Un-Psioning the Sangehirn? Balanced? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Un-Psioning the Sangehirn? Balanced? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Flay Crimsonwind
05-03-07, 12:19 AM Alrighty, so I found this class just today, The Sangehirn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625c), and knew that my DM would not grant me use of this class as he doesn't allow psionics yet, as none of us have all the material for him to pick through. So I wanted to see if I could change the class non-psionic, and I came up with an interesting idea. Remove the manifester levels to get better HD and BaB, and remove the caster list to give some other abilities and you'd have an interesting boxer-type class, no? I need a name for it; until then my reworking is keeping the name. Here's what I've modified:

Sangehirns have learned that the best way to stay alive in a dangerous world is to know how to heal. They focus their minds on the body and learn how to keep it fit. They see the body as a simple pattern of blood flow, muscle, and bone -- easily repaired. As they advance in levels, this belief manifests itself in their own bodies, causing incredible healing capabilities, invoked by nothing other than their physical will. They, or rather, their bodies, have learned how to heal themselves and further resist damage. As they grow, their natural defenses become ridiculous.

With a new ease on life, many of these chaotic beings willing to morph their own body through will and harsh experiences grow fond of combat, as they feel less threatened thanks to their newfound powers. Whilst not evil, they hold less regard for the laws of the universe, as their body is a physical testament to how one can challenge the universe's laws.

Hit Die: d10

Requirements
To qualify as a sangehirn, a character must meet the following criteria.
Alignment: Chaotic any
Skill: heal 4 ranks, intimidate 4 ranks
Feats: Toughness, Great Fortitude
Psionics: Base Attack +8

Healing Focus (Su) = OUT
No idea... Need one. Combat Ability? How about slow bonus armor gain, like the monk? = IN

Healing Touch (Su) = OUT
No idea... actually, in keeping with the developing body of the class, how about a renamed skill like the Tattoed Monk's Crane Tattoo, granting first disease protection, then poison, then aging stops, just like the monk abilities, but separated by levels, starting at level 3, then 6 for the poison, then 10 for the aging? It's slower development than the monk, but it fits the flavor, and this class has a few over the tattooed monk....

Powers Known = OUT
d6 > d10 Hit Dice = IN

Manifester Level gained = OUT
High Base Attack Bonus = IN

And I haven't touched the skills yet.... probably the same thing, with more mundane skills replacing existing psionic ones.

Anything way too powerful a replacement? If so, please explain why. I think the flavor is brilliant, just a non-psionic twist on the body-fixers. Remove healing and a clerical sense of helping to replace it with an instinct for self-preservation modifying onesself, and it becomes less of a utility character. Plus it looses out on great manifests, like Iron body, Timeless body, affinity field, etc.... Actually, I think it balances out nicely.
Flamewarrior
05-03-07, 04:32 PM If I read it correctly, it gains full BAB, d10 for hp, and some immunities. Unless I'm wrong about that, even adding AC bonuses will fail to make them balanced; it needs active abilities as the levels pass, and, not being a spellcaster/manifester, those must bring some evolution in tactics.

But, most important, the reason I post this is, weeping with every psionics ban, to point out there's a place for your GM to check it: www.d20srd.org.
Flay Crimsonwind
05-03-07, 08:25 PM Yeah, I'm working on him, but he hasn't really had much time with three weeks of solid testing. I'll get him eventually, but until then......

And don't get me wrong, this isn't meant to replace it (entirely). It's intended as an alternative flavoring of the class; the original inspired me to make a basic type of self-centered defensive monk. So you think it's weak? Alrighty, I'll add +1 unnamed bonus to Defense every two levels, so +5 at level 10.

Active abilities, like 1/day or something Iron body-esque abilities? I could give him a once a day Stoneskin for every three levels of the class. The idea is someone who's both trained and willed their body to withstand ridiculous damage. I was actually worried about it being too powerful with DR 5/- and fast regen with high hitpoints and a good bab, cause I thought it was possibly too powerful for melee charries to resist. Granted, it's only available at lv 8 for full BaB classes. Think I should drop the BaB req to +6?
Flamewarrior
05-03-07, 08:45 PM What the guy gets: DR (level/2)/-, fast healing [(level-3)/2], full BAB, d10, 4 SPs/level, disease/poison/aging immunity, natural AC (unlike the monk, who gets an unnamed bonus; let´s make it [(level+1)/2], to round out the odd levels). I feel that's defense enough; now you should find offensive options for this guy. I'm unfortunately out of ideas right now, but will check somewhen later. Also: lowering the BAB requirement helps, and, if you must include Toughness (a BAD feat), at least require Improved Toughness instead of Great Fortitude; it's less suboptimal than requiring a weak feat, then one redundant with a high-BAB character's almost invariably high base Fortitude.

