add Devoted Spirit maneuvers to your Warblade pool, and other not normally possible things, but that otherwise the powers follow the rules for the class they are added to.
SirEnigma
04-18-08, 11:53 AM However, one of the Eternal Blade's class abilities is the use of a floating maneuver. They can pick any extra maneuver they want for which they qualify for an encounter. It can be a different maneuver for the next encounter. This extra maneuver is readied in addition to their normal allotment. It can be recovered during the combat.

Ah, right - I was reading that completely wrong, thought it just let you recover a maneuver you already knew but had used. That does balance the scales a lot. Think I've got this figured out now - thanks everyone for your help.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SirEnigma 04-16-08, 09:24 PM	Reading through the Tome of Battle, I notice that none of the prestige classes that learn new maneuvers seem to have options listed to swap out old maneuvers for new ones (the way the base classes do at even levels 4th and higher). Is this an oversight on my part and the rule for this is listed elsewhere? Do the rules from previous martial adept classes apply to a prestige class built on them, swapping maneuvers at even levels? (This one seems a bit unlikely to me.) Or are the prestige classes unable to swap out maneuvers, which seems like a major disadvantage compared to the base classes - being able to swap low-level maneuvers for their more advanced one rather than having to learn both seems like a significant advantage. If I'm reading this right and there's no way to swap maneuvers, do people think it would create game balance issues to allow swapping at even levels for maneuver-granting prestige classes, as long as you're building off a martial adept class rather than Martial Study and Martial Stance?
serow_#R 04-17-08, 08:19 AM	You're right, the prestige classes are not able to swap out their old maneuvers for new ones. It's the price they pay for getting newer and more funky class features, on top of full initiator level progression. Personally, I wouldn't allow that change you propose, because being able to swap your old maneuvers in exchange for new ones is the main reason for staying in the base classes. This isn't the era of Complete Arcane and Divine anymore, the new class design philosophy seems to be "nothing comes for free".
Mr_Teapot 04-17-08, 09:11 AM	If I'm reading this right and there's no way to swap maneuvers, do people think it would create game balance issues to allow swapping at even levels for maneuver-granting prestige classes, as long as you're building off a martial adept class rather than Martial Study and Martial Stance? It would basically double the number of higher level maneuvers available to the characters, so I would use this with caution. More higher level maneuvers=more raw power. And because of the martial adept swapping system, a martial adept base class learns a new maneuver every level one way or the other (swordsages often learn two - one new and one swapped). So any time a character wanted to, they could take another level of their base class and get new/swapped maneuvers. I'd argue in some cases - like Jade Phoenix Mages - this redipping into a previous class is more valuable than the maneuver progression the class actually gives.
SirEnigma 04-17-08, 07:09 PM	It would basically double the number of higher level maneuvers available to the characters, so I would use this with caution. More higher level maneuvers=more raw power. And because of the martial adept swapping system, a martial adept base class learns a new maneuver every level one way or the other (swordsages often learn two - one new and one swapped). So any time a character wanted to, they could take another level of their base class and get new/swapped maneuvers. I'd argue in some cases - like Jade Phoenix Mages - this redipping into a previous class is more valuable than the maneuver progression the class actually gives. Unfortunately, the class I'm looking at is the Eternal Blade, which doesn't really allow for that kind of back-dipping. The points about the full maneuver swapping making the prestiges too good is fair - particularly the eternal blade, which also has full BAB and some nifty class features - but it seems to me that taking it out entirely is a bit too far in the other direction - it cuts down high level maneuver access enough that it doesn't seem worth it to me. Maybe there's a middle ground - such as swapping maneuvers at 3rd, 6th and 9th instead of even levels? This would mean that a 5 level prestige would only get 1 maneuver swap, so the base classes will always have a couple more high level maneuvers, but still gives a chance to upgrade a bit. Another thing I was wondering about is determining IL for learning maneuvers if you multiclasses martial adept classes previously. The section on Maneuvers in the book says: Prestige classes work a bit differently. In most cases you add the full prestige class level to your martial adept level to determine your initiator level. Using the Eternal Blade as an example, does this mean that if you're a Warblade 8/Crusader 2/Eternal Blade 1 choosing a maneuver, you are either IL 10 Warblade (and can add a maneuver up to level 5 to your Warblade list) or IL 7 Crusader (and add a maneuver up to level 4 to your Crusader list)? Or does it mean that you are IL 11 and can add up to a level 6 maneuver to either of your lists? I'm guessing the first, but am a bit unsure. Thanks for all your help.
navar100 04-17-08, 07:15 PM	However, one of the Eternal Blade's class abilities is the use of a floating maneuver. They can pick any extra maneuver they want for which they qualify for an encounter. It can be a different maneuver for the next encounter. This extra maneuver is readied in addition to their normal allotment. It can be recovered during the combat.
Mr_Teapot 04-18-08, 11:51 AM	Another thing I was wondering about is determining IL for learning maneuvers if you multiclasses martial adept classes previously. The section on Maneuvers in the book says: Using the Eternal Blade as an example, does this mean that if you're a Warblade 8/Crusader 2/Eternal Blade 1 choosing a maneuver, you are either IL 10 Warblade (and can add a maneuver up to level 5 to your Warblade list) or IL 7 Crusader (and add a maneuver up to level 4 to your Crusader list)? Or does it mean that you are IL 11 and can add up to a level 6 maneuver to either of your lists? I'm guessing the first, but am a bit unsure. Thanks for all your help. Your initiator levels are kept separate, but the PrC adds it full value to both. So the first scenario that you describe is right: IL 10 Warblade and IL 7 Crusader, and when you pick a power from Eternal Blade you decide which class you're adding it to. Note that you could this way add Devoted Spirit maneuvers to your Warblade pool, and other not normally possible things, but that otherwise the powers follow the rules for the class they are added to.
SirEnigma 04-18-08, 11:53 AM	However, one of the Eternal Blade's class abilities is the use of a floating maneuver. They can pick any extra maneuver they want for which they qualify for an encounter. It can be a different maneuver for the next encounter. This extra maneuver is readied in addition to their normal allotment. It can be recovered during the combat. Ah, right - I was reading that completely wrong, thought it just let you recover a maneuver you already knew but had used. That does balance the scales a lot. Think I've got this figured out now - thanks everyone for your help.