Unstoppable Charge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Unstoppable Charge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
b4nth4f3tt
05-30-07, 02:47 PM So for a solo campaign I am doing I am playing a Paladin who will become a Cavalier. So I was looking at the Cavalier abilities and, of course, Unstopable Charge caught my eye. So I was talking with my DM about it and we came upon the eventuality "What if it crits?" I told him I would rule that the multipliers are additive rather than multiplicitive. Therefore an unstoppable charge crit with a lance would deal eight times weapon damage rather than fifteen times. I was wondering if there was a rule on this I had missed or what general opinion is on the subject.
utilitarian
05-30-07, 04:54 PM You've got it right but I think your math is off. Multipliers are additive, but you don't simply add the numbers to gether. Each additional multipler adds it's number minus 1 to the total multipler.

Lance Unstoppable Charge: x5 damage
Lance Crit: x3 damage
Lance Unstoppable Charge Crit: x7 damage

The easiest way to remember that is that adding an extra x2 to a multipler only adds +1 to the total multiplier, which most people know. You just have to remember to continue that line of logic with x3 or x4 multipliers
Kalarus
05-30-07, 07:33 PM Essentially, it simply means that you don't multiply the weapon damage again. Weapondamage meaning here your total of damage done when striking with the weapon, including strength and magic modifiers etc.

Unstoppable charge is x5, which means that you get weapondamage +4x bonus weapondamage (since normally you just get weapondamage).
Critting is x3, which means you get weapondamage +2x bonus weapon damage.

If you were to just add this up, you'd get 2x weapondamage, plus bonus 6x bonus weapondamage from the Unstoppable Charge and crit. That's a bit strange, why'd your regular weapondamage be doubled again if it isn't bonus damage?
b4nth4f3tt
05-31-07, 08:51 AM I understand now. If one was to have x5 multiplier, they would roll their regular weapon damage then roll again four times. If they had a x3 multiplier, they would roll their regular weapon damage then roll again twice. So if both of those multipliers apply, you only roll your regular weapon damage once then again four times and again twice achieving a total of seven damage rolls. Thanks for the help.
Kalarus
05-31-07, 09:33 AM You got it :D. Rather than actually rolling 7x however you might want to go the easy route and just multiply by 7, however using the rules literally, you roll 7x and add everything up.

Enjoy your Cavalier, I've wanted to play one myself but in most of my gaming situations, charging full speed on a horse tends to be problematic :)
Warhaven
05-31-07, 02:17 PM It's a fun PrC to play, especially when out in the open. A bit tricky when dungeon crawling, as is our current scenario.

I'm playing one in a friend's Epic game, 11 paladin / 10 cavalier. Many of the things we've fought so far have had ACs high enough that my paladin/cavalier needed 15+ or 16+ for his first attack to hit, which of course meant no hope for any of his other attacks hitting.

Charging in with my unstoppable charge, I can put all my eggs in one basket at a 13+ (+2 for charge) instead of a 15+ for first attack, then 20s for the rest. It's especially nice with a true strike spell. You're practically guaranteed the equivalent of 5 attacks at your highest attack bonus +20. :D

-W

[edit]
As a point of interest, you may want to consider the Monkey Grip feat and a lance made for large creatures. :)
Kalarus
05-31-07, 04:29 PM As a point of interest, you may want to consider the Monkey Grip feat and a lance made for large creatures. :)

Regular lance: 1d8 damage, average 4.5
Monkey grip for large lance: 2d6 damage, average 7

Damage gain: 2.5 points average.
Loss: -2 to hit.

Power attack feat:
Damage gain: 2 points average.
Loss: -2 to hit.

For a mere 0.5 points of average damage per hit "lost", you can do all that Monkey Grip can do, and more. Got that True Strike spell active? Shunt a lot of it over into Power attack and watch that damage FLY up. Can't charge but have to wield that twohanded weapon? Power attack, now at 150% damage efficiency.

Monkey Grip so is not worth a feat for any size category around Medium. If the damage gain is 1d6 or less, Power Attack is always better.
b4nth4f3tt
06-01-07, 03:56 PM Monkey Grip so is not worth a feat... Power Attack is always better.

I agree. While the idea of wielding an oversized lance is somewhat appealing, the fact that I have to spend so many feats to qualify for the prestige class means that I will have to choose my remaining feats very carefully. I am required by the prestige class to get pretty much every useful mounted feat, so I plan on spending the rest of my feats on solid combat necessities, like power attack and cleave.
utilitarian
06-01-07, 03:58 PM Also: Note that lances can be wielded in one hand while mounted

TWF, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, and any ability to let you do a full (or main and offhand) attack on a charge can equal CRAZY awesome fun.

Nobody expects TWO lances of crazy x7 charging power!
Kalarus
06-01-07, 05:35 PM I don't know if this will help you a bit but it might give some ideas, it was a simple Cavalier concept I drew up on a rainy afternoon. It dips into Fighter first, then sees the light, continues as a Paladin, and takes Cavalier levels asap. He's a LG Human.