That all said (with this class becoming its own beast and all), could I still ask for you to show the Hypertext SRD to your GM? I'm already sad enough with not seeing incarnum and blade magic there ...
Flay Crimsonwind
05-03-07, 09:09 PM Yeah, might replace toughness with improved version anyway. Couldn't really think of some obvious "I stand in front of things to tank the damage and take none of it" feats. Yeah, I'll definetly switch out the toughness feats.

So adding the AC bonus (natural? y'sure? okay then) to the list of "in" things, and his defense is pretty tough I suppose (pretty nice with barb and other dr classes/races/templates). So adding offense to him? Well, I get that.... lemme see.....

and I've found a name; the Amaranth. This is a flower, but in greece myth it has a certain relevance to this creation. The name amaranth comes from the Greek a (not) + marainean (to waste away), i.e., a flower that never died, and that was believed to grow on Mount Olympus. Since these guys are seeking impenetrability, this might be an interesting point that they're nearly immortal.

And how breaking would it be to give literal immortality, in that not only do they not suffer the effects of aging, but in fact do not age at a certain level? This can't have too many effects in-game, unless a DM plans a VERY long term campaign where there might be timeskips. An interesting addition, or overpowering.

Once I find some offensive ability, I'll add it to the the list and put it up as a proper chart all pretty-like.

And I very much plan to walk through psionics with him in a few weeks, when we're both free. Cause damn I wanna play one of those so bad!
Flamewarrior
05-03-07, 09:15 PM Ah, when I said you saying "armor bonus", I thought you were making it natural (and it might have worked), but since you were actually willing it to be unnamed, that's indeed the better. I damn like the name; finally, non-aging has one simple problem: players pre-generating PCs past this level might insist on getting mental ability bonuses for free, claiming they aged after getting there.
Flay Crimsonwind
05-03-07, 10:22 PM Well, that may be so, but then wouldn't they have acrued the negative effects up until that point? I thought that's whatthe monk did.

I'm thinking of some sort of physical bonus, like a +x to strength or something. The guy's hardened/trained their bodies to resist damage; should they be given unarmed damage/slam attack progression? Slam might be interesting, as no other class ever uses it, heheheheheh....

--edit-- or a sort of psychofeedback.... like level 5, 1 a day/2 levels psychofeedback, called willfull boost or something.
Flamewarrior
05-04-07, 07:16 PM About aging: there're legendary instances of people dead-seriously insisting their characters (monks, for example) got all their levels (possessed at creation) before taking the first penalty, and then aged - result: all mental bonuses, no physical bonus. Not to mention there are known plane travel-related wacky ways to age years in a round ...

Psychofeedback: is interesting. Another idea I had is making it have hp-fueled abilities (my idea on that was making the class implicitly have per-encounter abilities). By the way, you may like Sanguine Lotus here (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=187901).
Tempest Stormwind
05-04-07, 07:24 PM About aging: there're legendary instances of people dead-seriously insisting their characters (monks, for example) got all their levels (possessed at creation) before taking the first penalty, and then aged - result: all mental bonuses, no physical bonus. Not to mention there are known plane travel-related wacky ways to age years in a round ...Then those people are applying the aging rules incorrectly. REGARDLESS of when the character ages, he applies the same penalties, even if they came after all his levels (so a venerable monk, regardless of his level, has -6 to all physical ability scores and +3 to all mental ability scores).

I'd like to go on record saying that your group is being silly. The rules are in the public domain. If that's too much for you, link them to the New DM/Player's Guide and the FAQ in my sig (the latter links the former and is stickied on the psi forum). Takes all of ten minutes to read through and explains the system to anyone in a nutshell. From there, plop a class or power in his lap and all's well.
Kresalak
05-04-07, 07:28 PM Then those people are applying the aging rules incorrectly. REGARDLESS of when the character ages, he applies the same penalties, even if they came after all his levels (so a venerable monk, regardless of his level, has -6 to all physical ability scores and +3 to all mental ability scores).

plz2readrulz

Upon attaining 17th level, a monk no longer takes penalties to her ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that she has already taken, however, remain in place.
Tempest Stormwind
05-04-07, 07:54 PM plz2readrulz

Ack, so I forget the *least* used of all monk abilities, while at my office and unable to access d20SRD.org or any of my books. It still applies to any class without Timeless Body, though I do agree it's cheesy for classes *with* timeless body.
Flay Crimsonwind
05-05-07, 04:00 AM Thanks for the imput, but an update.

My DM has had more thime than I was led to believe, and has read through psionics in the last few hours; I'm in the okay. So I'm able to use the Sangehirn class as normal.

