Post/Author/DateTime	Post
deviknyte 09-18-07, 09:19 AM	Is there a psionic version of ultimate magus? Class that requires 2 different psionic list? Divine?
Yosho 09-18-07, 09:31 PM	No there is nothing by wotc but its not that hard to do for divine. I guess you could also do it for psi/wild or psi/ardent just as easly though.
goawayugh 09-19-07, 08:55 AM	Psychic Theurge (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b)
deviknyte 09-19-07, 01:41 PM	Alright thanks. I was just wondering if WoTC or Dragon had a psionics/psionics or a divine/divine. erudite/ardent would be cool as would cleric/archivist. Oh well. I'm off to home brew.
Mr_Teapot 09-19-07, 03:32 PM	Alright thanks. I was just wondering if WoTC or Dragon had a psionics/psionics or a divine/divine. erudite/ardent would be cool as would cleric/archivist. Oh well. I'm off to home brew. A psionics/psionics hybrid would require more careful attention from the designers, since when you mutliclass two psionic classes you share the same power point reserve. So advancing Psion and Wilder would give you a ridiculous number of PPs. This would need more to balance it than a sorcerer/wizard multiclass PrC.
RobbyPants 09-19-07, 05:09 PM	Alright thanks. I was just wondering if WoTC or Dragon had a psionics/psionics or a divine/divine. erudite/ardent would be cool as would cleric/archivist. Oh well. I'm off to home brew. Cleric/Archivist would need a different theme altogether, because they're both prepared casters. Cleric/Favored Soul fits more closely to the prepared/spontaneous theme of the Ultimate Magus. For that, it might be as simple as to simply replace the word "arcane" in UM with "divine" to create a new PrC. I'd have to check all the special abilties in the book when I get home.
Sagetim 09-21-07, 12:57 AM	A psionics/psionics hybrid would require more careful attention from the designers, since when you mutliclass two psionic classes you share the same power point reserve. So advancing Psion and Wilder would give you a ridiculous number of PPs. This would need more to balance it than a sorcerer/wizard multiclass PrC. Actually, I don't think it would be too hard. You just don't give it 'full progression'. Wilder/Ardent for this example: prc will be called theruge for the example. example: at levels 1, 5, and 9 you have special abilities instead of powers gained and what not. Perhaps the follwing: level 1 SA: You have gained insight as to how to combine the powers of your mind in new and dazzling ways. When you use a wild surge, subtract your theruge level from your precentage chance to 'spin out' to a minimum of 5%. level 5 SA: Your insight into the powers of your mind have awakened new understanding into the secrets of the universe. Gain one psionic mantle of your choice. level 9 SA: Psychic power has infused your being. Gain the timeless body trait (detailed under the monk powers). not sure if it would give them the 20/+1 dr though.
JoshuaZ 09-21-07, 09:50 AM	A psionics/psionics hybrid would require more careful attention from the designers, since when you mutliclass two psionic classes you share the same power point reserve. So advancing Psion and Wilder would give you a ridiculous number of PPs. This would need more to balance it than a sorcerer/wizard multiclass PrC. It wouldn't need that much more I think. For example, one Mystic Theurge fix I've seen (since many people think the MT is underpowered) is to allow the Theurge to use all non-domain non-bonus slots to be used for either the divine or arcane class, and that doesn't break things terribly. If the class lost 2 or 3 levels of manifester progression even with the insanely high number of pp the lower manifester level would end up handling a lot of the problem. Remember that at higher levels, number of actions matters much more than total number of resources.
Mr_Teapot 09-21-07, 04:04 PM	If the class lost 2 or 3 levels of manifester progression even with the insanely high number of pp the lower manifester level would end up handling a lot of the problem. No, in that case one side would nearly always be taken as Ardent, and you'd take the Practised Manifester feat, meaning you still get 9th level powerst 17th level , no loss of ML and increased PPs over a straight psion or ardent.
Sagetim 09-21-07, 08:37 PM	No, in that case one side would nearly always be taken as Ardent, and you'd take the Practised Manifester feat, meaning you still get 9th level powerst 17th level , no loss of ML and increased PPs over a straight psion or ardent. are you smoking something? the practiced manifester (as well as practiced spellcaster) feats state specifically that YOU DO NOT gain higher level spells or powers from the feat. It WOULD let you spend more PP's to augment your powers, but that's it. You wouldn't get 9th level powers before epic.
deviknyte 09-22-07, 07:53 AM	Skills: Knowledge (Psionics) 4 ranks, Psicraft 8 ranks. Feats: Any metapsionic feat. Spellcasting: Able to manifest 1st-level psionic powers out side of the Psion class, able to manifest 2nd-level psionic powers from the psion class. I was thinking that the Ultimate Cerebrus would just mirror UM. Except it wouldn't get augment casting. I would instead get an ability that let you use your better manifester level for powers on your other list 3+ 1/2 class level times per day with a minor power point cost? 2 points per use that don't count against the max points you can spend in the power. Expanded spell knowledge would instead be expanded discipline knowledge. Learn a power from a banned discipline to one of your manifester classes? By the way. The practiced caster trick is that +1 lower-level exsisting arcane casting class says, "as if you had also gained a level in your arcane spellcasting class with the lowest caster level." Practiced Caster keeps the class you don't want to actually get spells in at a higher caster level so you don't have to take it. And that fact that I would end up with 11ML and 11ML at 15th level. If you make them even 14ML and 13ML at 20th is balanced enough for the power points. 7th level spells at 9th level kinda sucks.