Level 1: Fighter 1 (Weapon focus (lance), Power attack, Mounted combat
Level 2: Fighter 2 (Ride-by attack)
Level 3: Paladin 1 Aura of good, detect evil, smite evil 1/day (Spirited Charge)
Level 4: Paladin 2 Divine grace, lay on hands
Level 5: Paladin 3 Aura of courage, divine health
Level 6: Paladin 4 Turn undead (Trample)
Level 7: Paladin 5 Smite evil 2/day, special mount
Level 8: Paladin 6 Remove disease 1/week, Blessed weapon
Level 9: Cavalier 1 Special mount, mounted weapon bonus (lance +1), ride bonus +2, courtly knowledge (Cavalry charger (Tactical feat))
Level 10: Cavalier 2 Deadly charge 1/day, mounted weapon bonus (sword +1)
Level 11: Cavalier 3 Burst of speed
Level 12: Cavalier 4 Deadly charge 2/day, ride bonus +4 (Improved Initiative)
Level 13: Cavalier 5 Mounted weapon bonus (lance +2)
Level 14: Cavalier 6 Deadly charge 3/day, full mounted attack, mounted weapon bonus (Sword +2)
Level 15: Cavalier 7 Ride bonus +6 (Weapon focus (longsword?))
Level 16: Cavalier 8 Deadly charge 4/day
Level 17: Cavalier 9 Mounted weapon bonus (lance +3), ride bonus +8
Level 18: Cavalier 10 Unstoppable charge 5/day, mounted weapon bonus (Sword) +3 (FEAT)
Level 19: Paladin 7
Level 20: Paladin 8

The only problem these days is, you can't overrun anymore as part of a charge (it was errata'd), so some things are a bit outdated in efficiency.

I took a Paladin variant from... erm... I forgot. Complete Warrior maybe. It trades Paladin spellcasting (which can be an issue on a horse) for an automatic Bless Weapon on any weapon you're holding from L6 up.
timthenchanter
06-02-07, 11:03 AM Also: Note that lances can be wielded in one hand while mounted

TWF, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, and any ability to let you do a full (or main and offhand) attack on a charge can equal CRAZY awesome fun.

Nobody expects TWO lances of crazy x7 charging power!