This doesn't mean I wont be making a more martial-monk class bent on making themselves unkillable; it's been seen in people who can be hit with metal poles and **** and not even get minorly hurt, whilst the pole gets damaged. Basing it off of that; same name, slightly different build. I'll probably post it anew sometime this coming week. Thanks for all of the comments though!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Flay Crimsonwind 05-03-07, 12:19 AM	Alrighty, so I found this class just today, The Sangehirn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625c), and knew that my DM would not grant me use of this class as he doesn't allow psionics yet, as none of us have all the material for him to pick through. So I wanted to see if I could change the class non-psionic, and I came up with an interesting idea. Remove the manifester levels to get better HD and BaB, and remove the caster list to give some other abilities and you'd have an interesting boxer-type class, no? I need a name for it; until then my reworking is keeping the name. Here's what I've modified: Sangehirns have learned that the best way to stay alive in a dangerous world is to know how to heal. They focus their minds on the body and learn how to keep it fit. They see the body as a simple pattern of blood flow, muscle, and bone -- easily repaired. As they advance in levels, this belief manifests itself in their own bodies, causing incredible healing capabilities, invoked by nothing other than their physical will. They, or rather, their bodies, have learned how to heal themselves and further resist damage. As they grow, their natural defenses become ridiculous. With a new ease on life, many of these chaotic beings willing to morph their own body through will and harsh experiences grow fond of combat, as they feel less threatened thanks to their newfound powers. Whilst not evil, they hold less regard for the laws of the universe, as their body is a physical testament to how one can challenge the universe's laws. Hit Die: d10 Requirements To qualify as a sangehirn, a character must meet the following criteria. Alignment: Chaotic any Skill: heal 4 ranks, intimidate 4 ranks Feats: Toughness, Great Fortitude Psionics: Base Attack +8 Healing Focus (Su) = OUT No idea... Need one. Combat Ability? How about slow bonus armor gain, like the monk? = IN Healing Touch (Su) = OUT No idea... actually, in keeping with the developing body of the class, how about a renamed skill like the Tattoed Monk's Crane Tattoo, granting first disease protection, then poison, then aging stops, just like the monk abilities, but separated by levels, starting at level 3, then 6 for the poison, then 10 for the aging? It's slower development than the monk, but it fits the flavor, and this class has a few over the tattooed monk.... Powers Known = OUT d6 > d10 Hit Dice = IN Manifester Level gained = OUT High Base Attack Bonus = IN And I haven't touched the skills yet.... probably the same thing, with more mundane skills replacing existing psionic ones. Anything way too powerful a replacement? If so, please explain why. I think the flavor is brilliant, just a non-psionic twist on the body-fixers. Remove healing and a clerical sense of helping to replace it with an instinct for self-preservation modifying onesself, and it becomes less of a utility character. Plus it looses out on great manifests, like Iron body, Timeless body, affinity field, etc.... Actually, I think it balances out nicely.
Flamewarrior 05-03-07, 04:32 PM	If I read it correctly, it gains full BAB, d10 for hp, and some immunities. Unless I'm wrong about that, even adding AC bonuses will fail to make them balanced; it needs active abilities as the levels pass, and, not being a spellcaster/manifester, those must bring some evolution in tactics. But, most important, the reason I post this is, weeping with every psionics ban, to point out there's a place for your GM to check it: www.d20srd.org.
Flay Crimsonwind 05-03-07, 08:25 PM	Yeah, I'm working on him, but he hasn't really had much time with three weeks of solid testing. I'll get him eventually, but until then...... And don't get me wrong, this isn't meant to replace it (entirely). It's intended as an alternative flavoring of the class; the original inspired me to make a basic type of self-centered defensive monk. So you think it's weak? Alrighty, I'll add +1 unnamed bonus to Defense every two levels, so +5 at level 10. Active abilities, like 1/day or something Iron body-esque abilities? I could give him a once a day Stoneskin for every three levels of the class. The idea is someone who's both trained and willed their body to withstand ridiculous damage. I was actually worried about it being too powerful with DR 5/- and fast regen with high hitpoints and a good bab, cause I thought it was possibly too powerful for melee charries to resist. Granted, it's only available at lv 8 for full BaB classes. Think I should drop the BaB req to +6?
Flamewarrior 05-03-07, 08:45 PM	What the guy gets: DR (level/2)/-, fast healing [(level-3)/2], full BAB, d10, 4 SPs/level, disease/poison/aging immunity, natural AC (unlike the monk, who gets an unnamed bonus; let´s make it [(level+1)/2], to round out the odd levels). I feel that's defense enough; now you should find offensive options for this guy. I'm unfortunately out of ideas right now, but will check somewhen later. Also: lowering the BAB requirement helps, and, if you must include Toughness (a BAD feat), at least require Improved Toughness instead of Great Fortitude; it's less suboptimal than requiring a weak feat, then one redundant with a high-BAB character's almost invariably high base Fortitude. That all said (with this class becoming its own beast and all), could I still ask for you to show the Hypertext SRD to your GM? I'm already sad enough with not seeing incarnum and blade magic there ...
