Tweaking Core Prestidge Classess: Is it needed? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Tweaking Core Prestidge Classess: Is it needed? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Prince_of_Parkness
12-09-07, 12:56 PM Ive heard some complaints about some of the PrC in DMG. 2 questions for each one: How well does my optional variation solve the "problem"? and is it needed?

Arcane archer: general complaints are that it doent have enough spell casting abilities to allow it to make use of its class features, but other have pointed out that its primarily an archer with some magicals abilties, not a 5/5 mixture of the two. But anyway:
Trait: Archery of the Mind
Preq.: Arcane archer 1st level
Benefit: You gain 6/10 caster level progression
Drawback: Your BAB progression for this PrC drops to 3/4

Dragon Disciple: General problem seems to be that they are melee class but only have 3/4 BAB progression.
Trait: Dragon Power
Benefit: you gain full BAB progression for this PrC
Drawback: You loose the bonus spells this prestige class grants

Dwarven Defender: General problem seems to be that their key class feature can be defeated with a 5ft step. Kinda lame.
Only thing I can think of is to allow them a 5ft step in defensive stance and mobil defense allows them to take a move equivialnt action to move 20ft.

Mystic Theurge: Good versatility but the lack of spe3cialization makes this redendant. Could drop the entry requirments to ability to cast 1st level arcane and devine spells.

Red Wizard: Generally hated because its bad enough to specialize once yet alone again, though I've heard that Specialist mage5/ Red Wizard10/ arch mage5 is one of the most powerful Core builds so maybe its fine as it is. Could add another +1 DC to his specialized spell school at level 3 and grows to +2 at level 7.

Shadowdancer: Seems cool but pretty underpowered. Make Shadow Jump start at 10ft and give them sneak attack progression at level 2, 5 and 8?

Great/neccissary but needs more thought/uneccissary?
Phelf_Der_Zemit
12-09-07, 01:29 PM Red wizard tiz not core in .5 i dont think.
Jaxgaret
12-09-07, 03:56 PM Ive heard some complaints about some of the PrC in DMG. 2 questions for each one: How well does my optional variation solve the "problem"? and is it needed?

Okay, let's take a look. This is an admirable exercise, btw. Most will agree that power creep has overtaken many of the PrCs in the DMG.

Arcane archer: general complaints are that it doent have enough spell casting abilities to allow it to make use of its class features, but other have pointed out that its primarily an archer with some magicals abilties, not a 5/5 mixture of the two. But anyway:
Trait: Archery of the Mind
Preq.: Arcane archer 1st level
Benefit: You gain 4/6 caster level progression
Drawback: Your BAB progression for this PrC drops to 3/4

Very good idea to give them more spellcasting; as it is, the AA is best used as a 2 level dip for Imbue Arrow, which is of course ludicrous. But what is "4/6 caster level progression"?

Dragon Disciple: General problem seems to be that they are melee class but only have 3/4 BAB progression.
Trait: Dragon Power
Benefit: you gain full BAB progression for this PrC
Drawback: You loose your breath weapon class feature

I would change the drawback to "You gain no bonus spells". The DD is a combat class, plain and simple, and the bonus low level spells are not too useful anyway.

Mystic Theurge: Good versatility but the lack of spe3cialization makes this redendant. Could drop the entry requirments to ability to cast 1st level arcane and devine spells.

That would be overpowered, I think. You would have to include some other kind of power reduction to make it balanced.

Red Wizard: Generally hated because its bad enough to specialize once yet alone again, though I've heard that Specialist mage5/ Red Wizard10/ arch mage5 is one of the most powerful Core builds so maybe its fine as it is. Could add another +1 DC to his specialized spell school at level 3 and grows to +2 at level 7.

Not in the DMG in 3.5.

Great/neccissary but needs more thought/uneccissary?

Good ideas. Take some more time thinking about how you want to implement these changes.
Prince_of_Parkness
12-09-07, 04:24 PM Okay, let's take a look. This is an admirable exercise, btw. Most will agree that power creep has overtaken many of the PrCs in the DMG..