Mr_Teapot 09-22-07, 08:10 AM	are you smoking something? the practiced manifester (as well as practiced spellcaster) feats state specifically that YOU DO NOT gain higher level spells or powers from the feat. It WOULD let you spend more PP's to augment your powers, but that's it. You wouldn't get 9th level powers before epic. Ardents acquire their powers based off their manifester level, not their class level. So if you take Practised Manifester with an Ardent, you can multiclass for a few levels and still acquire your powers at the same level a straight Ardent would acquire them. All you'd be losing are power points and powers known. And since the proposed "Ultimate Psion" would give you a lot more powers known and PPs, an Ardent/Psion would wind up ahead of a straight Ardent or Psion.
deviknyte 09-22-07, 08:17 AM	Didn't know that about ardents. Thought they had a max level know chart. Makes the practiced manifester trick a lot sweeter. Rethinking allow this now, hee hee.
Sagetim 09-23-07, 05:25 PM	Ardents acquire their powers based off their manifester level, not their class level. So if you take Practised Manifester with an Ardent, you can multiclass for a few levels and still acquire your powers at the same level a straight Ardent would acquire them. All you'd be losing are power points and powers known. And since the proposed "Ultimate Psion" would give you a lot more powers known and PPs, an Ardent/Psion would wind up ahead of a straight Ardent or Psion. you're still making stuff up. They gain powers based on a chart right next to power points per day. It's not based on manifester level, it's based on ardent level. Meaning if you were a level 1 ardent, 4 fighter with practiced manifester, and you took one level of ardent, you could learn powers costing up to...2 power points! woooooooooowwwwww! you'd be able to manifest at level 6, but you couldn't have any level 2 or 3 powers to use that with. You still wouldn't get level 9 powers from the ardent.
deviknyte 09-23-07, 09:36 PM	There is no maximum power level known column on the ardent class. The class does say under powers know, "She must be able to manifest the new power at the level which she learns it, however. For example an ardent who attains 5th level can learn any power from one of her mantles that cost 5 power points or less to manifest; she cannot learn a power from a mantle that cost more than 5 power points to manifest until she attains a level capable of manifesting a power with that cost." This means one of a few things. A, that the power you learn is based off your manifester level. B, that you can't prestige class out of ardent because when you gain +1 manifester your still not gaining levels in ardent and thus wouldn't be able to pick up higher level powers. C, there needs to be an errata. Or D, there is an errata. I haven't checked for one yet.
Sagetim 09-24-07, 01:36 AM	There is no maximum power level known column on the ardent class. The class does say under powers know, "She must be able to manifest the new power at the level which she learns it, however. For example an ardent who attains 5th level can learn any power from one of her mantles that cost 5 power points or less to manifest; she cannot learn a power from a mantle that cost more than 5 power points to manifest until she attains a level capable of manifesting a power with that cost." This means one of a few things. A, that the power you learn is based off your manifester level. B, that you can't prestige class out of ardent because when you gain +1 manifester your still not gaining levels in ardent and thus wouldn't be able to pick up higher level powers. C, there needs to be an errata. Or D, there is an errata. I haven't checked for one yet. okay...let me try and put this simply: when you prc with ardent, you gain more pp's per day. Your manifester level goes up. It functions as if you had taken a level in ardent. when you use that feat, it gives you one thing: manifest level boost. No extra power points, no pseudo Ardent levels.
Mr_Teapot 09-24-07, 09:32 AM	when you use that feat, it gives you one thing: manifest level boost. No extra power points, no pseudo Ardent levels. Yeah, no one is claiming otherwise on what the feat does. I'm talking about when you later go back and take another ardent level, or PrC that advances ardent manifesting. When you later take another level of ardent, your manifester level is higher than your ardent level because of Practised Manifester. So the maximum number of PPs you can spend on a power is higher than your ardent level (it's equal to you manifester level). When you take another level of ardent, you can pick any power you can afford to spend points on. So your maximum power level known doesn't need to lag behind if you multiclass out of ardent for less than four levels (your PPs and number of powers known will, as I said before). Example: Jim the ardent has three ardent levels. He knows a couple powers up to 3rd level and has X PPs (I'm away from books at the moment, so can give exact details). His manifester level is 3. He then multiclasses into Fighter for some bonus feats (or whatever). At 5th level, he's a fighter 2/ardent 3 who has the same ML of 3, the same X pps and the same couple powers known up to 3rd level. At 6th level, he picks up another Fighter level and the Practised Manifester feat. His PPs and powers known don't increase any, but his manifester level does (up to 6, his character level). This helps in a handful of ways, most notably increasing the cap on how many PPs Jim can spend on one power. At 7th level, Jim decides to take another level of ardent. His ML increases to 7, and his PPs and number of powers known are equal to those of a 4th level ardent. But the powers he can pick are decided based on his Manifester Level, so he can choose up to 4th level powers, because he is allowed to spend 7 PPs on a single use of a power. So despite being a 4th level ardent, his maximum power level is 4th, the same as a straight ardent would get (his PPs and Powers known are much worse, though). That's one of the reasons I'm saying the Ultimate Psion would need to look a lot different from the Ultimate Magus. If you only lose a couple manifesting levels from your primary manifester class, and receive 11 levels of your secondary one (like Ultimate Magus) then an ardent/psion might be able to get more than he loses out of it.
deviknyte 09-28-07, 09:30 PM	It's gotta work one way or the other. Either ardent is based on manifester level to learn powers. Or it's based on class level. Which is it?
deviknyte 09-29-07, 08:20 AM	Nevermind. I was really tired when I was reading this. I haven't gotten any sleep. Girlfriend gone. No pity party please. If you wanna feel sorry for me power game.