i was thinking the same thing a while back for a 3.0 fighter i made, but i couldnt find any feat or ability to make it possible to do a full attack after a charge. do you know of one?
Kalarus
06-02-07, 02:29 PM Two-weapon pounce from the PHBII should do what you want.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
b4nth4f3tt 05-30-07, 02:47 PM	So for a solo campaign I am doing I am playing a Paladin who will become a Cavalier. So I was looking at the Cavalier abilities and, of course, Unstopable Charge caught my eye. So I was talking with my DM about it and we came upon the eventuality "What if it crits?" I told him I would rule that the multipliers are additive rather than multiplicitive. Therefore an unstoppable charge crit with a lance would deal eight times weapon damage rather than fifteen times. I was wondering if there was a rule on this I had missed or what general opinion is on the subject.
utilitarian 05-30-07, 04:54 PM	You've got it right but I think your math is off. Multipliers are additive, but you don't simply add the numbers to gether. Each additional multipler adds it's number minus 1 to the total multipler. Lance Unstoppable Charge: x5 damage Lance Crit: x3 damage Lance Unstoppable Charge Crit: x7 damage The easiest way to remember that is that adding an extra x2 to a multipler only adds +1 to the total multiplier, which most people know. You just have to remember to continue that line of logic with x3 or x4 multipliers
Kalarus 05-30-07, 07:33 PM	Essentially, it simply means that you don't multiply the weapon damage again. Weapondamage meaning here your total of damage done when striking with the weapon, including strength and magic modifiers etc. Unstoppable charge is x5, which means that you get weapondamage +4x bonus weapondamage (since normally you just get weapondamage). Critting is x3, which means you get weapondamage +2x bonus weapon damage. If you were to just add this up, you'd get 2x weapondamage, plus bonus 6x bonus weapondamage from the Unstoppable Charge and crit. That's a bit strange, why'd your regular weapondamage be doubled again if it isn't bonus damage?
b4nth4f3tt 05-31-07, 08:51 AM	I understand now. If one was to have x5 multiplier, they would roll their regular weapon damage then roll again four times. If they had a x3 multiplier, they would roll their regular weapon damage then roll again twice. So if both of those multipliers apply, you only roll your regular weapon damage once then again four times and again twice achieving a total of seven damage rolls. Thanks for the help.
Kalarus 05-31-07, 09:33 AM	You got it :D. Rather than actually rolling 7x however you might want to go the easy route and just multiply by 7, however using the rules literally, you roll 7x and add everything up. Enjoy your Cavalier, I've wanted to play one myself but in most of my gaming situations, charging full speed on a horse tends to be problematic :)
Warhaven 05-31-07, 02:17 PM	It's a fun PrC to play, especially when out in the open. A bit tricky when dungeon crawling, as is our current scenario. I'm playing one in a friend's Epic game, 11 paladin / 10 cavalier. Many of the things we've fought so far have had ACs high enough that my paladin/cavalier needed 15+ or 16+ for his first attack to hit, which of course meant no hope for any of his other attacks hitting. Charging in with my unstoppable charge, I can put all my eggs in one basket at a 13+ (+2 for charge) instead of a 15+ for first attack, then 20s for the rest. It's especially nice with a true strike spell. You're practically guaranteed the equivalent of 5 attacks at your highest attack bonus +20. :D -W [edit] As a point of interest, you may want to consider the Monkey Grip feat and a lance made for large creatures. :)
Kalarus 05-31-07, 04:29 PM	As a point of interest, you may want to consider the Monkey Grip feat and a lance made for large creatures. :) Regular lance: 1d8 damage, average 4.5 Monkey grip for large lance: 2d6 damage, average 7 Damage gain: 2.5 points average. Loss: -2 to hit. Power attack feat: Damage gain: 2 points average. Loss: -2 to hit. For a mere 0.5 points of average damage per hit "lost", you can do all that Monkey Grip can do, and more. Got that True Strike spell active? Shunt a lot of it over into Power attack and watch that damage FLY up. Can't charge but have to wield that twohanded weapon? Power attack, now at 150% damage efficiency. Monkey Grip so is not worth a feat for any size category around Medium. If the damage gain is 1d6 or less, Power Attack is always better.
b4nth4f3tt 06-01-07, 03:56 PM	Monkey Grip so is not worth a feat... Power Attack is always better. I agree. While the idea of wielding an oversized lance is somewhat appealing, the fact that I have to spend so many feats to qualify for the prestige class means that I will have to choose my remaining feats very carefully. I am required by the prestige class to get pretty much every useful mounted feat, so I plan on spending the rest of my feats on solid combat necessities, like power attack and cleave.
utilitarian 06-01-07, 03:58 PM	Also: Note that lances can be wielded in one hand while mounted TWF, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, and any ability to let you do a full (or main and offhand) attack on a charge can equal CRAZY awesome fun. Nobody expects TWO lances of crazy x7 charging power!
Kalarus 06-01-07, 05:35 PM	I don't know if this will help you a bit but it might give some ideas, it was a simple Cavalier concept I drew up on a rainy afternoon. It dips into Fighter first, then sees the light, continues as a Paladin, and takes Cavalier levels asap. He's a LG Human. Level 1: Fighter 1 (Weapon focus (lance), Power attack, Mounted combat Level 2: Fighter 2 (Ride-by attack) Level 3: Paladin 1 Aura of good, detect evil, smite evil 1/day (Spirited Charge) Level 4: Paladin 2 Divine grace, lay on hands Level 5: Paladin 3 Aura of courage, divine health Level 6: Paladin 4 Turn undead (Trample) Level 7: Paladin 5 Smite evil 2/day, special mount Level 8: Paladin 6 Remove disease 1/week, Blessed weapon Level 9: Cavalier 1 Special mount, mounted weapon bonus (lance +1), ride bonus +2, courtly knowledge (Cavalry charger (Tactical feat)) Level 10: Cavalier 2 Deadly charge 1/day, mounted weapon bonus (sword +1) Level 11: Cavalier 3 Burst of speed Level 12: Cavalier 4 Deadly charge 2/day, ride bonus +4 (Improved Initiative) Level 13: Cavalier 5 Mounted weapon bonus (lance +2) Level 14: Cavalier 6 Deadly charge 3/day, full mounted attack, mounted weapon bonus (Sword +2) Level 15: Cavalier 7 Ride bonus +6 (Weapon focus (longsword?)) Level 16: Cavalier 8 Deadly charge 4/day Level 17: Cavalier 9 Mounted weapon bonus (lance +3), ride bonus +8 Level 18: Cavalier 10 Unstoppable charge 5/day, mounted weapon bonus (Sword) +3 (FEAT) Level 19: Paladin 7 Level 20: Paladin 8 The only problem these days is, you can't overrun anymore as part of a charge (it was errata'd), so some things are a bit outdated in efficiency. I took a Paladin variant from... erm... I forgot. Complete Warrior maybe. It trades Paladin spellcasting (which can be an issue on a horse) for an automatic Bless Weapon on any weapon you're holding from L6 up.
timthenchanter 06-02-07, 11:03 AM	Also: Note that lances can be wielded in one hand while mounted TWF, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, and any ability to let you do a full (or main and offhand) attack on a charge can equal CRAZY awesome fun. Nobody expects TWO lances of crazy x7 charging power! i was thinking the same thing a while back for a 3.0 fighter i made, but i couldnt find any feat or ability to make it possible to do a full attack after a charge. do you know of one?
Kalarus 06-02-07, 02:29 PM	Two-weapon pounce from the PHBII should do what you want.