Very good idea to give them more spellcasting; as it is, the AA is best used as a 2 level dip for Imbue Arrow, which is of course ludicrous. But what is "4/6 caster level progression"?.

Sorry, ment to be 4/10. i was thinking maybe 6/10 but i dont want it over powered.

I would change the drawback to "You gain no bonus spells". The DD is a combat class, plain and simple, and the bonus low level spells are not too useful anyway..

Quite a good Idea, ill do that

That would be overpowered, I think. You would have to include some other kind of power reduction to make it balanced..

They still need to be 3th level to meet the requirments.

Not in the DMG in 3.5..

I really dont get this because i have a DMG, clearly marked as 3.5-first printed 2003 july according to the first page-that has that prestige class in it. It says its from FR, but its still there. I bought my copy in hungery, but its in english so it should be the same

Good ideas. Take some more time thinking about how you want to implement these changes.

Thanks, will do.
Jaxgaret
12-09-07, 05:38 PM Sorry, ment to be 4/10. i was thinking maybe 6/10 but i dont want it over powered.

6/10 wouldn't be overpowered.

Quite a good Idea, ill do that

Thanks :)

They still need to be 3th level to meet the requirments.

True, but a Wizard2/Cleric1 going into MT might be a bit overpowered.

I really dont get this because i have a DMG, clearly marked as 3.5-first printed 2003 july according to the first page-that has that prestige class in it. It says its from FR, but its still there. I bought my copy in hungery, but its in english so it should be the same

Huh. Weird. Must have been one of the first 3.5 DMGs printed.

Thanks, will do.

You're welcome.
Prince_of_Parkness
12-09-07, 06:09 PM True, but a Wizard2/Cleric1 going into MT might be a bit overpowered.

Could raise knowledge level to 7, the you'd need to be 2/2 or 1/3 to get in, really depends on what level you think they should be enterable at. Or should I add extra class feautures, or make the levels stack for the purpose of turning undead and familiar progression (for whats its worth)
StevenO
12-09-07, 07:31 PM If I were to "update" the DMG prestige classes (which I think are generally fine) these are the changes I'd make:

Arcane Archer: Change "Enhance Arrow" bonus to a straight attack/damage bonus that stacks witha bows enhancements. Add at 1st level "Non-magical arrows fired by the AA overcome DR/magic" at 11th level "Non-magical arrows overcome DR/epic. Edit Death Arrow save to DC 10+class level+Dex mod (the Dex mod represent arrow placement). Imbue Arrow is the ONLY AA feature that cares about spellcasting and you can either dip two level in for it or forget about it and be fine.

Arcane Trickster: Edit Prereqs to allow Lesser Invocation to stand in place of 3rd level spell. This also means making a Least Invocation to immitate Mage Hand but the idea is to make the AT Warlock friendly.

Dragon Disciple: No changes really needed but if I were making one I would make the Breath weapon usuable once every 1d4+1 rounds. BAB progression isn't a problem because you should make up the lost attack with the class's higher STR score.

Dwarven Defender: Allow IMPROVED Toughness as a Toughness in the prereqs. Also steal the Knight's Bulwark of Defense at 1st level; this makes opponents treat areas you threaten as difficult terrain which limits their mobility as well.

Mystic Theurge: Increase HD to 1d6 which averages normal arcane and divine caster HD.

Shadow Dancer: When you gain Evasion (2nd level) you gain Improved Evasion instead if you already have evasion from another class.