Flay Crimsonwind 05-03-07, 09:09 PM	Yeah, might replace toughness with improved version anyway. Couldn't really think of some obvious "I stand in front of things to tank the damage and take none of it" feats. Yeah, I'll definetly switch out the toughness feats. So adding the AC bonus (natural? y'sure? okay then) to the list of "in" things, and his defense is pretty tough I suppose (pretty nice with barb and other dr classes/races/templates). So adding offense to him? Well, I get that.... lemme see..... and I've found a name; the Amaranth. This is a flower, but in greece myth it has a certain relevance to this creation. The name amaranth comes from the Greek a (not) + marainean (to waste away), i.e., a flower that never died, and that was believed to grow on Mount Olympus. Since these guys are seeking impenetrability, this might be an interesting point that they're nearly immortal. And how breaking would it be to give literal immortality, in that not only do they not suffer the effects of aging, but in fact do not age at a certain level? This can't have too many effects in-game, unless a DM plans a VERY long term campaign where there might be timeskips. An interesting addition, or overpowering. Once I find some offensive ability, I'll add it to the the list and put it up as a proper chart all pretty-like. And I very much plan to walk through psionics with him in a few weeks, when we're both free. Cause damn I wanna play one of those so bad!
Flamewarrior 05-03-07, 09:15 PM	Ah, when I said you saying "armor bonus", I thought you were making it natural (and it might have worked), but since you were actually willing it to be unnamed, that's indeed the better. I damn like the name; finally, non-aging has one simple problem: players pre-generating PCs past this level might insist on getting mental ability bonuses for free, claiming they aged after getting there.
Flay Crimsonwind 05-03-07, 10:22 PM	Well, that may be so, but then wouldn't they have acrued the negative effects up until that point? I thought that's whatthe monk did. I'm thinking of some sort of physical bonus, like a +x to strength or something. The guy's hardened/trained their bodies to resist damage; should they be given unarmed damage/slam attack progression? Slam might be interesting, as no other class ever uses it, heheheheheh.... --edit-- or a sort of psychofeedback.... like level 5, 1 a day/2 levels psychofeedback, called willfull boost or something.
Flamewarrior 05-04-07, 07:16 PM	About aging: there're legendary instances of people dead-seriously insisting their characters (monks, for example) got all their levels (possessed at creation) before taking the first penalty, and then aged - result: all mental bonuses, no physical bonus. Not to mention there are known plane travel-related wacky ways to age years in a round ... Psychofeedback: is interesting. Another idea I had is making it have hp-fueled abilities (my idea on that was making the class implicitly have per-encounter abilities). By the way, you may like Sanguine Lotus here (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=187901).
Tempest Stormwind 05-04-07, 07:24 PM	About aging: there're legendary instances of people dead-seriously insisting their characters (monks, for example) got all their levels (possessed at creation) before taking the first penalty, and then aged - result: all mental bonuses, no physical bonus. Not to mention there are known plane travel-related wacky ways to age years in a round ...Then those people are applying the aging rules incorrectly. REGARDLESS of when the character ages, he applies the same penalties, even if they came after all his levels (so a venerable monk, regardless of his level, has -6 to all physical ability scores and +3 to all mental ability scores). I'd like to go on record saying that your group is being silly. The rules are in the public domain. If that's too much for you, link them to the New DM/Player's Guide and the FAQ in my sig (the latter links the former and is stickied on the psi forum). Takes all of ten minutes to read through and explains the system to anyone in a nutshell. From there, plop a class or power in his lap and all's well.
Kresalak 05-04-07, 07:28 PM	Then those people are applying the aging rules incorrectly. REGARDLESS of when the character ages, he applies the same penalties, even if they came after all his levels (so a venerable monk, regardless of his level, has -6 to all physical ability scores and +3 to all mental ability scores). plz2readrulz Upon attaining 17th level, a monk no longer takes penalties to her ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that she has already taken, however, remain in place.
Tempest Stormwind 05-04-07, 07:54 PM	plz2readrulz Ack, so I forget the least used of all monk abilities, while at my office and unable to access d20SRD.org or any of my books. It still applies to any class without Timeless Body, though I do agree it's cheesy for classes with timeless body.
Flay Crimsonwind 05-05-07, 04:00 AM	Thanks for the imput, but an update. My DM has had more thime than I was led to believe, and has read through psionics in the last few hours; I'm in the okay. So I'm able to use the Sangehirn class as normal. This doesn't mean I wont be making a more martial-monk class bent on making themselves unkillable; it's been seen in people who can be hit with metal poles and **** and not even get minorly hurt, whilst the pole gets damaged. Basing it off of that; same name, slightly different build. I'll probably post it anew sometime this coming week. Thanks for all of the comments though!