I think the Archamage, Assassin, Blackguard, Eldritch Knight, and Loremaster are fine as they are and am not familiar enough with the others to have a practiced opinion although I think they're probably fine as well.
The_Shaman
12-10-07, 06:25 AM About Dragon Disciple: even with BAB, you could just give it some negligible casting progression (i.e. 3/10) and be done with it. If it remains at medium BAB, a spellcasting progression is warranted. Green Star Adept gets 5/10 for spells and 10/10 for casting level, as well as a whole lot of other stuff - and is considered a weak PrC. If the DD got, say, 5/10 progression it could be much more tolerable.
Grod_The_Giant
12-10-07, 03:30 PM I was actually just looking at the Hierophant, and I noticed something. The abilities are the same as the Archmage (hell, some are exactly the same), but it has no casting progression. Therefore, I add:

Hierophant: the top-of-the-line class for divine casters, but no spellcasting.
Trait: Deity's Favor
Benefit: you gain full spellcasting progression for this PrC
Drawback: You must permanently eliminate spell slots in exchange for your abilities.
Spell Slots Sacrificed:

Blast Infidel- 8th level
Divine Reach- 7th level [from arcane reach]
Faith Healing- 6th level
Gift of the Divine- 8th level
Mastery of Energy- 5th level
Power of Nature- 9th level
Spell Power- 5th level [from spell power]
Spell-like Ability- 5th level [from spell-like ability]
(Metamagic Feat)- no slot sacrifice required.
Prince_of_Parkness
12-11-07, 11:10 AM I was actually just looking at the Hierophant, and I noticed something. The abilities are the same as the Archmage (hell, some are exactly the same), but it has no casting progression. Therefore, I add:

Hierophant: the top-of-the-line class for divine casters, but no spellcasting.
Trait: Deity's Favor
Benefit: you gain full spellcasting progression for this PrC
Drawback: You must permanently eliminate spell slots in exchange for your abilities.
Spell Slots Sacrificed:

Blast Infidel- 8th level
Divine Reach- 7th level [from arcane reach]
Faith Healing- 6th level
Gift of the Divine- 8th level
Mastery of Energy- 5th level
Power of Nature- 9th level
Spell Power- 5th level [from spell power]
Spell-like Ability- 5th level [from spell-like ability]
(Metamagic Feat)- no slot sacrifice required.

Thats quite a good idea considering that no one has any problem with the archmage
Eerongal
12-11-07, 11:33 AM In reference to the red wizard, both of the DMGs that i currently have (both arent mine, one is my friends) do in fact contain the red wizard. Maybe they removed it from later printings of the DMG? I know mine are right from the get go of 3.5. I know it's not in the SRD, but i always assumed that was for the same reason as mind flayer and beholders being removed, non OGL material.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Prince_of_Parkness 12-09-07, 12:56 PM	Ive heard some complaints about some of the PrC in DMG. 2 questions for each one: How well does my optional variation solve the "problem"? and is it needed? Arcane archer: general complaints are that it doent have enough spell casting abilities to allow it to make use of its class features, but other have pointed out that its primarily an archer with some magicals abilties, not a 5/5 mixture of the two. But anyway: Trait: Archery of the Mind Preq.: Arcane archer 1st level Benefit: You gain 6/10 caster level progression Drawback: Your BAB progression for this PrC drops to 3/4 Dragon Disciple: General problem seems to be that they are melee class but only have 3/4 BAB progression. Trait: Dragon Power Benefit: you gain full BAB progression for this PrC Drawback: You loose the bonus spells this prestige class grants Dwarven Defender: General problem seems to be that their key class feature can be defeated with a 5ft step. Kinda lame. Only thing I can think of is to allow them a 5ft step in defensive stance and mobil defense allows them to take a move equivialnt action to move 20ft. Mystic Theurge: Good versatility but the lack of spe3cialization makes this redendant. Could drop the entry requirments to ability to cast 1st level arcane and devine spells. Red Wizard: Generally hated because its bad enough to specialize once yet alone again, though I've heard that Specialist mage5/ Red Wizard10/ arch mage5 is one of the most powerful Core builds so maybe its fine as it is. Could add another +1 DC to his specialized spell school at level 3 and grows to +2 at level 7. Shadowdancer: Seems cool but pretty underpowered. Make Shadow Jump start at 10ft and give them sneak attack progression at level 2, 5 and 8? Great/neccissary but needs more thought/uneccissary?
Phelf_Der_Zemit 12-09-07, 01:29 PM	Red wizard tiz not core in .5 i dont think.
Jaxgaret 12-09-07, 03:56 PM	Ive heard some complaints about some of the PrC in DMG. 2 questions for each one: How well does my optional variation solve the "problem"? and is it needed? Okay, let's take a look. This is an admirable exercise, btw. Most will agree that power creep has overtaken many of the PrCs in the DMG. Arcane archer: general complaints are that it doent have enough spell casting abilities to allow it to make use of its class features, but other have pointed out that its primarily an archer with some magicals abilties, not a 5/5 mixture of the two. But anyway: Trait: Archery of the Mind Preq.: Arcane archer 1st level Benefit: You gain 4/6 caster level progression Drawback: Your BAB progression for this PrC drops to 3/4 Very good idea to give them more spellcasting; as it is, the AA is best used as a 2 level dip for Imbue Arrow, which is of course ludicrous. But what is "4/6 caster level progression"? Dragon Disciple: General problem seems to be that they are melee class but only have 3/4 BAB progression. Trait: Dragon Power Benefit: you gain full BAB progression for this PrC Drawback: You loose your breath weapon class feature I would change the drawback to "You gain no bonus spells". The DD is a combat class, plain and simple, and the bonus low level spells are not too useful anyway. Mystic Theurge: Good versatility but the lack of spe3cialization makes this redendant. Could drop the entry requirments to ability to cast 1st level arcane and devine spells. That would be overpowered, I think. You would have to include some other kind of power reduction to make it balanced. Red Wizard: Generally hated because its bad enough to specialize once yet alone again, though I've heard that Specialist mage5/ Red Wizard10/ arch mage5 is one of the most powerful Core builds so maybe its fine as it is. Could add another +1 DC to his specialized spell school at level 3 and grows to +2 at level 7. Not in the DMG in 3.5. Great/neccissary but needs more thought/uneccissary? Good ideas. Take some more time thinking about how you want to implement these changes.
Prince_of_Parkness 12-09-07, 04:24 PM	Okay, let's take a look. This is an admirable exercise, btw. Most will agree that power creep has overtaken many of the PrCs in the DMG.. Very good idea to give them more spellcasting; as it is, the AA is best used as a 2 level dip for Imbue Arrow, which is of course ludicrous. But what is "4/6 caster level progression"?. Sorry, ment to be 4/10. i was thinking maybe 6/10 but i dont want it over powered. I would change the drawback to "You gain no bonus spells". The DD is a combat class, plain and simple, and the bonus low level spells are not too useful anyway.. Quite a good Idea, ill do that That would be overpowered, I think. You would have to include some other kind of power reduction to make it balanced.. They still need to be 3th level to meet the requirments. Not in the DMG in 3.5.. I really dont get this because i have a DMG, clearly marked as 3.5-first printed 2003 july according to the first page-that has that prestige class in it. It says its from FR, but its still there. I bought my copy in hungery, but its in english so it should be the same Good ideas. Take some more time thinking about how you want to implement these changes. Thanks, will do.
Jaxgaret 12-09-07, 05:38 PM	Sorry, ment to be 4/10. i was thinking maybe 6/10 but i dont want it over powered. 6/10 wouldn't be overpowered. Quite a good Idea, ill do that Thanks :) They still need to be 3th level to meet the requirments. True, but a Wizard2/Cleric1 going into MT might be a bit overpowered. I really dont get this because i have a DMG, clearly marked as 3.5-first printed 2003 july according to the first page-that has that prestige class in it. It says its from FR, but its still there. I bought my copy in hungery, but its in english so it should be the same Huh. Weird. Must have been one of the first 3.5 DMGs printed. Thanks, will do. You're welcome.
Prince_of_Parkness 12-09-07, 06:09 PM	True, but a Wizard2/Cleric1 going into MT might be a bit overpowered. Could raise knowledge level to 7, the you'd need to be 2/2 or 1/3 to get in, really depends on what level you think they should be enterable at. Or should I add extra class feautures, or make the levels stack for the purpose of turning undead and familiar progression (for whats its worth)
StevenO 12-09-07, 07:31 PM	If I were to "update" the DMG prestige classes (which I think are generally fine) these are the changes I'd make: Arcane Archer: Change "Enhance Arrow" bonus to a straight attack/damage bonus that stacks witha bows enhancements. Add at 1st level "Non-magical arrows fired by the AA overcome DR/magic" at 11th level "Non-magical arrows overcome DR/epic. Edit Death Arrow save to DC 10+class level+Dex mod (the Dex mod represent arrow placement). Imbue Arrow is the ONLY AA feature that cares about spellcasting and you can either dip two level in for it or forget about it and be fine. Arcane Trickster: Edit Prereqs to allow Lesser Invocation to stand in place of 3rd level spell. This also means making a Least Invocation to immitate Mage Hand but the idea is to make the AT Warlock friendly. Dragon Disciple: No changes really needed but if I were making one I would make the Breath weapon usuable once every 1d4+1 rounds. BAB progression isn't a problem because you should make up the lost attack with the class's higher STR score. Dwarven Defender: Allow IMPROVED Toughness as a Toughness in the prereqs. Also steal the Knight's Bulwark of Defense at 1st level; this makes opponents treat areas you threaten as difficult terrain which limits their mobility as well. Mystic Theurge: Increase HD to 1d6 which averages normal arcane and divine caster HD. Shadow Dancer: When you gain Evasion (2nd level) you gain Improved Evasion instead if you already have evasion from another class. I think the Archamage, Assassin, Blackguard, Eldritch Knight, and Loremaster are fine as they are and am not familiar enough with the others to have a practiced opinion although I think they're probably fine as well.
The_Shaman 12-10-07, 06:25 AM	About Dragon Disciple: even with BAB, you could just give it some negligible casting progression (i.e. 3/10) and be done with it. If it remains at medium BAB, a spellcasting progression is warranted. Green Star Adept gets 5/10 for spells and 10/10 for casting level, as well as a whole lot of other stuff - and is considered a weak PrC. If the DD got, say, 5/10 progression it could be much more tolerable.
Grod_The_Giant 12-10-07, 03:30 PM	I was actually just looking at the Hierophant, and I noticed something. The abilities are the same as the Archmage (hell, some are exactly the same), but it has no casting progression. Therefore, I add: Hierophant: the top-of-the-line class for divine casters, but no spellcasting. Trait: Deity's Favor Benefit: you gain full spellcasting progression for this PrC Drawback: You must permanently eliminate spell slots in exchange for your abilities. Spell Slots Sacrificed: Blast Infidel- 8th level Divine Reach- 7th level [from arcane reach] Faith Healing- 6th level Gift of the Divine- 8th level Mastery of Energy- 5th level Power of Nature- 9th level Spell Power- 5th level [from spell power] Spell-like Ability- 5th level [from spell-like ability] (Metamagic Feat)- no slot sacrifice required.
Prince_of_Parkness 12-11-07, 11:10 AM	I was actually just looking at the Hierophant, and I noticed something. The abilities are the same as the Archmage (hell, some are exactly the same), but it has no casting progression. Therefore, I add: Hierophant: the top-of-the-line class for divine casters, but no spellcasting. Trait: Deity's Favor Benefit: you gain full spellcasting progression for this PrC Drawback: You must permanently eliminate spell slots in exchange for your abilities. Spell Slots Sacrificed: Blast Infidel- 8th level Divine Reach- 7th level [from arcane reach] Faith Healing- 6th level Gift of the Divine- 8th level Mastery of Energy- 5th level Power of Nature- 9th level Spell Power- 5th level [from spell power] Spell-like Ability- 5th level [from spell-like ability] (Metamagic Feat)- no slot sacrifice required. Thats quite a good idea considering that no one has any problem with the archmage
Eerongal 12-11-07, 11:33 AM	In reference to the red wizard, both of the DMGs that i currently have (both arent mine, one is my friends) do in fact contain the red wizard. Maybe they removed it from later printings of the DMG? I know mine are right from the get go of 3.5. I know it's not in the SRD, but i always assumed that was for the same reason as mind flayer and beholders being removed, non OGL material.